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  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Not to mention that they are very very very expensive to replace and maintain!!
  • kartezkartez Member Posts: 48

    While on the VW subject, we may as well stop talking about the passat 3.6 as vw as dropped it.


    Not sure where you get this info from :confuse: . VW website still lists the 3.6.
  • kartezkartez Member Posts: 48
    Grad,

    I generally read the messages on this board but don't post. I couldn't really resist replying to this one though.


    Still, if I'm having to choose between a Ford and a VW, I'd actually take the Ford.


    Would you really go from a Honda to a Ford? That's quite a jump there going from a brand that makes great engines to another that is at least a generation behind the rest of the industry. And Ford is nowhere close to VW in terms of engine technology either. Reliability wise, Ford is only slightly better than VW and that is only if you consider North America. Ford and VW are pretty much on par reliability/sales wise everywhere else in the world.

    BTW, I've had my B5 Passat for nearly the same amount of time as my friend who owns a 99 Accord. We've compared the costs of maintenance and the Passat has cost me about 350 more (mainly due to the dealership). Our fuel costs are more are less the same since the VW gets better mileage than the Honda both in city and on the highway. My friend says he would not buy a VW for exactly the same reasons you gave in spite of my experience ;) . He concedes a couple of things without hesitation though - after nearly a decade, his car feels and looks like a Grand Am and that his car has always drove and handled like an old person's car.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Fusion reliability is best in class - equal with Honda and Toyota - and way ahead of anything VW has in the segment. And they're catching up with the engine technology - the new 2.5L I4 has competitive power with best in class fuel economy.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I find it mind boggling that many sources give the Ford Fusion a top reliability rating with the Mazda6 (identical engines) an average mark. To top it off, the 4 cyl engine was designed by Mazda as is the platform the Fusion rides on! WTF!?!?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I believe Mazda and Ford build their engines separately (definitely true for the V6) and while they share a basic platform they are not clones or rebadges by any stretch of the imagination. They also use different dealers and have a different customer base. Not mind boggling at all.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Would you really go from a Honda to a Ford? That's quite a jump there going from a brand that makes great engines to another that is at least a generation behind the rest of the industry.

    My folks have already made the leap. Their new Taurus is a fantastic buy; 3.5L 263 hp, 18/28 highway on regular fuel(pretty good for the power and large amount of room it has). This 3.5L was on Ward's 10 Best Engines List, I believe, so it can't be lagging behind the industry TOO bad. ;) Add in Sync Media Controller as a low-cost option, and you have quite a nice, competitive car in the low $20ks.

    Honda's customer service isn't what it used to be, and Ford's quality isn't what it used to be either (thank goodness).

    He concedes a couple of things without hesitation though - after nearly a decade, his car feels and looks like a Grand Am and that his car has always drove and handled like an old person's car.

    Old person's car? No, that'd be a Camry. I have a '96 and an '06 Accord, and another relative drives an '02 Accord. All three are a hoot to drive, but my favorite is still my old one, which now has 183,000 miles on it. It handles very nicely for this 20 year old car enthusiast. It's not quick, but quick doesn't equal fun. Fun does. :blush:

    As far as looking like a Grand Am, I'm really not sure where this comment comes from. The rather vanilla styling that Honda put forth is a LOT less dated than Pontiacs from the same era, and no more dated than VW. Generally, more conservative designs (like the Honda and VW pictured) wear better over time.

    image
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  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    For 03-08, the I4 engines are both built in Mexico, and the 3.0L V6's are also built in the same plant. If you are talking about the 09 Mazda6 3.7L, that is built in Japan.

    I know that a platform has nothing to do with reliability, and they are not clones but, I find it very hard to believe that there is really a big difference between reliability ratings. If you look at CR, the Mazda6 4 cyl has never had anything but great remarks.

    I do know that since Mazda has a much younger customer base, that may have an influence on perceived reliability since younger people tend to have less toleration for any potential glitches. Also, they tend to drive their cars harder.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Hey grad-

    If you would consider the 2010 Fusion, would you consider the 2nd gen Mazda6?

    I agree with you about the Taurus, it really is one hell of a car for what you pay. I just can't get past the styling...
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Hey grad-

    If you would consider the 2010 Fusion, would you consider the 2nd gen Mazda6?

    Definitely, and I should've mentioned it in my post. Mazda's characteristically low gearing hurts fuel mileage though, so the Ford might suit me a little better (I'm loving averaging 37-38 MPG on trips in my Accord right now). Of course, if I treat the Mazda the same way as I treat my Accord on those trips, I'm liable to see numbers well above EPA also. :) I do like the new Mazda 6 design a LOT; better than most all the other entires out there for sure.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I tell you what, I had the opportunity to sit in a 09 Sonata yesterday. It looks just like my moms Lexus RX330. I did not get to drive one though.

    About the FE in the Mazda6. I would suspect you should be able to get 32-33 possibly driving conservative. I just got 32mpg's on a trip to Maine this weekend going 70-75 with the a/c on with my car full of luggage and my pregnant wife in my 05 4 cyl.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I think you're right about the I4s being built in Mexico but the 3.0L V6s are/were built in Cleveland OH. I still think Mazda uses their own heads and engine controls even if the rest of the engines are the same. Not sure about the new 2.5L.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    A Lexus is about the same to repair as a BMW if not more.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Don't know why you are telling me that, however, my moms Lexus has never been to the shop and her previous X5 was a frequent visitor. Thank God it was a lease and she gladly returned it.

    All luxury cars are expensive to repair, mainly because of the computer systems and silly labor charges that these high line dealers charge. The mechanical parts are really no more expensive then Toyota parts.
  • iwantoneiwantone Member Posts: 52
    Who has the better reliability rating or history honda or nissan? I have always been a honda accord owner and I am leaning that way again.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Honda has the better history, but the competition has gotten better across the board and Honda has had a few problems (specifically transmissions). There's no reason not to buy another Accord if you like them, but if you're open to other vehicles reliability would not be a reason to avoid the competition, although Kia and VW might be on the bubble.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Relative to this discussion, the Optima is rated "above average" by CR for predicted reliability. It shares its I4 powertrain with the Sonata, which is rated even higher for reliability by CR. Passat is unfortunately well below average in CR's predicted reliability.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You are a lucky one. Lexus does break down, so do all brands. It's true the X5 at one point did have problems, but so did the first year Lexus LX something or other, it was a nightmare.

    bdkinnh, "BMW 5-Series Sedans" #11855, 6 Jun 2007 10:08 am
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You can play the odds. Any car can become an owners nightmare. Don't go by the surveys. Buy the car on how much you will like driving it in 3 or 4 years.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    You are dead on there! Every car company has had or continues to have issues at come point in some of their cars. My moms RX330 is a 2004, and has been great. The one complaint she does have is that the fuel economy stinks. I think she gets 20-21 highway.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Honda does have a long term better track record as a company. The competition has been catching up. There are many here that have had little to no issues with the following: Hyundai Sonata, Ford Fusion, Nissan Altima, Toyota Camry, Mazda6, Honda Accord, and Kia Optima. If I do recall, there seems to be happy people with the Malibu/Aura too, however, they have not been on the market too long to asses long term. The only car I would avoid, and this is just my opinion, is the VW Passat.

    My suggestion in drive the ones you are interested in and see how you like them. If it's between the Accord and Altima, they are both great cars. You should buy which ever one you think suits you best.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The only car I would avoid, and this is just my opinion, is the VW Passat.

    Trust me buddy, it's not just your opinion. :)

    If it is, I second that!
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Trust me buddy, it's not just your opinion.

    If it is, I second that!

    All in favor?

    *raises hand* "Aye!" :)
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    My question is: If so many people feel that VW is so terrible why do all the testers/reviews praise them for initial quality, great interiors, nice styling, decent to great handling, excellent safety, decent mpg, etc and the fact that they seem to hold their resale value so good???

    Is it just that one might pay an $100 or so extra per year in routine maint and a couple of more repairs over a long period? Or is it just people jumping on the bandwagon with no real knowledge of the brand? VW seems to have improved their quality quite a bit over the last few years, much like GM and Ford has. I would venture a bet that most of the people that bad mouth them have never even driven one let alone owned one. I have owned three in my lifetime and had good and bad luck with them but enjoyed every one.

    I guess if all you're looking for in a car is the absolute least repair cost or fewest trips to the dealer than you should probably avoid VW. But I personally don't think it is as bad as people like to make out . Maybe it just feels good to bash a brand....I don't know.

    I can remember a time when Hondas and Toyotas were the laughing stock of the auto world here in the US. They were nothing but tin can rust buckets that couldn't even idle if the A/C was on and were knocked out of alignment every time you brushed a curb. This bashing continued by the uninformed until well after they both had improved their product tremendously.

    Just my two cents.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Or is it just people jumping on the bandwagon with no real knowledge of the brand?

    Well, not a whole LOT of people jumping on the bandwagon based on sales figures. The Passat is relegated to niche status in this mid-sized sedan market due to its relatively high price compared to most competitors. It seems not too many people are willing to pay the premium for what the Passat offers. When you consider what most buyers are looking for in this class of car, "reliability", "passenger room and comfort", and "fuel economy" win out over "crisp handling" and "turbo power".
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The real problem with VW and Audi and BMW in terms or reliability is that they all source their electrical and electronics components as well as switches and so on from the same German companies. So stuff breaks and falls apart a lot, despite the actual major mechanical parts of the car being fine

    Funny thing is the most significant problem we happen to have had with our VW was related to the Japanese sourced automatic transmission which had valve body replaced at 10K mi.

    Ford and VW are pretty much on par reliability/sales wise everywhere else in the world.

    I wonder if much of the VW reliability problem in the US has been caused by poor maintenance practices here compared to elsewhere as my understanding is, as you imply, that VW is not percieved to have a reliability problem in Europe. The other factor that may come into play is that VW is, I believe, much more a young people's car in the US compared to Europe. Many young people are harder on their cars than older people and many of them also do not properly maintain them.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Well, not a whole LOT of people jumping on the bandwagon based on sales figures.

    Correct but I don't think many of the "sales" you mention are represented in the posters you see here.

    Something I've found kind of interesting too is that when you see people posting that they are considering different cars it always seems that the Jetta is the one they are classing in with the other midsizers and not the Passat. It's probably because the Jetta seems to fit the segment so well as far as base HP, MPG and price goes.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Is it just that one might pay an $100 or so extra per year in routine maint and a couple of more repairs over a long period?

    I think, on average, that is the reality. However the perception is that there is a wide gap in reliability and repair/maintenance costs. According to Edmunds the Passat has average repair and maintenance costs of $5361 over 5 years and 75,000 miles. The Accord and Camry come in at $4181 and $4936 respectively.

    (Note that the Jetta 2.5, which is not a midsize but was, I think, the car that VW designed to be reliable in the US, comes in at $4621.)

    OTOH, my kid does have a 1996 Jetta, purchased used, and it has had an amazing amount of problems in his one year of ownership.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Do the math. The number of Passat buyers represented here SHOULD be relatively small. Just as we don't hear much from Galant buyers or Optima buyers.

    Those Jetta buyers you mention are people who are looking for a car at a particular price point vs. looking for a mid-sized sedan.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I just got off the phone with my brother, and I asked him about his GTI. He had a radiator hose failure (all the coolant was all over his driveway), constant problems with the power window system, interior finish pealed (mostly window switches and lock switches), the brake lights were always off kilter. One would always be way too bright, and the other barely lit at all. Numerous CEL's due to O2 sensors, gas cap and other emissions equipment. There was nothing really with the actual drive train. Mostly electrical problems. Anyway, after countless trips to VW service, and being blamed for most of the problems, he decided to never again buy a VW.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Do the math. The number of Passat buyers represented here SHOULD be relatively small. Just as we don't hear much from Galant buyers or Optima buyers.

    I don't know, we don't hear much from buyers of the Camry either and it is the biggest selling car. Meanwhile Mazda6 buyers (such as myself) seem to me to be over represented.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Dont doubt a word of it. What year is it? They admittedly had a ton of problems throughtout the 90s and early into the 2000s. My contention is if the majority of VW purchasers had those kind of problems they would trade it and never buy one again. Is VW the 3rd or 4th largest car company in the world with nothing but first time buyers???
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Mazda6 buyers (such as myself) seem to me to be over represented.

    We're just so passionate about our vehicles..don't ya know!! ;)
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Hey! What if one represents TWO vehicles (Mazda 6, Altima 2.5S)? :confuse:
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    They are just so confused they have no business being here! :D
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    They must be doing something right.

    WOLFSBURG - August 21, 2008: The Volkswagen brand delivered 2.21 million vehicles worldwide (+4.7 percent) in the first seven months of this year, setting a new record for this period.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    It was either a 01 or 02. I can't remember.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    VW of America as of July 07 has 135,966 total units sold. The tinny tiny company called Mazda has sold 175,559 during that same time in the U.S.

    Something obviously is not right about VW over here....If the 4th largest company in Japan can out sell the 4th largest automaker in the world in the large American market there is obviously a reason for that.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I know it's not midsized but thought you'd all be interested anyway....especially you Backy. Over on Autoblog.com they have a bunch of pictures of the new Kia Forte which is going to be the Spectra replacement. The interior pictures(if this is what the US will get) are really very, very nice. Bluetooth, nice ipod integration, etc. Don't show much of the exterior though. Just thought inquiring minds would want to know. :D
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    But is there not also a reason that they are #4 in the world?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    So can I take that to mean that VW outsells Mazda in every country in the world except the US and Japan??
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The issue the the German makers have with reliability is based upon the fact that nearly all reliability ratings from actual consumers comes from the cars on their 2nd and 3rd owners.

    ie - you never hear about problems in the first few years for most makes. It's the second-hand market where all the gremlins show up as the car reaches towards ten years or older. And it's the things like dead power windows and radios and your rear defroster not working because of some relay that get people's attention. Far more than mechanical issues like CV joints and the like. They know stuff wears out, but a bad CV joint on a 8-10 year old car is almost expected. Your window not working... even though that's a fairly minor thing, it creates a dozen times more angst.

    The German companies make very poor quality switches and electrical parts compared to the sources that they use in Japanese vehicles.(ie - expect a Denzo injector in a Tacoma to last easily twice as long as the Bosch equivalent, and don't get me started on shocks or spark plugs). Part of that until very recently was because there were huge economic reasons for getting all of your parts from your own country(actually huge DIS incentives if you didn't). Now, thankfully, it's easier, but a lot of the agreements and old suppliers are still in place.

    Note - some companies, like Citroen have taken full advantage of it, though, and having been freed of the French suppliers, are now sourcing components from all over the EU. And the cars are actually worlds better than before.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    nearly all reliability ratings from actual consumers comes from the cars on their 2nd and 3rd owners

    Is this true?? It doesn't seem to make sense to me. I have owned over 35 different cars and I would say 25 of them were used when I bought them. Never been surveyed. Obviously, I am not a very large sample :D but I thought just about all the surveys were done in the first few years of ownership.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The issue the the German makers have with reliability is based upon the fact that nearly all reliability ratings from actual consumers comes from the cars on their 2nd and 3rd owners.

    This would be consumer reports.

    The German companies make very poor quality switches and electrical parts compared to the sources that they use in Japanese vehicles.(ie - expect a Denzo injector in a Tacoma to last easily twice as long as the Bosch equivalent, and don't get me started on shocks or spark plugs).

    A generalization is never true. It may be some suppliers have quality issues, but I expect a Bosch to last as longer or longer than Denzo. And, let's talk about the plugs, if you can give a specific example that holds true over a long period of time.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Thanks. I posted those (or similar) over at the Kia Forte discussion a few days ago. Looks like a Kia-ized Elantra to me. :)
  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    "The number of Passat buyers represented here SHOULD be relatively small. Just as we don't hear much from Galant buyers or Optima buyers. "

    Galant owner here. I read the forums a lot but rarely have occasion to comment. My '99 has been solid & reliable; easily the best car I've ever bought. I don't care for the body style on the current Galant so it's not on my short-list should the need for a replacement arise before it is redisgned. But I've no problem recommending the brand based on my experience.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Holy Mackeral! A Galant owner! Welcome.
  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    Thanks for the welcome although I've been a member since 2001. :)
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    Something obviously is not right about VW over here....If the 4th largest company in Japan can out sell the 4th largest automaker in the world in the large American market there is obviously a reason for that.

    It appears that VW has the #1 spot for cars that hold their original value after the first 5 years. It was interesting to see that the only two American-made cars in the top 10 were from Dodge and Jeep - two of Chrysler's divisions that many people here like to bash.

    10 best, 10 worst for holding original value
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    C'mon tedebear, while those figures are probably true, nearly every single vehicle on the best list is a specialty vehicle and sell in very low numbers. Sometimes it's hard to prove a point with extremes.

    For example, the Jeep Wrangler is way overpriced for what you get but has a fanatical "young, outdoorsman" image that appeals to younger people. They can't afford a new one so the demand for used ones stays high.

    The Viper, well that's such a low volume specialty car that I'm sure you wouldn't use that as an example for "how Chrysler cars depreciate".

    Ford really doesn't market a specialty vehicle like these but GM does have the Corvette and that didn't make the list.....so I have to give Chrysler some credit.

    However, you're right that VW (Jettas especially) does rank pretty high on resale values as a rule but I'm not sure exactly where.
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