Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
55.9% in Oct 2009 over Oct. 2008. & +5.8% for the year.
For more sales stats including some monthly reports try the following
site.
enter on Google search line; monthly breakdown US car sales
scroll down to "monthly sales results GM inside news forum" it covers
many car lines.
I follow pricing closely (a "hobby" I guess) and what I see is that the prices of, for example, the Fulan and Sonata are getting very close to those of the Camry. It's hard for me to keep up with pricing on the Accord, because for some reason none of my area Honda dealers advertise prices... ever (except lease deals). But I can still see price samples in the forums here.
Take for example the base Camry AT compared to the base Sonata AT:
2010 Hyundai Sonata GLS AT: MSRP $20,620, Invoice $19,776 (has $1000 rebate)
Sonata Price, Invoice less rebate: $18,776
2010 Ford Fusion S AT: MSRP $21,220, Invoice $19,791 (has $1500 rebate)
Fusion Price, Invoice less rebate: $18,291
2010 Toyota Camry Base AT: MSRP $21,195, Invoice $19,659 (has $500 rebate)
Camry Price, Invoice less rebate: $19,159
Of course it's possible that there are "hidden" incentives that would bring prices down further. But invoice less rebates wise, the base Camry is only $383 more expensive than the base Sonata, and only $868 more than the base Fusion. Not $2000 more, or even $1000 more. Interestingly, the Fusion is nearly $500 less than the Sonata; there is a common perception that Hyundai is the "low priced" brand (with Kia). That appears to be changing.
Fleet sales tend to hurt residual values because cars sold to fleets usually end up on the auction block as used vehicles after a short period of time.
Since there's a lot of these cars coming up for sale, it drives down the prices.
Car buyers who purchase vehicles that are sold heavily to fleets can expect the value of their car to drop very fast, as has been the case with many Chrysler and GM cars that are mainly used as rental cars. This has hurt GM and Chrysler and so they've been cutting back on sales to fleets.
The largest seller of fleet vehicles is now Hyundai followed closely by Nissan. The percentage of cars sold to fleets is 34% for Hyundai and 29% for Nissan. As a comparison, only 15% of GM vehicles are now sold to fleets.
----------------------------------
While most automakers are reporting double-digit drops in sales each month, Hyundai and Kia continue to swim against the current and maintain (or even increase) units sold. According to Automotive News, a significant part of their success is attributable to fleet sales – large numbers of cars going directly into rental and corporate fleets. During the first quarter of 2009 alone, more than 33 percent of Hyundai's first quarter sales of 95,854 units were fleet related. Rental car sales represented nearly 35 percent of Kia's sales during the same period.
The above two articles were in separate papers. Yes, Hyundai sales are up this year. However, an individual purchaser of those cars will see the value drop real fast as hyundai has been increasing their numbers via fleet sales. Are they going with fleet sales because they didn't learn from GM/Ford or do they not care who they sell to just so long as the increase their numbers? IDK
In Chicago, Sonatas are routinely sold for about $2000 to $3000 less than a comparable Camcord. May be a little closer in Minny but I'm sure it's similar.
Talking about Hyundai/Kia above. Something to consider----Could Hyundai be trying to get more people into their cars as a form of advertisement? A lot of people bash or ignore Hyundais but have never driven one. Since their resale value is already quite crappy, maybe they figure that a short term burst in rental fleets may give people the chance to try them or at least give the perception that they are more mainstream. Just a thought but they seem to have been doing a lot of things right lately so I tend not to condemn their actions so quickly.
------------------------------------------------
Toyota's Chairman really laid it on the line in that speech. It sounded like a profuse apology to Toyota faithful around the world because it was.....
One of Toyota's problems, other than Japanese issues in general which are significant also, is they have grown so big it becomes difficult to change course with any speed. Like an aircraft carrier trying to turn, they have been slow to respond. They opened the door and many companies, most notably Hyundai, stepped up their game.
I credit Toyota for maintaining huge dollars in retained earnings to weather this storm. The will prosper in the future by pandering to the masses but need to inject some excitement in the brand that has been lacking for years. They also need to work with their North American dealers who have run off many customers with "We're the Best!" attitudes.
From what I've noticed, Toyota offers some pretty big "hidden" incentives, as does Honda. For example, I see in the Edmunds Prices Paid discussion Hondas purchased around the country for well below invoice. Yet there are no published incentives/rebates. So there must be hidden money to the dealers there someplace.
From what I've seen lately, the going price for a Sonata GLS AT in the Twin Cities is around $18k with the general rebate of $1000, and less when other rebates like military rebate are applied. That isn't much less than what I see Camrys going for. For Accords, it's harder to tell, as I mentioned Honda dealers advertise only lease rates in my area. Interesting that Honda dealers advertise their prices in Chicago, while they don't do it 500 miles away in the Twin Cities. I would suspect collusion amongst the Twin Cities Honda dealers, but that's illegal so that can't be the reason.
Gee, are you going to let us in on the secret region? :confuse:
I've seen deals on the Accord and Camry prices as well but usually at end of year and before new and improved versions hit the showrooms. I spent a lot of time in Minny the last two years and watched the car prices in the papers. I noticed that a lot of dealers up there put in "from" or "starting at" and a price. Not too many Chicago dealers do that. They might only have one of something but they advertise the actual selling price. Anyway, Sonata GLS AT are usually going for about $16500 here and Camry LE AT are going for about $18500. That's day in day out. Add in a situation where redesigns are involved and I think you would see even a wider spread between the Sonata and the Camry.
Honda dealers list lease prices only about 80% of the time down here . About the only prices you see will be base Civic or base Accord prices and maybe an Odyssey once in awhile. However, there are a couple of dealers that will use lease prices on about 4 advertised models and then throw in a Civic DX manual for a low ball price. I highly doubt that car would be available when you get to the dealer though. "Gee, it's been sold already even though it's only 9am on the day of the ad and you're the first one through the door".
thing is, what equipment comes standard in that base model. If you only
want base model features thats fine. But if your not attached to 1 brand and
are looking for a better value for your money, compare apples to apples.
I'll use this as an example, several months ago (after much research) I
bought a new 2009 Sonata, in side by side comparison w/ cars like Accord,
Camry, Altima etc. the Sonata had a longer list of standard equipment,
some of those standard features were add on's for the compeditors "price
jumped up considerably". At that time Hyundai had a $3000. factory rebate
and the dealership I went to added $2000. incentive to it. I went to a Toyota
dealership just down the road and looked at a Camry, had to step up level
of trim to get about the same features, (big price increase) they only offered
a $500. rebate. The sales manager said they didn't need to give a rebate
that someone would buy it anyway.I told him that would,t be me. Went back
to Hyundai, told them I had looked at a Camry they knocked another $500. off
for the Toyota rebate. Now who wants to sell cars? The warranty was the
clincher.
Toyota US car sales for 2009 dropped 24%
Hyundai USA car sales for 2009 went up 5.8%
Yes; Toyota cars out sell the rest "BUT" the gap seems to be closing. All the
ratings have shown the quality and dependability of the Camry has made it
drop in the standings lately. Is that over sight or were they napping or do
they even care. "If we make it they will buy it" attitude don't work for me!
I still like Toyotas but not nearly as much anymore.
the net and come up with a price you can live with, study and remember it
so when you do go to make a deal you already have the info, don't let the
salesman blow a bunch of smoke up your "nose". Don't let the salesman sell
you the car, you buy it! Have the total price in mind TT&L and all fees, don't
be confused with all the crap they throw at you. The salesman will want to go
back and forth to his sales manager for a better price, tell him that you know
what you should have to pay and their next price is their last shot, and if I don't
like it you will see my rear end going out the door. Go down the road to another
dealer and repeat the routine. Be extremely polite not arrogant, it has worked
for me for years. If they really want to sell a car they will call you back, use that to
your advantage work the 2 dealerships against each other. If they ask what you
are willing to pay just say "the least you will take". If the people on the net report
a certain price they have paid why would you have to pay more? It takes a little
confidence but practice makes perfect. What do you have to loose except $$$$$.
The question is do the dealers fight amongst themselves over pricing in print and on the radio or do they fight at the point of sale between the vehicles and the value of buying at one place or another? Pricing has almost always been shown to be one of the lesser reasons for buying...that is unless the dealers emphasize pricing.
I will give the Toyota dealerships in my area credit, though, in that most of them do advertise prices in addition to lease rates. I think that is because, as I pointed out in my example earlier, Toyota's pricing is pretty competitive with other makes including Hyundai. A Camry might be a little more than a Sonata or Fulan, but I don't think $1000 or so will stop someone from buying a Camry if that is what they really want. Honda's pricing obviously isn't as competitive, or their dealers would be advertising their prices. Yet there are deals to be had even for Hondas (Accords for example). You may need to work a little harder for them.
Similarly some buyers will only buy from one brand from one store regardless of who the salesperson is. If they run into a bad egg they'll either return another time or ask a manager to get rid of the pain in the butt and get them another.
For all of the hardazz uber-knowledgable people herein, that's not the majority of buyers.
How so very true! There is a local/regional dealer group that sells GMC/Buick/Chevrolet/Subaru/Hyundai/Honda vehicles at several locations. They tout on their website for each brand their "negotiation-free sales policy" and that the price posted on their cars is what everyone pays, no hassles required. The curious part about that policy is when you check the prices online. Every make but Honda has discounted prices (not too great by the way!) listed for the vehicles in their inventory. For any and all Hondas, you are told to call them for their selling price. That's one call I won't be making!
haggle over price that is exactly what keeps the price increasing, the car
companies "love" that. The salesman's job is to extract the most out of
the customer as possible, it's in his best interest, he more than likely
gets a % of the sale. Whether he likes you or not it's not his decision
on final price. You can call it hardazz if you like, I call it business. If you
want to give your hard earned $$ away that is very much your choice.
Knowledge is power and action speaks louder than words!
is a big investment but buying cars over the amount of time you own that
house is also a pretty big investment. The point is would you buy that house
at sellers starting price or would you try to get him to come down?
Is that not the same thing as negotiating on a car purchase?
There was an article recently posted at cnbc.com about the absolutely ridiculous real estate market in Las Vegas, here. As much as 30-40% of the inventory is under foreclosure. It's almost impossible to get one too. Those with money ( the uber-wealth and the offshore investors ) are snatching up every single unit of inventory the instant they hit the market. Lenders are getting 10-20 bids the day they start.
- This market is crazy and many things are just not going to make any sense.
- I can guarantee you 99.99% of the listings emailed to you will no longer be available by the time you get here.
- Properties are selling in the blink of an eye.
- Properties are getting multiple offers within a few days of being on the market, the most offers I’ve heard a house had recently was 44 offers (I know, crazy).
- This market is crazy and many things are just not going to make any sense.
This part is simply supply and demand.
And sure enough this was the home we fell in love with. It was on for $132,000 so we decided to be really aggressive and offered $160,000, plus we had government backing on our loan. Well our Realtor called that night and said, 'You're not going to get the home. They got 30 offers and half are cash offers, so the bank is not even going to look at you.' The banks just want the cash to unload these places."
houses in foreclosure and on the market around you? There will
always be investors willing to speculate on property. I will list a web
site below with up to date information on the US housing market,
check it out and see if you think it's a buyers or sellers market!
housing market - News - US News and World Report
Sorry for the distraction, will get back to cars now.
Car dealers mostly would prefer that you finance through them, rather than pay cash, unless things have changed. I believe cash offers may have been preferable during the brief cash for clunkers run, because timing was critical.
That is one of the most preposterous comments I've seen in the 10 years I've hung out in the Town Hall.
Unless... the "value of doing business" at that dealership includes a competitive price. But if this likable salesperson is offering a car that I can get elsewhere in town for significantly less money, it would be "no deal." I'd go to the dealership that is willing to give me the better deal. I can always have the car serviced at that "superior" dealership if I choose to do so.
I actually had this experience this past Friday. I looked at two different establishments for what turned out to be exactly the same car, except one had a few more miles with new tires, and the other the original tires that had maybe 10k miles left on them. Both cars (used) were like new. I really liked the first salesman I talked to. He was professional and willing to work with me on my trade. We talked "cars" for some time. But I was looking for a specific price point, and went to another place. The salesman was fine, courteous and all, but it was a busy day there and I was ping-ponged around quite a bit. In the end, though, this salesman agreed to the price I wanted--about $450 less than the other guy offered, plus I liked the fact the car had new tires plus extra "goodies" were tossed in like a coupon (transferable) for $200 off a car purchase from any dealer in their chain, a 5-day, 500-mile "bring it back" guarantee, and coupons for discounts on body repair etc. So I called the first salesman back and thanked him for his efforts, but said I was going with the other deal--even though I really liked him and the way he did business better than the 2nd place.
(BTW, this was for a mid-sized car.)
Since you are a car salesman, you may think that is harsh, or unreasonable. But consider... would you pay more for a house just because you happen to like the Realtor more than another Realtor who is offering a similar house for significantly less money?
Anyway, maybe we should get off the real estate thread and back to cars.
Tell me though, is it not true that the vast majority of car dealers will try to get as much for their vehicle as possible to include playing a lot of games. Calling anybody, including people on this forum, "hardazzes" for trying to do the same is hypocritical.
handle my car buying, that don't bother me in the slightest, I have been
called many different things but I don't remember ever being called a
"dumbazz". Below is a phrase that says "uber-knowledgable" people
herein, thats not the majority of buyers. That sounds like your saying
the majority of buyers are "easy" and ignorant and don't know about
all the little tricks car salesmen are taught to do. That kind of comment
won't make many brownie points in this forum. If I took it the wrong way
excuse me, but that is what I read!
For all of the hardazz uber-knowledgable people herein, that's not the majority of buyers.
This is my opinion in response to a post made at 10:27 AM by "kdhspyder "
I think other things would come into my thinking and maybe you researched this too. Was the car you bought a 1 owner car? No one takes care of a car better than the first owner. Did it have a clean carfax? Was it garage kept? What about other things that wear out like brakes, belts, fluids? The tires are expensive but if it needs brakes and a transmission flush you will be spending about the same amount as tires. I can see buying a new car and only focus on price but on Used you have to be real careful not to end up with someone else"s Lemon.
If you believe their advertising that carfax has all information, you're going to get taken sometime. Carfax does not have everything that has happened to the car in its report.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It's more corporate and refined but since the sales run into the $millions per transaction the positions taken are a lot tougher ( hardazz ) where neither side will budge in a negotiation which might take weeks, months or years. This would be the norm rather than the exception.
There are similar situations in the retail auto business. A knowledgable buyer arrives knowing exactly which vehicle he or she wants and states...'I'll buy this vehicle at this price OTD..take the offer to the decision-maker...take it or leave it.' There's no perjorative here this is just a hardazz position that arises from time to time. However in the retail business these are the exceptions rather than the rule. That was my point.
Everyone should fight for every dollar they have so that they spend only when they see sufficient value available in the product or service being offered. This point though is highly highly highly subjective. Where the knowledgable 'hardazzs' herein see the price as the key component...this is not the most important criteria for most buyers.
The majority of buyers - OK, in our market - have another hierarchy. The sales person is the most important variable for the largest part of the buying public. Buyers will spend more with a person that they like and trust. Compound that with a brand and a company and a location that they like and trust then the synergies build on one another. It works. I see it daily.
An example of this would be the 1995 Mercury Grand Marquis that I am restoring for my mom, she loves the car and had some munches done on the fenders and doors. I am repairing those, and replaced one fender, but if you got a Carfax on it, none of this would be shown on it. In fact this car had a Clean Carfax, and after getting into it I found a lot of body work has been done, and nearly the entire car has been resprayed. In the Used car market, even with a Carfax, it is Buyer Beware!
being attached to a certain product in most cases I fall in that group. Not to
knock any particular brand but me and most of my family were 100% GM.
But after giving them a more than fare shake (about 30 years and 10
vehicles later) I found it may be in my best interest to change and for the
last 14 years I have been very satisfied. Have bought cars from 3 different
carmakers and all gave better service overall than 30 years of brand X. Still
have a Mazda 626 V6 thats 8 years old and has only been in the shop several
times for minor stuff, over 150k miles excellent little car. Just bought the wife a
new Sonata SE V6 so far fantastic automobile, 15000k miles the smoothest
running easyest handling car I have ever owned and the MPG/HP rating is by
far the best also. I plan on being a long time owner of these 2 brands and I
also will keep shopping the best deal, I don't always have to be a "hardazz"
to buy, sometimes a sensible fare offer is all thats needed, both sides are
happy.
I actually get called "HARDASS" most of the time but my grandchildren call
me a big "teddybear" Happy car shopping!
Looks like you got the right deal. Anytime you can talk to the prevous owner and they have no reason to stretch the truth you will get the real story. It seems like a lot of dealers around here will go to extreme mesures for the customer not to find the prevous owner. I noticed that about carfax also when it looks like it had muliple owners in a short period of time but with a little common sense you can figure it out.
Rounding out the top five are Honda (29.7 mpg), Volkswagen (29.6), Toyota (29.4) and Kia (28.0). Naturally, we can expect all of these figures to continue rising in the coming years as every automaker strives to meet the upcoming 35.5 mpg U.S. standard for the 2016 model year."
Looks like the new DI 4 cyl that Hyundai is putting in the '11 Sonata will up the game in this contest even more. Since that is their bread and butter car, the 35+(old 4's 32 hwy mpg + 10%) hwy mpg that is estimated should have a major effect on the company's overall efficiency. No real trucks really helps here.
Camry ..... 27400 .... 321900 .... ( 89500 )*
Accord .... 17200 .... 261800 .... ( 88600 )
Altima ..... 15500 .... 184900 .... ( 67000 )
Fusion .... 13800 .... 162000 .... + 24500**
Malibu .... 11100 .... 142200 .... ( 18700 )
Sonata ..... 8200 .... 109500 ...... ( 1200 )***
*Loss of Solara sales included but Venza replacement not included
**The only midsizer to increase sales this year
***Close to breakeven despite a down year for the industry.
Conclusions:
The Fusion and Sonata have prospered this year obviously and the Malibu is doing decently given what GM went through. Fleet Sales results pending.
The Camry lost a lot of sales but remains solidly the King of the Hill. The addition of the Venza is a big plus for the corporation as a replacement for the Solara.
The Accord and the Altima have taken it on the chin.
Vehicle No. 1 million won't have such a simple life. Hyundai builds cars to sell them, and this one will be sold like any other vehicle.
According to plant spokesman Robert Burns, it is likely to end up in a rental fleet somewhere. The rental car companies have been stocking up on 2010 Sonatas, and the bulk of the production of that model now is going to fleets.
Hyundai apparently makes fleet sales a significant portion of its business. Ford and GM paid the price for this and if history repeats itself, hyundai owners will have cars that plummet in resale value real fast and eventually, the fleet sales may come back to haunt hyundai as well.
So there's some upside for automakers to sell to fleets. Another being, they are profitable sales. Maybe not as profitable as a retail sale or lease w/o big incentives, but they add to the bottom line.
One thing I've wondered, though... as some companies cut back on fleet sales, what if others didn't step up to meet that demand? Would all of us folks who need to rent cars for business or vacation travel be driving around in five-year-old cars with 75k miles on them? :sick:
One thing I've wondered, though... as some companies cut back on fleet sales, what if others didn't step up to meet that demand? Would all of us folks who need to rent cars for business or vacation travel be driving around in five-year-old cars with 75k miles on them?
I think that is happening. The last Ford Fusion rental (Hertz) car I got had 53k, the Subaru Legacy rental (Budget) car I got this last July was an '07. It might be regional as well: I have always gotten a Ford in MI, a Hyundai in OH, and until the Subaru, a GM in CA (although that car was made when GM still had a stake in Subaru, I think). Eh I take that back, I have gotten a Fusion in CA too, but its been almost always GM vehicles. Everything recently has had a lot of miles on it though.
Oh and there are differences in fleet sales. Fleet sales to Hertz, Enterprise, or what not are usually not so helpful, while sales to So Cal Edison, Cox Cable, AT&T, etc are usually more positive.
The reason that the big 3 were so tied to rental fleets was because of union contracts. If they stopped the lines they had to pay the workers about 90% of what they usually made and layoffs were also difficult so they kept the presses running and sold them to rental fleets. Now comes Uncle Sam bailout, bankruptcy, union contracts void. They can now stop the presses without too much pain and less fleet sales. Those are my thoughts anyway....just adding 2 + 2.