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Comments
I almost traded our 2002 Impreza for a Legacy 2.5i, but, my wife did not like it that much. She prefers an Outback. I'm glad she did not go with the Legacy because the rear is no bigger then the Impreza, and the trunk is very small. With a new born baby in the house, the Legacy sedan just does not suit our needs. We are holding out until I can rob a pre-owned Outback at the auction!
I also feel Camry's suspension too soft, but it's not right if you take it out of consideration. It's been #1 seller for years for some reason. You should try testing all and read all the bad reviews to find out what you like and dislike. Yes, I found bad reviews are more useful to avoid a car that you won't like. I have owned many different cars and currently have bmw and toyota for their best value in different way.
If you want a sportier sedan, buy an Accord, Altima, Mazda6, etc. If you want a car that soaks up road imperfections and transmits nothing to the driver, get a Sonata or a Camry. Unfortunately, the Camry SE doesn't belong in either of these categories.
I think what you are trying to say is that there is more than just shocks and springs to make a sport sedan. I agree with that, but I do think its a good start. Having a suspension that makes the car feel responsive (in addition to good steering feedback and tires that communicate road feel to the driver) are a big part of a "sport sedan."
I think for most, the Legacy would be considered "too" sporty (the ride is very responsive, but you do feel more of the road), but I enjoy that car. I think my '07 Accord still has pretty masked steering, sorry tires, and is higher than the Subaru, so I don't see a whole lot of sport in that. I am hoping that shocks/springs/bars will change that a bit.
The Legacy was considered by my wife as a replacement for her Impreza, however, the rear seat room is not much bigger and the trunk room is nearly the same as the Impreza. She really wants an Outback, so, when I can find a good deal at the auction, I will grab one.
I have a relatively new (2006.5) KIa Optima EX and it is not considered "sporty" yet it makes turns well, brakes well and is reasonably comfortable.At the same times it retails well under $25K with leather and with all the options that are available(except for a spoiler). It has a 4 cyl engine, and is easy to drive.What more could a person want?
It has a 4 cyl engine, and is easy to drive.What more could a person want?
It sounds like you'd enjoy a car made by Toyota... or Broyhill.
How about a little bit of fun? The ability to take a twisty road and not have wishy-washy body motions to squelch the fun. Having steering that is well-weighted with some road feel to get an idea of what the car is actually doing.
Some people just want to get where they're going comfortably. Others want to get there comfortably, but actually enjoy the driving experience. I'm not knocking people who don't care about sportiness, because obviously, the Camry sells in droves and its mainstream models (LE, XLE) don't have a sporty bone in their unibody. That works for a lot of people; it's like driving... only decaf.
As for me, I like comfort and practicality, while at least having the ability to zip around town or down the river-road (twisty, 40-50 MPH with a speed limit that is probably set a little high at 45 MPH; lots of tight turns with 25MPH yellow "caution" signs on the curves. When I take that road, I know I can take the corner and the suspension and steering won't play dead.
I'm not a dangerous driver, as my spotless driving record and high gas mileage speaks for itself. I do appreciate a car with some athleticism though, even if it doubles as a carpool vehicle during the week.
You can get economy, value AND sportiness in a few vehicles out there. Altima and Mazda6 come to mind. For many, a car that drives like my grandmothers Buick is a waste of money.
I have a 2005 Mazda6 4cyl mtx with 45,000 miles. It has handling compared to a BMW 3 series, best in class brake performance, reliable, good fuel economy (not class leading, but good enough for me), classic styling (IMO) and still turns heads when I'm driving. I bought it with a Bose Audio system, leather/heated seats, moon roof. I bought is for just over $20,000. That is tremendous value. For me, that is what I want. In my case, this is far superior to a Kia Optima. I'm not saying the Kia Optima is not a bad car, it's just the wrong car for me.
Exactly. This is why I find a base Fusion sportier than a base Mustang. It responds better to the touch, it communicates better with me, so I know in advance what the car will do when I apply brakes and steering simultaneously. Plus, I can see out of it, which means I can drive more alertly and can extract the car's best from it (either recreationally or in an emergency) without having to wonder where the corners are.
Excepting that the Subaru Legacy wagon beat the Mazda6 in the slalom...so perhaps its not that bad handling of a wagon. Are you talking about the Outback or perhaps individual differences?
With a price tag of 20k for the 2.5i wagon and the bevy of safety, comfort and convenience items, the Subaru made a lot of sense for us. I also have liked the 2700 lbs of towing capacity when I have needed to bring home furniture or got carried away with a home improvement project.
I have also found the AWD to be particularly helpful in inclement weather. Experience in snow, mud and rain has been very favorable. I have also found the fuel economy to be reasonable; I have been tracking my FE on "gas buddy" for the last 8k or so.
