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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • Sandman6472Sandman6472 Member Posts: 6,968
    Sure wish the alloys were nicer also...current one's leave me cold & the wheels make or break a car for me...they have to just "fit" the car's wheel well opening and have looks that will make folks take a 2nd look. Come on Acura/Honda...look in the ole' parts bin & come up with a better wheel design...and soon. It'll make or break this car!! Not a good sign for a car if many folks swap out the alloys from the start...and I think most will swap 'em out for something that has that "wow factor".

    The Sandman :sick: :shades:

    2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)

  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    The 2011 Sonata has its Korean unveiling!

    Pics: http://www.mt.co.kr/photonews/photonews_view.htm?no=200909171403413354

    Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP21zS_V3qE

    Some good stuff! ;)
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    And the Tucson is not too shabby either...
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    The roofline of the new Tucson looks too much like that of the Nissan Rogue. Rearward visibility may be a problem.

    But the upcoming Sonata is very dramatic--I'll give Hyundai points for that one, even though I like the conservative, restrained look of the current model.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Very impressive pictures! Didn't understand the two different center stacks??? I see one in the video but there are two different ones in the pictures.

    Also, not having followed Hyundai's history closely, have the U.S. versions pretty much mirrored the Korean version or is there usually substantial differences?? This Korean version looks like they took it up a notch compared to what we have been getting in the current Sonata here in the U.S.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Basic cars are the same (grille could wind up being different, it has been before) but the home market options will be different, also probably different engines e.g. maybe a diesel offered in ROK and maybe not the V6, or lesser emphasis on that.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Here's some more info on the 2011 Sonata. Most of the info pertains to the Korean model but there is some info on the US model, particularly engine info.

    2011 Sonata unveiling

    ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Thanks. Too bad we won't see the 2.0L here. With the 200 hp 2.4L, who needs a V6? (well, I'm sure some folks do) I do wonder if all the options listed will make it here, if so the car will be class-leading for content.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Ford has announced a 1.6L Ecoboost engine (direct injection turbocharged) that puts out the same power as the current 2.5L NA engine. Speculation is this could end up in the next gen Fusion as the base engine. According to Ford it would get 20% better fuel economy than the NA 2.5L. That could be interesting.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    I think it's a bad idea, frankly.

    Turbo engines are more complex than their non-turbo counterparts--so it takes a lot of engineering time and money to make the turbo as reliable as the non-turbo. Plus--most American drivers tend to expect very linear power delivery, and that's tricky to do with a turbo. Sure, BMW and VW/Audi have figured it out, but again, there's a lot of time and money that has to go into finding the balance.

    A 1.6 EcoBoost would be the ideal top engine in a Focus, and a bigger EcoBoost engine (maybe a 2.5 L4, or even a V6) would also make sense at the top of the line in a revised Fusion Sport (or maybe SVT or SHO), but a turbo mill doesn't make sense as a base engine for run-of-the-mill (or run-of-the-fleet) Fusion sedans.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Turbo lag and reliability problems are a thing of the past. Have you seen the torque curve on the 3.5L Ecoboost engine? You get max torque from 1500 rpm up to about 5500 rpm. Doesn't get much flatter than that.

    The reason to consider it as a base engine is 20% better fuel economy. And yes - it would make a nice performance option for a Fiesta or a mid level Focus engine.

    The 2.0L Ecoboost engine making around 250 hp will be available in the 2010 Explorer and one other vehicle which escapes me now (no pun intended).
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    But won't it still cost more to manufacture than a non-turbo of comparable output?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Probably, but what's a 20% improvement in fuel mileage worth from a CAFE standpoint?
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Not much, if folks won't buy it because it costs more than the competition. . .
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    And yes - it would make a nice performance option for a Fiesta or a mid level Focus engine.

    You think 180hp would be a mid level Focus engine? It seems that would be substantially more than has ever been offered. If so, then what would you consider for a top Focus engine?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    You think 180hp would be a mid level Focus engine? It seems that would be substantially more than has ever been offered. If so, then what would you consider for a top Focus engine?

