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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • tim156tim156 Member Posts: 308
    But the 2010 V6 SEL comes standard with AWD.

    No it doesn't. All wheel drive is optional on the V6 SEL 3.0L and the 3.5L Sport.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You can get the SEL V6 with or without AWD, but if you choose the "SEL V6" model it comes standard with AWD. You have to get the I4 SEL and add the 3.0L engine option to get a FWD SEL V6.

    The question was why there was a $3K price difference between a base SEL V6 model between 2009 and 2010 and the answer is that base price for the 2010 model includes AWD and stability control which was not standard on the 2009 SEL V6 model.

    Just go to edmunds or kbb and see if you can find a FWD SEL V6 model to choose from.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    :confuse:

    I don't think the V6 is technically listed as a stand alone option. Anyway, according to Ford, under the Fusion V6 SEL list of features they say "Select Optional Equipment: All-Wheel Drive..."

    http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/fusion/models/
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It is if you go to an online pricing site like edmunds.com or kbb.com. For 2009 they list a "SEL V6 FWD" model and then you add options. For 2010 the only choices are "I4 SEL FWD" or "V6 SEL AWD". You have to choose the I4 SEL and add the V6 engine option.

    The only way to get a $3K difference between a 2009 SEL V6 and a 2010 SEL V6 is to compare the 2009 FWD and the 2010 AWD which would be easy to do if you were using edmunds or kbb or any other online pricing tool.

    I priced out a 2009 V6 SEL FWD with stability control and leather seats at $26,165. The 2010 V6 SEL FWD is $26,310. A difference of $145 - not $3,000. Leather seats are standard on the 2010 SEL.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    It is if you go to an online pricing site like edmunds.com or kbb.com. For 2009 they list a "SEL V6 FWD" model and then you add options. For 2010 the only choices are "I4 SEL FWD" or "V6 SEL AWD". You have to choose the I4 SEL and add the V6 engine option.

    I have to agree with the others on this one Allen. Those sites you listed are just plain wrong in presenting the 2010 models in that fashion. If you build one on Ford's own site you'll find that your choice of 2010 Fusion models is as follows (excluding the Hybrid):

    S I4 MTX FWD
    S I4 ATX FWD
    SE I4 MTX FWD
    SE I4 ATX FWD
    SE V6 ATX FWD
    SEL I4 ATX FWD
    SEL V6 ATX FWD
    SEL V6 ATX AWD
    Sport 3.5L V6 ATX FWD
    Sport 3.5L V6 ATX AWD

    There is no option for a V6 engine or AWD when you choose the SEL I4 ATX FWD and that's the way it should be.

    For the record, a base 2010 Fusion SEL V6 (that's the 3.0L V6) FWD stickers for $26310 like you mentioned. How you arrived at that through kbb and edmunds is just crazy though. And yes, the price difference between the 2010 and 2009 is mainly due to standard features on the '10 like heated leather, Sync, and AdvanceTrac with RSC. All SEL models come with those standard now. If you want cloth seats like the '09 SEL V6 had then you need to get a '10 SE V6 FWD.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I didn't say it was right or wrong - I'm just saying that's how you get the prices if you use those sites and that would explain how someone came up with a $3K price difference.

    The whole point was that there is NOT a $3K price difference between the 2009 and 2010 models for similarly equipped models.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,142
    I had a Fusion as a rental car in San Francisco this past weekend. I must say that I was pleasantly surprised with everything but the seating surface fabric. We had one of the nicer editions, but the cloth seating seemed super-cheap and didn't match what appeared to be the rest of the vehicle's quality. Overall, it was quite nice if you're a mid-size sedan person (which, uh... it seems you all are :) )

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  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Was it a 2010 or an older model?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Okay, now I understand your point.
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Member Posts: 801
    I've been planning to trade-in my '06 Mazda3 for a while, but I wanted to see the 2010 Fusion (and the 2010 Mazda3) before I made any decisions.

    The 2010 has a better looking interior made with higher quality materials. It also has the new 2.5L 4-cylinder, which is a substantial improvement over the previous 2.3L...especially when paired with the automatic transmission.

    But I think the '09 Fusion SE/SEL with Sport Appearance Package (SAP) is a better looking car overall. If I can find one with a V6 in either of my color choices (Vapor Silver or Redfire) with the SAP & Moonroof, I'm very tempted to snag and '09....
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Mazda 3 looks like a good car, but the grill is busted. What were they thinking?
    I take it the Focus will use the same platform as the 3, maybe it will look better?
  • maxamillion85maxamillion85 Member Posts: 78
    Cosigning to statements about the Sport Appearance pkg. It really adds some pizazz to the Fusion's looks. I really wish Ford would offer a SA pkg on the 2010 SE model. that would be grand.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,142
    I didn't get out the manual to check :) If I had to guess, I'd say 2009 based on the fact that it already had a few miles on it.

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  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    will actually be from Ford of Europe. It is available right now in Europe and is supposed to debut in U.S. in late 2010. The new Focus will be slightly larger. It is supposed to offer more upscale features as standard items, high quality feel/materials. From what I understand Ford and Mazda are parting ways slowly but surely. I see the Mazda Tribute going away in about 2 years. The CX7 will take its place.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, no manual should be required to tell a 2009 from a 2010--there's major front and rear styling differences.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,142
    If I'd paid a bit of attention to the exterior, I'd probably know. As it was, we got into it in a dark garage, drove around for awhile, then had the hotel valet park it until we left for the airport a few days later. I probably had eye contact with the exterior for all of 30 seconds total :)

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  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Were the interior lights blue or green? They changed to blue for the 2010 model.
  • orangelebaronorangelebaron Member Posts: 435
    the chrome strips on the front HUMUNGOUS or just big? that's another tip-off
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    will actually be from Ford of Europe. It is available right now in Europe and is supposed to debut in U.S. in late 2010. The new Focus will be slightly larger. It is supposed to offer more upscale features as standard items, high quality feel/materials. From what I understand Ford and Mazda are parting ways slowly but surely.
    _________

    The Euro Focus and Mazda3 share the same platform, and that is where the similarities stop. The US Focus does use the Mazda LF-DE engine design renamed "2.0L Duratec" by Ford.

    Technology sharing will continue for quite some time between Ford and Mazda. Their partnership is not totally gone.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So, will this new larger Focus move up to the mid-sized class?
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    Good question. With the Ford Fiesta coming in also under the Focus.. What I have read is the new Focus is just slightly larger than the present Focus. Doesn't sound like it is going to be large enough to move it up into another class. Mazda and Ford will part ways in the coming years. This will hurt Mazda more than Ford. Mazda needs the dealership/parts/support network Ford offers here in the U.S. I am a Mazda fan and would hate to see Mazda shrink its market here in the U.S. Have you ever driven a Mazda 3 and a Civic back to back? In my opinion the Mazda 3 is a far nicer vehicle, better value hands down than the Civic. The Mazda 3 is the choice economy vehicle. Well, guess we better get back to sedans..
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Have you ever driven a Mazda 3 and a Civic back to back? In my opinion the Mazda 3 is a far nicer vehicle, better value hands down than the Civic. The Mazda 3 is the choice economy vehicle.

    That is a bit too subjective. I think the interior of the Civic is very nice, the packaging is very good, and the engine is adequate. I think the Mazda3 is fun to drive, handles very well and is considerably more sporty. I also think the "hatchback" offers a lot of utility over the Civic coupe and sedan. The Civic has ABS standard on all models across the board.

    It would be a very hard choice between the sportiest models, though, the Civic SI sedan and the MazdaSpeed3.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You know, there's a discussion on these kinds of cars that is begging for more posts. :)

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef985e1/1176
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Mazda and Ford will part ways in the coming years. This will hurt Mazda more than Ford. Mazda needs the dealership/parts/support network Ford offers here in the U.S.

    And Ford needs the small engines and other mechanical components used in ALL their cars that are supplied by Mazda.

    As a result, despite Ford selling off shares of Mazda to "officially" lose the controlling stake of Mazda, they still have 13.4% of Mazda stock, and I highly doubt the partnership between Ford and Mazda will be going away anytime soon, since the component sharing goes both ways and are vital to BOTH companies.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,142
    aack! It was daytime every time we drove. Wow... I sure will pay more attention next time. No one told me about the pop quiz afterward :)

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  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Member Posts: 801
    Actually, the 2004 Mazda3, 2004.5 Volvo S40 and European Ford Focus (intro'd in late 2004) are all built on the Ford C1 platform. Ford made a very unwise decision NOT updating the U.S. market Focus when the Euro version was redesigned. The current Focus is rather sad compared to the European model...and outdated compared to competing models... :(

    But soon we'll have a new Fiesta and Focus....can't happen soon enough!
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Member Posts: 801
    Ford benefits from Mazda's small engines and Mazda benefits from Ford's larger Duractecs. The Mazda6 s and CX-9 both use Ford's 3.7L V6 (the same one you'll find under the hood of the 2009 Lincoln MKS).
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Pop quiz? It seems more like you were asked to defend a thesis!! :shades:
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Member Posts: 801
    I doubt we'll see a SAP (Sport Appearance Package) on the Fusion SE/SEL. It has been replaced by the new top-of-the-line Sport trim level....starting at $25,825! :( It does get its own 3.5L V6 263hp V6 compared to the 3.0L 240hp unit in lesser Fusions.
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    I think you are correct, based on the Ford build-your-own website. But I'll be disappointed if they don't offer the sport appearance package. I don't need or want the 3.5 V6, but I'd sure like to have the sportier suspension with the four-cylinder and a manual transmission.

    Guess I'd better hunt down an '09 in Redfire Metallic with the sport appearance package while they're still out there.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Mazda6 s and CX-9 both use Ford's 3.7L V6 (the same one you'll find under the hood of the 2009 Lincoln MKS).

    Not quite. Mazda assembles their own 3.7L in Japan now and while it does share a lot of components it is not the same engine as the Lincoln 3.7L.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Had the opportunity to test drive a few cars yesterday with my girlfriend. Drove a Ford Fusion SE I4 5AT, Moonroof and 6CD and Pontiac G6 GT V6 4AT, Moonroof, 6CD. I must say, I had forgotten just how good the Fusion is. We drove it first, and it blew me away relative to the Pontiac. The G6 had good power, but I'd take the Fusion, considering they were the same price. The Ford's steering is simply sublime, nicely weighted and very communicative, as good as my 06 Accord. The G6 also had weighty steering, but it didn't offer much more feel than the Camry I drove recently.

    The GF liked the Pontiac more, I think, based on power and looks (black on black, tinted windows, with 5-spoke chrome wheels; the fusion was beige with the 16" 5-spoke alloys), but the fact that the G6 had more than one piece of trim falling apart inside I think helped make the case for the Fusion for her. The Fusion has 25k miles, the G6, 35k.

    She's replacing her '01 Saturn SC1, whose transmission is dying at 89k miles, and wants more power, more size, for around $15k-16k. Both of these cars listed for $17,500 but were offered for $15,900.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    I think you might be able to get either one for significantly below the $15.9k mark.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yeah, the Fusion's book value is in the fourteens.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Ford made a very unwise decision NOT updating the U.S. market Focus when the Euro version was redesigned.

    Actually they made a very reasonable business decision based on the fact that American's expect small cars to be cheap. For the most part, American's value (or perhaps we can now say had valued) vehicles based dollars per pound. This is why the SUVs and trucks were big profit generators, while Focii (updated or not) were money losers.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    We've reached the point where some 2006 Fusions are now hitting the market below $10k. A couple of caveats, though: side airbags and ABS were optional at the start of production. Unfortunately the Fusion did not fare well in crash tests without the side bags.

    IIRC side airbags were made standard in '07, but ABS was optional till '08.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    To be fair to this Fusion we looked at, it was quite clean, smelled clean, hadn't been wrecked, and it was a low-mileage example, and has exactly the options she's looking for (which is essentially equipped like my 06 EX Cloth Accord). Don't know whether or not it had ABS, but glad to know it had SAB.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    BM (Before Mulally) Ford North America and Ford Europe operated as totally separate entities and only shared platforms if they felt like it. There was no corporate mandate to share platforms or even work together. At the time the Focus was losing $3K per unit and was viewed as a necessary evil to support CAFE. Mulally changed all that and now we have the Fiesta and Focus coming and they will not only be better vehicles but they'll be profitable. Ford no longer views small cars as lost leaders or CAFE boosters.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Ford no longer views small cars as lost leaders or CAFE boosters.

    This is a very good thing. Now if they can just get some of their Euro-diesels certified for the US, that will be an even better thing.

    And I suppose their next midsize sedan for the US market will share some major components with the Mondeo. As much as I like the Fusion, I think greater cross-pollination with the Mondeo will likely improve the breed further.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Yes, the next gen Fusion and Mondeo will share the same platform. The reason they don't is the same as the Focus. This should yield huge cost savings.

    More importantly, they'll have desirable vehicles across the lineup that will make it more likely for a current Ford customer to remain a Ford customer.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    More importantly, they'll have desirable vehicles across the lineup that will make it more likely for a current Ford customer to remain a Ford customer.

    This is how Honda built its (borderline fanatical) following. I would be delighted to see Ford do likewise. There will almost certainly be a new Fusion in my driveway, as soon as I get tired of my ten-year-old Civic.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Ford no longer views small cars as lost (sic) leaders

    I think that more important is that they believe that they can no longer expect customers to give them huge profit margins on trucks and SUVs. If these small cars are going to be profitable, does that not mean the transaction prices are going to have to go way up?

    If the price of a Focus gets to be too close to the Fusion, I think they will have trouble selling the Focus.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    If the price of a Focus gets to be too close to the Fusion, I think they will have trouble selling the Focus.

    That could happen even without pricing issues if this IIHS test gets a lot of play in the public's eye.

    SubCompact vs MidSize Crash Test

    :(
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Sharing platforms will cut out a lot of the cost of both the Focus and Fusion platforms, and they will now offer more options and features. A fully loaded Focus will cost the same or more than a base Fusion, but I'm pretty sure that's how Honda has operated with the Civic and Accord.

    The problem with the Focus isn't the MSRP - it's the $3K incentive that's been needed to sell them the last few years. Having a better car with more options and class leading fuel economy should eliminate those big incentives (along with right sizing production volumes). That plus the cost savings from shared platform development should easily yield a profit without raising MSRP much. Besides, it's ok to have overlap between a loaded model and the next higher base model. Doesn't Honda do that now with the Fit/Civic/Accord?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Well, of course I am talking about similarly equipped cars. If they end up with a comparable Fusion costing, say, $1k more than a Focus a lot of buyers will, I think, move to the larger car. My understanding si that this was one probelm they had the last time they tried a "world car" strategy...the Contour price was too close to the Taurus.

    If the idea is the average $3k inncentive for the focus will go away, then the average transaction price would increase by $3K....that'd be a big price increase.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,204
    some of it depends on fuel prices. i traded my '04 focus on a fusion. a couple of weeks ago, i got an 08 auto focus (kind of a joke there) as a loaner.
    when pushing some buttons, i came across the avg mpg. it read over 36.
    i thought to myself, that can't be right, so i reset it.
    when i turned it in, it read 33 mpg, which pretty much gave me something to think about.
    the car felt a lot heavier, not as much fun to drive, but the mpg was an eye opener.
    a non hybrid fusion is not going to get anywhere near it.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    A co-worker bought an 08 Focus SEL in the darker blue color. This little car is pretty nice. I was surprised how quiet it was inside. Interior was very tight and well put together. Not a bad car in my opinion.
  • mikemartinmikemartin Member Posts: 205
    When I took my RX-8 in for a TSB on the battery, they gave me automatic Focus (2008) and it the transmission was a slushbox, the seats were extremely uncomfortable, the trim was industrial grade, and the suspension was sloppy especially by Civic standards.

    However, it was great on gas and it was very quiet on the inside at speed, with well weighted steering. And even though the trim was industrial grade, fit and finish was very decent for the econobox league.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,204
    although this is really a midsize discussion board, i agree with most of what you say about the focus. 2 questions, did you check the tire pressures and did you drive it at night?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    A friend showed me her "new" (new for her anyway) 2008 Passat 2.0T mid-sized sedan this weekend. It has only 6000 miles on it and has five years and 68k of warranty left, and she got a great deal on it. It's black/black with leather and moonroof. Very sharp car, really a notch above most other cars in this class--and priced like it (MSRP on this one was about $28k). It had little touches you don't find on cars of this class such as sunshades for the back side windows and a ski pass-through under the rear center armrest. Typical VW blue/red IP; that and some of the secondary controls reminded me of the Jetta/Rabbit. Great active/passive safety and a huge trunk to boot (no pun intended). Great performance (more like that of a V6 than an I4) and handling also. I can see why MT put the Passat at the top of the mid-sized sedan heap when they tested 10 of them awhile back. But unless you get a deal like this person did (it was around $19.7k), it gets pretty pricey for the class.

    One odd thing though is that the car has a timing belt, with a scheduled replacement interval of 105k miles. (Someone who knows VWs can check me on that.) If true, that's a reasonable change interval, but it seems strange that the 2.0T wouldn't have gone to a timing chain like other VW engines have, including the 2.5 in the Jetta/Rabbit. Most of the other cars in this class use timing chains, with one exception I know of the old 2.7L V6 in the Optima.
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