Yeah!...putting a wing on the back (especially for cars that have FWD) is what does it
The only thing I like about her car is the winter driving ability. Other then that, it sucks. It has had so many problems (head gasket blown at 50K, replaced faulty fuel lines at 58K, hard shifting 2nd gear that is still not rectified, replaced heat shield, cracked intake manifold, 3 O2 sensors) interior trim pieces broken (cup holder above radio, arm rest). It gets an average of 20-22mpg. Currently, it has just over 70K on it.
If you look at Consumer Reports, any Subaru's 2004 and older are a disaster. Black circles for engine major, engine minor, transmission major and transmission minor. I know there are many that absolutely love their Subi's, but for as many great stories, I have heard many horror stories of which I add mine too and my Subaru service department attests too. The newer ones seem to be much better.
I like the Altima because it communicates to me what I'm driving on and tells me very clearly what the limits of the car are. It gives you a since of confidence on the road so that you're alert and able to keep your mind on the drive. It also means that you can throw the car into corners fairly easily as well, and you never lose confidence of what the car's limits are. I remember driving an '05 Camry a couple years ago, and I really liked it. However, I also remember that I didn't feel a connection to the road, so I found myself slowing down more at the turns because I was never quite sure when the car was going to lose grip and slide.
The Camry has its niche. It's for people that don't want to know what they're driving on. They would prefer to feel like they're riding on a cloud than to know what they're riding on. People that would purchase a Camry LE usually believe that hearing and feeling the road is a sign of "imperfection" in the car, where as people that would purchase an Altima or Mazda6 believe that if they don't know what they're driving on, they are not fully in control of the car.
The Accord and Malibu seem to strike a good balance between "sportiness" and "comfortable", which is great. But after experiencing "comfortable" in my Toyota Solara for several years, I can honestly say that I'd rather feel more in control of a car than just along for the ride. It makes life more exciting. :shades:
From Temple of Vtec's Report on the Paris Auto Show:
As well as a 5-speed manual gearbox, the 1.4-litre engine can be teamed up with Honda's latest i-SHIFT transmission, first introduced in the Civic range. The first time a 6-speed automated manual transmission has been offered in this vehicle class, the gearbox offers better fuel economy than is possible with either a true automatic or a CVT (continuously variable transmission). The unit is a development of the system first fitted to the Civic, with improvements made including; reduced gear change times, smoother shifts and more intelligent automatic mode shift logic.
As akirby mentioned the MKZ will be freshened inside and out for 2010 and it's supposed to hit showrooms in December or January last I heard. Same goes for the Fusion and Milan. All 3 will have interiors very similar to the Flex, at least the center stack anyway, and what I would call sportier looking exteriors.
I agree with you on all of your other points except for the used Speed6. I did look at those a couple of years ago when I bought my Mustang and I don't see how the Summer tires it came with would work at all in the snow even with AWD. A lot of Speed6 forum members felt the same way and recommend snow tires for those in the winter. You could put all seasons on it I guess, but then you lose some of the handling.
Baggs32: Yes, the Speed6 would need a winter tire combination. The original tires are summer treads.
I think these cars are above the average mid-size sedan too. :confuse: And from what I've read, the TL-S sounds better than all of them.
you beat me to it!. The Sonata is a great buy, especially for what mary236 is looking for.
I thought about a 2006 or 2007 Sonata, it does not have the best IIHS ratings in side impact crashes (only average, instead of good, like the Fusion), but it would cost less.
How accurate are the IIHS ratings, does anyone know? Are cars with higher ratings really a lot safer?
In the end you have to do what you think is right because you're the one who has to live with the decision.
But... no manual tranny and no hatchback which my current 6 has and which I love. Thing is, I really like my current 6, but I've been getting the sense that a new, less edgy car is in order for my life now. If they had a hatch, I'd have a new car in my driveway now, but they don't. My mom just bought a car in this class a month or two ago (before the new 6 was out) and we drove many cars. I drove the Accord, Altima, Azera, Sonata, Camry (yuck!), and an 08 Maxima (the car my mom ended up getting). The 09 mazda6 is the winner in my eyes ... the Maxima comes in a close 2nd, but I prefer the 6. Besides, I'm not going to get the same car as my mom!
Anyways... I'm amazed I'm even considering this. Went in for an oil change and almost bought a car.... What do you think?
Actually, my parents car was stolen in a Detroit mall parking lot and they got a new one from insurance. So I guess dirty oil is a good excuse too!
The salesperson went to find the specific model on the lot, so I wasn’t able to start it myself, but it sure was whisper-quiet when it pulled up. I didn’t even notice it until I turned to see it right in front of me. This is my first exposure to the cloth/leather seats, and I like them. I’m still not used to the gray steering wheel in a black interior, but the wheel itself fell easily to hand, and the rim thickness was luckily retained from the first-gen car. The steering-wheel controls will take a little getting used to, but they’re easily reached without removing my hands from the 9 and 3 position, something I can’t say about the ’07 Altima 2.5S that my wife drives.
Other comparisons: The interior as a whole is a vast improvement over just about anything else I’ve driven, let alone in this class. The orange-and-blue gauges are easy to read, and all other controls are logically placed and intuitive. An excellent compromise between the stark, minimum-controlled dash of the Altima, and the 58 different buttons scattered on the Accord’s dash.
My father-in-law and brother-in-law were with me, so the four of us piled into the car (yes, all four of us, more on that later). The in–laws in the back seat both were impressed with the room, easily getting comfortable, unlike my ’04 6, which my father-in-law never has enough legroom.
And we’re off. Acceleration was smooth, without any hesitation or hiccup. The V6 definitely has more HP and torque compared to the 3.0L, even with the automatic and four adults, the power was effortless, and getting up to speed was easy even with only a slight amount of pedal travel. Maneuvering around the auto mall complex was a breeze, and the shorter turning-circle was VERY evident (and welcome!)
Driving on suburban roads, the steering wheel felt nicely weighted, with plenty of feedback. Unlike others, I didn’t sense any on-center dead spot, it felt tight from lock to lock, similar to my ’04. Brakes were excellent (as with every Mazda I’ve driven), and offered nice feedback.
After four to five blocks, the salesperson guided me back to the dealer, not allowing me to take it onto the Northway, saying that he had “an appointment” and we didn’t have enough time. No, I wasn’t happy, and I remembered why my in-laws never bought a car from New Country.
It was nice, but I wanted more, and I got it.
Yesterday, I went to the local dealer (Burdick), and tested both a 6I GT and 6S GT, back to back, without any salesperson! I drove both cars through the same 16 mile route, with highway and backroads sprinkled in with the city streets.
The 4-cylinder was a decent engine, with good power, and a vast improvement over the 2.3L with auto. Steering and brakes felt similar to the Touring, but there’s still an obvious difference between the 4-cylinder and V6 in terms of handling and control. Cutting apexes was still easy, but I did feel more body roll than my ’04 with V6.
The S GT was a whole different experience from the I GT. The V6 was quiet and docile around town, but it moved when you wanted it to, with a nice, throaty growl. Passing on the highway was effortless, even with the slushbox, and I was easily the first car from a red light, without even trying. Chirping the tires was easy, but I didn’t feel any torque steer at any time, not bad for 272 HP and 269 lb-ft. of torque. The added weight became apparent on the backroads, with more body roll than the 4-cylinder. A LOT of the blame goes to the miserable Michelins that Mazda AGAIN saddles us with. Even the 18” tires squealed early and often, and rode loudly on certain surfaces.
Final impression: The power from the V6 is immense and easy to control. Steering and braking is still excellent, better than any Accord or Altima could even dream of. I’ll admit that the handling isn’t as good as the first-gen, which I’m not very thrilled about, but a better set of tires would go a long way (but not all the way) to fix that. Although it’s no BMW, it still feels more involving than an Accord or Altima, and the HUGE improvements in both the drivetrains and interior are very appreciated.
look at a jetta or a subaru legacy/outback
New options include blind spot detection, rear-view camera and a new Sony audio system (presumably to replace the old audiophile system).
I'm interested in seeing the new Fusion.
This proves to me that Ford selling their stake in Mazda is a dumb idea....
For the latter they can both thank Volvo. But since they own them they can thank themselves. :P
I don't think one can necessarily "thank" the other - they share a lot of technology both ways.
Although I guess Mazda could thank Ford for the Tribute since it is just a rebadge.
I know they share technology....lot's of it....however, the Fusion has a lot more Mazda influence then Ford....
Oh, about Ford owning Mazda.....might not be fore long....latest rumor is they will sell up to 20%....
Ford doesn't "own" Mazda anyway - only 33%. I don't foresee any changes in the working relationship either way.
There continues to be talks about Ford selling their shares, again, I think it's dumb.....even if a sale were to take place, the integration and sharing of technology will continue for years.
The B-series is a rebadge, and the name is a carry over from when Mazda actually imported their own pick-up to North America. The rest of the world still gets a true Mazda pick-up. Mazda sells about 1,000 copies of the B-series per year. I have no idea why the continue to offer it :confuse:
The Navajo was also a rebadged 1st gen Explorer, but, I think we all knew that.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that. However without Ford's deep pockets, Mazda might not exist right now and certainly none of those better ideas would ever have been funded.
I don't see them sharing platforms in the future if the sale happens. I do see them sharing engineering notes though. For example, no more Tribute (re-badge), but a Mazda6 based mid-sized CUV/SUV, read Edge, would be likely. Even the engines could be workable too. Mazda basically takes a solid Ford block and smooths it out. I can't see any reason that would stop post-sale.
I could be totally wrong so take that with a grain of salt.
Mazda was certainly in some serious financial difficullty in the 70s I guess, and also was a rather innovation and independent company both of which were severely limited when Ford takes control and starts 'sharing' what it wants and discarding what it doesn't.
Some semi-interesting reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda
It would have been much better for Ford to have done what Renault, for example, did with Nissan a few years later - Nissan didn't lose its identity like Mazda did and has.