Midsize Sedans 2.0

berri · November 2009

I just read that Motor Trend named the Ford Fusion as its Car Of The Year.

backy · November 2009

Wow, must be a slim year!

And I mean no offense to the Fusion on that. I think it's an excellent car. But c'mon, it's a refresh, with the hybrid option added. But if you look at the other 2010 models, I guess there isn't anything that stands out. The new Golf has little new under the skin (and even the skin is familiar), the new Prius is not MT's cup of tea and isn't that much better than the old one, the new Legacy is a nice car, but pales in "significance" (big criterion for MT COTY) to the Fusion in the marketplace, and so on.

Some years there's lots of great new cars, other years... meh.

explorerx4 · November 2009

when was the last time you drove a 4cyl?
i had an '04 focus 2.3 with a stick and it was very smooth.
very rarely could any kind of shaking be detected.

explorerx4 · November 2009

the fusion lineup also has the 'sport' version now, so it is now appealing to a wider audience. it is similar to the camry lineup except that you can also get awd in a couple of different flavors.

mcdawgg · November 2009

Yes, the Toyota Camry won the Motor Trend Car of the Year in 2007, and even though i own two Camrys, I still said "so what, big deal" back then about the Camry winning it. I say the same thing this year...

fushigi · November 2009

A month ago on vacation in Hawaii. We had an Optima for a few days until it got a CEL so we swapped it for a Fusion.

I'm not saying that modern 4-bangers are bad; they're perfectly adequate. But my personal standards for NVH are high. I guess I've been spoiled. Anyway, why should I settle for adequate when I can afford better?

smarty666 · November 2009

I agree with you completely, the majority of 4cyl cars are more than adequate for the majority of people and you get decent fuel economy but they are much louder and sound it compare to a V6 and after having V6s for years you do kind of get spoiled when it comes to how much quieter and quicker they are from a full stop and r willing to sacrifice a couple mpg to get it, they just seem a little bit more refined then a 4cyl but I have to say that I have a few rental and loaner 4 cyl cars over the years and they have gotten a bit quieter and more refined as the years have gone on

acdii · November 2009

I owned a Camry Hybrid, and it pales in comparison to the Fusion. There is so much more in the fusion, as better quality, firmer ride, better handling, QUIETER interior, (yes the Hybrid was noisy), better seats, I no longer feel a seat spring on my butt, and it is much better looking from the front, that bulbous nose on the Camry is ugly. The Camry is over rated, and its only saving grace are the people buying them are too anti domestic oriented to even bother to test drive one thinking the Toyota and Honda are still better cars when in reality the Fusion is just as good as the Honda, and better than the Toyota. Other than one cosmetic problem with a door panel which was quickly fixed, I have had no issues in 4800 miles, whereas the Camry had a sticking sunroof, wind noise on the drivers door, and a rattle in the dash, from day one, none of which could be repaired. Material quality in the Camry was also low, the seat fabric is thin, showed wear in only 10 months of use, the seat springs could be felt through the padding, and other parts of the interior I felt could have been of higher quality. The Fusion is fun to drive, the Camry was meh, its a car.

backy · November 2009

Where is the noise on the 4 cylinder engines vs. 6s? Isn't it mainly on hard acceleration? All of my 4-bangers are and have been very quiet at cruise and moderate acceleration. If I put the pedal to the floor, they can get raucous. But so can a V6, albeit a little less so. I put the pedal to the floor on a car maybe once a month or so. And with the 4 cylinder engines making 175 to over 200 hp in this class now, with 5 or even 6 speed transmissions, power and acceleration really aren't an issue, IMO.

Anyway, I don't mind a little growl when I floor it. Reminds me I am driving a car.

targettuning · November 2009

V-6's are inherently slightly smoother by nature of the opposing cylinders cancelling any vibrations etc while in line 4's generally either use a counter-rotating balance shaft or are naturally more inclined to be less smooth. That said however, modern 4's from Honda, Nissan, Toyota, and yes Hyundai and Ford too are damn quiet, and smooth. I personally do not feel or hear (except for the prior generation Fusion/Milan 4's which had a horrible induction noise on acceleration) anything that would prevent or preclude my buying one. As to performance, well, when 4's from Honda...Toyota...and Hyundai can accelerate to speed (0-60) in the mid to low 7 second range and 1/4 mile times and speeds at around the 16+ second @ 86-90 mph range they are plenty fast and quick. We need to wean ourselves from the notion that only a V-6 will do. A modern 4 is both faster and quicker than a Corvette from only a few decades ago.

mcdawgg · November 2009

Funny, the rattle in the dash has been reported in the early 6 generation Camrys, but everyone said that the TSB done by your dealer fixes it? My '07 non-hybrid has been great, no issues, and in my opinion and just about all the reviews I have ever read, is very quiet.

I like to buy domestic - that's why I did not buy a Mexican-built, and only 50% NA parts car. The Camry, Accord, and Malibu are much more USA than the Fulan.

I will not go and try to bash another car, because we all have our opinions, and that's okay. I had a Fusion rental a year ago, and let's just say it is a great car, but the Camry still is my choice.

jeffyscott · November 2009

"I don't mind a little growl when I floor it."

Same here and I floor my 4 cyl fairly often, probably a few times per week on average and I also generally tend to accelerate much faster than most other drivers, when I can (4000-5000 rpm on a regular basis does not frighten me). Mine is a comparitively weak 150 HP or so in a prior generation Mazda6, but even with that I have rarely felt like I wanted more power (the rare case would typically be when 4 or 5 adults are in the car).

There is some vibration when stopped, that I'd rather not have...but it is not enough to make me willing to go to a V6. For me the vibration would not be an issue at all had I chosen to get a manual, as when I put it in neutral while stopped, it is smooth enough for me. Designing the automatic to shift to neutral when stopped would take care of it too.

smarty666 · November 2009

you must have not had many V6s because when ever I've had a rental or loaner car with a 4cyl in my garage it is noticeably louder at startup and idle, plus at acceleration from a stop

if you read what I said carefully though, I've noticed over the years that the car manufactures have been improving this; for instance, I had a 2009 Altima 4cyl as a loaner car and could not believe how silent and quiet it was at idle and in brisk acceleration from a stop; the 4cyl in the Altima was even quieter than the I4 in an 2009 Acura TSX

about a year ago I had a Honda Accord 4cyl and felt it sounded extremely noisy at start-up/idle and in brisk acceleration

now that is not to say that every 6 cyl engine is quieter and more refined than every 4 cyl; for instance, I have a 2010 Maxima with the 290hp V6 and it is noticeable loud at start-up and idle and during brisk acceleration because of how much hp and torque there is under the hood, plus the CVT doesn't help in regards to quietness during acceleration; I would consider the altima I4 to be quieter and the maxima V6; the V6 engines in the infiniti lines are also noticeable noisy because they have over 300 hp

on the other hand, my 2008 TL V6 is very quiet/refined at start-up and idle compared to my Maxima; I also test drove a 2010 Camry V6 and that engine was similarily quiet and refined as my TL's engine; most V6 engines in the 230-270hp range are pretty quiet and refined compared to V6s with 290hp+

The point I was trying to make is that on avg most 6 cyl engines are quieter/more refined then 4 cyl engines at start-up and idle

plekto · November 2009

Of course if they were smart, they would use the "classic" configuration again - a small I6 engine(talking 2.5L or less) and RWD. Good MPG, nearly vibration free, and a ton of other benefits as well.

backy · November 2009

if you read what I said carefully though...

No, obviously I didn't, probably because I am a total idiot with an IQ of 12. :P

I can tell you that I have re-started (as in, while they were running) my four-cylinder cars a few times over the years, because they were so quiet and vibration free I couldn't tell they were running. Maybe besides my reading problem I have a hearing problem, too, but I haven't found I4s to be noticeably noisier at start-up and idle than the V6s I've owned and driven over 35 years.

BTW... your handle is very appropriate.

smarty666 · November 2009

well then you must have had some unusual V6 vehicles in your garage over the years because that is not the case most of the time and as if the 35 years is suppose to make you seem correct, give me a break

I swear I think people like you are on here only to argue; you act like I was trying to put down 4 cyl engines and I wasn't, I was just commenting on what someone else was stating in the great 4 vs 6 cyl debate; each has their pros and cons, I prefer 6 cyl engines but if I really like a car and it only came with a 4 cyl I would still get it

The most quiet engines I have ever had over the years are 6 cyl; you say 4 cyl, but you don't have to come on here questioning my experience because you think you've seen different; I gave concrete examples of my reasoning; if you think you are correct give your examples

explorerx4 · November 2009

funny you mention that. one of my kids gave a half hearted try at driving a stick.
i think part of the problem was that it was so smooth, they couldn't learn to shift by ear like i did when i learned on a vw bug.

explorerx4 · November 2009

if you can afford better, why settle for a V6? a lot of the NVH work is external to the engine.

backy · November 2009

you act like I was trying to put down 4 cyl engines and I wasn't

Not at all. I was stating my opinion on the relative noise from 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder engines, as you were. We clearly have differing opinions on this subject. But I can do without the personal putdowns, i.e. that I have some kind of reading comprehension problem. Was that because I happen to have a different opinion than you do? Am I "arguing" because I don't happen to agree with your opinion? Do you expect everyone on these forums to agree with everything you say?

I am not questioning your experience. I was relating my own experience wrt this subject, which appears to be different from yours. You yourself said different engines act differently re noise. Maybe it's just that I've owned different vehicles than you have, or that what you consider "noisy startup and idle" is different than what I think.

And if you had read my post carefully enough

, you would see that I did provide examples (remember re-starting the cars?). Do you want makes and models, too? Not sure I can remember all of them, because they include 200+ rentals over the years, but in one embarrassing case, I left the engine running on my 1976 Corolla DLX 2-door coupe in a parking lot, at night, because it was so quiet at idle I didn't realize it was running. Never did that again, but I have re-started a few cars as I noted.

An opinion is neither right nor wrong--it's an opinion. You can agree or disagree with an opinion. If you have a different opinion than someone else, it doesn't make you "correct" and the other person "incorrect", or vice-versa.

jeffyscott · November 2009

The noisiest vehicle at start-up that I can recall having is my wife's Jetta with the 5 cyl engine. That makes a crazy diesel like sound for several seconds (due to hydraulic lifters, according to the manual).

The noisiest on acceleration, in recent times at least, would have to be the 3.8L V6 in our 1997 Windstar.

I don't understand the claims that a V6 is somehow inherently more balanced than an I4. Why would the 4 be unbalanced? You would have one cyl firing for every 1/2 rev is that really so different from one every 1/3 rev for a V6? Doesn't the shorter crankshaft of the V design also result in more potential vibration problems vs. an I design?

fushigi · November 2009

Are you implying that I shouldn't settle for a V6 and instead opt for a V8? V8 equipped vehicles fall out of the Midsize Sedans topic. To humor the comment, though, my budget goes into Genesis territory (not beyond .. I'm not rich), but I don't want to spend that much on a car that will get door dings and otherwise be abused by the careless drivers around the Chicago area.

(OT drift: You should see the scrapes on my wife's passenger doors from the careless people where she works. Not just dings, although she has those as well, but out and out scrapes where a door was obviously slammed into her car. The attacker's car was red; that's how hard they "dinged" it. Amazing there's no real dent. And my car was new for all of three weeks before it was dinged. People just don't pay attention and don't care about other people's property at all. Also, the parking lot where I work has narrow spaces which doesn't help.)

As to NVH work outside of the engine, that's true and such work would apply to both 4 & 6 cylinder models. Since it applies to both I'm not sure how it factors into the equation. Are manufacturers really adding more sound deadening material to V6 models to tone them down?

My hearing is very sensitive to background noise. Hums from machinery, conversations at other tables at restaurants, radios in the background, etc. are all things that intrude my ability to focus on the task at hand or concentrate on a conversation. The part of my body's auditory system that filters/mutes background noise doesn't do as good a job as I would like. So I need quiet. I need a quiet engine as well as quiet tires. Especially when someone in the car *cough* wife *cough* isn't so quiet.

That Hyundai is dropping the V6 certainly has jump started this discussion. I don't think the Midsize Sedans thread has been this active for a while.

stephen987 · November 2009

Not all sixes are created equal! A 60-degree V6 actually cancels out its own second-order vibrations, as does an inline six. A 90-degree V6, like the one in your Windstar, is not inherently balanced in this way.

There are other factors too. Larger piston mass and longer connecting rods can both contribute to perceived roughness. This is why, for example, the VQ30 V6 from the Maxima of ten years ago is smoother than the VQ35 in today's Altima or the VQ37 in the 370Z, though they are all derived from the same basic design.

backy · November 2009

Re canceling vibrations... don't many I4s have "balance shafts" that are supposed to cancel out vibration? Those used to be pretty popular, but I don't hear much about them anymore. I don't know if that is because they are no longer used, or if they are so commonplace now that they aren't worth mentioning.

stephen987 · November 2009

My impression is that balance shafts are pretty universal now, at least for four-cylinder midsize sedans.

acdii · November 2009

Go test drive a 2007 Lexus RX400h, and come back about engine noise. It has a V6 that sounds like it wants to leave the vehicle. I have driven a lot of i4 engines, and other then those about to throw a rod, none sound as bad as the V6 in the 400h.

explorerx4 · November 2009

don't be so narrow minded there are also straight 6's and flat 6's.

you can get a v8, but they are at the top end (M3, IS-F).
a lot of v6's (and 4's) have things like active engine mounts to cut down on NVH.
i agree with a prior post that a lot of larger 4's have balance shafts, to help out with the same.

jeffyscott · November 2009

If Wikipedia is to be believed...
"Due to the odd number of cylinders in each bank, V6 designs are inherently unbalanced, regardless of their V-angle" and
"An inline six engine is in perfect primary and secondary mechanical balance, which can be achieved without using a balance shaft" and
"An inline four cylinder or V6 engine without a balance shaft will experience secondary dynamic imbalance, resulting in engine vibration." and
"An even-firing inline-four engine is in primary balance"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight-six_engine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_engine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inline-four_engine

cannon3 · November 2009

I am hearing the 2010 Car of the year is the Ford Fusion!? Ford has come a long, long way in just 5 years. Quality, reliability ratings, safety ratings all at the top. Beings the owner of an 06 Fusion SEL V6, and now reaching about 50,000 rattle free, squeak free, trouble free miles.. I grin. I know I bought a quality vehicle, for thousands less than a comparable Accord/Passat/Camry. Next for me is the 2011 Ford Focus.. Where do I sign??

thegraduate · November 2009

Why the 2011 Focus, are they finally going to update it?

backy · November 2009

Maybe Ford will make it a lot bigger... mid-sized, even!

dodgeman07 · November 2009

Maybe Ford will make it a lot bigger... mid-sized, even!

---------------------------------------------------

I don't think the Focus will be re-designed before 2012. The current version bowed in 2008 so 2013 is more likely. It might be mid-size by then. Similar in size to the Elantra which is a legit mid-size. Who knows: maybe the 2013 Focus will be slotted to replace the Lincoln Town Car!

Speaking of mid-size sedans: GM is stating the Cruze will be one of the largest cars in it's class. Maybe we can work the Cruze into this discussion too. :P

mz6greyghost · November 2009

Off topic: The latest is the new 2011 Ford Focus will be introduced at the Detroit Auto Show. It'll finally be on the same platform and design as the "world-car" Focus which is highly praised in Europe.

On topic: Congrats to Ford for the MTCOTY for 2010. It's in my short list to replace my Mazda6 later this spring. A Sport with the 3.5L, no less.

acdii · November 2009

Sport is an Awesome car. I enjoy every moment driving it, the only thing, the only, that I don't like are the tires, the Badyears have lousy traction, but those are easy to replace. Then again I never had a new car that had decent tires, they were all pretty crappy, especially those on the Prius, They were go nowhere in snow tires.

dodgeman07 · November 2009

The latest is the new 2011 Ford Focus will be introduced at the Detroit Auto Show.

-----------------------------------------------------

Wow! That is a quick redesign! It would be even more amazing if they were able to successfully launch it as a 2011 N. American model in 2010. That would leave the current generation Focus as a "3 year model".

--------------------------------------------------

Now back to your regularly scheduled program on mid-size sedans,,,,

stephen987 · November 2009

My impression is that it's not that quick--it's based on a Euro design already in production.

Now, to edge things back toward midsize sedans--there are strong indications that the next-generation Fusion will be based on the Mondeo. . .

8babies1dog · November 2009

Hey Backy, me again I promise to be more "civil" seems as though everyone's (IMO) ends up to be the topic instead of the cars, "my bad also". Anyway in response
to subject of I4 versus V6 it will be a personnel opinion, and that is a given, it will differ w/ that said I would like to put my thoughts in the ring. I also have been driving
a long time and many different types of engines from old time I6's and V8's and I4's.
All were fairly efficient but my last I4 was a 2.4L (at the time 150hp), climbing an
overpass near home it would barely increase in speed w/ the pedal to medal. At the
same time my wife has a 2002 Mazda 626 V6 2.5L 165hp.(we still have them). Both
are about as noisy as the other, the I4 exhaust noise the V6 induction noise, the V6 being much smoother. The big differences is acceleration, "not even close" for
15hp difference. The V6 will eat the I4 up hands down. Now on another note I also
have a 2009 Sonata 3.3L V6 249hp, it will make the Mazda look and feel like the
I4 in comparison. I know the new version I4 has improved according to reports, I have no experience as to the new I4 only hear say. In the sixty's the I4 was a rare
thing to find it was either a I6 or V8 and there was no comparison in performance.
This new version SEV6 has special hydraulic drive trane mounts and it is the smoothest and the quietest car I have ever drove, bar none.

Where I have a question is if the nowadays I4 is "suffecient" and get very good MPG why are they modifing it to try and keep up w/ the Hp rating of the V6?? Now
if the MPG also goes up O.K. that may justify it, but if it will or even can remains to be seen. Take the VW Passat it has a 200hp turbo I4 but it's mpg is not rated any
better than my V6 ( check EPA rating).

To each his own, I came from the age of more hp the better, it's hard to kick the
habit. You'll have a wonderfull day!!

jeffyscott · November 2009

Actually the Passat is one mpg better (combined) than the Sonata V6, must be round off that has the other figures the same. Of course the Passat requires premium.

Anyway, isn't one difference that the turbo has much more torque at low rpm and a flatter torque curve? How often would you actually be at 6000 rpm, where the Sonata has that 249 HP? Meanwhile the Passat torque peak is at only 1800 rpm and even the 200 HP peak is at 5100.

edit: note that we do know that at 4500 rpm the Sonata V6 has "only" 196 HP, based on the peak torque figure (229 ft-lbs @ 4500 rpm).

thegraduate · November 2009

Where I have a question is if the nowadays I4 is "suffecient" and get very good MPG why are they modifing it to try and keep up w/ the Hp rating of the V6??

I don't think it is a matter of "keeping up" with the horsepower ratings of a V6 any more than a V6 keeps up with a V8, a V8 with a turbo V8 or V12, etc.

R&D helps engines become more efficient power producers - customers expect higher outputs with a new generation; when they don't get that, they balk (anyone remember the hoopla about the TSX losing 4 horses even though usable torque went up?). Cars get bigger, safer, so their engines increase in output to keep up. My 166-horse Accord will outrun a brand-new 190-horse Accord to 60 miles an hour according to Car and Driver (8.1 vs. 8.2 seconds for automatic models, comparing a 2007 LX-SE to a 2008 EX). The increased output in that car isn't to "challenge a V6" in power, but rather to keep up speed with the increased size and weight of the car. Along with increased power from these four-cylinder engines are modern transmissions with 5 or 6 forward speeds getting the most from these engines, so you aren't stuck out of the peak powerband like you might get caught in a 4-speed.

Is roughly eight seconds to sixty miles an hour not "sufficient?" Its plenty powerful to me with a carload of people.

backy · November 2009

Where I have a question is if the nowadays I4 is "suffecient" and get very good MPG why are they modifing it to try and keep up w/ the Hp rating of the V6?? Now
if the MPG also goes up O.K. that may justify it, but if it will or even can remains to be seen.

This may interest you, it seems relevant to your comment: more power plus greater fuel economy in the 2011 Sonata 2.4L DI:

link title

So, why more power? My guess is, because cars keep getting larger and heavier (more safety equipment, and just the general up-sizing of cars). Also because Americans (in particular) like powerful, fast cars. More power with better fuel economy... that is a nice combo. It would be interesting to know if greater FE improvements could be had by holding the power down, e.g. what FE would a 2.0L, 175 hp DI engine make? But torque is part of the equation, too--as you found out in that overpass situation.

dodgeman07 · November 2009

Hyundai/Kia are flat out spanking the competition these days. The '11 Sonata could be a game changer/deal maker like the 1986 Ford Taurus or Chrysler's break-through mini-vans of the early '80's. The FoMoCo and Mopar products were revolutionary at the time and changed the landscape of automobiles in America.

The Kia Forte and next gen Optima along with the '11 Sonata can do the same thing. If Hyundai keeps rolling, they will continue to gain market share and put a couple companies out of business that should have been out of business last year anyway.

akirby · November 2009

I'd say they are competing nicely, but nothing more. Where do you see them "spanking" the competition?

thegraduate · November 2009

I'm with you there; they're fully competitive, especially in their price-points, but I don't think I'd call anything they sell "best-in-class" right now, but a good chunk of them in the top-5 (VeraCruz, Elantra/Touring, SantaFe, Sonata).

explorerx4 · November 2009

there is a common perception that 4 cyl's are still weak, especially from those older folks.
i had a 4cyl ford focus stick that was rated @33 mpg highway.
took it from ct to ohio to michigan and back. averaged 38+ mpg.
could put the cruise on 70 and take the largest hills in PA with no problem.
epa ratings get you in the ball park, but that's it.
we have an 04 escape 200 hp v6 with part time 4wd, it was rated @ 18/23 under the old system. lifetime average over 75k is a bit over 19.
we also have an 09 escape 240 hp v6 with full time awd. rated at 17/24 under the new system. average mpg over 8k so far 22+.

stephen987 · November 2009

but I don't think I'd call anything they sell "best-in-class" right now, but a good chunk of them in the top-5

Thing is, the top five are functionally interchangeable in many classes. They're so close to one another that there's no single car that's clearly "best in class" anymore--in the midsize sedan class, or in the others you mention. I'd say "five way tie for first."

backy · November 2009

There are some opinions that Hyundai has some best in class offerings. CR ranks Elantra on top in small cars, and Genesis on top in upscale sedans, for example. Sonata is a pretty old design now, but I think it has a good chance for some "best in class" awards next year. I will go out on a limb and predict the 2011 Sonata will be the next MT COTY. (Not so far-fetched--Genesis was runner-up in 2009.)

dodgeman07 · November 2009

Mostly in increased market share. Hyundai also has several new models for 2011 - 2012 that will be game-changers.

Hyundai-Kia in the 2010's will be similar to Toyota-Lexus of the 1980's. Look out because they are a strong company in tune with the times.

thegraduate · November 2009

CR ranks Elantra on top in small cars

Eh, it needs something more than a 4-speed with the old 2.0L Beta to be on my list. It'd be peppier and more economical. I'm spoiled by 5-speeds!

I'm afraid I'm not helping with the topic of midsizers here, though. Let's see...

I drove my Accord today; I love how quickly the heat gets warm on cold days (that makes this post back on topic, right?). My old Honda never has been quick to blow warm air.

dodgeman07 · November 2009

RE: Elantra: I'm afraid I'm not helping with the topic of midsizers here, though. Let's see...

-----------------------------------------------------

I realize the Elantra doesn't fit into this thread directly, but it is a surprisingly roomy mid-size sedan.

The 2011 Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima are set to displace the Lexus ES350 and Toyota Camry next year. It will be fun to watch.

And speaking of the Elantra, a 2011 model, looking as gorgeous as the new Sonata, is set for launch next year. Look for more transmission options, mid-size room and 40mpg highway. :P

2011 Elantra

m6user · November 2009

I think Hyundai has a ways to go before people equate it with a Lexus. Likewise with Kia/Toyota. Of course if "set to displace" means 5-7 yrs it may be possible if Toyota doesn't wake up and smell the roses in the meantime.

dodgeman07 · November 2009

Of course if "set to displace" means 5-7 yrs it may be possible if Toyota doesn't wake up and smell the roses...

-----------------------------------------------------

Toyota and Honda are scared $htless of Hyundai. 5 five years ago, they didn't take the Koreans seriously. Big mistake.

While Toyota/Honda were asleep at the wheel, Hyundai was, and is, working 24/7. The momentum has been building for a few years and Hyundai is ready to bust through the dam next year with new models aimed at Gen X, Gen Y, and Baby Boomers. They have hit the target.

You are correct that it won't happen quickly (in 2010) but it won't take 5-7 years either. 3 or 4 years from now automakers around the world, those still standing, will be punch drunk and trying to figure out what hit them.

I have that much confidence in Hyundai. You will too if you give them a chance to win your business next year.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles