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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,258
    i don't know what the actual ratings will be (or real world mileage), but a 4 will probably get a noticeably higher city rating than a 6.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Note the wording...

    The rest of the industry has V6's with 250+ hp and fuel economy ratings in the 30 mpg range
    I didn't say 30 mpg min.

    But just to mention two in that range..

    Camry V6, 268 hp and 28 mpg
    Avalon, 268 hp and 28 mpg
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    My eyeballs see about 10% drop in mpg for every 5 mph increase at freeway speeds here: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/driveHabits.shtml

    So going 70 instead of 75 could mean ~34 mpg instead of 30-31.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,258
    so why are you trying to be obtuse?
    it just makes it seem like you are trying to confuse things.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Have you driven the Fusion? Personally I prefer its blend of ride and handling over the Accord. I think the current-gen Accord has lost some of its handling crispness from past generations, albeit is smoother without the "feel every pebble" ride from pre-2008. But the Fusion is smoother still yet with sharp handling, at least as good as the current Accord's IMO.

    As for manual transmissions... we'll have to see if the 6-speed in the new Sonata is as good as the 5-speed in the Accord. The last Hyundai I had with a stick was a 2001 Elantra, and its shift feel was "OK" but didn't have the Honda crispness. I'll bet though that MT Sonatas will be a very small percentage of the 2011 units, especially with the 6AT with paddle shifters available.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Ok, it's just gramatics...don't get all bold letters on me. I would probably say almost 30mpg or something like that because I thought you meant something different.

    I think the V6 Sonata also is at either 28 or even 29 hwy mpg and is around 250 hp or in that range anyway.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    backy: No, I haven't driven a Fusion, and I actually like the styling a bit better than the Accord. I think the Fusion looks sleek and functional, and certainly seems to represent good value for the money.

    I've heard that Fords are also quite reliable these days.

    Unfortunately I'm one of those who holds a grudge for owning a 2000 Ford Focus ZTS that suffered through a dozen increasingly alarming recalls before I gave up on it. It may not be rational, but my grudge is still there for now, and I'm not sure it'll go away.

    I genuinely admire the Fusion's looks, however, and it's nice to see Ford doing so well with such a sharp product.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    good points on my rather weak mpg spyder and jeffy---maybe I'd better pull back on the lead foot. I do go 65-70 a lot of times...
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    Just a note to add about a Mazda, I still have a 2002-626, the last
    year of that style. It's has what I call a baby V6 2.5L 165HP, it has
    2 little tail pipes but only 1 muffler. But it also has the MAZDA "zoom"
    as they call it, no turbo just DOHC 24 valve. I don't race any more
    but if did I would put this (baby) engine up against any new version
    I4 (non turbo) even with up to 25HP more. BUT!! it doesn't have a prayer up against the nowadays V-6's of any make. I know I know
    this is not a race forum, just making a point about how the new
    technology is pulling so much HP/MPG ratios out of these small but
    very powerful cars engines.

    The little V6 may not win the race but you will know you were in one.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I had a similar experience with a 1995 Mystake, er, Mystique. Lots of recalls. But I really liked the car--when it wasn't in the shop. Unfortunately, both the 2000 Focus and 1995 Contique were the first model years, and Quality wasn't quite Job 1 for Ford at that time. They seem to have turned the corner on quality, though, and I'd give them another chance. In fact, if I could have found a low-miles Fusion for a decent price a couple of weeks ago, I'd be driving one now instead of a Sonata. I think word of the Fusion's goodness is getting out, as used car prices have shot up in the past year. But then, the prices of most used cars have shot up in the past year.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Backy--yikes, the Mercury Mystake in the first year was grim, I hear. I remember Click and Clack joking about it. I called my Focus ZTS "Zits" by the end, and then I popped it and traded for an Accord.

    How's the Sonata? It's a heck of a lot of car for the money. I think the Hyundai engineers are getting closer to the leaders with every generation of Sonata, and with the 2011 they may have not only caught up but reached the top in a few areas. Nice that it's made in Alabama too...
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The 2007 Sonata is a ton of car for what I paid, looks and drives like new, nearly 2.5 years of bumper-to-bumper warranty left, tons of room, very comfy, plenty of pep, and I think very good looking in a classic sedan-ish kind of way. Very nice car, especially considering it's a five-year-old design. But I think the Fusion has superior ride and handing.

    I wonder how the 2011 Sonata will look to us in 2016, or 2021? Some cars have classic styling--Audi and BMW for example. They still look good 10 or more years later. The new Sonata is very daring for a family car. Will it stand the test of time?
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    I'm skeptical about daring styling in midsize sedans. This is not a market segment that rewards drama, especially on the part of manufacturers that are still in the process of building (or rebuilding) a reputation. Midsize buyers are risk-averse, and I think that carries over into styling.

    When the '06 Sonata came out, the pundits complained that it seemed dated and derivative, and compared it to the already long-gone '98-02 Accord in its conservatism. Yet four years later, the same basic design still looks nice, restrained, not particularly dated--dare I say "classy"? One could say the same about the Optima too.

    Meanwhile the "daring" '06-09 Fusion (an excellent car in most respects) seems like last year's trendy look.

    Incidentally, at the risk of going OT, does anyone else out there think the Cruze is a dead ringer for the Sonata/Optima?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    The '11 Sonata is a pretty radical departure from what we're used to seeing from Hyundai. However, I think if it was a Mazda, Nissan or even a Toyota design we probably wouldn't consider it as dramatic as we are because it's a Hyundai and were used to seeing some pretty bland stuff from them.
  • jkobty2jkobty2 Member Posts: 210
    Yes we still have 3 Leganza's in the family, all 3 running very well, original engine and transmission. My friend with the Honda went through 3 transmissions by 90K when he traded his car in, before the lease was over, for another Honda. Some people never learn. But he leases his cars because he is self employed and then returns them, so he does not care what happens after 4 years.
    I do not look at the brand name, and I am not loyal to any particular brand, I get the car that I like, and I feel is will be good value and looks good. I maintain it properly, and so far have not been let down.
    I do tend to pick cars that eventually get a cult following. Check out on youtube the Daewoo leganza.
    Some people even did music videos for their souped up Leganza's
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_1e-kcYJkc
    It is also in Guigiaros page
    http://www.italdesign.it/dinamic/gallery/gallery_scheda.php?id=316&num_rows=1&fa- mily=p&data_p_title=Giorgetto+Giugiaro

    I hope my new mazda6 ends up as reliable, because it surely looks good and is also attracting the same type of activity on youtube.
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    ...does anyone else out there think the Cruze is a dead ringer for the Sonata/Optima?

    ----------------------------------

    I see some similar lines but the Cruze is much smaller and aimed at the Elantra.

    Chevy did a nice job with the Cruze and although it's technically a C segment vehicle and doesn't qualify for this thread, it's EPA Interior Volume is very close to the Malibu (110 cu.ft vs 113 cu.ft) and it has a larger truck than the Malibu to boot!
  • jkobty2jkobty2 Member Posts: 210
    I love the interior on the 2011 sonata, but I think the exterior is a bit busy.
    The really nice car coming from Korea will be the 2011 KIA K7. It was designed by an Audi designer and you can easily tell from this video, especially the rear lights and front headlight treatements. A very classy car.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2AiitnVj5I
  • scotschoolscotschool Member Posts: 2
    Last Friday, my girlfriend called me when I was driving on the road. I knew that using cellphone while driving is illegal, but that call was from my sweetie. Suddenly, a drunk rushed across the road, I instinctively turned the steering wheel ... My car almost ran into a lamp pole. I really want to kill that bugger! Horrible!!! I think I need a bluetooth hand-free kit. I wonder if any dude here can tell me where I can get a cheap bluetooth hand-free kit. I hope guys who have ever bought bluetooth hand-free kit respond! :blush::(
  • scotschoolscotschool Member Posts: 2
    A month ago, I bought a handsfree bluetooth car kit at sinamalls through PAYPAL. The moment when I saw the price I very much doubted the quality of the product. You know, the same item is sold 180 dollars at automobile store, while only 65 dollars are needed on SM. Two weeks later I received the product, to be honest, the quality was not bad. LOL…. My brother seemed very unhappy because he spent 160 dollars buying the bluetooth car kit which has the same function as mine, even the out-looks are the same. I suspect that these two devices are from the same Chinese factory since they are many OEM factories in China.What do you say? :lemon:
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Yes, I think the current Sonata is a good looking design. I think the current Fusion is equally clean and classic.

    The new 2011 Sonata is more daring and busy in its design, but I think it's still pretty good looking and is likely to be relatively enduring. It seems slightly more integrated and good looking than my 2008 Accord, but that's probably not saying much.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    the new Kia K7 sedan you gave the YouTube link to will be called the Kia Cadenza. And the reason it has the Audi touch to it is because it's design Chief was none other than Peter Schreyer, the Design Chief Kia hired away from Audi Motors.

    Now that is a classy new offering from Kia.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    That Kia is shaaaaarp! What an ad. Cool. Nice styling. Minimalist rather than somewhat busy Sonata.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I think you should just buy a new Fusion with Sync. That will definitely fix your hands-free phone issue.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Two products.

    BlueAnt SupertoothII-Battery, clip on visor, works good, charge lasts very long time. About $60-80 online.

    Parrot-Wired into sound system. Works good, different models cost between $150-$250 online. However, unless you're very handy, it can cost $100-200 for installation especially on amplified systems.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    Or a Sonata SE w/ blue tooth maybe.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Unfortunately I'm one of those who holds a grudge for owning a 2000 Ford Focus ZTS

    Too bad you did not wait a year, the Focii have been pretty reliable from 2001 on (of course we may have made the same mistake, my wife has car from the first model year of a redesign, 2005 Jetta). So far only warranty and recall repairs.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,258
    as an owner of an '07 fusion, i take offense. :)
    the '10 fusion is a nice update, though.
    the sonata is kind of anonymous, not good not bad.
    just about every has their good and not so good angles to be viewed from.
    my ruler for the looks of my vehicles is, if i go into the garage, do i still like how it looks? the fusion still makes the grade.
    when my wife had a 96 taurus, it did not make the grade after a while.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I agree that the '11 Sonata looks nice in the pix. But it seems similar to the Mazda 6 which hasn't seemed to have done a lot for sales. I think the Fusion has more traditional or classic design lines and while consumers often state they love the more daring look, too often they end up buying what is traditional and comfortable. Ford made that mistake when they over-relied on consumer marketing panels and brought out the gen II Taurus. But Hyundai has been doing a lot of surprising lately, so who knows how it will go over!
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    over at a site about the Honda (vtec.net) there's been some discussion about the direct injection engine technology that the 2011 Sonata will have. Apparently there are some trade offs and maintenance issues with DI, such as gunk buildup over time that can become costly to fix, and nvh issues. I guess VW has built quite a few DI engines, and some of them are having issues. Don't know if Hyundai has some magic fix for things that may be hard engineering challenges to overcome.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I guess VW has built quite a few DI engines, and some of them are having issues.

    Why am I not surprised? ;)

    Interesting that the folks over in Honda land are already trashing these Hyundai engines. I suppose since they aren't Honda engines, they will be crap. :P
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    Maybe those honda people should focus on the years of transmission problems in hondas (handled by class action lawsuits) or the VCM problems of the new hondas or the brake problems of the new hondas before they start trashing hyundai.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Sure, Honda has had its share of problems too--even Honda fans like me admit that.

    And I don't think they are trashing Hyundai, they are just showing that there are trade-offs with DI engines. When you first look at it on paper DI sounds like a win-win--more power and more mpg. But if you think about possible maintenance issues 6-10 years down the line, and nvh issues now, it clearly is a trade off.

    Some of the vtec people say that Honda may go to DI as well in a couple of years...But then again they might not.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    If it is true that this engine design is prone to sludge, perhaps Hyundai will specify synthetic oil?
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    They said the same thing about fuel injection. VW had it on the rabbit in 1976 and Honda did not start using it until the 80's and even then only on some models.

    I am impressed with the Sonata. I drive an Accord now and like it very much, but it is not perfect. The seats are not very comfortable and to get lumbar support I need leather and to get leather I need a sunroof which means no headroom. If Hyundai actually has availability of the stick (unlike Toyota and their vaporware) I would take a hard look at one in a few years when I am ready to get a new vehicle. I am very impressed with the mpg.

    Now if Honda brought over their 4-cyl diesel that would be the end of the story, but they are reluctant. Seems like they want to concentrate on big heavy inefficient vehicles right now like their guzzling crossover. Nice to see Hyundai thinking outside of the box.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Ward's best ten engines list just came out. No Honda engine made the list but a Hyundai engine did. Not a DI engine mind you or that Ward's is the end all of "best engine" lists but it is a highly respected source.

    I think Hyundai is going to have a winner in this new Sonata. They have been bashed for copying designs(and boring designs), using old technology, transmissions a notch behind the leaders, not having cutting edge tech inside, interior quality finishes, suspension issues, etc. Don't know about the suspension but they seem to have addressed all the other issues just mentioned in this new version.

    As far as design goes the Lexus ES350 is hardly called a wild design or too far out. If anything it is usually referred to as less than daring but that is probably the car that the new Sonata reminds me of from a lot of different angles. The only thing that I see that is a little overboard is the hood creases. Camry isn't exactly beautiful from the front and Accord is downright ugly from the rear. I think the Mazda6 may be a little gaudy with the bulged out wheel wells for a lot of people's preference. I have an'07 Mazda6(which has been trouble free for 38,000 miles) and like the new version but the interior was just not upgraded enough to get me excited about it.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,258
    considering hyundai has a 10 year warranty, it kind of seems like sour grapes from the other guys.
    plus like many other things there have been advancements since someone first took a chance on the technology.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    yes, explorer--this is the part I can't figure out. Hyundai must figure that this direct engines are reliable over the long haul--because otherwise they're likely to pay dearly not just in reputation but in terms of warranty costs. If a large number of these engines are going to be gunked 5-10 years from now, it would cost them a fortune to fix.

    I assume the Hyundai engineers have sat down with Hyundai accountants and execs and looked at it and decided it was going to work...

    But other car companies (VW, anyone) have also had faith that things would all work out, and sometimes they just did not.

    My sour grapes against VW (had a jetta that was a nightmare) is that I trust Hyundai a lot more than I would trust VW.

    Hyundai probably has a big winner on its hands. I think the 2011 Sonata looks like a great car. But would I buy one? I've had such great experiences with my Hondas that I probably wouldn't....But I still think that Sonata looks great.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,258
    there are LOTS of DI engines that going to be introduced or have been in the last 2 years or so.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    there are LOTS of DI engines that going to be introduced or have been in the last 2 years or so.

    Including the Ford EcoBoost engine, which is also on the Ward's 10 best list.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Most modern engines can easily go 150,000 miles with proper care. And don't forget that Hyundai's 10 yr warranty only applies to the original owner so that reduces their liability.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    I guess VW has built quite a few DI engines, and some of them are having issues. Don't know if Hyundai has some magic fix for things that may be hard engineering challenges to overcome.

    Do we get some of the lowest-quality VW offerings here in the U.S.? How is it that VW is leading the world in automotive sales when all I hear is that they're horrible with electrical gremlins, these DI VW motors are gunking up too early, etc?

    I'll continue to stay far away from their vehicles, for now anyway. You see, I learned to drive stick in my Dad's 4-speed '66 VW Fastback. That was a great car to learn stick in, easy to steer and handle, too. Light in weight, and actually the car accelerated pretty quickly.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Yeah--I learned to drive stick in a VW too--a VW Bus. If you could drive and shift that, you could drive and shift almost anything.

    I forgot that the Hyundai 10 warranty wasn't transferable. And since many people only keep a car for 3-7 years, and since the DI problems are more likely to crop up in years 7-10, that does limit some of their liability...

    Still the new Sonata does look good in pix and on paper...
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    It's hard to understand how Hyundai after spending hundreds of millions
    of dollars to develop "what I think" is 2 of the best and most efficient
    car engines in years, will stop putting them in the car they were
    actually built for, such as soupping up the 3.3l V6 to make the new
    SE "more sporty". Personally that is the main reason I bought the 2009
    SE w/ the V6, it has more than I expected and then some. The only thing
    I might add would be a trunk key hole, so I am happy I did opt for this
    car. After buying 23 vehicles including this 1 in the past 45 years so far
    it has been the best. The technology in this thing is amazing to say the
    least. The old saying goes "if it ain't broke don't fix it"!!!! IMHO
    Good luck to the people that are waiting for the 2011.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,258
    it's getting to be about how high is your mileage rating?
    the 4 cyl should be plenty powerful enough for most buyers.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    How did they soup up the 3.3L just for the SE to make if more sporty? What is the other engine you are talking about? I also wonder what specific amazing technology the Sonata has that other carmakers don't have? I agree that the Sonata SE w/ the V6 is a very nice car with guts but I think the only real mechanical differences between the SE and the Limited, or for that matter the GLS, is the suspension/tires along with a couple of cosmetics. The V6 is the same for all three cars I believe.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Exactly. 9 out ten Sonatas are I4 now and will be 100%. Hyundai has went on record that they intend to be the mpg champ. By only selling I4s in their bread and butter car it will raise their corporate average nicely.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    I'm glad you asked those questions, I will try to use some of the same wording
    that I read while doing research on the Sonata. For the 2009 Sonata SE it was
    in the plans by Hyundai to develop a high performance engine in attempts to
    make the SE a little more sporty to compete with cars like the new Mazda6
    and Fusion and Malibu etc. (if that was accomplished or not is an opinion thing).
    It is not and I don't think it has ever been advertised as a sports car. And how
    they "souped it up" was increasing the horsepower and torque and opening up
    the power curve. This was done by adding C.V.V.T to both camshafts and add
    VIS to the induction system, the engine is built out of aluminium which also helps
    performance. This upped the HP from 234 to 249 and increased the torque also.
    All this was done and the MPG rating actually went up. Hyundai USA's engineers
    and builds their own engines in the plant in Alabama. The other engine is the
    I4 2.4L that is used in the Sonata, its HP also went up.

    The Se has a different suspension as you said, it also comes with a larger
    breaking system than the others. The engine is mounted on hydrolic motor
    mounts. All this was done by Hyundai alone, this V6 drive trane is getting
    a lot of attention by other car makers, very good MPG's and dependable also.
    To me that is pretty amazing technology.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    I would like to add, I don't see that I wrote that the (new f/ 2009) V6 was only
    to be used in the SE, sorry if you misunderstood it. I did not post the comment
    to knock the Limited or the GLS, I would be shooting myself in the foot sort of
    speak. They are basically the same car but the trim levels are not the same, the
    GLS has a few options that can be added, same goes f/ the SE and the Limited,
    but some options are not available on all trims. There are items for the SE that
    are for the SE only can't even be ordered for the Limited or the GLS. (maybe
    some after market), such as the fore mentioned suspension and breaks. Will
    that make it special? it is called a SE I think means (special edition) but again
    that could be subjective. How will this fare with the rest of the US cars, who cares
    other than the buyer, like me. Do I think it,s special? absolutely IMO, I have owned
    many fine autos including other brand HIGH performance models and this holds
    it's own, actually I consider better! It has the smallest liter engine (3.3) than the
    others I've had such as (GM's) 3.8l turbo charged Bonneville's SSEI that was on
    the market about 15 years that was a nice car but had issues.

    How well will the 2011 go over here in the US market remains to be seen. We will
    see soon enough.

    Happy holidays to all !!!!!
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Thanks for the detail. I think SE stands for "Sport Edition" rather than "special". You said that Hyundai developed the engine to make the SE more sporty but isn't it the same engine(hp/torque) that is used in the GLS and Limited? I think they did other things like you mentioned suspension and tires, cosmetics(I don't believe the brakes are different) to make the SE sporty but not necessarily the engine because, correct me if I'm wrong, don't they also sell the SE in I4 version?

    such as soupping up the 3.3l V6 to make the new
    SE "more sporty".


    The above is where I got the idea that you meant they souped it up specifically for the SE. Maybe that's not what you meant.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    Appreciate the reply, "Sports Edition" sounds even better! thanks. The V6 and
    the I4 come in all three trims, thats very good Hyundai USA can concentrate their
    efforts on only these 2 engines for the Sonata. Go to google and type in (2009
    Sonata SE v6 specs and reviews) it will provide all the info about what was done
    to the "new version 2009 SE) well over 1000 parts were changed from the
    previous 2008 model including the bigger break system and suspension. (I
    found it very interesting). That made me go for the SE over the other 2 trims
    and buy a Sonata in general. Whatever the reason the new engines were built
    it added a good dimension to an already good drive trane.

    Some times my thoughts are not conveyed perfectly. It's a pleasure exchanging
    info with people that share the same interests. Have a good one!!
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