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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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    urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Maryland has rumble strips, on the right lane, where the shoulder begins, on most of its state routes.
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    baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I don't know, I think I am more partial to the silver WRX going the other way in the first picture.
    Anyway, my next question is where are they? They have Ohio MFG plates, but I am thinking they are in California heading to a ski resort area. I haven't seen another state have the "inverted" rumble strip type thing on the center line like that.

    I hope no one from Honda is monotoring this thread if all we notice in the pics of their new bread and butter model are the rumble strips on the road. :P
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Washington state has those on the sides of many roads now.... separating the lane from the shoulder.

    Yeah but those are in the middle under the double yellow. I thought the road from Mammouth up to the lodge and the June Lake loop were like that, I figured a lot of the roads around the California mtn ranges had it.
    Botts dots would get scraped off by the plows, although sometimes they put the Botts dot in the depression grove.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    There's a difference in using them in the first or second year of production of the model, and the end of the model run. Who would be dumb enough to pay full price on a car that will be "obsolete" in four months? Not even a "dumb ole Honda buyer" apparently! :-)

    I do, however, hope it wasn't me you were referring to with the "arrogantly bragging" statement, because I don't think I've EVER said Honda never had to use discounts. Maybe, you were just making a statement out of the context of my post instead? Maybe?
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    from the front it looks like an altima

    I'm not seeing it, sorry. The Altima has very stretched vertical headlights, where the Accord has horizontal ones.
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Have a thing against Ford Motor Company I see... ;)
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    yeah, only about $3,000 more... :P
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I'm very surprised here. Not much character, or stand-out styling. Front looks like an old Saturn, And the rear looks like a Sonata! Hope this isn't a new Honda Accord.. or they are going to be in really big trouble..
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    A loaded EX-V6 Accord (no Navi) is all over the prices paid forum for $23k-$24k. In all honesty, is a like-equipped Fusion SEL-V6 (with the $3,335 in options required to equip it similarly to the Accord) going for $20k-$21k? That would be about $6,000 below MSRP for a Fusion, or more than 20% off.
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Its a Ford product Backy, this is why people don't want to notice! The Taurus (500) is a great value of a car. Get it with AWD and it can't be beat for value/performance/quality/safety.. yet the media chooses to ignore it. Looks good now too with the new grill and tail lights.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Hope this isn't a new Honda Accord.. or they are going to be in really big trouble..

    What a surprise, you don't like the Honda. I could've bet money that you wouldn't!

    If you ask me, it is one of the more cohesive designs in the class. Beats the Camry handliy (what's with that beak on the hood, and the fluffy look of the body?). If Toyota can sell 450,000 Camries, Honda won't have a problem moving this Accord design unless the interior goes downhill.

    That's ok.

    I'm struggling to see the Saturn you are talking about in the front end though, I really am. If anything, I'd say it has a mix between the TL and the Odyseey in front-end design.

    Styling is all purely subjective, as we all know.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Midsize sedans, or manufacturer news & views?

    I find it very entertaining that you think people don't buy a car because of the media.

    What bad media has there been about Ford products?

    The media doesn't typically make a big deal about mid-model changes. Honda added horsepower and redesigned the rear of the Accord COMPLETELY. I didn't see an article about it until a comparison involving the new 2006 Fusion, and even then, the article wasn't about the redesigned Accord.
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    C'mon Grad. You got to stop trying to convince people that Honda products are actually less expensive than Ford products. It is common knowledge to anyone that has been around and shopped around knows Honda vehicles are priced at premium prices and dealers don't deal. Get out on the net, you will see people paying $25K-27K for Accord v6 EX, add NAV and it jumps to 28-30K. Just like the guy I spoke of that paid $19,750 for a Civic EX automatic! no nav and he thought he got a good deal?? :surprise: I don't think you can option a Focus out to even reach $16,000... :shades:
    I traded in a 2001 Ford Escape XLT v6 with 75,000 miles. they gave me $11,000. Paid $23,000 for the Fusion SEL v6, leather, sunroof, heated seated, the works. I also got 0% financing.. I am thousands ahead of if I would have bought an Accord.. My car will be paid for in about 3 years.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    C'mon Grad. You got to stop trying to convince people that Honda products are actually less expensive than Ford products.

    I'll just wait here while you show me where I did that.

    Get out on the net, you will see people paying $25K-27K for Accord v6 EX, add NAV and it jumps to 28-30K.

    I AM out on the net, on this very site. That's where I got the prices I gave you. Anyone reading this should hop over to the Honda Accord prices paid forum and see the prices. Less than $24k for the EX V6, add about $1,500-$2000 for NAVI (making it less than $26,000).

    Maybe instead of repeating your in-credible information, you should check out the Accord forum and see for yourself.
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    jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    Hope this isn't a new Honda Accord.. or they are going to be in really big trouble..

    I doubt it. If you put wheels on a bathtub and threw a honda badge on the front, people would buy it.

    and then they'd come on this board and post about it being the best wheeled bathtub in the world :P
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I got my Ex-L V6 for $23695 last month - nircdoc

    There had been a few deals for around $23,500 (for EXV6) (include Destination) and even better. Common deals are around $23,800. - nighthawk326

    EXV6 $23,651 - joensuefay

    No trade-in. Did not use Dealer Financing. Earlier this month (April 7th, 2007). I purchased 2007 Honda Accord 4dr SEDAN EX-L V-6 Automatic Transmission with Navigation for $25,061.76 (NOT INCLUDING MARYLAND TAX AND TAGS). - ballroomdancer
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Not everyone. Mine would be the best bathtub "for me" but not for you necessarily.
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    jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    To be fair, It's a reputation they've earned. Personaly, I think the accord is a very good car, and worth the extra money you (usually) pay for one. came very, very close to buying one. In the end, it was only my past reliability experience with nissan, and the fact the accord redesign wasn't out yet that put me in the altima. But as reliable as my wife's civic has been; if I'd been buying in 2008 instead of 2007, I may very well have bought an accord. It deffinitly finished runner up in my car search.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    You got the 2007 Altima? Cool! How are you liking it so far? The CVT in a mainstream sedan intrigues me. Is it the 2.5, and if it is, what kind of mileage are you seeing from it?
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    If you put wheels on a bathtub and threw a honda badge on the front, people would buy it.

    As long as they keep making the highest quality bathtubs, you bet we will. :)
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    jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    I got the 2.5s. so far, the car is great. The CVT is amazing, I really think its going to be the future of transmissions. Whats nice about it is, It deffinitly makes the car move faster. Its hard to describe, but it always maintains the perfect gear ratio, without having to dog the engine, and can do it with such ease. I guess the best way to explain it would be tachometer (at any speed) can fluctuate from 1500-5000 rpm in a matter of seconds, just by how much gas you give it. You can be cruising 60 mph at 1800 rpm, push the gas in all the way, and the engine will rev (in an instant) up around 5000 rpm. But as soon as you let off the gas, it will drop back to about 1800. And you never feel it at all. You could almost confuse the tachometer with the speedometer. And driving it normally, I'll often notice that the rpms are going down while I'm speeding up. very weird. :surprise: The I-key is also pretty neat. Totally impossible to lock you key in it. Lock and close the doors with the key inside, the car automaticly unlocks all four dors and starts beeping and screaming at you. leave it in the trunk and close the lid, and the trunk automaticly opens itself. The car will also give a warning on the HUD if you close the door with the car running if the key is not in the car. That way, you won't drive off without it.

    As for the milage, I've been driving it mostly mixed, and getting about 29-30 mpg. But I haven't done much open road driving yet, and I've heard the milage isn't as good the first couple thousand miles. Supposedly the car is programed to burn a richer fuel mixture for a couple thousand miles for break-in purposes.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Sounds like a great car. I didn't realize the keyless ignition did all that, what a smart idea. I've nearly closed the trunk on my keys a couple of times, and caught it at the last second.

    I've been in a car with CVT once in my life (a Honda Insight of all things - what a tiny tin can!) and it was the weirdest thing to me as well, although I'm sure I'd get used to it. 29-30 MPG is about what I average in my 06 2.4L Accord and that is a mix of city and highway, without being real racy in my style (4,000 RPM is tops for me most days). Sounds like your Altima is returning similar mileage, with a little more horsepower! Sweet!
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How true. The Accord has never been a style leader, although the Gen 3 sedan and coupe were pretty swoopy for their time, with retractable headlamps and all. I think Honda aims for clean styling that won't offend a lot of people. That is the way to sell lots of cars. That, and the long-term quality reputation.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I know I'm biased since I have one, but the Gen 5 (1994-1997) Accord had the best combination of being unoffensive yet stylish with the shoulder line that ran the length of the car.

    image
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    jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    I think with any nissan car (especially the altima because it uses a better version) you have to go with the cvt. Their MT's arn't bad, but deffintly lagg behind the competion. Bassed on my test driving, I'd have to give honda the nod when it comes to manual transmissions. By far the smoothest I've driven. I'd put the camry at #2, then most every other midsize, and nissan at or near the bottom. It's deffinitly their weakest area, IMO.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The only Nissan stick I've ever driven was the vehicle I actually learned to drive a stick in - 1999 Nissan Frontier XE 4-cylinder.

    Doesn't stick out in my mind as being bad, but then again, I drove this before I drove a Civic stickshift, and haven't gone back to another since then. A sedan's will be very different from a truck (should be much better, no?)
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    jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    They're not horrible, but if you drive around in an accord manual for awhile, then hop in nissan manual, you'll deffinitly notice the difference. I don't know if its because nissan has focused so much on the cvt, or honda has developed such good manuals (which i suspect), but you'll deffinitly notice. Longer throws, more shift shock, and less power at the lower end of the gears are the most noticable.
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    plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91107&acode=USB70HOC011A0&restor- e=false

    Pasadena, California(pretty much normal as can get West Coast). Select manual transmission.

    $15566 plus delivery($16161)
    Kind of puts it in perspective. All the substance, none of the bling. I'd take it over a Hyundai or GM small car anyday.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Through CarsDirect.com

    No haggling for this price.

    The Fusion, when equipped like the Accord (adding Satellite Radio, Leather, Heated Seats, ABS, Traction Control (closest thing to Stability Assist), was $23,285 on the same site - no haggle price.

    The no haggle price difference is now less than $500 between Fusion and Accord on CarsDirect.com. Not $5000 as some would have you believe.

    Accord - $23,762
    Fusion - $23,285

    This includes the rebates on the Fusion.
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    In my zip code the Accord EX V6 is $25,164 on carsdirect.com.

    The Fusion SEL with the options you list is $22,327 there...adding moonroof (Accord EX has that, right?) puts the Fusion at $23,019. This is about a $2100 difference.

    The Fusion can also be had for $1000 more with 0.9% financing for 36 months. For most this will be worth more than the $1000.

    The Accord is in it's last year, in a few months the difference will likely be at least $3000. I think the difference in price between Accord and cars like Fusion/Milan/Mazda6 is typically at least $2000 and as much as $3500.

    I know I paid $1700 less than carsdirect price for my Mazda6...this is $3800 less than carsdirect price of the comparable Accord. I suspect, at least in my market, that the Honda dealers would not discount to $1700 below carsdirect price, as the Mazda dealer did...but even if they did, the Accord would still be $2100 more than Mazda6.
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The stripped Accord VP on carsdirect in my zip code comes in at $17,958 with automatic. That is still $2000 more than I, and many others, paid for Mazda6i sport value automatic (which is much better equipped...about like the Accord SE).
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    baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I drove this before I drove a Civic stickshift, and haven't gone back to another since then.

    Being a manual tranny enthusiast I'd like to address this one. :D

    Every car we've bought in the past 11 years, 4 total, has been a stick. By far the worst shifter was in our '96 Civic (EX with VTEC) so I hope Honda has improved them since then. It had to be connected to the transmission with rubber bands. I have no other explanation for it. I'm sure the Civic you drove was much better than a truck but it was not a good experience for me.

    Actually I take that "by far the worst" comment back. The shifter in our '98 ZX2 was a bit rough too but not rubbery like the Civic's.

    Since then the cars we've bought have gone up in status I guess you could say. The Mazda6 shifter was pretty nice but it's clutch was tricky. Our Mustang's Tremec T56 is like heaven compared to any of the others however.

    Given the press the Accord shifters have received I don't doubt that the shifter is nice. Let's just be careful of how much praise we give to Honda transmissions though. I personally don't feel their track record is as stellar as we're sometimes made to believe and I'd bet others would agree. Besides, for about the same price of a loaded Accord you can get a MAZDASPEED6 with, from what I've read again, a shifter that's hard to beat.

    I do applaud Honda for offering an MTX with the V6 in the Accord though. Not many mfrs do that these days and it gives guys like me hope for the future. My kids are still small and fit in the Mustang just fine. Someday that will change and I'd like to have something great to fall back on at that time. :blush:
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    goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    A manual transmission in a sedan?

    No thanks.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I like the Gen 5 Accord too, it's my 2nd favorite after the Gen 3, and was more adventurous than the Gen 4 or Gen 6.

    I almost bought a Gen 5 LX coupe, but it was a little pricey and I leased a Mystique instead. Then right after I leased the Mystique, Honda put big lease incentives on the Accord. :cry:
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Then right after I leased the Mystique, Honda put big lease incentives on the Accord.

    Go figure. The Mystique treated you well though, I imagine?
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    That is interesting. But I have a correction to make to your Fusion price. I used your link and zip code, and after adding ABS and Trac Ctl, Moonroof, Heated Leather, the top-end sound system with Satellite Radio, the price was:

    Target Price with selected options: $23,385

    copied and pasted from CarsDirect. Not sure what options you left off of the Fusion, but the Accord has all of the above standard (I selected the AudioPhile sound system because Edmunds' stereo evaluation ranked that system below the Accord EXV6's standard system).

    $25,164 - $23,385 = $1,779.

    For $1,779 you get 23 horsepower, a smoother sounding engine, a more curvaceous interior without controls that can be found in many other models, Stability Control, and the best resale in its class.

    Of course, for someone who drives their car 20 years, doesn't want stability control, likes square interior designs and a more growling engine and don't mind lowest horsepower in the class (which is still plenty), the Fusion might just be money well-spent!

    It is all about personal taste and how you perceive the car. Scape asked me earlier to "quit trying to convince everyone that the Accord is cheaper than the Fusion."

    I've never said that, and if I have, please show it to me. What I'm trying to do is just encourage people to read the Honda Accord Prices Paid forum. People report prices, often times, their initial quotes. When there are high prices, such as $27,500 for an Accord V6 with Navigation, other buyers will step in and tell them they can do better.

    Of course an intial offer is going to be higher than one you negotiate, because some people are still convinced that Hondas go for near sticker price. Once people learn that they aren't, and enlighten the dealer to the knowledge they hold, the negotiation process takes a turn for the better (for the consumer).

    I've read that forum regularly, and the people getting the best prices are doing something very simple. Just bouncing internet quotes from one dealer to another until the best possible price is reached. No traveling from dealer to dealer is involved!
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The 4th gen Accord was the last generation that was 4cylinder only. Later generations became larger and heavier, to accomodate the V6 engines. The 4th gen Accord handled better than many sports cars. The 5th gen had a lot of style in it's profile, but I think the front and rear ends looked better on the 6th gen. Every generation had it's highs and lows.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The gain in weight was only about 100 pounds from Gen IV (2,738 lbs) to Gen V (2,855 lbs). That's the difference in one small person riding with you. Not too much heavier considering the added side-impact protection and extra airbag the Gen V added to the Gen IV.
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The added weight was only one factor. The 5th gen also had a shorter wheel base, longer body, and softer suspension. They are all small increments, but they do add up.
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    exshomanexshoman Member Posts: 109
    A manual transmission in a sedan?

    No thanks.

    I'll take my sedan with a manual, thank you very much... :)

    Just because a car has 4 doors doesn't mean you can't have some fun with it.
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    plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The reason you get a basic model(and the same VP with automatic is only $600-800 or so more) is that the chassis, suspension, brakes, and engine are all the same as the other models, or very close(the VP is missing a rear swaybar, but that's easy to add back in for a couple of hundred dollars - bolts right in).

    You can get the same shifting, engine, and driving experience as the 4 cylinder EX for a silly low price.

    Now, the clutch isn't fantastic. I'd rate it as good, though, or close to what you get in a typical European entry-level sport sedan. Definately a step up from everything else in this price-range, though. Not rubbery, not clunky. Smooth and adequate.

    That's worth $500 more right there in my book. And the automatic isn't bad, either - Honda makes nice autos. Far better than Hyundai or GM that's for sure.
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Yet another person jumps and and shows you that Honda Accords are generally $2-3,000 more than a like optioned Fusion and you still don't believe it?
    "For $1,779 you get 23 horsepower, a smoother sounding engine, a more curvaceous interior without controls that can be found in many other models, Stability Control, and the best resale in its class. "

    a smoother sounding engine.. a more curvaceous interior.. All this in this paragraph is your opinion. You had better have higher resale value, YOU PAID MORE upfront..

    About the only thing Honda/Toyota are riding on right now is PAST reputation. As consumers start to figure out you don't have to pay the high prices Honda/Toyota demand it is going to mean bad news for these automakers in the future. I visit about 6 other forums each day. I can tell you I run across at least 1 or 2 people that have decided to change to either a Nissan/Mazda/Hyundia/Subaru or some other brand other than an Accord or Camry. Granted, it doesn't show on the sales charts. But these are NOT repeat buyers and that cannot be good for reputation.
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    These are advertised prices of Accords from a very large auto dealer that holds about 5-8 different models/dealers.

    2007 Accord VP $18,209
    2007 Accord SE $20,088
    2007 Acccord SEV6 $21,648
    2007 EX-LV6 25,278 leather,moonroof,alloys NO NAV

    Another large dealer

    Accord Vp $18,188
    Accord LX 4cyl 5spd $19,588
    Accord SE $20,089
    Accord EX-LV6 - $25,278 NO NAV

    As we all know these are leaders and are the lowest price you are probably going to get from the dealer. Want the dealer names/numbers let me know and I'll e-mail them to you. Edmunds frowns on listing dealerships names/numbers.

    I also noticed Nissan is being very agressive with pricing of the new Altima. Altima 2.5 S for under $20,000 (automatics).. Very interesting..
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    zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    One of the things that seem to negatively affect resale values seems to be how much a new car is discounted. Now that the Accord has discounts higher than I can ever remember would suggest that those who currently own an Accord will now have worse resales than before. I would think the coupes would be hit the worst since the styling differences between the current and next generation are the most dramatic with the next gen looking really good. Since most of the styling on the new sedan still appear to be on the sedate side like the current model, I doubt the style differences will result in a extra hit in negative resale.
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    It is all about personal taste and how you perceive the car. Scape asked me earlier to "quit trying to convince everyone that the Accord is cheaper than the Fusion."

    Yes, and many people's personal taste would be that the Fusion (or Milan or Mazda6) is a better looking car, and/or the base radio is fine and/or they don't want a moonroof and/or ...

    I would not have any interest in these loaded up V6 models, myself. I only even looked at the pricing of them, because I was surprised at how small a difference someone was finding in CA. To me 200+ HP is overkill for these cars, the 150 or so in the I4s is adequate and I don't want things like leather seats and moonroofs.

    I do understand that you have not claimed Accord is cheaper. The new one does look to be a better looking car (to me) than the current one. I did not give the current one much consideration because of the combination of it's unappealing appearance and price of at least $2000 more than other cars I liked.

    Same deal with the Altima. It is pricier than some of the other choices and I don't happen to like the way it looks, so I did not give it much consideration...in addition I found the seat to be uncomfortable.
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I can tell you I run across at least 1 or 2 people that have decided to change to either a Nissan/Mazda/Hyundai/Subaru or some other brand other than an Accord or Camry. Granted, it doesn't show on the sales charts. But these are NOT repeat buyers and that cannot be good for reputation.

    So obviously just as many (or more) people are changing from these other brands to Accord/Camry. These are potential repeat buyers down the road. People are realizing that Camry/Accord are worth the extra initial cost.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yes, and many people's personal taste would be that the Fusion (or Milan or Mazda6) is a better looking car, and/or the base radio is fine and/or they don't want a moonroof and/or ...

    Exactly what I said. :) My perfect car is certainly not yours, or elroy's, or pat's, etc...

    I do understand that you have not claimed Accord is cheaper.

    Thank you. If only everyone else would quit putting words in my mouth! :) Accord are in fact more expensive. I'm through responding to the person who keeps trying to skew what I've said. Your post hsa both credence AND substance. How refreshing! :shades:

    The new one does look to be a better looking car (to me) than the current one. I did not give the current one much consideration because of the combination of it's unappealing appearance and price of at least $2000 more than other cars I liked.

    I certainly agree that the new model appears (at least at this point) to have more style than the current 5-year old model. Of the top 3 high-points I've found out of my 06 Accord, exterior style wouldn't be one of them (although I think it is nice looking, it isn't "beautiful"). The best attributes I've found were:

    Interior design/ergonimic layout. The inside looks like a car costing more, to me.

    Powertrain. I have the 2.4L, and that engine is so sweet all the way to redline! Lots of pep, and fuel economy that belies its size and pep.

    Suspension tuning. This one surprises me (in a good way) the more miles I drive in it. The Accord had the right balance of sporty handling and smoothness on the bumpy interstate for my tastes. Tauter than most midsizers, but softer than the Fusion and 6.

    Since I spend most of the time INSIDE and DRIVING the car, these were three very important attributes to me. Lots of standard safety features were a bonus.

    (I won't mention the individual features of the car, because just about all of those are available on other models in the class as well, so there would be no point).
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    jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    I also noticed Nissan is being very agressive with pricing of the new Altima. Altima 2.5 S for under $20,000 (automatics).. Very interesting..

    fairly hard to find one more than $100 or so under 20k. without options or destination, the invoice is almost 19100. just the freight charge will put it at 19700. add in floor mats and splash guards (which i've never seen a car without) and your up to 20k. Not very agressive to me.
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    goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Just because a car has 4 doors doesn't mean you can't have some fun with it.

    Shifting gears is fun?

    Maybe in a S2000 or a 330i OK, but in my daily driver - no way.
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    tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    Maybe in a S2000 or a 330i OK, but in my daily driver - no way.

    I realize that I'm in a minority considering how few manuals are sold but I wouldn't want to be without one. And that includes driving in heavy traffic! :)
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