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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    At my younger daughters soccer practice I ran into a guy who for a living modifies vehicles. He said he has an 07 Milan Premier V6 AWD. He put on true dual exhaust, an intake, chipped it, 18" performance wheels/tires, tinted windows, spoiler. He claimed this car is outputting about 275HP. He is still under the price of a V6 Camry!!
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    He put on true dual exhaust - not very likely if he is still emissions legal

    an intake - providing the sound you are going fast without actually going fast

    chipped it - gotta lose the pesky speed limiter

    18" performance wheels/tires - because nothing helps handling and acceleration like super heavy wheels and tires

    tinted windows, spoiler - at least 50 hp right there

    He claimed this car is outputting about 275HP. - using recreational pharmaceuticals (driver, not car)

    I am all for modifying vehicles, but about the only thing on that list that could do much is the chip, and I don't see that much tuning left in the computer for the chip to do that on its own.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    There is no way he's getting 275 hp, but saying that an intake and exhaust won't give you performance gains is simply wrong. In fact, that will give you more power by itself than you can get from a re-flash or chip upgrade. And there's no reason why adding a true dual exhaust (if true) would impact emissions.

    After all an engine is just an air pump and the more air you can get in and out the more power you can make. I figure the dual exhaust and intake are worth 20 hp, tops with the chip/reflash adding another 10-15 max (and probably requiring premium fuel).
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    but saying that an intake and exhaust won't give you performance gains is simply wrong. In fact, that will give you more power by itself than you can get from a re-flash or chip upgrade.

    I am not saying there are no gains there, I am saying there is more noise than power. Also, you need to look at the existing system, if you were replacing a straw with a sewer pipe, that might be something, but its not like the system isn't relatively free flowing in factory trim.

    I think you would have to have a pretty crummy exhaust to get 20 hp out of replacing it and if the intake is a ram air, it only works when you are forcing air through it at a high enough velocity, and if it is a cone filter, its not really buying you anything but noise.

    Chips can bump ignition (or valve timing) timing and re-tune fuel maps to provide better performance at the expense of fuel economy and emissions. I agree that it probably requires premium fuel. Chips aren't as helpful as stand alone items, they are more to tune the car to other mods.

    And there's no reason why adding a true dual exhaust (if true) would impact emissions.

    It depends where you are located, if you are in a CARB state you must have an exemption sticker stating that the component is certified as a factory replacement part. In theory, this is an EPA requirement everywhere, its just CARB states that police it. I guess its possible that he could have true dual manifold back exhausts with each exhaust having a second cat, but I doubt it.
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    tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,927
    Why do all that work? Buy the Camry with the 2GR and enjoy the same if not more power and get 30 MPG.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I would like to know what's the resale price for that "275HP Milan" vs. a plain Jane Camry V6.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Intake mods also decrease fuel economy.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Also how much does it cost a "paying" customer to do what he did.
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I would like to know what's the resale price for that "275HP Milan" vs. a plain Jane Camry V6.

    If selling the car as a whole, I would start with the vehicle value and subtract the cost of the mods. Most modified vehicles I have had experience with were "parted out" prior to being sold, where they were basically returned to stock and the performance parts were sold separately.
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Why do all that work? Buy the Camry with the 2GR and enjoy the same if not more power and get 30 MPG.

    Because you would be driving a Camry :P
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    baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    This seems to verify that 60 mph slalom speed you posted for the Accord. I'm not sure how Edmunds was able to suddenly squeeze more out of the Accord. Was one an I4 and the others V6s? :confuse:
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Factory intake and exhaust systems are tuned for less noise and lower cost. Adding a cold air intake and a true dual exhaust can significantly increase the airflow into and out of the engine and if you understand anything about internal combustion engines you know that's the secret to more power. A cold air intake alone can easily add 10 hp. And production vehicles routinely add 5 hp with dual exhausts. So 20 hp from that setup is more than reasonable.

    I'm not advocating the changes that were made or the 275 hp claim. I'm only disputing some of your claims to the contrary.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Intake mods also decrease fuel economy

    Absolutely not true. Everything else being equal a less restrictive intake and exhaust can actually improve fuel economy.
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    tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,927
    I would rather be driving a bone stock Camry V6 than a "pimped" out Milan that has less power and gets less FE. The Milan isn't a bad car, but as is usual with Ford, it comes with an uninspiring powertrain.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    If you are letting in more air (cold air intake), you are letting in more dirt also (tests have been done to prove this). If the exhaust is less restrictive, you may gain (very little) hp, but you will loose torque at the same rate (back pressure is needed for torque). The only way a "chip" will do any good at all, is if the engine computer was severely de-tuned in the first place, and then you are probably killing your gas mileage. People will make all sorts of claims to sell their products. ;) Let's see this hot rod Milan's dyno test sheet.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Thanks... I always frequent Edmunds' forums, but am guilty of not reading their own comparisons. When they are typically redundant with the magazines I take, I don't see the point. I've never seen the Fusion come in last place though, I must admit.

    I hope I didn't come off as snobby in my post, I just re-read it and realized how it sounded. It wasn't intended! :)
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The fact is the Fusion at idle is every bit as quiet as a Honda or Camry in 4cyl or V6 form. Granted, put the pedal down and the 3.0 comes to life and does growl a bit more. But 3db is NOT that much more.

    If it is 3 db louder, then it isn't every bit as quiet as the Camry or Accord, is it? A little contradictory.

    The Duratec 3.0 is a proven, reliable and capable engine. And does compete in this class. Finishing at most .8 seconds behind other V6's in this class. I'm sure most won't notice .8 seconds.. nor care. Since they will end up paying thousands less for a comparably equipped vehicle.

    In the case of engine power, you pay less and get less with the Fusion V6. I doubt 40 horsepower is a deal killer for everyone, but for some, it just might be.
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    plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The average motorcycle that puts on a new filter(which lets in more dirt as well, as was noted in a past post) - and a unrestricted exhaust typically gains 15-20% more power.

    I can easily see a car gaining 20-30hp from those mods. Remember, they want them to pass smog and the easiest way to do that is to restrict it so that it's barely running at idle.
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    to sit here and say one car is better because of one review in one magazine is just plain ludicrous!

    Ludicrous, nice word. The V6 Accord is regarded as the #1 V6 sedan by a lot more than just "one magazine". Who's word am I supposed to take as truthful? Yours, I would rather take Edmunds word on it, thanks anyway. But the fact remains that my V6 Accord will go around a corner as fast, or faster than the V6 Fusion. I don't spend my entire day seeing how fast my car will go around each corner though, so I would like a nice ride too. Which is another thing the Accord is better at.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Wrong. You can't put more air through and burn more gas and get more hp at the same time increasing fuel economy. Hence the reason a lot of turbos tank in the fuel economy department.
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    engineerboy huh?? You have an engineering degree? Your telling me by opening up the intake and the exhaust this doesn't give more HP???? :confuse: Yes, you can get dual exhaust and still be legal for emmissions. Just takes 2 caty converters.. for starters. By using performance wheels/tires this lightens the car, it doesn't add weight?? what are you talking about? :confuse:
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "If it is 3 db louder, then it isn't every bit as quiet as the Camry or Accord, is it? A little contradictory."

    Your not reading this correctly. At idle and in normal driving conditions the Fusion is every bit as quiet as an Accord/Camry. Nail the pedal, then the noise levels change.
    You keep posting DB levels at time when the cars are in hard acceleration. Somewhere way back, maybe in the last forum.. someone posted normal DB ratings for Fusion/Camry/Sonata/Accord and all of these cars were even or with in .1 of each other...

    "In the case of engine power, you pay less and get less with the Fusion V6. I doubt 40 horsepower is a deal killer for everyone, but for some, it just might be"

    40 HP looks good on paper. But in true reality its out .8 seconds... :shades:
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    quiet an uproar with this Milan Premier mod. I'm just the messenger. This guy was probably in his late 40's early 50's and has been around the mod circuit since he was a teen. So, I have to believe he knows what he is doing. He is going to bring the car to our next practice so I can see it along with taking me for a spin! Can't wait should be fun...
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Take a look at this site.. 30MPG for V6! NOT!!!
    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectEngine.jsp?year=2007&make=Toyota&model=Camry
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    So what's your point? The Fusion has 48 less hp, and gets 2 mpg less than the Camry. You saying you got the shaft?
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    But the fact remains that my V6 Accord will go around a corner as fast, or faster than the V6 Fusion.

    Apparently that is the case as long as the 2006 edmunds tester is doing the driving, but not if the 2004 edmunds tester or the motor trend tester is doing the driving. :D

    Actually both perform just fine going by the numbers and I think the handling issue goes back to which feels better to the driver.

    The motor trend comparison that was linked says this about that for the Fusion:

    If 90 percent of what matters about a car to you is how it feels in your hands, the V-6 SEL version of this Mazda6-derived sedan could be your prize.

    OTOH, MT has this to say about Accord's handling:

    Behind the wheel, the Accord is nimble, but not devoid of awkwardness. Walton: "There's a nonlinearity in the steering's response." Entering a corner you feel "an initial delay, then a gain as the tires grip, and finally a caboose feeling to the rear end."
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    zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    Who's word am I supposed to take as truthful? Yours, I would rather take Edmunds word on it, thanks anyway.

    This is what Edmunds' editors say:

    "Editors' Most Wanted Vehicles for 2007

    Sedan Under $25,000

    2007 Mazda 6Winner: 2007 Mazda 6

    The 2007 Mazda 6 and Mazdaspeed 6 hold a special place among those who have driven them. While slotted in a budget-based glorified economy car segment, the 6 offers comfort, capability and class for a surprisingly affordable price. Fun to drive, with smooth power delivery from the automatic, the 6 features a slick-shifting manual transmission if you so choose. Design is simple and tasteful inside and out."

    I have a lot of respect for Edmunds too and couldn't agree more with you elroy5 :shades:
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    zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    He put on true dual exhaust - not very likely if he is still emissions legal

    an intake - providing the sound you are going fast without actually going fast

    chipped it - gotta lose the pesky speed limiter

    18" performance wheels/tires - because nothing helps handling and acceleration like super heavy wheels and tires

    tinted windows, spoiler - at least 50 hp right there

    He claimed this car is outputting about 275HP. - using recreational pharmaceuticals (driver, not car)

    funny stuff...thanks for the reality check!
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    He is going to bring the car to our next practice so I can see it along with taking me for a spin! Can't wait should be fun...

    Just a little heads up. ;) If you see a Camry, Altima, Aura, or Accord coming up fast from behind, grab the door handle, and hold on tight. You may be able to save the front doors at least.

    275hp, that's funny.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    "If it is 3 db louder, then it isn't every bit as quiet as the Camry or Accord, is it? A little contradictory."

    Your not reading this correctly. At idle and in normal driving conditions the Fusion is every bit as quiet as an Accord/Camry. Nail the pedal, then the noise levels change.
    You keep posting DB levels at time when the cars are in hard acceleration.

    I do? I've never posted db, I just repeated your post. I have no idea what the db are, I assumed you were giving them correctly. Maybe you are confusing me with someone else. You also never said where the Fusion was 3 decibels louder, just that it was, which in essence, makes it louder than the others. You said it man, not me. Sorry. All my facts came from your own post.

    "In the case of engine power, you pay less and get less with the Fusion V6. I doubt 40 horsepower is a deal killer for everyone, but for some, it just might be"

    40 HP looks good on paper. But in true reality its out .8 seconds...

    I'm not doubting that it is about 1 second's difference between the Fusion and the cars with more power previously mentioned. I'm saying you pay more and get more.

    .8 seconds is more than the difference in the Fusion V6 Auto (7.4), and the Honda Accord 4-cylinder Auto (8.1), according to Car and Driver. I'd be more than willing to bet you would say you can feel the difference that particular .7 seconds, but maybe I'm wrong. I'd bet that I could feel that difference too.

    Either way, my simple point was that you pay more and get more. The Fusion is a good car, but at the bottom of the pack in horsepower/acceleration for top V6 models.
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    goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    The Fusion is a good car, but at the bottom of the pack in horsepower/acceleration for top V6 models.

    I agree. But there are many cars in this class that are great. Why settle for good when you can have great?

    Fusion's got too many quirkies for me. Funky turn signal placement, odd HVAC control location, huge door pulls, cold plastics. Compare a Sonata (or an Accord) to a Fusion and you'll see what I mean.

    I'm trying to get past my 2 Fords that mugged me thru their ownership. Its hard. The Fusion doesn't get me over that bitter pill. Maybe a F350 will.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I agree. But there are many cars in this class that are great. Why settle for good when you can have great?

    Simple...Price. A couple of thousand dollars extra for a comparable Accord can make or break some people, and to others, isn't worth it at all.
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    why does it not surprise me you take the lowest Fusion 0-60 numbers and the best Accord 0-60 numbers??... Hmm... and you fail to mention you can get a Fusion v6 for less than an Accord 4cyl... ;)
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    looks like I hit a soft spot huh?? The Camry V6 does NOT get 30MPG period!
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I got to ask, why is this so "funny" is it because its a Ford product and not a Honda or Camry? I bet this is the reason for all the skepticism. I know if it were an Accord or Camry it would be golden and no questions asked..
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I hear ya!@ I never got over my 2000 Accord bitter pill... :sick:
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Simple...Price. A couple of thousand dollars extra for a comparable Accord can make or break some people, and to others, isn't worth it at all."

    Yeah!@ you finally admit the Accord is thousands more than a comparably priced Fusion!@ And.. take a look right here at Edmunds.. 10 lowest priced sedans.. NO ACCORD....
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    No, if I'd posted the best and worst numbers I'd post the 7.5 seconds for the Accord 4-cylinder manual, and those are the best numbers in the magazine that I take, Car and Driver.

    One source, my friend. That one source had those numbers. No "best and worst" numbers in there.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I showed it a couple of weeks ago the $1,700 difference in comparably equipped cars (loaded, V6) last week. You must have missed that one? I have said it isn't $5,000 as you have claimed before, but NEVER said Accord was cheaper than Fusion.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Then, how did our Environmental Protection Agency's test get 31 MPG?

    If you and I can both get over EPA numbers in our cars, why would you claim a Camry CAN'T hit its numbers, when you don't own one and haven't driven one extensively on the highway?
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I can understand that!! Dad will never again even LOOK at a Chrysler product after 2 Convertibles in the 90s.
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    goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Yeah! you finally admit the Accord is thousands more than a comparably priced Fusion

    Money well spent too. Pretty silly to annoint the year old Fusion with the kind of esteem the Accord has earned after many years of excellence. Lets see where the Fusion is in 4-5 years and 90,000 miles on it. We know the Accord will still be tight. The Fusion is a mystery.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Money well spent too. Pretty silly to annoint the year old Fusion with the kind of esteem the Accord has earned after many years of excellence. Lets see where the Fusion is in 4-5 years and 90,000 miles on it. We know the Accord will still be tight. The Fusion is a mystery.

    Looking to be less of a mystery the more time goes on. Reliability ratings are looking very good for the Ford! :)
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Your telling me by opening up the intake and the exhaust this doesn't give more HP????

    Hmm perhaps my engineering degree helped critical analytical skills. I never said that opening up the intake and exhaust wouldn't give more HP as a general rule. I was implying that the vehicle was already designed well enough (something I assumed you would agree with, given your cheerleading) that even if you cut off the exhaust entirely, you wouldn't see that much of a performance gain. The same goes for the intake.

    I am a pretty big fan of modifications too and for certain vehicles it helps more than others (mainly boosted cars), but I don't know about 55 hp on a 3.0l Duratec.

    [Edit] reflecting some more, perhaps that is why he needed the chip, so that he could get rid of the rev limiter because his mods shifted the power curve above the fuel cut for the motor. Moving the redline another grand or so might get it there.

    By using performance wheels/tires this lightens the car, it doesn't add weight?? what are you talking about?

    Its not the concept of tires and wheels that I have an issue with, its wheels that are heavier than stock (I would like to see him weigh the 18" bling bling wheels next to the 17" stockers and see what is heavier, and then do the same for the tires.

    Replacing the 17" stock wheels with BBS 17" (17 lbs/wheel, thats pretty light, the 18" were 23 lbs/wheel) or something that is even lighter would help, and going with a low profile R-compound performance tire would provide astounding performance while reducing weight.

    Rotating mass is considerably worse than dead weight elsewhere on the vehicle, and also increases unsprung weight (weight not controlled by they suspension, south of the shocks/springs, as it were) which is detrimental to handling. A 14" Miata alloy wheel weighs 11 lbs, just food for thought.
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    plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectEngine.jsp?year=2008&make=Buick&model=Lacrosse/Allure

    OMG?

    That's not a Lucerne? And yes, that's a V8. That site is full of future models that aren't even in the press yet!

    Also note that almost every car they test with premium gas gets roughly 2mpg average worse than regular. This is understandable as higher octane gas has less energy.

    So they tested with premium fin the past to get more power and regular for the fuel economy ratings. What else do you expect from corporations? Heh.

    By the way, LOOK AT WHAT E85 DOES;
    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySide.jsp?column=1&id=23432

    We weren't imaginaing that E85 kills your gas mileage!
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    tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,927
    "The Camry V6 does NOT get 30MPG period"

    If my heavier Avalon with the 3.5 can hit 30 on the highway (@ 70 - 75), why wouldn't the Camry?

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

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    mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Wrong. You can't put more air through and burn more gas and get more hp at the same time increasing fuel economy.
    Oh really?

    I know of more than a few Mazda 6 owners that have replaced their standard air filter and intake with an aftermarket Cold Air Intake (from companies like CP-E, Injen, and MazdaSpeed) and have actually experienced fuel economy thats 2-3 MPG BETTER than stock.

    CAIs help the engine to breathe better, and allows them to be more efficient as well. More efficient can (and does) lead to better fuel economy. It may not be the same for all cars, but for both the 4-cyl and V6 in the Mazda6, not only is it possible, but it happens as well.

    Hence the reason a lot of turbos tank in the fuel economy department.

    The BMW 335i has got a turbocharged V6 that puts out well over the advertised 300 HP (V8 territory) and I've seen fuel economy reports as high as 27 MPG on the highway. That's better than most V8s, and even some V6s that don't come close to 300+ HP.
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    thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    Ludicrous, nice word. The V6 Accord is regarded as the #1 V6 sedan by a lot more than just "one magazine". Who's word am I supposed to take as truthful? Yours, I would rather take Edmunds word on it, thanks anyway. But the fact remains that my V6 Accord will go around a corner as fast, or faster than the V6 Fusion. I don't spend my entire day seeing how fast my car will go around each corner though, so I would like a nice ride too. Which is another thing the Accord is better at.

    glad you like my word choice. unfortunately, you didn't seem to understand that i am not trying to impose my opinion on anyone. just pointing out that because one magazine says its a better handler doesn't make it THE better handler. handling is subjective. you may think the accord handles better, and someone else may think the fusion does, or the altima does, or the camry does. it doesn't make them wrong and you right.

    that's the part you need to understand. there are lots of great cars out there that are better than the accord for some people. the accord is not for everyone...it's certainly not for me.

    -thene
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I know of more than a few Mazda 6 owners that have replaced their standard air filter and intake with an aftermarket Cold Air Intake (from companies like CP-E, Injen, and MazdaSpeed) and have actually experienced fuel economy thats 2-3 MPG BETTER than stock."

    I don't believe it period. You cannot shove more air, burn more fuel for more hp and claim better gas mileage. And forget the highway mileage stuff. Take two cars, one modified, one not modified. Drive both of them exactly the same way for about 200 miles on city/suburban streets. Lot's of fast acceleration and braking. Then tell me the modified car gets better mileage.

    Take a turbo car and drive about 100 miles in heavy city/suburban driving with fast acceleration and heavy braking. Check out the resulting mileage compared to epa estimates.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't believe it period. You cannot shove more air, burn more fuel for more hp and claim better gas mileage.

    Believe it. It's been proven time and time again. We're not talking about forced induction, just allowing the engine to breathe better with cooler air. The engine runs more efficiently and produces more power which means (under NORMAL driving) you can use less throttle.

    One of the universal truths is that a dirty air filter kills your mpg and replacing it with a clean one improves mpg. This just takes that theory one step further.
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