Midsize Sedans 2.0

mickeyrom · February 2009

Ford Fusion Hybrid.

backy · February 2009

Assuming gas goes back up to $4 or so a gallon in the next year or two, I think the hottest midsized sedans then will be the Fusion/Milan hybrids and the upcoming Sonata hybrid--which is supposed to be the first hybrid to use lithium polymer batteries. Nothing else is due for a redesign in the next year or two, unless GM brings the new Opel sedan over here as the next Aura, as has been rumored. That car looked great, in photos at least.

stephen987 · February 2009

A very interesting question, cannon3.

I'll go out on a limb and say that as long as the economy remains in the doldrums, gas prices won't go back to the $4 levels we saw last year. In the next few years, customers who are actually able to buy a new car will be value-shoppers, not mpg shoppers. Therefore, the car to buy will be the four-cylinder Fusion S or SE.

Unless, of course, the Detroit 3 crash and burn, in which case the Sonata will experience more sales growth than any other midsize sedan.

Let the games begin. . .

stephen987 · February 2009

Backy, I don't think there will be a next Aura. Rumor has it that GM will shut down the Saturn brand within a few weeks.

lilengineerboy · February 2009

Backy, I don't think there will be a next Aura. Rumor has it that GM will shut down the Saturn brand within a few weeks.

I think something like that has to be part of a bankruptcy, remembering how much they got sued over Oldsmobile.

backy · February 2009

I realize it's no sure thing, which is why I said "...unless GM brings the new Opel sedan over here as the next Aura". That was reported in the car mags a few months ago. Of course, a lot has happened in the past few months.

But I left out one mid-sized car that is due for re-design soon--and none too soon: the Legacy.

cannon3 · February 2009

on a limb too.. I feel the Fusion/Milan in its 4cyl version will become popular. The new 2.5 sounds promising. With the Fusion/Milan showing good reliability/quality since its 2006 intro this will help also.
I read an article about Subaru in my Motor Trend that was kind of interesting. Subaru is owned by Toyota. Sounds as if Subaru doesn't have the cash needed to keep its own line of engines going. Subaru is knows for the flat boxster engines. Sounded like Toyota will swallow Subaru and start using much of its own engines/drivetrains ect in the coming years. I guess it will be interesting how this one plays out.
Saturn. Too bad if they go under. I like the Aura styling. Love the 2 seater Sky also. But GM needs to cut brands if they are going to survive. With China coming down the track and wanting to send cars here to the U.S. GM needs to look into getting lean and VERY mean.

stephen987 · February 2009

Subaru is owned by Toyota.

Not quite correct. Toyota owns a small stake in Subaru. For details of the business relationship and its likely implications for their product line, see the following article in Car and Driver.

If the Legacy is ever built on a Camry platform, or worse still, the Impreza and Corolla start to share major components, I will weep without ceasing.

lilengineerboy · February 2009

Toyota's interest in Subaru was 2-fold...
1. They wanted access to more manufacturing capability (might be a mute point now)
2. They wanted some technical help in making something fun to drive, because in the 20 years since the MR2 Turbo, Toyota forgot.

I think this happens a lot, BMW bought Land Rover for just long enough to develop the X5 and then Ford bought them and they shared a lot of off road knowledge.

I think there are rumors about an AWD turbo sport coupe from Toy that Subie is going to help develop. Even Toyota should be aware of Subie's DNA enough to not mess with it.

jeffyscott · February 2009

They wanted access to more manufacturing capability (might be a mute point now)

Apparently not, but it might be moot...sorry, couldn't resist.

lilengineerboy · February 2009

They wanted access to more manufacturing capability (might be a mute point now)

Apparently not, but it might be moot...sorry, couldn't resist.

Maybe I should be muted for using mute instead of moot. I hate it when I demonstrate my illiteracy.

ransay · February 2009

I am trying to decide between Camry/Sonata/Accord. I seek your views regarding the good n bad of each of these.

akirby · February 2009

Just curious - why not consider a Fusion?

thegraduate · February 2009

The Sonata is a lot like a bargain-priced Camry with a better interior. Quiet and smooth, but not particularly sporty. It has the best warranty of the three.

The Camry is quiet and smooth, but for some, too isolated from the road and definitely lacks driving fun.

The Accord is the most fun to drive of the three, and offers lots of interior space. It also has a firmer ride and offers less isolation and noise insulation.

That's my short synopsis. There's not a "bad" choice here. Drive them thoroughly and go with what you like best.

mickeyrom · February 2009

I would say Sonata.More bang for your buck plus a great warranty.Only shortcoming....definately much lower resale value.
You might consider the KIA Optima too,if you like a firmer ride,but stick with the 2.4 because the 2.7 V6 requires a new timing belt at 60,000 miles.

lilengineerboy · February 2009

The Accord is the most fun to drive of the three, and offers lots of interior space. It also has a firmer ride and offers less isolation and noise insulation.

I think the Accord FTD element peaked in the 86-89 versions and has been on a downhill trend since, ending up with the current version which is slightly less rolling-couch like than the Camry (so there is truth in 'grad's statements).

If FTD is important, I would look at the Mazda6 and Fusion.

If interior volume is important, I would keep the Accord on the list.

If purchase price is very important, I would look at the Sonota.

If isolation from the driving experience is very important, I would look at the Camry.

stephen987 · February 2009

If FTD is important, I would look at the Mazda6 and Fusion.

And the Altima.

lilengineerboy · February 2009

Yeah, you are right, I didn't mean to leave that one out. If you are interested in an automatic transmission, the CVT in the Altima is the best CVT in the business, although the 6 speed auto that is in the Fusion (and a lot of GM cars) is a nice unit as well.

cannon3 · February 2009

This market for family sedans has become so competitive, test drive them all. Don't leave out the Altima, Fusion/Milan, Malibu/Aura, Legacy, Jetta to name a few. Camry/Accord no longer have the reliability/quality advantage they used to. You also will pay more for the Camry/Accord. Test drive! its free..

canddmeyer · February 2009

Once again, check out the Mazda6. You might want to skip the Malibu/Aura, as GM is rumored to be possibly declaring bankruptcy next week.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/gm-say-more-aid-bankruptcy/story.aspx?guid- =%7BD2483F8A-638A-4A2B-9EC2-428EE920D5E5%7D&dist=msr_1

mazda6dude · February 2009

If you don't care about resale value, Sonata is hands down the winner and go for it. If you are looking for the all around vehicle sportiness, space, reliability, resalability etc. IMHO the accord is the best. I have a 2008 lx automatic and I am coming up on a year. Its been the best car I have owned. Not a single problem, flawless.

With the Sonata you get the best bang for the buck. The camry has a smooth ride and quiet. You can get a stellar deal on a 2009 since the 2010 comes out next month. No matter which car you pick, all are good in their own ways.

backy · February 2009

After paring down the list based on features (i.e. if some of the cars don't have features you want, strike them off the list), drive the rest of them, decide which of them you like based on the test drives (be sure they are on roads of the kind you typically drive on), and then start negotiating pricing on the ones that you would like to own for a number of years. You could also look at things like resale value and warranty depending on how long you plan to own the car, and trim your list that way.

One correction to some posts re interior volume, re the Accord having the advantage there. Actually it doesn't, in this class. The Sonata is tops in interior volume, with the LX/LX-P Accords (w/o moonroof) having a 0.6 cubic foot advantage in passenger space, but the Sonata having a 4.5 cubic feet edge with moonroof and a 2.3 cubic feet edge in trunk space (all trims). The Mazda6 is also quite roomy, 102 cubic feet of passenger space and 16.6 cubic feet of trunk space. But more important than the raw numbers is to check out how the interiors fit the people who will frequently ride in the car. The numbers alone don't tell the story of how much toe space is under the front seats, how high the rear seat is (very important for roominess back there), whether heads will brush the headliner in back, etc.

cannon3 · February 2009

If it had to come down to the Camry/Accord/Sonata. Sonata will cost you thousands less up front for a comparable model/trim level. Resale, really depends on your region and what you can sell the car for and if anyone is willing to pay the premium price for the Camry/Accord. Another point is Hyundai offers a better warranty and usually better financing which again could save you thousands over the time you own the car.
Fact is the only thing the Accord/Camry has over the Hyundai is resale value. Remember, you will pay more up front for a like optioned Accord/Camry. If you plan on owning the Sonata for 5+ years, resale will become pointless.
Sonata wins in my book.

thegraduate · February 2009

Fact is the only thing the Accord/Camry has over the Hyundai is resale value.

Pretty strong opinion there, which is good; but it's not a "fact" as you call it.

Driving dynamics, powerplants, and the overall driving experience is pretty different from car to car, so to say the Sonata is just "better" really doesn't fly. To me, the Sonata was a little boring to drive, but had a more compliant highway ride than my car. To me, the Sonata didn't drive as well, but to you, it might be better.

That's why the best advice here, I'd say, is to drive them yourself, form your own opinions and take everything you read here, including my posts, with a grain of salt.

EDIT: Cannon3, you mention in your post that resale beyond 5 years is pointless; I beg to differ.

I compared a 2004 Sonata LX V6 Automatic (the most expensive, in order to find competetive prices with a lower-model Accord) with a 2004 Accord LX I4 Automatic (the next up from the base model). Both with 75,000 miles, and standard equipment per Kelley Blue Book. The results might surprise you:

Sonata LX V6 - $5,750 in Good condition, $5,125 in fair condition
Accord LX I4 - $8,175 in Good condition, $7,325 in fair condition (Worth ~43% or $2,200 - $2,425 more)

To show that it isn't just with the Sonata, but with the brand, let's compare Elantra and Civic. I chose an Elantra GT (the top model, including leather seating) to compare to the Civic LX (the mid-range model), both with automatics. That way starting prices are competitive.

Elantra GT - $5,940 in Good condition, $5,340 in fair condition
Civic LX - $8,210 in Good condition, $7,410 in fair condition (Worth ~39% more, or $2,070-$2,270 more)

If the 5 year resale value is pointless, can I have $2300 please? You won't miss it. :shades:

Best regards,

TheGrad

backy · February 2009

Price-wise, the Fusion/Milan and even the Malibu are pretty close to the Sonata. I frequently see Fulans and Malibus equipped comparably to the Sonata GLS for around $15-16k + T&L, which is about the going price for a Sonata GLS. And some other cars are pretty close, e.g. I saw a big ad in this weekend's paper from a local dealer offering a minimum of $4000 off any Altima, and a well-equipped 2.5S for about $18k. Big discounts are available on Camrys, Accords, Optimas, Mazda6's, Legacys etc. too. A great time to buy a new mid-sized sedan for those in the market! Good deals on slightly used ones, too, but that is another story.

fushigi · February 2009

Grad, you're only telling half the tale. To understand if the higher resale was indeed a better value you need to also look at the price difference when the vehicles were bought new. The Accord's higher resale is only a benefit if the purchase price difference is less than the trade-in price difference. So if the Accord was under $2200-2425 more than the Sonata when purchased new then the higher resale paid off, but if the Accord cost more, then you've simply paid more for the Accord.

For instance, my car has a trade-in value about $2K less than a Camry of equal vintage (when equipped as similar as possible, same mileage & condition rating). But based on sale prices of the time I know I paid at least $3000 less than an equivalent new Camry. So in my case the higher Camry resale price is more than negated by the higher initial price; it indicates an approximate $1000 "Camry tax".

mickeyrom · February 2009

I think it comes down to two things.Which car do you like better and when do you want to save the money.When you buy,or when you sell.After owning both a Sonata and an Optima,I would like to add that the Accord does handle the bumps better,but on the interstate it's hard to choose between any of the mid sizes.

plekto · February 2009

Exactly. It's not like we're comparing a RX8 to a Buick here. All of these things are plain vanilla commuter-sedans and that's really all they're good for. Pick one you like and drive it until the wheels fall off or you get sick of it. Because there's very little difference between any of them.

thegraduate · February 2009

I beg to differ with ya; I was upfront with the vehicles I chose. Lower model Accords compete with upper level Sonatas on price. Same with Elantra/Civic.

robbieg · February 2009

I agree that most midsized cars are pretty good these days. If I was buying a 4 cyl. car with just the basic options I would probably buy a Fusion or a Sonota, or maybe a Malibu if it was priced the same as those two. The reason for this is that they are a pretty good deal if ordered in base form. However, I probably wouldn't buy a loaded Fusion, Sonota or Malibu and would instead look at the Camry, Accords and Altima and even the new Mazda6. I guess I am reluctant to pull the trigger and spend 25-27k on a loaded Chevy or Ford. For what its worth I drive a Subaru Legacy which I love in spite of its relatively modest size. I view it as a funky alternative to a Honda Accord.

akirby · February 2009

What is the difference between a loaded Chevy or Ford vs base models?

thegraduate · February 2009

Perhaps the greater amount of up-front investment versus resale value? The Hondas and Toyotas of today aren't worlds ahead in quality like they used to be, but the resale (especially that of Honda) is still a fair amount better.

Just speculating; not speaking for robbieg.

m6user · February 2009

I think comparing a V6 model Sonata to an I4 Accord just because they are closer in price is spin. Just compare similar drivetrain/amenities and see what the difference in resale is. Also, add in the interest on few thousand difference over 5 yrs. Also add in the less sales tax(plus interest over 5 yrs) and the total diffence would be quite a bit more. Also, I think there would be some value to two additional years of warranty for the Sonata but it would be hard to quantify.

Also, Hyundai has made great strides in quality(and the perception thereof) over the past 5 years, so the future resale values of cars bought today may be closer than the previous 5 years. However, that is just my opinion and I can't say it will be that way.

Let's stick with apples to apples and consider the whole picture when making comparisons especially if you're going to go through the trouble of looking up all the numbers in the first place.

robbieg · February 2009

I don't think that a midsize Chevy/Ford is worth that much. This is due in part to the lousy resale value of American cars. Also, I just don't think that a Chevy is anything more than budget transportation regardless of how nice one is on the inside. Thus, in my opinion the "image" associated with Chevy doesn't warrant spending a lot on a loaded Chevy. In my neck of the woods, I only know one person my age who drives an American sedan and they drive a base Impala which they bought because of price, they used a supplier discount.

P.S. I read some glowing reviews of the Ford Fusion Hybrid. In short it seems like a great Hybrid and it might even be better than the Camry Hybrid. My question is why is Ford pricing it $1100 higher than the Camry Hybrid. Doesn't Toyota command a premium over Ford?

akirby · February 2009

Spoken by someone who has formed their opinions based on what they've heard from others over the years and not based on factual research.

The fact is the difference in resale value on today's vehicles is relatively small and is usually offset by the lower street price of the Fusion or Malibu. Making the actual cost of ownership about the same. The reason for crappy resale in the past has been because the American mfrs overproduced substandard vehicles and had to heavily discount them and dump them into rental fleets which combined for poor resale. Ford in particular has greatly reduced fleet sales and cut back on production which will keep resale values in check.

As for the price difference on the Ford Fusion Hybrid versus the Toyota - I'm sure there is a difference in standard equipment. But even so, don't you think it's worth $1100 for significantly better fuel economy (41/36 vs. 34/33), BETTER reliability and much better looks (ok, the last one was subjective but I think most would agree).

imidazol97 · February 2009

>Spoken by someone who has formed their opinions based on what they've heard from others over the years and not based on factual research.

Totally agree.

>The fact is the difference in resale value on today's vehicles is relatively small and is usually offset by the lower street price of the Fusion or Malibu. Making the actual cost of ownership about the same.

Right on point.

>The reason for crappy resale in the past has been because the American mfrs overproduced substandard vehicles and had to heavily discount them and dump them into rental fleets which combined for poor resale

Not quite. The sales to fleet and rental markets help keep factories producing to cover the cost of manpower in those union factories. It's like the japanese producing and selling here at dumping prices on all kinds of things to keep factories at home running.

The idea they produces substandard vehicles to do it isn't right. Rental markets often wanted bare minimum equipment to keep the price low to the rentals. Same for fleet buyers. So the cars had minimum equipment. See your point #1.

> Ford in particular has greatly reduced fleet sales and cut back on production

GM also has cut back on sales to rental and fleets.

berri · February 2009

There is an interesting article in today's LA Times about Chevrolet. It talks about the Impala versus Malibu situation and how they cannabalize each other. The Malibu is their car of the future to go against Camcord, but the 20 year old Impala goes out the door for a similar price. Some shoppers end up buying the Impala because its bigger which hurts Malibu sales volume. Meannwhile, Impala has a big fleet audience. This gives GM cash flow, but more discerning customers rent Impala's and think GM hasn't changed and doesn't have competitive cars to Camcord. This dilemma really applies to a lot of D3. Need the profits and cash flow from the old cost amortized models, but this hurts the volume and marketing of the newer more import competitive models. I'm not sure how they fix it?

captain2 · February 2009

don't you think it's worth $1100 for significantly better fuel economy (41/36 vs. 34/33), BETTER reliability
Do the math - a 5 year payback on the $1100.00 difference - not to mention that you apparently don't want to acknowledge C&Ds 2-09 Hybrid comparo (my God, the Fusion 'won' I'm surprised you haven't told the world. They tested the FEs of The Fusion Hybird vs. the Camry Hybird and it wasn't the Toyota that used the most gas

despite what the window stickers say. Further you make a rather illogical assumption that the Fusion with new powertrains can be as reliable as the past models with antiquated powertrains. That probably won't happen.
Lastly, with our erstwhile new President's 'Buy American' initiative, it would seem that the Camry (or the Sonata) should be the choice there as well? :P

akirby · February 2009

The sales to fleet and rental markets help keep factories producing to cover the cost of manpower in those union factories. It's like the japanese producing and selling here at dumping prices on all kinds of things to keep factories at home running.

The idea they produces substandard vehicles to do it isn't right. Rental markets often wanted bare minimum equipment to keep the price low to the rentals. Same for fleet buyers. So the cars had minimum equipment. See your point #1.

You misunderstood my point. They were making substandard vehicles 10-15 years ago. Period. On top of that, they were overproducing them to keep the factories humming because they had to pay the UAW workers whether they worked or not. This caused huge rebates which lowered the cost of the new cars by several thousand dollars which accordingly lowers the value of used cars. In addition to all that they were dumping large numbers of sedans into rental fleets which also caused a glut of high mileage used vehicles, further eroding resale values.

The cars are no longer substandard (well, GM and Ford that is. Not sure about Chrysler right now) and they're no longer overproducing vehicles and dumping large percentages to fleet. And they're making more desirable products with better reliability. That's why resale value has improved and should stay that way.

berri · February 2009

I think D3 have to over list their car prices because they have to give bigger incentives and rebates. If things continue improving then this may change in a few years.

akirby · February 2009

They tested the FEs of The Fusion Hybird vs. the Camry Hybird and it wasn't the Toyota that used the most gas despite what the window stickers say.

Last time I checked 34 (Fusion) was higher than 31 (Camry) (300 mile test). The only test that the Camry won was a 80 mile highway trip. Fusion won the rest and the EPA test, which is the only "controlled" test where you know everything is equal. You can argue a lot of areas where the competition might be better than the Fusion, but fuel economy is NOT one of them, at least not right now.

Further you make a rather illogical assumption that the Fusion with new powertrains can be as reliable as the past models with antiquated powertrains. That probably won't happen.

Oh, so that only works for the imports, huh? There is nothing drastically "new"
about the new powertrains. The 2.5L is a newer version of the 2.3L but with less noise and better FE. The hybrid is basically the same one used in the Escape for several years. The 3.0L is an improved version of the old engine and the 3.5L is the same one that's been out for years in the Edge and Taurus.

You're really stretching now.......

lilengineerboy · February 2009

I figured it was going to be a hard adjustment for some folks.

It can be upsetting with the model for how the universe works changes.

I noticed the 6 speed manual 2.5l 4 cylinder SE has a SYNC/sunroof quick order option. That sounds promising.

And that is even before we get to the "top-rated" hybrid, which has more safety features (standard and optional) then I've seen on the Camry. I can't even compare it to my '07 Accord, it can't even play an MP3 or connect to an iPod.

Its okay to be a fan. The status quo wasn't working...the people voted for change, Ford is on board as well.

lilengineerboy · February 2009

There are two types of fleet sales that are getting lumped together.

Rental fleets, like Hertz, Avis, etc, are looking for low cost reliable vehicles so they can keep costs low for rental customers. This is good for them, bad for resale.

Then there are commercial customers like MickyDs or Comcast or DTE which buy a large number of vehicles each year. These fleet users give a lot of feedback into the design cycle and are pretty much good for everyone. Another example is the Escape hybrids in the NY taxi fleet - what a great way to get accelerated life testing.

imidazol97 · February 2009

Thanks for the explanation. I agree.

vanman1 · February 2009

The Impala is a decent car but it's getting dated for sure. GM has not updated it much since it came out in 2006. I tested one but the Malibu is a much more modern car and I was willing to give up a little space to be in an up to date car. I have zero regrets, Malibu is a fantastic car.

Chevy needs an all new Impala soon but I think it may be on hold because of the recession and GM's financial issues.

vanman1 · February 2009

"I don't think that a midsize Chevy/Ford is worth that much. This is due in part to the lousy resale value of American cars. Also, I just don't think that a Chevy is anything more than budget transportation regardless of how nice one is on the inside. Thus, in my opinion the "image" associated with Chevy doesn't warrant spending a lot on a loaded Chevy. In my neck of the woods, I only know one person my age who drives an American sedan and they drive a base Impala which they bought because of price, they used a supplier discount".

Take a Malibu for a drive, you will be shocked as to how good it is and how well it's built. There is no doubt I would never have really looked hard at a Chevy before the New Malibu came but it is a top notch sedan. Put your bias aside and test one.

aviboy97 · February 2009

There is no doubt I would never have really looked hard at a Chevy before the New Malibu came but it is a top notch sedan. Put your bias aside and test one.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Why don't you put your Malibu bias aside? Sorry, I won't ask you to do that, because you are entitled to an opinion as well.

I have driven a Malibu and I felt is was very cheap. I am interested in the new Fusion, as far as American goes. Chrysler? Please....it's only a matter of days before they are gone.

captain2 · February 2009

Last time I checked 34 (Fusion) was higher than 31 (Camry) (300 mile test). The only test that the Camry won was a 80 mile highway trip.
you are the source of the Ford press releases not me - and would say something like 'siginficantly better' FE and then use those figures to insinuate that the $1100.00 price difference would be quickly recovered with this. All I referenced was a specific test by Car and Driver that refutes your press relea, and would seem to indicate that maybe you wouldn't save anything by buying the Ford.
The Camry did take a fall recently , mostly because of the new 6 spd AT, with the truly new Camry and the drivetrains (V6) that came with it. So much so that even CR dropped its 'automatic' approval for the V6 versions of the Camry. So it seems that not even Toyota with all its billions is immune to teething problems - so now you want to contend that Ford will be successful with this - where Toyota didn't (the ratings for the V6 Camry improved rapidly). Yet another one of your press releases I guess - Ford with no money will be successful doing something that not even Toyota , with all that money - can do? Be real, probably won't happen. :confuse:
The 3.0, 3.5 and 3.7 were recently noted by CR (the 09 Auto issue) as still being relatively rough and unrefined (surprise, surprise) , so if you now wish to claim that the V6 is nothing more than yet another DT, or that the 2.5 is nothing more than yet another 2.3 - then in both cases the buyer is getting something less than what is offered by the Fusion's competitors. The 3.5 has been around a whole 3 years BTW - reliability ratings (and reviews) for the Edge and Taurus have been unremarkable at best. 3 years is hardly enough time to make any kind of judgement about the reliability of the supposedly new DT - although the results so far have not been that encouraging.
Just calling a spade a spade, something very difficult to do when you look at the world thru blue ovalled glasses.

akirby · February 2009

Grasping at straws is an understatement. I guess change is really hard for some folks to accept.

And BTW - I did NOT insinuate that you could recover the $1100 price difference (if that's what it really is - somehow I doubt those vehicles have the same equipment level) based on better fuel economy. I said IF that was the price difference then it might be justified based on several things including better FE but also including subjective differences like styling, ride quality, handling etc.

YOU said the camry used less gas and I see 5 out of 6 tests that say otherwise (2 EPA tests and 3 out of 4 C&D tests).

You're dropping your straws........

thegraduate · February 2009

Having extensively driven a 3.5L Honda and the 3.5L Taurus, I can tell you that yes, the Honda is a bit smoother, but frankly, I've yet to find an engine with as sweet of a note as the Honda has. It's a sewing machine at low revs and a motorcycle at high ones.

That said, the Ford isn't rough or "unrefined." Instead, it is very smooth at low revs, but lacks the sweet sound of the Honda. At high revs, the Ford has an great growl. Sounds powerful like the Honda, but in a different way.

For what its worth, in my close family, we have a V6 Honda, 5 4-cyl Hondas, the Taurus, and a 4.0L I6 Jeep!

Midsize Sedans 2.0

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles