Midsize Sedans 2.0

akirby · October 2009

Yes it is.

plekto · October 2009

On paper not much has changed, but on the road there's a world of difference. The CTS handles vastly better and is finished to a level not available from GM in '05.

It's slightly better, and mostly due to better brakes and tires than anything else. The upgraded suspension option on the top end Buicks and the Cadillacs made them actually better cars by far to drive than the competition(European makes aside, of course, but then again 10-30K more money kind of SHOULD be better...).

It's like comparing the Lucerne CXS versus the competition it's vastly, no WORLDS better than the non CXS mode(stabilitrak/magnetic suspension/V8/etc).

It handles great for its size, has tons of torque, and is a beautiful car that reminds you of what Mercedes was making in their mid to late 90s S class. Which is high praise indeed if GM can equal Mercedes older models in ten years time, give or take. That they decided to update it and make it the basis for the new LaCrosse is a good thing. Just PLEASE get/try to top end suspension and engine version. It's well worth the time to find one.

BTW, the LaCrosse CXS with the suspension upgrade is about 30K if you haggle and after rebates/etc. It's nearly the same car to drive as the CTS for less money(and dare I say, nicer interior and exterior as well)

explorerx4 · October 2009

i found the article. crazy guy. another reason not to buy a car that was a rental.

colloquor · October 2009

Backy, you may have her possibly re-think the Altima, especially due some of the stories that exist within the Nissan forum regarding the CVT. Nissan's continually improving the transmission, but a number of posts relate to continued problems with the CVT. When it's time for replacement - some have been as early as 50K or less - it's not a rebuild, but a $4K to $5K replacement. No problem during the warranty, but a big problem out of warranty.

backy · October 2009

I don't have to rethink anything... I'm not the one buying the car. I'm not crazy about the Altima myself, but my friend seems to like how it drives. Maybe she'll really like the Fusion when she goes to drive it.

Question: are these reports for the CVT on the Altima for all engines, or just the V6? I always wondered if a CVT could handle the kind of power that the Altima's V6 puts out.

Also, I expect if this becomes a major problem, Nissan will have to do something like extend the warranty on the CVTs, otherwise it won't sell many CVT-equipped cars.

explorerx4 · October 2009

i was going to work with you on hyundai being a competitive vehicle until you said they took no money.
maybe you missed the millions in tax breaks from the state to build there.

m6user · October 2009

Good point! Sen. Shelby conveniently seemed to forget that when he was putting the auto execs through the fifth degree.

m6user · October 2009

I wonder about the CVT handling a lot of hp/torque as well cause they do feel like a rubber band sometimes. '10 Legacy I4=CVT. '10 Legacy 6 cyl=reg slushbox. You'd think if the CVT was the answer Nissan would use them in their Infiniti line but they are putting 7 speed autos in those cars with over 300hp. Could be that the Infiniti buyer might not like a CVT but you have to wonder.

8babies1dog · October 2009

Good point, at least we agree on Hyundai being competitive. Now about the money
issue. Do you know that mostly all states offer tax break incentives to anybody
willing to move their business there not just car makers, any legal business bigger
the better. Cities do the same thing and have special comities that go around the
world to negotiate deals to have them come here, it is even very competitive between states. Case in point Louisiana and another state just went toe to toe to
get a very large overseas steel company to come here. Hundreds off millions of
tax breaks were offered by those states. A tax break will not put cash in the hand
to get a business started nor will it bail it out. As you said tax break from the state
not our tax $. Not even close to the 25 (billion+) our $ to keep failing car co. afloat!!

stephen987 · October 2009

The Taurus SEL and the LaCrosse CXL are priced within a couple hundred dollars of each other. The two have EPA fuel economy within 1 mpg of each other. Their curb weights differ by four pounds. Yes, the Taurus is six inches longer and three inches wider than the LaCrosse, but the EPA lists both as having an interior volume of 102 cubic feet. They are also US brands with a somewhat conservative image. In my mind, and in the minds of a lot of customers, the two vehicles are quite comparable.

Oh, wait a minute--the Taurus has a much larger trunk. So obviously no one will cross-shop the two cars, because the Taurus is a "LARGE" car.

Except that according to both Ford and Edmunds, they do. For the link-impaired, the article referenced at AutoObserver notes that the two vehicles most likely to have been considered by buyers of the 2010 Taurus are the 2010 LaCrosse and the 2010 Fusion.

backy · October 2009

Both the LaCrosse and Taurus are "large" cars. As in, not mid-sized sedans.

But maybe we could talk some more about the Prius, or Elantra or Sentra. All have mid-sized interiors. Yes, let's have a big thread on those why don't we? Or we could talk some more about the Outback, or even the RX-8. The new E Class is pretty nice too, maybe we could compare that sedan to the Accord, Camry, Altima, etc.

explorerx4 · October 2009

so you are about drawing the line at the state border?
i don't buy that for a minute.
lost money still comes out of someone's pocket.

rj123456 · October 2009

Back in the eighties 4 average Americans probably weighed 600 lbs now its 800 lbs

8babies1dog · October 2009

Excuse me Mr. or Miss. explorerx4 sorry to have ruffled your feathers, not intentional I assure you. We must be on a different page in the book for some
reason. Where do you see a line drawn at any border, I didn't isolate any state or
city that offers tax break incentives, and no specific type company was left out to
get these incentives.
You don't have to buy anything not for a minute or hour or second, there is nothing here to buy. This is an open forum about midsize sedans not ebay. No money comes out of anyone pocket and no money is lost unless that Company decides
to open somewhere else, then your state, county or city, gets absolutely NOTHING.
So you have just lost maybe thousands of jobs for your area, people who need work
to get off unemployment, to buy food for their family and of course to pay (you guessed it taxes) plus w/ the money they now earn they can buy more stuff and
again pay more taxes, just like we all do, at least the ones that or lucky enough to
have that company near to work for. The tax break that company's gets don't mean
tax free, they still have to pay a certain % of local and state taxes on what they have to buy to operate, so more taxes for the area again. The product this company
makes will sell and here we go again more sales tax f/ your area. Now what if the
company has a profit on those sales, "not more taxes" yep more taxes. If they ship
out anything, mail anything, pay utilities, or a dollar is exchanged coming in or going out someone has to foot the tax bill, money earned money spent, tax is paid.
What a deal for the tax collector, their investment, wine and dine that company and
pray they come. That is where the money comes from to give to the corporations
that can't manage their money, such as major car makers, billions on top of billions
many billions of our hard earned money in hopes to stay in business for several
more months then go bankrupt anyway. Was that the lost money you were referring
to? O I must have miss understood! SORRY:

acdii · October 2009

Actually the reason sales were so bad on the 500 was the lack of power and the CVT transmission. They dropped the 500 name, re-badged it the Taurus, dropped a larger engine and automatic into it and did the same for the Freestyle. I liked the Freestyle, but didn't like the lack of power. The 500 was actually a very nice car and got good MPG, but the lack of power killed it.

I sat in a Taurus SHO that was in the dealer showroom when I was buying the Fusion, and that car is awesome, for $45K it had better be. The sleek design of the dash and how it wraps around like a cockpit, the seats are very comfortable, sitting in the back was like sitting on a sofa, you sank into the seats, and the trunk is massive, it is bigger than the Crown Vic trunk. Though not as big as a Grand Marquis or Town Car, it is still larger than most, but I wouldn't class it as a Full SIze, as it is still several inches narrower than the Full Size cars, and not as long, and it is FWD. To me a full size car is RWD as that is what I grew up with, big station wagons, RWD, V8 engines, at least 5 feet wide inside between the doors. There aren't any like that made except for the GM and TC. The Taurus is high end midsize, but not full size. The Prius is not midsize, not yet at least, it is still a compact, and only slightly larger than a Corolla inside. The Fusion, although slightly less interior room inside than the Camry, actually feels roomier due to its layout.

And for those who think the Fusion is mediocre, hah you couldn't be more wrong. Chevy has a LONG way to go before they can get up to the Fusions standards of quality, fit and finish, and they are not that good looking.

Look at the side bar, with the exception of the Malibu because it has only 1 review, the Fusion is on top, 60 reviews with a 9.3, Camry with 50 reviews only an 8.6, Accord only has 2 reviews, so discount that one as well, and the Aura, 16 reviews and only a 7.4. These aren't magazine reviews, these are owner reviews, which matter more to me as they are more honest since money isn't traded as can happen with a Magazine review.

akirby · October 2009

Lots of companies get tax breaks to create jobs for the local residents. The state, county or city gets increased tax revenue (property, sales, ad valorem, etc.) from the added jobs so it's a win/win all the way around. This has nothing to do with the auto industry specifically nor is it at all related to government loans or bailouts.

And while the Taurus and other cars may not be as large as the crown vic, town car, DTS, etc. - they're about as large as cars are likely to be over the next few years. The days of the land yachts are over.

m6user · October 2009

The Taurus is high end midsize, but not full size.

I don't really understand your insistence that the Taurus is a midsize sedan. Direct quote from Ford's website on the new Taurus: "It's America's Most Innovative Full Size Sedan". In a subnote it says "Class is full size non-luxury sedan".

It's longer, wider and taller than the Chrysler 300(a rear wheel drive full sizer) as well as wider/higher and weighs more than a Cadillac DTS. Like I saw on ESPN last night. C'MON MAN! Just because it doesn't fit the perception of full size car from your youth doesn't change the facts.

I also don't put as much faith in the consumer reveiws on the sidebar as you do. I personally have always been quite enamored with my new vehicle choice for the first couple of months until I get used to the new car smell and start noticing little things that may bug me. So I think they are often(not always) biased from an ego and money invested standpoint.

As far as I know it has never been proven that money has been passed for a good review in any of the major auto magazines. Do auto companies advertise in these mags? Sure, but I haven't seen any connection between the amount of advertising dollars from a particular manufacturer and the results of a professional review. That would kill that magazine, I would think, if it was proven. So anyway, if you do know of any proof to the contrary, it would nice of you to enlighten us.

stephen987 · October 2009

The Taurus is indeed a foot longer than a Sonata or Camry. But the LaCrosse splits the difference almost exactly. The LaCrosse and Taurus are comparably priced and equipped--half a step beyond the Camry/Sonata/Accord.

I'm not sure I consider them "full size," though--just as I don't really think of the Avalon and Azera as "full size." It may be that we're in the middle of a redefinition of that segment. For now I will privately consider them as "relaxed fit midsize," but I won't press the point beyond the end of this post, since it evidently makes Backy extremely angry.

The Grand Marquis is a foot longer than even the Taurus, and that's still what a lot of people think of when they contemplate a "full size" sedan. Of course, it's also a dated and irrelevant design, and on the verge of extinction. With the upmarket migration of the LaCrosse, the full-size FWD Lucerne also makes relatively little sense in the market, leaving the DTS as perhaps the only FWD full-size sedan--and its buyers are a dying lot.

WIth this in mind, the Taurus and LaCrosse may well be the new "full-size," with the upcoming Regal becoming Buick's entry into the midsize market.

With that in mind, I think we have much to look forward to in the next couple of years in the midsize market--if GM survives long enough to bring the Regal to market.

m6user · October 2009

The Grand Marquis is a foot longer than even the Taurus

9.1 inches but who's counting.

And I will, again, say that Ford calls it a full size, EPA calls it a full size, I call it a full size and I believe the average consumer would call it a full size. So for the sake of this discussion thread....I'm through talking about the Ford Taurus.

Now the Lacrosse, as you say, may be a little harder to define. It has moved into near-luxury market positioned against the Lexus ES350 and has pretty much taken the place of the Lucerne. So I'm not sure it fits into the mainstream of this forum. The old Lacrosse certainly did but the new one has grown significantly in size and price.
I agree with you as to the Regal. That may very well be a good fit for this discussion.

akirby · October 2009

The main point is that the Taurus and other similar vehicles are larger than the normal midsize sedans so they should be in a different class. The Accord is in between. The old definition of full size sedan just isn't applicable anymore.

colloquor · October 2009

Backy - Evidently you misread my post, I didn't say "you" needed to rethink anything, only your friend. Sorry...

This appears to be across the board, as the CVT with the 1.8L in the Versa has been a problem too. And, depending on the vehicle, it's very difficult to buy a 6-speed manual without a special order. For example, my next door neighbor's daughter has been looking for a Cube with the manual, and only 4 exist in a 200 mile radius. It appears their stocking percentage for manuals is less than 5%.

I've driven the CVT in the Altima, and in the Murano - both rentals, and I like the transmission. But, the continued horror stories of major replacement costs, and rumors of expensive periodic fluid changes scare me away from one for my own use.

8babies1dog · October 2009

Thank you very much (akirky) you have summarized my sentiments exactly!!!!

It is a fairly large car for today's standards, according to FO MO CO specs:

Length 201.8"
Width 74.5"
Height 61.5"
Weight 3741
Interior volume 108.0 cu ft (not 101 that someone mentioned)
Cargo space
space 21.1 cu ft with seats in place
total interior 129.2 cu ft

Just for comparison the 2009 Sonata is EPA rated large mainly because of the
interior volume which is 105.4 cu ft passenger and 16.4 cu ft cargo total interior,
121.8 one of the largest in it,s class not length or width but weight and Int volume.
Substantial difference, I compared them to each other to make a purchase. Thanks
for the reply.

m6user · October 2009

Something strange here. I just went to the Ford site and copied(cut and paste) some specs for the Taurus as follows:
Wheelbase (in.) 112.9
Length (in.) 202.9
Height (in.) 60.7
Width (in.) (excluding mirrors) 76.2

These are the same specs Edmunds has on it's site for the it. I couldn't find the weight on the Ford site but Edmunds has it at 4015 lbs. These numbers are quite different than yours. Are you sure your numbers were for the Taurus?

stephen987 · October 2009

@m6user: Yours are also the stats I found at carsdirect.com. That site lists the Taurus as having 102 cu ft of interior volume (identical to LaCrosse, very close to Sonata and Accord) and 20 cu ft of trunk volume.

explorerx4 · October 2009

i hope it works for hyundai and the local population and they
avoid vw's mistakes

i wanted an awd mid size, so I had a pretty short list, veering back toward topic.

stephen987 · October 2009

Good point--awd midsize sedans are in short supply. Fusion, Legacy, um. . . am I missing any?

m6user · October 2009

Yeah, the new Suzuki Kizashi that we were talking about has an AWD version.

berri · October 2009

Does it seem like a lot of Suzuki dealers have folded?

8babies1dog · October 2009

Yes you are both right, but in this case I kind of wasn't wrong. What I did do wrong
was to compare apples to oranges, my figures came from the side by side comparison with the (2009) Taurus se fwd, and the Sonata 2009 se fwd. You are
also right big difference in 2009 Taurus vs 2010/2011 Seems the exterior grew while the interior shrunk. My bad, sorry for the confusion

backy · October 2009

How so? There weren't many to begin with!

akirby · October 2009

There are plenty of suzuki dealers. But most models only have 2 wheels.......

backy · October 2009

Oh, yes, right. I was under the impression we were talking about CARS. :P

explorerx4 · October 2009

that's about it, other than moving up in price.
i started out looking at small suv's, but we have a few of those already.
another feature that was important to me was that i fit in the back seat.
role reversal with the kids.

Kirstie_H · October 2009

Here's your chance 2010 Fusion owners - www.fusion41.com

Eight 2010 Fusion owners from throughout the country will be selected to participate in the Fusion 41 program. They will be chosen based on their passion for Fusion and their ability to share compelling information about the vehicle on the Internet. Applicants must have a current Facebook profile with a minimum of 100 friends and an active photo collection.

Each of the eight Fusion owners will then choose four friends or family members to join their team, and each team will be given a 2010 Ford Fusion or Fusion Hybrid to drive in an automotive relay race. To complete the relay, each team member must fulfill an assigned task within 41 hours, tracking competitive variables such as miles driven, stops made or the number of passengers picked up.

The winning team will be chosen based on their ability to complete the activities and provide proof by uploading photos and videos to various social media sites, including Facebook.

The Fusion owner of the winning team will have their vehicle paid off, and team members will win free gas for one year.

lewie1 · October 2009

I have a 1990 Passat 2.0L and the rad fan keeps on running,It won't shut off. What can I do to fix this problem before it becomes another issue.

phaetondriver · October 2009

First thing to do IMHO is replace the thermostatic switch which sends power to the fan when the radiator is hot and shuts it off when the temperature drops. These are not expensive and there are after market versions you can use if you can't find the factory unit. Some just clip into the radiator grills, some go into the water jacket on the intake manifold.

GL

vanman1 · November 2009

The North American Buick Regal will be shown in LA next month. The car is a big huge GO and should be an amazing car.

smarty666 · November 2009

well I think all of the 2010 models are out now so I was hoping to get everyone's comparisons and opinions on the changes, for the good or bad on the various 2010 mid-sized sedans:

for me, I like some of the changes they made to the 2010 Nissan Altima: they improved the quality of the interior fabrics and certain interior materials for the better and I for one am glad to see that you now can get a rearview camera without having to buy a pricy technology or navigation package which jacks up the price of the car

so what is everyone else's opinion on the altima and other mid-size sedans for 2010?

acdii · November 2009

The Fusion has the camera in the rear view mirror for the non nav cars that have BLIS. I seldom ever use it, more of a novelty for me. I use the mirrors for backing, and the sensors are very sensitive to something as small as a cat being behind the car. I also notice if you fixate on the backup cam, you could easily hit something on the side, so they aren't all that great. Then again, I can also back an 18 wheeler into a dock on the first try, and most drivers can't do that.

smarty666 · November 2009

actually I agree with you to a point about the rearview camera, while I do enjoy it and use it quite often, it still is no substitute for looking in the mirrors and physically turning your head to check and make sure no one is there because the camera can't show you everything: the camera is really only handy if your backing into a tight parking spot, such as in a parking garage or outside lot, other than that it is just a helpful aid;

I think the rearview cameras are more helpful on bigger SUVs then sedans, especially ones that have all the rear windows tinted because it is much harder to physically see out the back of a SUV with tinted window because they have more blind spots then a four door sedan with no tinted windows

m6user · November 2009

Here is a quote from an article on Augtoblog.com.

"When the swoopy new 2011 Sonata goes into production at Hyundai's plant in Alabama early next year, it won't offer a V6 engine anymore, but it will get the company's first ever direct-injected engine. This week in South Korea, Hyundai took the wraps off its 2.4-liter Theta II GDI four-cylinder. Like similar engines from other automakers, Hyundai's engineers have taken advantage of the charge cooling effect of direct injection by boosting the compression ratio to 11.3:1. As a result the engine produces 198 hp and 184 pound-feet of torque at 4,250 rpm in Korean spec."

Take it for what it's worth. Backy said it wouldn't happen but this looks a little more definitive. I have a hard time believing they would give up the V6 as well as all the other midsize cars have a V6. Maybe they are trying to steer the power hungry to their more expensive offerings or, heaven forbid, are actually trying to start a trend instead of following them!

stephen987 · November 2009

I suspect that one of two things will happen: (a) they'll end up steering V6 customers into a next-generation Azera, which may well be just a stretched version of the 2011 Sonata, or (b) they'll roll out a V6 for the 2012 Sonata, probably in January of 2011.

I would have no trouble with the power of the 2011 Sonata--it's very close to the output figures for my 2002 Accord V6. But the midsize sedan market in the US is full of people who, despite all evidence to the contrary, are convinced that a four-cylinder midsize car must by definition be underpowered. Many of those folks haven't driven one since about 1992, but they're still convinced.

fushigi · November 2009

It's not necessarily about power. The added power of a V6 is nice but for me it's the NVH. Make, model, and engine size doesn't matter; every single 4 cyl I've ever driven or ridden in - Asian, domestic, martian, old or recent - has had NVH levels I personally find unacceptable. Be it buzzing at higher revs or roughness at idle, I simply don't like them. And as I can afford to avoid that problem by buying a V6-equipped machine, I will do so. Apparently not from Hyundai, though (nor from Mitsubishi BTW as they've dropped the V6 option from the '10 Galant).

mickeyrom · November 2009

What is NVH?

m6user · November 2009

I believe it's something like noise, vibration and harshness or something like that. Here's some more info on the new engine.

With the output of 201 horsepower at6300rpm and 25.5 kg.m at 4250rpm, the all-new 2.4L Theta II engine is far ahead of the rest of the class, surpassing all American and Japanese competitors.

This would put it ahead in I4 hp in the midsize class including the 200hp Passat.

It would really be interesting to see this engine in a new redesigned Elantra or even the current Forte. They would be hot little buggies.

tenpin288 · November 2009

A couple things to keep in mind regarding this move,,,

1. Hyundai has stated that they want to lead the industry in fuel economy by the middle of the next decade. (around 2014-15 if memory serves)

2. Federal mileage regs are going to start going up in a few years and Hyundai wants to be ahead of the curve.

Also, there are rumors that the US Sonata may get a turbo version of the new I4 that should be good for 250 or so ponies. Good for power and economy too.

fushigi · November 2009

"I believe it's something like noise, vibration and harshness..."

Correct. How load the engine is, how buzzy it can get, how the sound reverberates in the cabin, the feeling of vibrations from the engine intruding into the passenger space, if the engine sounds like it's thrashing, etc.

m6user · November 2009

Doing a comparison between a 09 and 10 Altima on the Edmunds "comparator" I noticed that the '10 Altima v6 is now "regular unleaded" and mpg has gone up 1 in both cty/hwy.

Does anyone know if that is a typo? The hp/torque is still rated the same.

backy · November 2009

Six weeks ago I was skeptical that Hyundai would pull the plug on the V6 in the Sonata in the power-mad USA, but after seeing other automakers go the same route (e.g. BMW and the new 5 Series), it makes more and more sense. With the new FE regs, I wonder how long it will be before we see other automakers follow suit? e.g. will we see a V6 on the 2013 Accord?

tenpin288 · November 2009

Here's some more info about the new I4 from Hyundai. Very impressive!

http://www.hyundai-blog.com/index.php/2009/11/17/hyundai-introduces-201-horsepow- er-24l-theta-ii-gdi-four-cylinder-engine/

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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