    Its 10 more horsepower...Focus SVTs had 170. They weighed considerably less then the next ones will.

    Turbocharging is like Diesel in NA. People think of 80's K-cars when they think of Turbo and they think of '78 Oldsmobiles when they think of Diesel. Its time for some education.

    100 HP/Liter is about where a boosted engine should be, and the torque curve should be flat as Kansas.

    I am looking forward to the C-Max minivan with an EcoBoost turbo engine. I think that would be a bit above adequate, and carry child seats well.

    We will see if any of these engines come with a manual, in any of these vehicles. That will put them on my list when the time comes.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    But to answer my question, what would be a feasible top HP for the new Focus if 180 isn't enough? I guess we are straying from the main topic a bit but since Ford is bringing the Fiesta over maybe the new Focus will be classified as "midsized". ;)
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    If it works for the Elantra. . .
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    "The reason to consider it as a base engine is 20% better fuel economy."

    That does not make it a base engine, being offered in the base trim level would make it the base engine. If they do bring that engine here, assuming it costs more than the 2.5L, why would it be put in the base model, rather than putting in the cheaper 2.5 and offering the new engine as an optional upgrade?

    Does this new engine require premium? If so, that'll be another problem for it in the US, even though premium now costs only about 4% more than regular.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I was calling it a new base engine based on the power level. It's equal to the current NA 2.5L in the Fusion. Depends on how much more the 1.6L EB costs and what happens with CAFE I suppose. Maybe it will just be an option.

    And no, it does not need premium fuel last I heard.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You think 180hp would be a mid level Focus engine? It seems that would be substantially more than has ever been offered. If so, then what would you consider for a top Focus engine?

    The 2.0L EB will also be available by then putting out 250+ hp. I would expect that to be the top Focus engine although it may just be a SVT/RS edition.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I don't know. It just seems to be real overkill to think of the Focus or any similar "compact economy car" with 250+ hp. Most midsize cars did not have 250 hp V6s until just the last few years and many think that is still overkill. I realize that with all the added features both from safety and creature comfort aspects the weight of vehicles has gone up but it seems not proportionately to hp. While I like some good hp as much as the next person(maybe even more) I also value fuel efficiency.

    I would have liked the new Mazda6 a lot more if it the V6 offered a little less hp, better gearing, maintained the driving characteristics but achieved 30mpg hwy. I think that was attainable but the quest for the "most hp in class" got in the way. That would have been a killer combo IMO.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The European Ford Focus RS actually has close to 300 hp and 300 lb/ft. The revoknuckle suspension supposedly eliminates torque steer. There is no reason they can't have fuel efficient versions and high performance versions of the same vehicle.

    And we are getting the Euro Ford Focus here in a couple of years.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I see I was assuming it would have more power than the 2.5. But it's gotta be higher torque, anyway...right? or at least a lower rpm for peak torque and a flatter curve.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230

    I would have liked the new Mazda6 a lot more if it the V6 offered a little less hp, better gearing, maintained the driving characteristics but achieved 30mpg hwy. I think that was attainable but the quest for the "most hp in class" got in the way. That would have been a killer combo IMO.

    If that's the case, then check out the 6i. Despite the 4-cylinder, it's still one of the highest-HP 4-cylinders in the class (and pulls similarly to the last-gen V6 IMO), it'll get an easy 30 MPG on the highway, and IMO it handles better than the current-gen V6 (due to better weight distribution).

    As for the V6, I'd say that a vast majority of V6 owners care more about the power than the fuel economy, and the last-gen v6 was SORELY lacking in that department, with a paltry 212 HP compared to the 265-270 of the competition. I'm sure those numbers turned off a lot of potential buyers after 2005.

    In this segment, the 4-cylinder has to offer modest power with good fuel economy, while the V6 is for the minority that prefers the power and smoothness of a V6 over mileage. As confirmed by sales, there are many more of the former than the latter, and that may only get more lopsided as time goes on.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I think the torque is about the same, but the torque curve might be flatter.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I have a 6i and have driven both the new and old 6i and 6s. There is still a large difference between the new 6i and the old 6s IMO. It's not just hp but the smoothness in which one can attain speed that makes a big impact on me. I just wish someone that wanted the smoothness of a V6 didn't have to suffer so much in mpg. I believe the Sonata is rated at 29mpg hwy which isn't bad. My '93 3.8 V6 Buick had plenty of power(170 I believe) and would easily do 30mpg cruising and that was with the lower "sport" gearing. And before everyone has fun with the Buick pls notice I put sport in quotes. It certainly wasn't a rocket but had all the power needed.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    An article on autoblog reports that the 2011 Sonata will not be offered in V6 form. It states that only 15% of Sonata sales were of the V6 variety and the new direct injected(200hp) 4 cyl will be it.

    I haven't heard any mpg #s regarding this 2.4liter direct injected engine but assume they will as good or better than the current 4cyl offering plus the extra hp. Kind of a win-win in my book.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I wouldn't mind if there were no V6 in the 2011 Sonata, but I don't think that will happen. Almost all of Hyundai's competitors offer a V6 in their mid-sized sedans in the US. and Hyundai is reportedly going for the jugular with the new Sonata. So I expect there will be a V6 and it will be more powerful than the current 3.3L unit. I saw one report that mentioned a 3.5L V6.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Seems to me that the Sonata V6 has enough power to justify it's continued existence,but the KIA Optima would do very well to dump that 2.7 V6 which serves no purpose at all since it has only marginally more power then the 2.4 in line engine.A 200 HP 4 cyl getting 34-25 MPG highway it would be a dream for me.If somebody NEEDS more than 200 HP in their car,they are planning to break the law.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    If somebody NEEDS more than 200 HP in their car,they are planning to break the law.

    Yeah, that's right. I'm planning to break the law with my 220-HP Mazda6 since I "NEED" the extra power for those short on-ramps onto freeways or for passing on a two-lane...

    Please...

    I said it before and I'll say it again: Automakers wouldn't offer a V6 option (with over 200 HP) if nobody wanted one. I like a V6, since they're generally smoother both at idle and at speed compared to a 4-cylinder, the extra power is nice to have when it's needed, and if driven conservatively, 28-30 MPG is easily achievable, something that I can get, and something that I know some 4-cylinder drivers don't.

    And by the way, I've seen a lot of Civics (well beneath 200HP) and other 4-cylinder vehicles that break the law quite frequently...
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    It's time for the mid-cycle freshening for the Altima, and despite Nissan's tight-lipped policies, they leaked a photo of the '10 Altima when announcing a recall.
    image
    ...And the "official" image from Nissan (so far):
    image

    Is it me, or did they take a step backward when they made it look like the last-gen Maxima?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I read somewhere where the Optima is going to get the 3.3 next year along with it's redesign. Edmunds has some spyshots but I'm not real good(or fond of) looking at cars all masked up. I think both of these cars, Sonata and Optima are going to be very interesting for the 2011 model year. They've been a little behind in the styling dept which I feel has been holding them back.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Other than different fog lamps, what's the change?
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    1. I don't think it looks like the last gen Maxima.
    2. changes: bumper, headlight, hood, grill.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    1. I don't think it looks like the last gen Maxima.

    Really?

    image
    image
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Holy cow - that IS the last gen Maxima!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    My thoughts exactly. Doesn't get much closer than those two.
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    Well, the only thing I can say is that if we think the 2010 Altima looks the same as the last gen Maxima. I can also say that the 2007-09 Altima looks the same as the last gen Maxima b/c the only thing that is similar to last gen Maxima is the headlight. The new hood on the 2010 is the same as the hood on the current Maxima or the G. The grill is the same except they re-design the line.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Say what? :confuse:
  • jlindhjlindh Member Posts: 282
    It's called gibberish.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think Nissan has gotten tired. For all the hoopla over their CEO, I think he is showing that he really was more a success due to timing. Now he appears to be similar to all of the rest.
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    I think Nissan has gotten tired. For all the hoopla over their CEO, I think he is showing that he really was more a success due to timing. Now he appears to be similar to all of the rest.

    Well, we should see in the near future. I think the 2010 Altima has nothing special w/ the design. They should use the L shape headlight like the Z and Maxima. :cry:
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I drove by an Enterprise lot today and it looks like Nissan is a hanger queen. I told you, they've become tired and need some major redesign.
  • design_studentdesign_student Member Posts: 2
    Hi all!
    I'm a university student studying transport design in the UK, my latest project is to do a facelift of the Mercury Milan 2006-2009 model, which is annoying considering the 2010 model doesn't look too bad!
    I was just wondering what everyone in this forum looks for in a sedan for work and family use, but also your view of the direction of design for American sedans!
    Cheers
    I look forward to receiving your comments! :)http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/townhall/webxicons/- emotorcons/emo_smiley.gif
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    That is one tough question. It's all a matter of taste after all.Like for instance,I like the way my KIA looks,and others think it's ugly.As far the direction of American designs...I hate the Cadillac squarish look,but like the Buick.Some of the Ford and GM sedans look pretty good,but I personally think the Chrysler products are very unattractive. The one American sedan which I consider to have the best styling is the Chevy Malibu.The Fords and Mercs are OK,but I hate their Grilles.I hope this helps you a little.Maybe you're looking for more technical opinions?
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    I think the nose and tail of the Milan are fine--but the greenhouse area looks dated. I would reject current trends and go for a taller roofline and/or a lower beltline, but without making the rear window any more vertical. The result might look too much like a Cadillac DTS to some people, but I think it would help distance the Milan from other midsize sedans, in a good way. I'm tired of every car looking like it has gun slits for windows.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    That is a very tough goal, Ford stepped up with the 2010 and made it look really good. In fact the Sport version is badass from the front. If you can keep the lines of the front, but change the grill to be less intense, that is a lot of chrome, that would be about the only improvement I can see for the Fusion. One thing that makes it very hard to design a car is all the safety factors involved. The doors need to be a certain height to provide enough side impact protection to meet the high standards, which gives the impression of small windows. Aerodynamics plays a huge part in car design, and trying to make something with a low COD and yet look nice is extremely difficult. They tried with the 2010 Prius, but IMO failed, it is still an ugly slug.

    The trend I see today in car design is they all look very much alike, it is hard to tell at a glance between a Honda, a Toyota, a Ford, and some of the European cars. They all follow pretty much the same basic car design, heck the Fusion and Camry are damn near twins, the only things setting them apart is the front and rear lights and grill. The body lines nearly match.
  • Sandman6472Sandman6472 Member Posts: 6,968
    Great redesign on this car...if it were a bit smaller & less $'s, would be an excellent value. Too bad Ford can't take it's styling and apply it their Fusion/Milan twins...it would be a much better car going against the Malibu. Co-worker bought a blue LT this past weekend & I was truly impressed...the only American cars I'd ever consider would be the Malibu LT or the new Taurus were I in the market at this time. Looks like we can make some decent competition for all the foreign brands if need be...so come on Detroit...get working & maybe this diehard foreign buyer will finally get to go American in the future!

    The Sandman :sick: :shades:

    2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Looks like there's a spot open in the gallery to the right. Which car should fill it? The new-for-2010 Legacy? Or maybe the Optima, freshened for 2009 with a new design coming for 2011?

    Or maybe the Galant, Sebring, or Avenger?.... nah.

    Just noticed the Sonata is now the 2011 model. Isn't it kinda strange to put a model there that can't be purchased (at least not in the USA) for several months, so there's no pricing or reviews and very little info in general available?
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