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Comments
You may find it insulting, but, it is a term commonly used in these threads, and it is not insulting term. Maybe YOU find it insulting...that's not my problem. It is a term used for very passionate "fans" of something. Hence why I used it because I would think the die hard Hyundai "fans" would be the best source to gather info from....honestly, I think you were a bit too sensitive, IMO
Anyway, I'm actually pretty excited to see it. My Mazda store is next to Hyundai and I am eager to see how it looks in person. From the pic's, it does look a little awkward from some angles. The interior looks fantastic! Hyundai is really a hot product right now!
Someone (normally male) who is utterly devoted to a single subject or hobby, often to the point where it is considered an obsession.
The term originated in comic book circles, to describe someone who was socially insecure and used comics as a shield from interaction, hence the disparaging connotations. Fanboys are often experts on minor details regarding their hobbies, such as continuity in fictional universes, and they take these details extremely seriously. The term itself is often used in a derogatory manner by less serious fans of the same material.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy#Fanboy.2Ffangirl
If a term is considered derogatory "often"... why insist on using it when others have told you it's offensive? Especially when it's not necessary to get your message across?
I guess that's expected though from a sales shyster like you. No offense meant of course.
Since this is a midsize car discussion and not a "Hyundai fanboy" discussion, I just chose not to answer. From what I've seen of Aviboy's other posts though, I don't think it was meant with ill will and nothing to get excited about.
Back to the cars, please.
personally, i didn't see any bad intent in avi's post.
i don't want the discussion 'here' to degenerate into what happens 'there'.
you won't let it happen, and that is one of the things that separates 'here' from 'there'.
i have been following the new Sonata not to buy one, but to figure out if it is a game changer in relation to the competition.
i have my eye on something else, but am hoping the competition will have to up their game to compete.
Car and Driver
Sept 2009
by Jared Gall
Excerpt from article about the 2011 Sonata
Don't I wish his guess that the $17,600 would stand firm here in America.
In Korea, power will come from a 2.0-liter four-cylinder making 163 hp. Our standard motor in the U.S. will be a larger, 2.4-liter four with direct injection and unspecified output we predict will be around 190 hp. Production of the 2011 Hyundai Sonata for U.S. consumption will begin early in 2010 at the company’s factory in Alabama, with deliveries to commence shortly thereafter. Although the Sonata’s sheetmetal might ape the nearly $30,000 Volkswagen CC, its price, thankfully, will not. Hyundai says pricing will begin at the equivalent of $17,600 in Korea, and we expect that won’t change much when it hits American dealerships.
Uhh, proof?
How about the actual vehicles that belong in the midsize discussion from VW (Jetta, Passat)? How about the fact that VW as a whole has been at or near the bottom of quality/reliability surveys for the better part of the last 15 years? How about the constant complaints from current and former VW owners about electrical glitches, engines and transmissions failing, suspension and alignment problems, interior pieces snapping off in one's hands? The list goes on...
VW builds great driving vehicles, as long as you have a second vehicle and don't mind becoming drinking buddies with the entire service department at the local dealer.
While Hyundai has had problem in the (now distant) past, I'd trust ANY current Hyundai on the dealer lot compared to a VW.
Every VW owner I've ever owned has loved their cars from a ride and comfort POV but all have sworn to never buy another due to the myriad problems, each requiring a dealer visit and $200-400 cash outlay.
Don't get carried away, my friend. I'm a big fan of German cars - I drive & love a BMW - but I also know that German cars, no matter how expensive, can be problematic. When it comes to building consistently reliable vehicles, the top Asian manufacturers passed the Germans years ago. That's why my other car is a Honda CR-V.
I know from experience that "built 100% in Germany" is no guarantee that the damned thing will start tomorrow morning.
I'm not sure that I'd ever want to be wholly dependent on German cars for my transportation needs.
I have to agree.
While the CC will win any beauty contest, the long term durability is just not there yet. VW has made some strides in the right direction, however, they are not there yet....
Hyundai on the other hand is the hottest car company in North America right now. There is enormous content out there verifying how much better they have become. If I were a consumer, I would have to take a look at Hyundai. Wow...there...I said it....I never thought I would, but, Yes, I would consider a Hyundai. Mainly the Elantra or Sonata.
But the biggest difference between the Sonata and Passat is the price. The Sonata will start around $20k and top out (estimated) under $30k. In other words, you can get a fully loaded Sonata with all the toys for the price of a base Passat. The Sonata with its 2.4L DI (and later the hybrid powertrain) will cream the Passat on FE also. Ride, handling, NVH, interior quality, performance? We'll have to see.
Isn't the CC a midsize sedan? It's based on the Passat. What about the Jetta you mention, I thought that competes against the compacts like Corolla, Mazda3 and Civic. Please don't throw EPA volume numbers at me because if you did we couldn't even talk about the Sonata or the Accord because they are classed as large now. I don't see anything wrong with mentioning it.
I do totally agree with you about the VW dependability though. I've owned several and have a nephew who is a VW technician. He tells me to buy Japanese/Korean if I don't want to spend a lot of time/money on repairs and maintenance. I do like the looks and driving experience of the German cars though but not enough to make the switch. It's a personal preference kind of thing IMO.
Casey
Fan of the new Sonata
American built vehicles are also more likely to start when you're late for work. Having owned both a German-built VW & an Ohio-built Honda Accord, I know this for a fact. (BTW, the build quality of the Accord was, if anything, better than that of the VW, but I won't mention that.)
But the German-built car does look better, sitting there in your driveway, while you're waiting for the flatbed truck to come & take it back to the dealer.
Let us know if you find ANY car, mid-sized or not, that is "100% American". I don't know that such a vehicle exists anymore.
Did you know... the 2011 Sonata was designed in California? Designed in the US, built in the US.
Technically. But IMO this forum is for the more "bread-and-butter" midsize sedans (Passat, Altima), while their more-expensive brothers (CC, Maxima) are more of a "entry-level luxury" category, for lack of a better term.
LOL! As true a statement as it is funny!!
Better not buy a BMW X5 then...
Ok, so what about the American build X5's and X6's and soon to be X3's? Are they inferior to ones assembled in Germany?
How about the VW's built in South America? What do you think about those?
The fact that there is a assembly plant here for Hyundai in the US means nothing. The assembly process was designed in Korea. I'm willing to be most of the materials come from Korea anyway. I highly doubt a multi billion dollar company such as Hyundai would just make a half-baked plant in the largest auto market in the world. C'mon, get real....
To be honest, I think the argument over what country a vehicle is built is very over blown. Is there REALLY a quality difference between a Japanese built Civic and an American built Accord?? I really don't think so.
MSRP (Edmunds MSRP w/o destination charge) of a:
2009 Passat Komfort w/ 4cyl 2.0T auto = $28300
2009 CC Sport w/ 4cyl 2.0T auto = $28200
2009 Camry XLE V6 auto = $28695
2009 Accord EX-L V6 auto = $28705
Which one should be classified as the "entry level luxury model"? The CC costs less! I realize that you can get a lot higher with the CC if you want to get in 4motion and all that but I think it can be very competitive with the rest of these at the lower price points.
The Passat doesn't even offer a V6, so a base price of $28,300 is still a jump over the $26,830 of the (loaded without Nav) Accord EX-L. Add options to the Passat, and you can easily top the $30K barrier.
My issue isn't with the Passat, it's with the CC. Put a V6 in the CC, and prices START at $39,310, a full $10K MORE than the Accord. You may not think it's an "entry level luxury model", but at that price, I wouldn't even be looking at a VW.
Competitive? Not quite IMO...
all state of the art technology at a cost of $1.4 billion. This supported
by many engineering divisions here in the US. The sheet metal for the
body is bought in the US and molded there on site. All the engine is
bought in blocks of aluminum and 150 machines turns those chunks
of metal into Hyundai USA Sonata engines. One of only a few car
makers that actually build their own engine in the same facility.
According to critics that plant in Alabama is one of the most
sufisticated in the world. They also offer free tours of their place,
check on Hyundai USA website there is a 10 minute video to watch.
Interesting!!!
I own one a 2009 SE V6, this is a quality vehicle, my 23rd vehicle
since the early sixties. This car has everything in it that is not a
special order add on.
Now I'll say if you can find a midsize family sedan that has what the SE
trim has, ( at anywhere near the price) with the V6, post here what it is
and where it is and I'll highly consider it. I did a lot of homework before
buying this thing. Consider the facts it has the largest interior volume
in the class, the longest warranty in the business, and among the leaders
in the MPG rating.
Someone just mentioned about the power of a Sonata, well go test drive
and I4, and that should give you a good idea. Some of this is opinion
most is fact. Everyone has the choice to drive what they want this happens
to be mine for all it's worth. HAPPY MOTORING
If you want to consider the VW CC a luxury car just because it is priced high in some forms that's your perogative. I don't consider VW or the CC to be a luxury brand or car but I agree that when optioned out it isn't in the same price range as most moderately priced midsized cars. The CC sport could be bought for around 26k street price last fall which isn't that bad.
Even though I don't consider the Maxima as a luxury car either, it's base price of over 30k certainly puts it into a different league than what we usually talk about here I agree.
Which Korean cars did you own that were built both in Korea and the US? I ask this because I happen to know it would be very difficult (but not impossible) to have owned a Korean car that was made in Korea, with the same model also made in the US.
Same question, for the German cars you've owned that were built both in Germany and in the US. Actually, I'd be interested to know which Japanese dual-sourced models you have experience with too. My limited experience with that, e.g. Civic, is that the US-made vehicle was of exceptional quality, with no perceived difference compared to the Japanese-sourced car.
Actually I've owned several cars over the years from Asian manufacturers, but made in the US: a Honda Civic, two Nissan Sentras, a Mazda 626 (still own that), and a Sonata (still have it). I've also owned seven Japan-sourced cars: a Civic, two Corollas, a 626, an MPV, a Galant, and a Celica. I didn't notice any significant different in quality amongst these different vehicles, based on origin. Actually the most unreliable of them was one of the Corollas. But all were relatively trouble-free, and with quality fit and finish. As someone else pointed out, many of the parts for US-made cars with foreign brands come from overseas. The designs are the same, with minor modifications for different markets e.g. folding vs. non-folding mirrors or more airbags. Most of the assembly these days is done with robots--which don't vary in quality based on the country they are sitting in.
I've owned a Korean built 97 Elantra station wagon ------------ excellent car (87,000 miles put on it without any repairs except tires. Still had original brakes & original timing belt on it.)
I've owned a Korean built Santa Fe LX ----------- excellent car (161,250 miles put on it without any problems)
I've owned a US built 97 Camry CE -------- This car had fit & finish quality problems, BUT 52,000 miles put on it. But no mechanical problems)
I've owned a Japanese built 82 Celica GT -------- excellent car (180,000+ miles put on it.) NEVER had any fit & finish or mechanical problems with this car.
I've owned a Japanese built 85 Civic S ---- excellent car (77,000 miles put on it.) NEVER had any problems with this car. Car got hit and totaled in an accident.
I've owned a German built 74 VW Beetle ----- excellent car. Purchased used and owned it 4 years. Sold it for the price that I paid for it ($1,550.00) when it had 90,000 miles on it.
I've owned a USA Pennsylvania built 81 VW Rabbit Diesel ---- HORRIBLE HORRIBLE car. Many mechanical and fit and finish quality problems with this car. Piece of $hit. Repair bills UP THE A$SS with this car. I purchased my Japanese built 85 Civic S after I sold this car. It was the best thing that I ever did.
I currently own a brand new US Kentucky built 2010 Camry LE ---- This car is too new so far to know whether or not it will have any mechanical problems or any fit and finish quality problems. Only time will tell.
All the cars above have been purchased brand new for the exception of the 74 VW Beetle.
The ONLY vehicles which I've had problems with were the ones which were built here in the USA.
NONE of the vehicles which were built in Japan or Korea that I've owned which I listed above ever had any mechanical or fit and finish quality problems. That's why I believe that USA built cars under foreign badge names like Toyota, Hyundai, VW and Nissan are NOT built well. Most of them have fit and finish quality problems at the least.
That's a good one.
So your statements re your direct experience with relative quality are not very credible.
you buy a US made 2010 Camry, you may have shot yourself in the foot!
Sorry, this is a second comment, how do fit and finish issues develope
along the way, I think that refers to when it is built, if I have an issue of
quality I just won't buy it. I have a 2002 Mazda 626 built here over 150K
miles no trouble at all, the only issue I have with it is, I can,t seem to
wear it out or get rid of it.
And I owned a gasoline Rabbit, built a couple of years earlier in Germany, that was at least as bad as yours. The Rabbit, wherever it was manufactured, was a nightmare to own. I thought everyone knew that by now.
On the other hand, my experience with Honda goes back to the mid-70s. My Ohio-built Accord was a winner. We kept it for almost 12 years - only got rid of it because we were in the mood for something new - & it was rock-solid & trouble-free right up to the end.
Probably the worst Japanese car that we owned was a Nissan Stanza (precursor to today's Altima) that was built in the Home Islands. Really not a bad car -- just not as good as the Honda.
At the end of the day, the only conclusion that you can draw is that some cars turn out to be better than others.
One more thing: given the sky-high wage levels in Germany - the German auto worker is the world's best paid - & the strength of the euro vs. the dollar, you shouldn't expect to see many more German-built VWs shipped to the U.S. It just isn't possible to make money building cars in the Fatherland. loading them onto boats for the trip across the Atlantic & then selling them for no more than $30K. Think about it.
I predict that within 3 to 4 years, anyone who really wants a German car that's actually built in Germany will have to pony up a minimum of $50K for a 5-series Bimmer or an E-Class Mercedes. All of the lower-priced German cars will be manufactured outside of Germany - if not in the U.S. or Mexico, then in one of the former Soviet-bloc countries.
'American' Cos. but NOT necessarily American cars - unless, of course Canada and/or Mexico magically have been annexed. If you consider the economic impact of spending your hard earned $ on things like Mexican made Fusions, Canadian made GM and Chrysler products etc etc. you are likely doing more for this country spending it on things like Camcordimas and/or Sonatas.
Possible. MB has already given some indications that the next C-class will be built in Alabama alongside the ML.
Local News Link to MB C-Class
She has a Santa Fe with a moonroof, which leaks in the car wash. She bought it used, but still has the 5/60k warranty (its a 2007 with 26k miles on it). The dealer looked at it once under warranty and came up with nothing. Now she's carrying it back to have some other things done (a squeaky seat, programming the locks) as well as having the roof looked at; now they are telling her, and I quote:
"Water leaks are only covered under the first 12 months or 12k miles."
I've told her that when she goes by today to ask them to show her those exclusionary terms on paper. It sounds like a load of hooey to me. On brakes or another normal wear item I can see that being the case; this isn't a normal item like that.
Any other Hyundai owners care to chime in? The Santa Fe boards are fairly quiet so I was hoping to get an answer rather swiftly in here, since she has a lunchtime appointment at the dealer (Tameron Hyundai in Hoover, AL). Since it would apply to any Hyundai with a leak, I figured I could get by with it.
I hope we do not go back to that argument again.... :sick: