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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    suspension tuning does not change the color of the spots on the leopard IMO. I will grant you that the cars are a different drive - to Mazda's credit some of that 'driver's car' image endures.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Tuesday means Mazda chat night! Mazda ownership is not a requirement! :) Just bring yourself and your love of cars and the desire to discuss anything and everything automotive and you're good to go!

    The chat opens at 8:45 pm ET and runs until 10 pm ET. I hope you're able to join us tonight to meet and greet with your fellow CarSpace members!
    See you there!
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Looks like they'll be offering base, SE and SEL trims with the 2.5L I4 for the FWD models and improved 3.0L V6 (240 hp) for the AWD models. A new Sport model will be offered in both FWD and AWD trim with the 3.5L V6 (265 hp). . .All models get 6 speed transmissions now including the manual (probably still only available on the I4).

    This is encouraging news. I think I'd be most likely to go for a 2.5/manual combo myself, but having more choices is always a good thing in my book.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,305
    i think ford has tried to leverage what mazda has that will work for them, but has kept them somewhat seperate.
    ever see a ford mx-5? a ford rotary?
    the basic 2.3 was shared, but mazda had more power and hooked up to a 5 speed auto. focus 2.3 has 4 speed auto.
    3.0 duratec in mazda is tuned for premium, fusion is tuned for regular fuel.
    fusion did get a 6 speed auto.
    just some examples.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    3.0 duratec in mazda is tuned for premium, fusion is tuned for regular fuel.

    Incorrect. Mazda 3.0L is tuned for regular fuel. The NA 2.3L, and the new 2.5L and 3.7L in the '09 models are tuned for regular as well.

    The turbo-4 in the MazdaSpeed 6 is tuned for premium.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    the basic 2.3 was shared, but mazda had more power and hooked up to a 5 speed auto

    The Fusion and 6 (the vehicles on topic here) had identical powertrains, didn't they (until this year)?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    3.0L Ford design + built, and Mazda contributed VV-T. Identical in both 03-08 Mazda6 and Fusion
    2.3L Mazda design, both Ford and Mazda built. Again, identical in 03-08 Mazda6 and Fusion

    Basic platforms are the same too. Every other component is different. They do not share transmissions either.

    2009 Mazda6:

    2.5L Mazda fully developed and built.
    3.7L block is Ford design, totally built by Mazda with different internals and different computer tune then Ford built 3.7L. (captain2, I'm waiting for you to chime in!)

    There is actually a "Mazda" logo stamped onto the engine, whereas the 03-08 Mazda6 had the "Ford" logo stamped on the V6 engine.

    6-speed manual + 5-speed auto transmission built by JATCO, a company partly owned by Mazda and Nissan. 6-speed automatic is built by Aisin.

    IIRC, Ford builds their own transmissions.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    They do not share transmissions either

    They may be different, but both the Mazda6 and Fusion do have a 5 speed auto with the 2.3.

    The Focus, that someone mentioned as having a 4 speed, does not have the 2.3 engine.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Very true. Almost every other mid sized had a 5-speed auto with their 4 cyl during that time period too....
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Ford used Aisin transmissions in the CD3s for both the I4 and V6 including the 3.5L V6 in the MKZ. The new GM joint venture 6 speed auto was used in the Edge, MKX, MKS and Flex. Not sure if the 2010 fusion V6 gets the Aisin or JV 6 speed auto.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Almost every other mid sized had a 5-speed auto with their 4 cyl during that time period too....

    This is not true. I know because that was one of my criteria in 2007. IIRC the following still had 4 speed autos with their I4: all GM divisions, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Hyudai, Kia, Chrysler and Dodge.

    As I recall, the only choices that met this criterion were Ford (and Mercury), Mazda, Honda, and Toyota...plus I'd include Nissan with their CVT.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    man, are we nit picky today... ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    To be fair, the Kia Optima, in its current form, has always offered a 5-speed automatic. Something Hyundai didn't do with its Sonata 4-cylinder.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Come January I think Ford may be the first one to offer 6 speed trannys exclusively - no 4 or 5 speeds in the Fulan.
  • oceana143oceana143 Member Posts: 38
    Has anyone test driven both of these cars? Curious as to which one is a better handling vehicle. Thank you.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't know for sure but it has to be the Mazda6.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    oh, it's for sure......no comparison.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Base, SE, SEL, Sport and Hybrid models

    Base, SE and SEL - standard 2.5L I4, 6 speed manual
    Optional 6 speed automatic
    Optional Flex Fuel (E85) 3.0L V6 w/6 speed selectshift automatic (upgraded to 240+ hp) on SE and SEL

    Sport - standard 3.5L w/6 speed selectshift automatic, sport tuned suspension
    Hybrid - 2.5L I4 hybrid with Aisin E-CVT transmission and twin LCD displays

    AWD available on SEL and Sport V6 models only.

    Blind spot detection
    Rear view camera
    SOS post crash alert system
    2nd gen Navigation and Sync
    Sony 12 speaker sound system
    Ambient lighting
    Capless fueling

    If they hit the predicted best in class fuel economy targets and get the restyling right then this will make the midsize sedan wars very interesting......
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,305
    the question was of brand seperation, so i widened the horizon a bit.
    i didn't realize mazda's made their extra power versus fords, until recently when it was evened out, due to just using VVT.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    ever see a ford mx-5? a ford rotary?
    of course not, that would be way too creative for any of the former 'Big 3'. The RXs and the Miatas are great examples of what Mazda in this case can do right if left to its own means. I only hope that Ford is forced to divest itself of Mazda and then we might see more of the same. How about a Mazda6 that is revolutionary and innovative as opposed to one that is evolutionary and more of the same?
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Without Ford cash in the 1990s there would be no Mazda6. For that matter, no Mazda, period.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Ford does NOT tell Mazda which vehicles to sell or not sell. They simply share engineering where it makes sense for both companies.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    There is not much revolution that can be placed into a mid-sized family car these day's. Many thought the 1st gen Mazda6 was revolutionary, particularly in terms of the drive. The second generation is always an evolutionary process. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. That being said, the Mazda6 does offer a lot, especially on the technology side, in terms of features that are not commonly found in a non premium mid-sized sedan. Add that to the sportiest drive of the bunch, and you have a vehicle that stands out.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    How about a Mazda6 that is revolutionary and innovative as opposed to one that is evolutionary and more of the same?

    They tried that with the first one and it didn't sell as well as planned. We'll see how the more Camry/Accord-like version 2.0 goes.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Sure there is some revolution that is possible. How about this: come up with a sedan that is mid-sized (on the large end of mid-sized) in interior and trunk volume, weighs no more than 2500 pounds, is powered by an advanced powerplant that gets close to 50 mpg (e.g. the VW turbo + supercharged small-displacement I4, or maybe an advanced but low-cost plug-in hybrid powerplant that gets close to 100 mpg), has world-class safety, world-class ride and handling, drop-dead gorgeous styling inside and out, and with an MSRP starting at around $20,000.

    How does that sound?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Without Ford cash in the 1990s there would be no Mazda6.
    certainly true - now 'ancient' history and hardly the point. Ford controls Mazda and has for a number of years now. Ford is now losing billions, selling 'junk' bonds, and building cars in Mexico while Mazda is rumored to actually be making a bit of money - so who do you think really is the ball and chain in this equation today? Toyo Koygo had historically been an independent, free thinking, and innovative company - not so much anymore. :cry:
    Nissan was in a similar position as Mazda at about the same time, got several billion francs injected from Renault, and ended up with one of the most competitive and profitable product lines in the entire industry. Carlo Ghosn notwithstanding, do you really believe that Ford's interest in Mazda has helped them at all in the last 10 years or so? Or hurt?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Ford will sell their stake in Mazda, it's just a matter of how much. They won't sell all. However, technology sharing will continue to take place for many years, gradually less and less as years progress is the presumption.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Well, until the NHTSA adds another "star" to their rating system, the Mazda6 is the safest on the road. It's the only mid-sized sedan with a "5-star" safety rating in all 5 category's.

    While we are at it, who is going to be the first to make 'em fly??? How's that for revolution.... ;) Everything else you mentioned is evolution BTW...
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Evolution? Know of any mid-sized sedans that get close to 100 mpg with world-class handling? I don't...

    5-for-5 on the NHTSA tests is impressive (especially on rollover, where 5 stars is very rare), but I'll wait for the IIHS tests to bestow "safest on the road" to the Mazda6.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    but I'll wait for the IIHS tests to bestow "safest on the road" to the Mazda6.

    Yeah, I worded it a little funny. After I read what I wrote, it was too late to edit it.

    Know of any mid-sized sedans that get close to 100 mpg with world-class handling?

    Well, you did mention hybrids and other technologies that already exist. So, an improvement on those systems is evolutionary. World class handling? I guess that is a subjective question. Unless there is a totally new type of suspension to come out, anything that we may see in the future is evolutionary, meaning evolving from current technology.

    The closest thing to "revolutionary" that is about to hit the market is the Chevy Volt. Currently, there is no mass produced vehicle like that on the road that uses a gasoline engine for the only purpose of charging the battery, and the battery is used as the main source of power to the engine. I would say the Honda FXC is another, however, there are numerous rumors that the FXC will not go into mass production.

    The 1st gen Prius and 1st gen Insight were revolutionary almost 10 years ago.
  • biker4biker4 Member Posts: 746
    Most of that is doable except the under 2500lb part. Unless you're talking about a $100K+ composite frame/panels car, it'll never weigh less than 2500lbs.
  • biker4biker4 Member Posts: 746
    I guess it depends on one's definition of mass production - while the current run of 200 FCXs may not be mass production, I'd say once they make about 1000 of them, that's close enough.

    I don't know the number sold but I'd consider the Civic GX mass produced.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    If I am not mistaken, the last criteria, rollover, gets 5 stars if the chance of rollover is less than 10%. Mazda6 checks in at 9%, while a host of other midsize at 10%. Realistically speaking, that very little difference is inconsequential.

    Side note, I can't believe the Honda Accord only gets 3 stars from rear side...
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    You're right, it does depend on what you consider "mass production". One cannot walk into a Honda dealer and test drive, or purchase a FXC, so, I do not consider it as a mass produced vehicle. I believe they are private or corporate lease vehicles only. Mazda has a hydrogen rotary hybrid that is currently leased to corporations in Japan and Europe. While it is revolutionary, I really don't see it hitting the streets any time soon.

    I would say the Civic GX is mass produced too. While there are not a lot available, you can actually go to a dealer and request one.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    While the percentage point may be only 1%, the vast majority of the public does not know that. All they see is stars. In the general public's mind, there is a big difference between 4 stars and 5 stars.

    I agree with you about the Accord and the rear crash test. I'm a little surprised about that.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,305
    at one point, the GX was only available in 2 states. has that changed?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There are some cars today that have mid-sized interiors and trunks and are around 2800 pounds. One of those has an old-tech iron-block engine. So with a smaller, lighter powerplant and more use of lightweight, high-strength steel, I think 2500 pounds is very doable without lots of composites. Of course, this would not be a 190+ inch long car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I guess under your definition of "evolutionary", anything with 4 wheels and an engine is evolutionary. Thus the Volt is evolutionary--other cars (e.g. Prius) use a gas engine to charge the batteries so it can be driven only under electric power. The Volt simply extends the range of electric-only operation. And since hydrogen fuel cells have been around for about 50 years, their use in a car is evolutionary also. Also, the Prius and Insight were not the first gas-electric hybrid cars, so they were not revolutionary. They (especially the Prius) were the first to be successful in the marketplace, though.

    I suppose if some totally new form of propulsion, e.g. hyperdrive, were invented and first used on a car, that would be revolutionary,
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I guess under your definition of "evolutionary", anything with 4 wheels and an engine is evolutionary.

    If you go back and read what I wrote, you would see where I said that improving on existing technology is evolutionary, and the implementing introduction of new technology that has not been available is revolutionary.

    Thus the Volt is evolutionary--other cars (e.g. Prius) use a gas engine to charge the batteries so it can be driven only under electric power

    The Volt and Prius are totally different. The gasoline engine on the Volt is only used to charge the battery. The Volt is powered by an electric motor only. The gas engine has nothing to do with propulsion. The Prius only uses an electric motor for up to 25mph, and uses the gasoline engine for everything else, just like every other car on the road.

    They (especially the Prius) were the first to be successful in the marketplace, though.

    Yes, that makes them revolutionary. Toyota and Honda were the first companies to something no auto manufacturer has done before. It does not matter that the technology existed. We are not debating who invented what. We are talking about who was the first to offer it to the public on a grand scale.

    And since hydrogen fuel cells have been around for about 50 years, their use in a car is evolutionary also

    Again, for a company to introduce revolutionary technology does not mean that they had to invent it. Mazda is, and has always been considered a "revolutionary" company for vehicles like the RX's and MX-5 Miata. Did Mazda invent the rotary? No, Dr. Felix Wankel did. Mazda is the only company to continue to offer it to the public. Did Mazda invent the roadster? No, they just offer the most popular, best selling roadster in automotive history. Those are two of their signature vehicles, which no other manufacturer really offers.

    What makes companys revolutionary is their ability to offer products to the general public that has not been available to them before.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    What makes companys revolutionary is their ability to offer products to the general public that has not been available to them before.

    Good, we are agreed then. A 100 mpg, best-in-class handling mid-sized sedan would be revolutionary because no such product has been made available to the public before.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I hope I get to see one in my lifetime....oh.....it has to have 300hp, too! :shades:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Also, the Prius and Insight were not the first gas-electric hybrid cars, so they were not revolutionary

    Your correct. Porsche had an gas/electric model circa 1910.
  • newowner10newowner10 Member Posts: 227
    What technology did Porsche use in 1910? Must be very primitive, Did it have a big switch to go between gas and electric. I believe the technology in the Prius is revolutionary as far mass-market appeal. I believe most things evolve these days. Room size computer that adds and subtract to a room size computer that multiplies. 1 transistor per inch to a million in a inch. One technological step allow more things to become possible. If the Transistor was not invented our whole world would be completely different. Heck a bunch of dinosaurs had to die or we would all be driving Stanley Steamers.
  • oceana143oceana143 Member Posts: 38
    Has anyone taken these two for test drives and compared yet? I already looked at the Camry SE and didn't like the steering. My concerns are that other posters say that the Mazda revs very high at freeway speeds while the Nissan shoots a lot of vibration through the steering wheel while on rough roads, especially with potholes. Is it really possible to get a midsized sedan with very good handling or do I have to move up to a BMW/Acura type vehicle for this?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Mazda revs very high at freeway speeds

    I think that is only with the manual transmission.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I have yet to take a 6-speed Mazda6 i on the highway yet, but, from what I understand it does rev higher. The auto is normal.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Have you tried a Fusion? Steering feel and handling are excellent without being too harsh. Not sure about the current I4 but the 2010 Fusion due in 2-3 months gets a new 2.5L I4 with new 6 speed auto and manual trannies with claims of best in class fuel economy, so I would assume it's not going to be running high RPM.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    What technology did Porsche use in 1910? Must be very primitive,

    Of course, even technology used 10 years ago is primitive by today's standard. However, the Prius isn't revolutionary it's just mass marketed. How can you have a revolutionary technology that has been around for 100 years? It's like saying the internal combustion engine is revolutionary in 2008.
  • newowner10newowner10 Member Posts: 227
    "I believe the technology in the Prius is revolutionary as far mass-market appeal" So we agree. Would you consider a electric Golf Cart the predisor of a Prius
  • newowner10newowner10 Member Posts: 227
    "I believe the technology in the Prius is revolutionary as far mass-market appeal" So we agree.
    Would you consider a electric Golf Cart the predecessor of a Prius. I think the day of someone sitting in their garage and inventing something creating a new technology is very rare. Many times the technology exists put it has to be cost effective to manufacture. (Hydrogen Cell, Solar Cells)
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