Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options

Midsize Sedans 2.0

1…230231233235236…544

Comments

  • Options
    delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Hi,I would rank the midsize sedans in this order:

    1.Toyota Camry- perfect,flawless car.Luxurious ride,quiet cabin,good fit and finish with quality materials.Infact the ride is much much better than expensive luxury sedans like BMW,Mercedes.
    That people say it is a boring car is an absolute statement of how good it is.Very few complaints.If you want a peppier ride,you have the V6 or the sporty SE version.
    Just how u can`t like a Camry is beyond me.You just can`t go wrong here.If perfect is boring then less than perfect is disastrous.

    2.H.Sonata- trying to copy Camry in comfort,ride,fit and finish.Good warranty.Superb effort by Hyundai to come up to this level after their initial dismal cars.Got to give it to them[makes me wonder if Hyundai can do it,,why can`t GM,Dodge? On a side note,check out or drive the Genesis]
    Sadly,poor resale value- people`s perception-takes time to change.Tremendous used car bargain.

    3.N.Altima- i think Nissan is dropping in quality.The fit and finish are subpar with lots of plastics and cost cutting evident.Resale value average.lots of emission and electrical problems.The 02 Altima was a home run but the redesigned one is just not up to average.Nissan is living oou of previous success.Also average ride , comfort and reliability.

    4.F.Fusion- Very much improved with good ride quality and average fit and finish.Still,long term reliability unknown.But a lot better than the previous model.Cannot even compare to the previous Taurus..Poor resale value.

    5.H.Accord- Lot of people will be surprised by this but the ride on the Accord is horrible.Noisy cabin,can feel every bump,squeaky and rattling cabin.All these defects are masked as a sportier ride.Please,u are spending 20k and u should get a decent comfortable car.Too much hype.All hype and no substance.Good reliability ,also,very good resale value due to the hype.The first test drive is good ,wherein most people make the mistake.Drive it regularly and it is such a pain.It is like driving a rattle box with rough seats and bouncy ride.At the end of the drive ,u get really tired from all of it.They do a good PR job-- marketing all these unacceptable deficiencies as a sporty ride.
    The problem is,,a lot of the reviews it gets are based on the first drive.Rarely,do u see reviews on it for long drives or at say,30k miles.Hence,skewed reviews.

    So,for me the best new car-- absolutely-- Camry---just drive it-- u can feel the quality.
    Sonata,Altima ,Fusion-- great used car bargains.Not at all worth buying new.
    Accord- worst new and used car bargain.It`s like paying more for a torture ride.Avoid at all costs.

    I have owned a Toyota,Honda,Nissan,Dodge,saturn and Ford.So my perspective is from all sides.Just MHO.
  • Options
    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Funny, I'd put my list in opposite order. I don't like the Mushiness of the Camry LE/XLE or Sonata GLS/Limited, and much prefer the sportier Accord.

    Just because a car costs $20k + it doesn't have to be dull.

    You call them "deficiencies" which are marketed to call it "sporty." You don't think Honda could put out a mushy/soft/isolated car like the Camry LE/XLE? Trust me friend, if Buick could, Honda could. And I'm so thankful that they don't. :) That's why we have options, but remember that an option you don't like isn't necessarily under-engineered, as you imply. :D:blush:

    Best,

    TheGrad
  • Options
    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How about Mazda6, the newest design in the class? Or Malibu? Or Optima?
  • Options
    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Just how u can`t like a Camry is beyond me.You just can`t go wrong here.If perfect is boring then less than perfect is disastrous.

    I think a lot of people feel the way you do, they just want to go to work and back, not think about it, not worry about it, just go. They have somewhere to be.

    Then there are enthusiasts. Its about the trip, the journey there, the experience, those who want a vehicle to experience a drive as opposed to being totally isolated from it. My rankings would be much more driven by sport.

    1. Legacy - AWD, competitive fuel economy, very sporty feel, good equipment pkg even on the base. The back seat is a lil tight and the manual trans is snarky when its cold.

    2. Mazda6 - The steering feels great, the car feels alive, almost VW like. 6 forward gears on the manual transmission. No up-level manual transmission model.

    2. Fulan - Apparently the new one is mushier than the old one, I have to wait and see...I am going to drive it before I whine about it. It also gets a 6 speed manual (elbow...Honda), SYNC, and is supposedly the class leader for F/E. If it has responsive steering, it keeps its spot. "Sport Sedans" should have rear disk brakes.

    3. VW - I can't decide if the Passat or the Jetta should go here, the Passat with the 2.0t has great low end torque (tiny turbo) and a 6 speed manual. The handling is good, even on the base model with cheezy tires. The Jetta TDI is great in America, but I think the only reason it seems so great is because we don't get any of the other diesels in Europe.

    4. Accord - I don't care for the styling inside or out. Not a contender right now. Down a gear in both auto and manual to competition. Still can't make a decent iPod interface. Nice ride, my mom liked it. Steering is very good, the manual transmission is a pleasure to use.

    5. Altima - sporty ride, feels snug, V6 w/manual (6 speed...elbow Honda), dunno about DSC as part of the "sport package" though. Either do it or don't but not too much is sporty about a nanny.

    6. Sonata/Camry/Malibu
    All very nice cars. All do their expected jobs very well. All are cars that are not for me.
  • Options
    delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    You are contradicting yourself- calling the Camry/Sonata mushy ,dull.I have driven all makes and no,it is not dull or mushy.Their engines are as powerful as Honda/Nissan.
    My point is, it is much more difficult and costly to make a so called``dull`` car-- to make a car with good power,ride,comfort,low noise and excellent reliability is very tough.
    You can make an Accord with tight steering,sporty ride but these features are way too inexpensive to create.
    Making a comfortable car with so much attention to detail in every aspect is hard.
    Just drive the Camry and Accord back to back.The Camry is as powerful as the Accord.The Camry`s engine is smoother and quicker.
    These are all family sedans- that`s what they are built for.
    If I really needed a sports car--there are plenty of other options-Mazda,Civic,Mustang,Saturn Sky,Nissan 350.But that`s not the function of these cars.And sports cars need not mean-- hard plastics,,cheap fabric etc..
    Have u driven a Honda with 30k miles or more?it really is noisy,bumpy,your back and arms hurt..It is like a tin rattle box.To insulate the noise,,padding etc is needed which is again more complex and expensive.

    All in all,a nice healthy debate.Good to hear different views and opinions.Keep going.
  • Options
    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    You are contradicting yourself- calling the Camry/Sonata mushy ,dull.I have driven all makes and no,it is not dull or mushy.Their engines are as powerful as Honda/Nissan.

    What does mushy have to do with how the engine performs? I am referring to car handling, which in the Camry especially, is languid compared to the likes of Honda and Mazda. I said nothing of engine power, which is more than adequate in every vehicle mentioned here.

    My point is, it is much more difficult and costly to make a so called``dull`` car-- to make a car with good power,ride,comfort,low noise and excellent reliability is very tough. You can make an Accord with tight steering,sporty ride but these features are way too inexpensive to create.


    I disagree here. You tune one way, or you tune another. You choose to add weight (sound insulation) or save it. You choose to tune your car for an isolated ride or for good handling. Yes, these aren't cut and dry measures, as each manufacturer probably thinks they have the best "balance" while they are all somewhat, if not drastically, different. Reliability wasn't part of what I was talking about, especially since most of the cars here all do quite well in that regard. But difficult to do? Nope. Buick's been making comfy/cushy cars for a long time. Doesn't make them "better engineered" vehicles than sportier offerings from Honda, Mazda, or Nissan, but instead, different.

    Just drive the Camry and Accord back to back.The Camry is as powerful as the Accord.

    I have. My second cousin has a 2008 LE-V6:) And yes, the cars are quite similarly powered. I never contested that. The brakes in that car made me feel like I was going to rear-end someone at every stop, they were so unresponsive. You had to push through a few inches of dead travel to actually "hit the brakes." Had no steering feel whatsoever, either.

    If I really needed a sports car--there are plenty of other options-Mazda,Civiv,Mustang,Saturn Sky.But that`s not the function of these cars

    Some of us that like "sporty" can't afford a purchase for just a "fun" car, so we make the best compromise we can. I am 6'5" and needed midsize or larger. I wanted good economy (I have a 4-cylinder) with good power (8 seconds to 60 MPH according to Car and Driver is fast enough for me!). I wanted some convenience features, but don't like leather. I drive an Accord EX 4-cylinder (2006).

    Have u driven a Honda with 30k miles or more?it really is noisy,bumpy,your back and arms hurt..It is like a tin rattle box.To insulate the noise,,padding etc is needed which is again more complex and expensive.

    I drive three regularly. Two are mine, and another is an immediate family member's.
    My newest is my 2006 Accord I4 EX which I mentioned earlier. I've driven it with two of my friends on an 1,800 mile road trip from Birmingham, Alabama to Oklahoma. Perfectly comfortable. It has 45,000 miles on it right now.

    As a courier, I drive my oldest car to work. A 1996 Accord LX (4-cylinder, 130 hp) with 189,000 miles on it. Before I took ownership of the car, my now-73 year old grandmother drove it up and down the interstate for 6 years and 120,000 +/- miles. She replaced it with another Accord, not a Camry. Her current Accord (the third Honda which I drive regularly) is a 2002 Accord LX (4-cylinder, 150 hp) with 94,000 miles on it, and went on a trip to Arkansas in the summer of 2008, she and her sister (age 68) had a blowout on the way, but no problems with "hurting."

    Just thought I'd share! :)
  • Options
    stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Have u driven a Honda with 30k miles or more?it really is noisy,bumpy,your back and arms hurt..It is like a tin rattle box

    Sir:

    My experience with Hondas is as follows:
    1982 Accord from 1982 to 1995 (155k miles)
    1997 Civic from 1997 to 2000 (56k miles)
    1999 Civic from 1999 to the present (140k miles)
    2002 Accord from 2005 to the present (82k miles)

    Not once in twenty-seven years have I heard a single rattle from any of these four Hondas.

    I have driven from Atlanta to Houston, TX in a single day in our Accord with no fatigue whatsoever, despite having suffered a spinal injury in an auto accident when I was in my late 20s.

    I have to conclude that your lack of experience with Honda has led you to the belief that a car that isolates you from the road is superior. But I can assure you that the bit of extra "feedback" I receive through the steering wheel, the shifter, and the brake pedal allow me to be a better and safer driver in an emergency situation.

    You not only presume that number and softer is better, but you go further and personally insult those of us who choose cars that provide us with more road feel. If you don't wish to know what's going on underneath you, I respectfully suggest that perhaps you should let someone else do the driving. I am happy to volunteer, as I believe we will both be safer.
  • Options
    delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Thanks for sharing your opinion.
    And yes,i guessed it,right after your 1st post that u have an Accord. ;)
    But,never would have guessed 3.
    Enjoy your Accord,,keep driving it till the wheels fall off,,which according to a honda lover would be never !!! ;);) ;
  • Options
    delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Stephen987, not my intention to insult anyone.If u are offended,I apologize.We are just having a healthy debate.
    And,I guess, u did not read my 1st post.I have owned a Toyota ,honda ,nissan , saturn, dodge.So I do know how each make drives or feels .
    I just feel more comfortable in a Toyota than a Honda.
    And,I wish someone could drive me everyday.Doesn`t matter if it`s a Honda,Toyota or Yugo.Your offer accepted!!!! :shades: ;)
  • Options
    stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    And,I wish someone could drive me everyday

    That, in a nutshell, is the difference between us. And it doesn't make me a less informed or less discerning customer, as your post seemed strongly to imply. Indeed, those who view driving as an active endeavor are probably more likely to notice small differences in handling, braking, and feel.

    I enjoy driving, feeling in control and involved. That's why I tend to prefer Honda or Mazda over Toyota or Chevrolet, and why I would rather drive 1000 miles in a BMW than 200 in a Buick.

    Interestingly, I think we'd both feel pretty good in a Fusion or Milan. There's a "sweet spot" in there somewhere.
  • Options
    delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Agree totally on the 'fusion/milan' thing.
    A choice b/w Accord or Fusion - I would take the Fusion.
    Given a choice b/w Camry/Fusion - u would take the Fusion.
    Hail Fusion :sick:
    Unfortunately, that`s the problem for Fusion.People take the Camry or the Accord.Nobody wants theFusion except for rental fleets who nurse them them for 2 years and then abandon them on the used market to fend for themselves!!!!!
  • Options
    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    And,I wish someone could drive me everyday.

    This is the main difference between you (a Camry owner) and I (an Accord driver). I want to Drive, and you just want to Ride. I want to feel connected to the car, have a feel for the handling limits, and drive a little, dare I say aggressively :surprise: now and then. You would probably rather sit in the passenger seat and sleep. We could get along well, as long as you don't mind "riding" in an Accord. I could even bring a pillow along, so you can be more comfortable. ;)
  • Options
    canddmeyercanddmeyer Member Posts: 410
    I have to agree with you about the Accord. We got into a Acura TL today, and IMO it had a noisy cabin too, just like the Accord. That was my biggest disappointment. The ride was equal or better. Although the wife was impressed, I'm not sure about dumping $40,000 on a ride with more road noise than I'd like.
  • Options
    canddmeyercanddmeyer Member Posts: 410
    About the Mazda6. We finally got to test drive a Mazda6s GT today. It was good, but not great. It probably didn't help that our salesperson didn't know much about the vehicle they were trying to sell. The ride, while composed, showed every road imperfection. The biggest disappointment from the get-go was the road noise. The 18" tires made noise at all speeds, and while not overly intrusive it made itself known, even at 25mph.

    The seats were very comfortable and the trunk was cavernous. Everything about he vehicle, including the Nav, seemed to be up to snuff. Nothing stood out, but nothing lacked except for the road noise insulation. But we had test drove an Acura TL before driving the Mazda, and the Acura was definitely more car, although at $10,000 more it might be a wash.

    I haven't been in the other midsize vehicles yet, although I'd like to try the latest Malibu. But since it is the wife's daily driver, and since the wife hated previous Malibu Classic rentals, GM probably screwed itself marketing what they did in the rental market. as that's all the renters know for product representation.

    Btw, we got into a Dodge Ram 1500 today. If anyone is considering a new pickup, the 2009 Ram is pretty darn nice.
  • Options
    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    And,I wish someone could drive me everyday.

    Hmm...

    Toyota...passengers wanted?

    But you know, even as a passenger, the Camry is not desireable to me. I find the seat cushion to be too short to be really comfortable.
  • Options
    delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    If u are looking for a luxury car- go with the Lexus.Absolutely the best out there.Go in for a used one-- much cheaper plus Lexus has a bullet proof reliability.
    The ride is the smoothest of any sedan I have seen.If u are planning to spend 40k on an Acura,, u might as well buy a Lexus.As road noise and rough ride are vital to u,an Acura would end up in significant buyers remorse.

    And yes,if a smooth quiet ride is what u like,then definitely avoid the mazda.It`s even rougher and noisier than the Accord.Some people prefer it,some not.

    So go in for used Lexus if u want a luxury car and go in for a Toyota if u want a midsize sedan.For your needs,they are the best choices.

    Just,MHO.
  • Options
    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    can someone enlighten me on the similarities or differences (if any of either) between the 6-speed auto in the Malibu, et. al. and the 6-speed in Ford's Taurus?

    The internal hardware was jointly developed by GM and Ford, but they use different controllers and different software.
  • Options
    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Nobody wants theFusion except for rental fleets who nurse them them for 2 years and then abandon them on the used market to fend for themselves!!!!!

    Toyota puts more Camrys in rental fleets than Ford does with the Fusion. Ford stopped fleet dumping 2 years ago.
  • Options
    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    So go in for used Lexus if u want a luxury car and go in for a Toyota if u want a midsize sedan.For your needs,they are the best choices.

    Just,MHO.

    He might have a point; it was pointed out by a high ranking Toyota official that the number one selling flavor of ice cream is vanilla. Also, because of the number of people that just see cars as a means to an end, I would assume the market is ripe for vanilla. I just don't understand why if someone just wanted Vanilla, they wouldn't go for a '04-'07 Taurus and save the 20k on the Camry for a vacation at some isolated resort somewhere.
    Even BMW is removing the dipstick from a lot of their vehicles (the one under the hood, not the one driving :P) because no one checks oil anyway anymore.
  • Options
    delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    If ride quality,comfort and a quiet cabin are priorities then the Camry is absolutely the best.The 04-07 Ford Tauruses are not even close,plus their reliability is also a big question mark.
    I was replying to the OP`s new car options-- So a new Camry is way better than the new Fusion.
    Also,if a used car was the OP`s priority,, then why go in for a 04-07 Taurus,,when u can go in for a used 02-06 Camry with better reliability.
  • Options
    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Even BMW is removing the dipstick from a lot of their vehicles (the one under the hood, not the one driving ) because no one checks oil anyway anymore.

    It makes much more sense to have an oil level monitor that turns on if it gets low. This is done for windshield washer fluid, why not oil. Way back in 1997, my Windstar had a monitor with a light to tell you that the windshield washer fluid is low. Why do that, but continue to rely on a dip stick for oil?
  • Options
    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    If ride quality,comfort and a quiet cabin are priorities then the Camry is absolutely the best. The 04-07 Ford Tauruses are not even close,plus their reliability is also a big question mark.

    We appreciate your subjective opinion. I disagree with it, but appreciate it none the less. I just see them as equally miserable to drive I guess.

    Also,if a used car was the OP`s priority,, then why go in for a 04-07 Taurus,,when u can go in for a used 02-06 Camry with better reliability.

    Actually, it was the 02-06 Camry that caused the Camry to lose its red dot in Consumer Reports, so your information is again sounding pretty subjective. Another element in the decision process might be cost, since the 04-07 Taurus is about 1/3 the cost of the Camry.
  • Options
    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    It makes much more sense to have an oil level monitor that turns on if it gets low. This is done for windshield washer fluid, why not oil. Way back in 1997, my Windstar had a monitor with a light to tell you that the windshield washer fluid is low. Why do that, but continue to rely on a dip stick for oil?

    How much of the time was the light on? The light in my folks Caravan was on so much it burnt out. All cars have a warning for low oil pressure, some for level, but those both require sensors, those both require messages in the cluster and or warnings and telltales. There is enough data showing that warning lights, tell tales and messages are pretty worthless for anything important in the vehicle.

    I do see your argument though, since no one uses it anyway, its not like the light is going to be any less effective. How are those low tire pressure warning systems working out?
  • Options
    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually, it was the 02-06 Camry that caused the Camry to lose its red dot in Consumer Reports, ...

    I am pretty sure it was the 2007+ Camry, and especially the transmission problems on the V6, that lost Camry its "red dot" in CR. In fact, in their latest Annual Auto Issue, they still have the 2003-6 Camrys (mag doesn't go past 2003) as "red dots" for predicted reliability. Up until the Camry's 2007 MY, CR routinely gave Toyota and the Camry a "free pass" on reliability, reporting the Camry was much better than average in predicted reliability even for the first year of a new generation--before they had survey results on that model year. That all changed when CR's survey found problems with the transmission on V6 Camrys in the 2007 MY, and they took away not only the "red dot" but changed their approach on giving Toyota a "free pass" on new designs or redesigns. As of the April 2009 issue of CR, the Camry I4 is above average in predicted reliability for 2007 but only average for 2008. The V6 is only average for 2007 (but has improved from CR's initial rating of below average) and is below average for 2008. But the hybrid Camry is still rated as much higher than average in predicted reliability.

    There are now several mid-sized sedans with better predicted reliability per CR than the non-hybrid Camry--e.g. Accord, Malibu, Fulan, G6, Sonata, and Optima. For all the reasons one might buy a new Camry, best-in-class predicted reliability is not one of them.
  • Options
    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Your road test of the Mazda6 GT seems to parallel that of C/D's, where they also complained of road noise. But they tested the i Touring. I wonder how the Mazda6 does on road noise and feel with the base wheels/tires vs. 18-inchers? I've found those big wheels with narrow sidewalls tend to cause more road noise and ride harshness than taller sidewalls.
  • Options
    delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Only the V6 version of the 2007 Camry got a black dot in Cr reports.
    The 4 cyl version got a red dot.
    The Camry always got excellent reliability except the 07 Version where it got a average rating because of the V6 version.
    Still the Camry`s reliability is legendary and i say that from experience.
    I was going through the Edmunds consumer reviews and the Accord has much more complaints than the Camry.Not minor gripes-like too dull,boring or mushy,,but --would never buy an Accord,poor reliability -- and not many for Camry.
    Is it tha tmore Honda owners visit the internet?
    But from my experience too,Honda has definitely more problems than the Toyota?
    Any views on This or any evidence to oppose it?
  • Options
    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Camry always got excellent reliability except the 07 Version where it got a average rating because of the V6 version.

    Take a look the CR April issue. It shows what I reported in my last post: the 2008 Camry I4 is rated only Average in predicted reliability, the 2008 V6 is below average, and for 2009 both the I4 and V6 have just Average predicted reliability. If you consider Average to be "excellent", so be it. But that would make cars like the Accord, Fulan, and Optima "super excellent" I guess? ;)
  • Options
    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I agree with your assessment. The big picture for the Camry is reliability. There will be always be those who have a lemon in any brand, but Accord and Camry have very high retention rates. Camry sells boat loads of cars every year because for the rest of the world Toyota gives the motoring public exactly what they want.
  • Options
    delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Yes,the Camry is rated average,,I think long term 1 or 2 more years down the line,, the more specific long term reliability patterns will emerge.
    An example-- CR recommended the 04 Nissan Quest when it first came out.If u have access to CR,check out the test on 04 Quest where it says recommended.But long term 2 years down the line,the Quest was one of the worst cars and now CR lists it in the used cars to avoid.
    As for the Camry,I think it`s a minor blip on the radar, and it`ll be back at te top next year on CR.
    I think Camry buyers are mostly 40+ whereas Accord buyers are 30+.
  • Options
    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    can someone enlighten me on the similarities or differences (if any of either) between the 6-speed auto in the Malibu, et. al. and the 6-speed in Ford's Taurus?

    The internal hardware was jointly developed by GM and Ford, but they use different controllers and different software.

    That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!
  • Options
    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Is it tha tmore Honda owners visit the internet?

    I think there are way more Accord owners that visit the internet than Camry owners. Camry owners, like yourself, are a rare breed here.

    But from my experience too,Honda has definitely more problems than the Toyota?
    Any views on This or any evidence to oppose it?

    The only evidence I have is my own. I bought my first Accord in 91 (92 model), and had the car for 12 years. The only complaint I had about the purchase of that car, was the money I wasted on the extended warranty ($600). If that car had not met, and exceeded my expectations, I certainly would have not bought the 03 Accord. I've owned one Toyota, and while it was reliable (with one exception), it definitely was not enjoyable to drive. The Toyota was traded in for the 03 Accord.
  • Options
    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I agree with your assessment. The big picture for the Camry is reliability. There will be always be those who have a lemon in any brand, but Accord and Camry have very high retention rates. Camry sells boat loads of cars every year because for the rest of the world Toyota gives the motoring public exactly what they want.

    Actually, I disagree with the last part. I think the Camry sells because it provides the motoring public with what they NEED. However, WANT is a different thing, and it implies passion, which is something that Toyota has been missing since the 90s. I have never, ever heard anyone say "I want a Camry," and this is growing up and living in Southern California, arguably the Toyota capital of North America.
  • Options
    delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Thats the key issue here.They say I dont want a Camry but eventually go and buy one.
    It`s easy to say the Camry is boring,,but when the time comes to spend 20k for a car,,then u think about comfort and reliability.
    Nobody likes to spend 20k on a car,however sporty it may be ,,,which is mostly in the repair shop.
    And folks who can afford both these types-- well they are the D3 management-- who get bonuses and obnoxious salaries with people`s money. ;)
  • Options
    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Nobody likes to spend 20k on a car,...

    I agree. Especially when there are very good alternatives to the $20k car that not only cost thousands less, but have better predicted reliability, better blend of ride and handling, more standard safety features, etc.
  • Options
    canddmeyercanddmeyer Member Posts: 410
    A friend of ours has a GS350. We liked the TL better. The GS lacked rear headroom. I could sit up straight in the back seat of the TL, but not the GS350. We thought the GS350 was noisier than the TL. The Nav on the Toyota product was useless, and our friend will confirm that, plus the Lexus costs more. The TL was bigger inside, while the GS350 was cramped. Both rode nice, but I thought my parents 1999 Camry rode better than our friends 2008 Lexus.

    Thanks for your opinion, but our observations are different.
  • Options
    delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Only a biased person would say - the 99 camry is less noisy than an 08 lexus gs.
    Please get real.Its ok,if u dont like Lexus but absurd statements like these dont help anyone.
    And again nobody would say that the TL is quieter than the lexus.Not even guys who dislike Lexus.
    Please be objective in your criticism and not subjective.
    This is a forum for the pros and cons of midsize cars,,not outrageous statements like yours.thanks.
  • Options
    stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Please be objective in your criticism and not subjective.

    That's an interesting request, coming from someone who claims that the Camry is better in every way than the Accord, but ignores CR reliability data drawn from thousands of owners.
  • Options
    delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    I said the Camry is better than the Accord not just based on CR reports but on lots of other things-- comfort,ride,noise,smooth including reliability.
    U are basing your opinion on the CR average 07 camry rating.
    If u go by CR then the Accord has horrible transmission issues which is a huge problem.All 98-04 Accords have a complete black dot in trans.major.
    So, with data ,then, the Accord is a very unreliable car.
  • Options
    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Both are welcome here, last I checked. It just can't be personal. This forum has gotten shut-down before because of it.
  • Options
    delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    No,not at all,,nothing personal here.
    Its a great forum to share your views and the pros and cons of each car.That`s what makes these forums so great.
    And buyers can make a very informed guess with the info here.
  • Options
    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    All 98-04 Accords have a complete black dot in trans.major.
    So, with data ,then, the Accord is a very unreliable car.

    You really need to check your facts. The facts are that CR (April Auto Issue) shows ONE black dot for the Accord, for the 2003 V6. That's it, from 2003-8 (the years reported in the April issue). And it shows for overall predicted reliability, the Accord is at least "Above Average" every year from 2003-8. It also shows the Camry is Average or Below Average for 2008 (I4 and V6) and Average for 2007 (V6). And across the 2003-2008 MYs, CR has 3 black dots and three half-black dots for the Camry, vs. the one black dot across those same MYs for the Accord.

    So the data, then, shows the Camry is less reliable than the Accord, at least for 2003-8.
  • Options
    canddmeyercanddmeyer Member Posts: 410
    Get a life. I offer an honest opinion and you choose to berate me. READ it again....nowhere did I say the 99 Camry was less noisy than an 08 GS. I said my parents Camry rode better then the Lexus GS350.

    I never said I didn't like Lexus. I said I liked the TL better than the GS350. How's that not liking Lexus? Your biases are showing.

    I'll say the TL is quieter than the Lexus. My wife will same the same thing. The only person not being subjective and openminded is you.

    If you find this outrageous, then take your attitude elsewhere. Thanks...for nothing.
  • Options
    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Thats the key issue here.They say I dont want a Camry but eventually go and buy one. It`s easy to say the Camry is boring,,but when the time comes to spend 20k for a car,,then u think about comfort and reliability.

    I agree, if I was spending 20k on a car, I would definitely want something that meets as many of my needs AND WANTS as possible, and that is what keeps the Camry off my list.

    Nobody likes to spend 20k on a car,however sporty it may be ,,,which is mostly in the repair shop.

    So unless you are looking at an '87 Yugo, that is pretty much not the case. The new CU auto issue said the difference between a red dot and a black dot was something like 3 dealer visits over 5 years. That is definitely worth it to me.

    And folks who can afford both these types-- well they are the D3 management-- who get bonuses and obnoxious salaries with people`s money.

    Ignorance revealed. :D
  • Options
    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Wow...I wonder if the loss of sales and Toyota having to go to the Japanese government for help has spawned gorilla advertising from fan-boys on enthusiasts sites.

    I just think its cool he has a car he likes.
  • Options
    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,320
    what is the measured difference between a red dot and a black one?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Options
    maxamillion85maxamillion85 Member Posts: 78
    ...that most of you intelligent people are even responding to these comments...

    But anyway, does anyone know when the 2010 Fusion officially goes on sale? I see it all over TV, all over the internet but I dont see them at dealerships.

    Thanks in advance.
  • Options
    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That depends on the car and model year. If the black dot and red dot are adjacent in the reliability tables, then the measured difference is about 1/16 of an inch.

    :)

    Sorry, could not resist.

    The difference varies, depending on what the "average" is for which the red dot represents "much above" and black dot represents "much below". The average depends on the trouble spot and the model year. CR doesn't publish the numerical data behind its dots. It could represent a very small number, percentagewise--maybe only 2-3 percent, when the average is very high, or it could be larger.
  • Options
    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    What car has actual better reliabilty, actual better service network, actual better cushy ride and actual better motor and actually gives the car buyers what they are looking for in a car?
  • Options
    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,320
    good one, backy. :)
    now what are the quantitative differences between what is average, over average, and below average?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Options
    delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    sorry, I misread your post that the 99 camry was less noisy than the 08 lexus gs.
    I totally misread that.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles