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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    5. Fusion- I have not had any seat time in this car, so I can only tell you what I've experienced by looking at it. The interior is pleasant, but not somewhere I'd want to see every day for 4 years. Functionality is fine, but the "Ford green" LCD screens leave a dated taste in my mouth. Sorry.

    IIRC, the 2010 doesn't use the "Ford green" (Finally!). In fact, the '10 dash and IC is IMO the most modern, pleasant-looking, and easy-to-use in this class.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    Thanks to superm,,jeffyscott, elroy5, lilengineerboy, explorerx4 and others.
    Wow, all that response, and the good ideas included, just points out that many times the manufacturers don't listen. A combination of gauges/lights/sounds for anything as important as the oil, temps,etc is really what is needed, altho I think that hand reaching out and slapping some of us, sounds OK too. I too, have had about all of those methods, except the hand, and wish they could have been combined and used today. That idea of removing the stick may appeal to some, but I agree that we should be able to have some way to check appearance and smell of oil in engine and transmission too. Oh well, maybe someday someone will design a vehicle that can answer everyone's ideas...just don't hold your breath...
    besides, then we would never be able to afford it..
    thanks again to all,
    Van
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I think MB, which was the company that was mentioned as eliminating the dip stick, also equips their cars with an oil condition monitor to tell you when in needs to changed. I think this is probably more valuable than whatever you think you are learning from looking at, smelling, and maybe even tasting? ;) the oil.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Regarding the rattles, I think its mostly the Accord and the Altima ;;not the Camry.Infact the Camry is the quietest of all from my personal experience.
    But the seats- of these 3 ---Altima is #1 Camry#2,Accord# 3.Accord`s seats are real hard ,Camry`s seats do not orient properly to the spine.And Altima`s seat fabric is of subpar quality.
    Domestics generally have more comfy seats for some reason.
    The Malibu has probably the most comfy seats of all midsize sedans followed by the Fusion.
    The most comfy seats I ever experienced was in a Dodge sedan..Reliability of it--- well,,that`s a totally different issue.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I dunno - I test drove several new Camry's and they all had dash rattles, every one of them, new right out of the factory! So much for Toyota's quality claims. I think they are turning into GM. I can see them blowing it just like Detroit and Hyundai cutting more and more into their sales. When companies get fat, they get lazy which may be an oppoprtunity for D3 if they can up their product durability.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    From what I've read and experienced, both the Accord and Camry have numerous rattle complaints. From my experience, Toyota has issued TSB's for the rattles, and now all is quiet once fixed under warranty.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    Why would they need to up their product durability? People have to drive them first. Second, they need to drive them long enough to have a problem. How many miles have you put on a '06 or newer GM to be able to comment on their durability?
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    on an 06 Ford product I drive. It has no rattles or squeaks at 45,000 miles. At about 35,000 I did notice a very slight wind noise when I hit about 70MPH however.
  • Sandman6472Sandman6472 Member Posts: 6,953
    This guy is kidding...right? So far, my Civic has been the cheapest car I've ever owned and that list includes Toyota, Nissan & Mazda for the last 30 years. Don't know where this,um, poster gets his information but he's real outta touch.

    The Sandman :)

    2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    From what I've read and experienced, both the Accord and Camry have numerous rattle complaints. From my experience, Toyota has issued TSB's for the rattles, and now all is quiet once fixed under warranty.

    Honda has always struggled with squeak and rattle. From the '88 Civic to the '93 Civic to the '93 Accord to the '95 Accord to the '07 Accord, each one had numerous little drummers. All of them have been somewhere between relatively and extremely reliable (the Civics have been extremely, the Accords relatively) so the noises don't seem to affect longevity or reliability, just annoyance.

    I have noticed that seasonal weather changes exacerbate the situation, that is when it gets cooler in the fall or warmer in the spring. I could have sworn the '93 Accord was actually going to pop out its windshield one day it squeaked so much. I sold that car in '07 with 150k or something like that, so that squeak and rattle didn't affect longevity.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Hi,I was just looking at the sales figures for 2008.I thought the Accord would be #1 as it was newly redesigned.Buy the Camry outsold Accord.So,I think that trend would continue till their next redesigns come out.BTW,Mazda was a poor 52000.
    Probably the new redesign would prop up sales.
    And as any review points out,Accords always had and have more road and wind noises+rattles and squeaks compared to other models.Yes,there will be a few accord owners who have rattle free cars but that is the exception rather than the norm.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Buy the Camry outsold Accord.

    The Camry was cheaper (2-3k on the V6) and had more incentives. Most people don't care between the two so they pick whichever is cheaper. Now that the Accord is bigger, that might change the basis for some though.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    "4. Malibu- This one is also a very close contender. Some weird accents and the absence of a navigation unit are awkward. It uses rich feeling materials, but it still feels like it's a step below the others. In the right color scheme, this car is a standout in interior features and space. However, it doesn't strike me as "right." It already feels old compared to other interiors".

    ----------------------------------

    The LT with the light wood accent is the nicest in my view. The Malibu does not look "old" unless you like lots of buttons and gizmos on the dash. Malibu is all about simple and elegance which is what I prefer. Accord is a disaster.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116

    What do you mean the Malibu does not have a navigation unit. It does. As a matter of fact it is the most accurate and easy to use system out there


    It lacks a display, requires a phone call to program, and costs $30/mo on top of the vehicle price and the Onstar unit.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Since any review points out the rattles and squeaks, how about some links? I've never read a review about rattles and squeaks in Hondas, and would love to read all of them that do!

    Thanks! :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    By the way, I'm thinking the Accord sold more than thirty-seven thousand units for 2008. ;) What was the real number?
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    my apologies for the typo.It is 372000.And it is always good that there is competition.Keeps both of them on their toes.And better for us.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    Tasting ? :P yyyumm?? hmmm dunno 'bout that one. :surprise:
    van
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    ,Mazda was a poor 52000.
    Probably the new redesign would prop up sales.


    They sure hope so.

    If Mazda can get the Mazda6 to sell like the Mazda3, it would be a hit. The economy has hurt Mazda6 sales more then the competition, and this is why....

    You can get an Accord / Camry for less money then a Mazda6 because Mazda6 is loaded with extra technology Camcord does not offer. And on the leasing end, Nissan has everyone beat. The lease on the Mazda6 is not as good as the other three. Add those up, and you see why the Mazda6 has gotten off to a slow start. If the economy was normal, it would be a little easier to "sell" people on the Mazda6 and build value in what Mazda is offering. At the time of development, the economy was doing well.

    This is a bad break for Mazda because the 6 is one hell of a car.

    My solution is put a ultra aggressive lease on it to boost sales.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
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  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    May I ask what tech you're talking about? I have tested a new Mazda 6i Touring, but other than the push-start, I don't know about the "extra features" it has over Accamrytima.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I don't know about the "extra features" it has over Accamrytima.

    The standard Mazda6 i Touring (with no options) is priced similar to the Accord LX-P and Altima 2.5S, but priced higher then a Camry LE.

    Where the Mazda6 can get pricey is when you add the Convenience Package (Bluetooth phone and audio, Xenon's, dual climate, rain sensing windshield wipers, BSMS, combo leather/cloth seats, welcome lighting system) or the moon roof / Bose Audio Package w/ Sirius radio. This puts the Mazda6 i Touring around $25,400-$25,700.

    The Grand Touring is $28,390 (with all features of the Convenience Package standard) plus power passenger seat, driver memory seat full leather / heated seats when equipped with the moon roof / Bose Audio & Sirius Radio (which all are)

    The Accord does not have Bluetooth unless you get nav, xenons, push button start, rain sensing window wipers, BSMS or welcome lighting system or fuel computer or fog lights.

    Camry does not have Bluetooth unless you get nav, xenons, push button start, rain sensing window wipers, BSMS or welcome lighting system. Push button start is available on the SE I believe.

    The Mazda6 i Sport and Touring are priced ok. But, when you add the extras that Mazda is pushing, the price goes up over what a Camcord costs. The Altima can get pricey too, but, they have a wonderful lease. Mazda does not.

    Another probem is since us dealers are loaded with these Grand Touring's and Touring models with the convenience package, moon roof / Bose Audio package, people today want that for the price of a base Touring. Their arguement is " I can get a Honda Accord for $1,500 less". In this crappy economy, it's much harder to convince a customer to pay more money for these features and sell them on their benefits, especially when the Mazda6 has not earned the reputation the Accord has. While the Mazda6 is a great car, it just does not have the same stature of an Accord/Camry yet. Gen#2 is supposed to bring Mazda to that level. I think it has...but, since money does all the talking right now, it is irrelevant.

    I have lost several Mazda6 s (V6) customers to Honda and Toyota (not so much Nissan) because they again can get a loaded Accord V6 for around $28,000. Even with incentives, I can't get there with the Mazda6. So, again I hear "why would I pay $XX,XXX when I can get an Accord for $28,000?" .....my answer..."Mr. Customer, that is a great deal on an Accord, however, the Accord does not come with feature A, B and C...etc...etc...etc... and the Mazda has a sport inspired drive....yadda, yadda, yadda." Most of the time, I have the customer say they like my car better, but, since money is on everyones mind, the Accord/ Camry becomes a better buy.

    The Altima I lose on a lease every time. In my area, the Altima is a leased car. That's it. I get beat by about $20-$30/mo on a comparably equipped Altima all day long. I can't compete with that.....

    Make sense?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    BTW, what did you tink of the Mazda6?
  • Sandman6472Sandman6472 Member Posts: 6,953
    Had a chance to switch out of a Malibu rental into a Accord rental back in December and there's no doubt that the Accord is a better automobile hands down. Better ergonomics, seats, visibility, that intangible "goodness" I usually refer to. The Accord is just "BETTER"! Rented a Camry in mid January and again, it beats the Malibu in every category. Don't understand why GM can't build a car with the same characteristics and goodness as the Camcord. if they did, GM wouldn't be in the situation they are now.

    The Sandman :)

    2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)

  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    So basically it is not features that are not available in the Camry/Accord/Altima, rather than the way they are packaged, right?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    No, there are features on the Mazda6 that are not offered by all three company's The are features people want, but don't want to pay for right now. Hence the "I can buy an Accord for $1,500 less" tag line I hear a lot.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Obviously, people don't think these features are worth what Mazda charges for them. Push button start, and rain sensing wipers are features I would not pay much for either. Maybe that's why the competitors don't offer these packages. The fact that you can only get Bluetooth on an Accord with nav. doesn't seem to be pushing the customers towards Mazda 6. The Camcordima must have the features customers really want.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Obviously, people don't think these features are worth what Mazda charges for them.

    There is no way you can possibly know that. There are hundreds of other reasons why people might not choose a Mazda6 over the competition. Styling and dealer location are probably much bigger factors.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    This is a quote from aviboy,

    "The are features people want, but don't want to pay for right now.'

    What does that tell you? It tells me the features are over-priced.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I would think styling is one of the biggest reasons someone would buy a Mazda6 instead of the competition. :surprise:

    I think there's two main reasons for the relatively (key word) low sales of the 2009 Mazda6 to date:

    1) Word hasn't fully gotten out yet about how much improved the new design is over the old car.
    2) With a new design, dealers and Mazda were slow to add incentives and rebates. Those are coming on now, but still not as big as on some mid-sizers, including the Camry (not as sure on the Accord as Honda dealers do not advertise prices, except lease payments, in my area for some strange reason).
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Obviously, people don't think these features are worth what Mazda charges for them. Push button start, and rain sensing wipers are features I would not pay much for either. Maybe that's why the competitors don't offer these packages. The fact that you can only get Bluetooth on an Accord with nav. doesn't seem to be pushing the customers towards Mazda 6. The Camcordima must have the features customers really want.

    Given that hands free phone are becoming a law in many places, its kind of interesting that Ford/Lincoln/Mercury/Mazda offers that feature on almost every model while Honda and Toyota require the super-expensive packages to get that feature.

    I also think that is why the mean age for Camcord buyers keeps going up, as the older folks are pretty disinterested in new technology and mulitmedia audio systems. Folks like DeltheKing don't even want to drive at all.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Maybe Deltheking and carfanforever should go car shopping together? Or start a fleet business buying and refurbishing used Panthers (town cars, grand marquis, crown vic).
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Maybe Deltheking and carfanforever should go car shopping together? Or start a fleet business buying and refurbishing used Panthers (town cars, grand marquis, crown vic).

    Or start a new car company. Barriers to entry are relatively low right now...they could buy one of Chrysler or GM's factories and maybe an ACH facility or 2, outsource some of the design to think tanks in this country or another...
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    "Had a chance to switch out of a Malibu rental into a Accord rental back in December and there's no doubt that the Accord is a better automobile hands down. Better ergonomics, seats, visibility, that intangible "goodness" I usually refer to. The Accord is just "BETTER"! Rented a Camry in mid January and again, it beats the Malibu in every category. Don't understand why GM can't build a car with the same characteristics and goodness as the Camcord. if they did, GM wouldn't be in the situation they are now".
    -------------

    Unless you are comparing a base Malibu LS with a top of the like Accord/Camry you are way off base. The materials in the Malibu are excellent, read the reviews yourself.

    In terms of function the Malibu's simple and elegant dash design is about the best I have ever seen in a midsize. The car didn't beat out the Accord for North American Car of the Year last year for no reason!
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    "It lacks a display, requires a phone call to program, and costs $30/mo on top of the vehicle price and the Onstar unit".

    ----------

    I agree, the cost is a little high unless you already want OnStar. That said, I prefer portable TomTom units I can take on vacations. Overpaying for in-dash is just not for me.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Given that hands free phone are becoming a law in many places, its kind of interesting that Ford/Lincoln/Mercury/Mazda offers that feature on almost every model while Honda and Toyota require the super-expensive packages to get that feature.

    This doesn't seem to be hurting sales. I guess at 46, I would be considered in the Accord age group. I don't talk on the phone while I'm driving, Bluetooth or not. Don't want it, and don't want to pay extra for it.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Mazda is a lower volume car line, so it takes longer for people to catch on to their style changes. I think the 6 has another hurdle because until the recent restyle it was kind of a lower priced (out the door) alternative to Camcord. I'm thinking that unless you really like the new Mazda 6 looks, a 2010 Fusion will be a better buy (and heck, they share a lot of parts anyway).

    I'm not surprised Camry out sells Accord because Toyota is more promotional and a Camry LE is around a grand cheaper than an Accord LX-P before any incentives.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Shoot, Camry LX should be at least a grand cheaper than the Accord LX-P. The LX-P has alloys and ESC (VSA) standard--I think those are both optional on the Camry, at least for 2009. A better comparo to the Camry LX is the Accord LX, and add VSC to the Camry.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    For simplicity and elegance, I'd put the Sonata's dash over the Malibu's. Especially in base form. The LTZ's dash is pretty nice looking. The Mazda6's dash is also more "elegant" than the Malibu's, IMO.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Yeah, the Accord LX-P is better equipped than the Camry LE. In fact, I think most Accords are better equipped than comparable Camry's, but I don't think most people really care about alloys and ESC except for car buffs. Most buyers will just go by how much out the door.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Thanks for all the info in post 12014, btw... I'll just post here in response to both. :)

    I liked it. I did think it seemed more sluggish than my current Accord when merging, but it was certainly "plenty of power" for my tastes. I'm not someone who needs 200+ hp in a sub 3,500 lb car to be satisfied. It drove nicely, but honestly, wasn't terribly memorable. Sort of like the current generation Accord. It was like my car, softened everywhere by 10%.

    The test of the Mazda 6i Touring was really for my girlfriend; she nor I need or can even afford a new car right now, but the 6 is what she has her eye set on based on looks alone. The Sangria Red, 4-cylinder, moonroof. She liked how it drove, really well. She also asks to drive my car sometimes too; she really enjoys it. Then again, coming from a 2001 Saturn SC1 with a 4-sp auto (the 100hp model) like she is, who wouldn't like these cars? ;)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >Unless you are comparing a base Malibu LS with a top of the like Accord/Camry you are way off base.

    I have a suspicion the Malibu was the Malibu Classic which is the 07 and prior Malibu still produced in a spartan mode to be cost effective as a rental, lease, fleet car. The new Malibu is not being used as a rental is what I'm thinking.

    2008 and newer Malibu
    image

    Classic
    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Car buffs don't care about Stability Control, typically. Safety-minded people (i.e. parents, etc), the people who sought out ABS and side airbags 5-10 years ago, do.

    Stability Control actually impedes driving fun and spirited driving by acting as a "nanny" of sorts.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I have a suspicion the Malibu was the Malibu Classic which is the 07 and prior Malibu still produced in a spartan mode to be cost effective as a rental, lease, fleet car. The new Malibu is not being used as a rental is what I'm thinking.

    While I like the Malibu, the first one I ever saw on the road actually had the little green e sticker on it. It was a silver LS.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Given that hands free phone are becoming a law in many places, its kind of interesting that Ford/Lincoln/Mercury/Mazda offers that feature on almost every model while Honda and Toyota require the super-expensive packages to get that feature.

    This doesn't seem to be hurting sales. I guess at 46, I would be considered in the Accord age group. I don't talk on the phone while I'm driving, Bluetooth or not. Don't want it, and don't want to pay extra for it.

    That's what makes it great, everyone can find exactly what they need. It would rule it out for me (the lack of a decent iPod interface and no Bluetooth kit, well that and generally being too big and dull and too many buttons for not enough features). Its cool that it meets your needs though.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Wow, the Hyundai interior reminds me a lot of my '07 Accord. I like that the Accord is US market only so they have knobs you can actually grab, vs the Toyota's tiny ones (to meet the European homologation requirements)...at least in '07.

    I don't like the light colors on dashboards because it makes them reflect into the windshield, but I like the bottom half color of the Malibu.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yeah, I'm with you. Sorry I had to delete the post. The pics were too big for the page. ;)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    today i was sitting at a stop light and an explorer ran into my back bumper.
    damage is surprsingly light, although my car has a reverse image of their license plate painted on my rear bumper.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    although my car has a reverse image of their license plate painted on my rear bumper.

    Sorry about the mishap, although at least you KNOW the identity of the person who hit you! :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So a "car buff" can't be interested in safety, also? :P
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