Midsize Sedans 2.0

backy · February 2010

last time i checked camry is the #1 seller in america.

You didn't check very recently. In January, Camry was only #7, behind two trucks and four cars: Accord, Altima, Corolla, Malibu. Camry (and maybe Corolla too) will probably slip much more in the ranking for February.

iluvmysephia1 · February 2010

handles quite well for a $19,000-$25,000 midsize sedan.

If I bought one of these pups I would want the 6-speed manual. Which, BTW, is said to have a very smooth-operating clutch mechanism. One 2010 Suzuki Kizashi owner says his 2010 Suzuki Kizashi 6-sp.manual shifts better than the one on his Audi A3. Even.

Suzuki has managed to build a car that just invites me to take a test drive and see if it can out-handle my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS through the twisties.

akirby · February 2010

I thought ALL cars had knock sensors today. Just because it's tuned to run on 87 doesn't mean it can't knock due to bad gas or carbon deposits or some other problem. And you don't want to ruin the engine by letting it continue to knock.

Some vehicles are optimized to run on 87 but have the logic to advance the timing to take advantage of higher octanes to get more performance. I guess you could call this "tuned for premium", but there are some vehicles that are optimized only for premium and therefore "require" premium fuel. I think there is an in between that is a slight compromise on max performance but offers a wider range of operation from 87-93 octane.

kdshapiro · February 2010

I thought ALL cars had knock sensors today.

I didn't think so.

kdshapiro · February 2010

I guess it may not be the #1 selling car by the minute/second/nanosecond/picosecond, but if one looks at yearly totals it is.

jeffyscott · February 2010

I could be wrong, but I don't think Camry fell from being the number one selling car because a lot of Americans suddenly decided that they don't like the handling and/or suspension characteristics of the Camry.

thegraduate · February 2010

Why does one need handling?

I have a hard time going from my Accord to my girlfriend's Santa Fe, because the Accord handles so much better. Less tippy, feels a lot more secure taking the curvy off-ramp, and is simply more fun to drive. I've never had a ticket or caused an accident, and tend to beat EPA raings for my cars (the OLD ratings, not the new ones) so I'm not a hot-rodder.

Yes, my comparison is car to SUV, but it still demonstrates why I prefer a car with sharp handling; besides the obvious "better handling/sharper responses means better crash avoidance" argument.

akirby · February 2010

All I can find on it says "most" cars today have them. I'd be willing to bet all the major brands have them now.

m6user · February 2010

I have a hard time going from my Accord to my girlfriend's Santa Fe, because the Accord handles so much better. Less tippy, feels a lot more secure taking the curvy off-ramp, and is simply more fun to drive

I'm sure you don't mean too hard of time but it does amuse to hear of so many people having such a hard time adjusting from one vehicle to another. I used to rent cars for business trips a lot(I mean almost weekly for years at a stretch) and got quite an assortment over the years. Either I am just one super adaptable driver or there is some exagerration going on here. One person on these forums even said they got nausea from the floaty ride of a Camry. Someone else said they could hardly adjust back to their Mazda6 after driving an Optima for a week. I have a Mazda6 and I don't have much trouble adjusting after driving my pickup let alone an Optima which handles in the middle of the pack in this class from what I've read.

I think this great delta from the most cushy ride to the sharpest is a lot less than most people describe. Is there a difference? Sure, but it's not that of an Indy racer vs. a SUV. By the way, I also have a SUV and I find that taking the on/off ramps at around the posted speed is not a "tippy" affair at all.

kdshapiro · February 2010

Most is a bit tough to quantify, to know if your favorite car has them. I've never heard a manufacturer say premium optional. Although a number of them say regular optional.

backy · February 2010

I guess it may not be the #1 selling car by the minute/second/nanosecond/picosecond, but if one looks at yearly totals it is.

Actually, by yearly (2010) totals the Camry is NOT the #1 selling car. For all of last year, different story. But that was last year (not minute/second/nanosecond).

kdshapiro · February 2010

Actually, by yearly (2010) totals the Camry is NOT the #1 selling car. For all of last year, different story. But that was last year (not minute/second/nanosecond).

You're micromeasuring, whether admitting it or not. Let's refer back to this conversation by the end of 2010 and see what the totals are.

mz6greyghost · February 2010

Let's refer back to this conversation by the end of 2010 and see what the totals are.

Yes, lets. It'll be VERY interesting to see if the Camry is even in the top-five for total vehicle sales for '10.

Personally, I doubt it. Toyota's problems aren't going away anytime soon (considering they're still not even sure the acceleration problem is limited to the pedal/floor mats). From what I've seen/heard, along with talking to current Toyota owners, consumer confidence is shaky at best, and a fair amount of current owners will actually shop around for other makes/models, instead of going straight back to Toyota. I've heard some that flat-out refuses to buy another Toyota.

The Camry may stay within the top-three for midsize sales, but IMO that's still a gamble The Accord is still selling well, the new Sonata, which IMO will re-introduce Hyundai to new customers that had shunned Hyundai before, even the Fusion, Altima and Malibu may benefit from Toyota's fall from grace.

Unless Toyota dumps 'em into fleets (like Chevy with the Impala), I'm thinking there will be a new midsize sales leader for '10.

backy · February 2010

Yes, unless Honda stumbles, I expect we'll see the Accord back on top for 2010.

kdshapiro · February 2010

From what I've seen/heard, along with talking to current Toyota owners, consumer confidence is shaky at best,

Did you ask me? I'm mulling over a Camry. You may be right, I know people who still won't buy Ford and Hyundia. I wish I could pick the stock market as easily as some of these predictions.

jeffyscott · February 2010

...or there is some exagerration going on here...Someone else said they could hardly adjust back to their Mazda6 after driving an Optima for a week.

I think your interpretation may be exaggerating what was actually stated, what I posted was "when I got home and got in my Mazda6 I had to be careful driving home, even in changing lanes on the freeway, as I had gotten used to that vagueness and had to remember to not "oversteer"."

Note that this was with the former versions of both the 6 and the Optima. They have moved toward each other since then, based on reviews. For example, edmunds, talking about the new version of the Optima, said: "...Kia adds something that was lacking in the prior Optima  fun. With a suspension tuned by a former Mazda chassis engineer, the new Optima...makes for an enjoyable drive on a twisty road." Meanwhile many reviews have said that the new 6 does not have the handling that the prior version did.

m6user · February 2010

I totally agree the new 6 doesn't handle like the older version as I have one of the older and I realize it is quite touchy. Sorry I didn't copy you verbatim but my point still is that I just don't get that it's that hard. Possibly it's just me from all the rental cars and different cars I've driven. Maybe the old Optima was that bad. I have to take your word for it because I never drove one of those.

m6user · February 2010

Further, CR has found the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan twins have proven to be more reliable than a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry. Blasphemy, you say? To borrow a marketing phrase from the Blue Oval itself, Drive One and find out for yourself.

Above just posted on Autoblog.com. To think that Ford could overcome people burning up in Pintos and getting killed rolling over in their Explorers to be where they are today. Toyota will probably overcome their tribulations as well but it will take awhile. The bigger they are the harder they fall.

m6user · February 2010

Question:

What's the bigger reason the average Camry buyer bought a Camry, the way the car drives/handles or it's reputation for dependability???

ingvar · February 2010

I think it depends on a driver. Personally for me, Camry is an appliance, not a car, but some people may love to move forward:-)

backy · February 2010

It could be the way it drives. Many people like a smooth, quiet ride, especially given how bad the streets in some cities are getting (like mine). Camry has one of the smoothest if not the smoothest rides in the class.

Handling? That's another story. But think about how many mid-sized sedans never see a switchback or mountain canyon. They see a lot of grocery store parking lots and shopping malls, and city streets.

kdshapiro · February 2010

Absolutely. :shades

akirby · February 2010

I've never heard a manufacturer say premium optional. Although a number of them say regular optional.

There are 3 categories:

Regular. Even these vehicles have knock sensors. Knock can be caused by bad gas or engine problems (carbon deposits e.g.).

Premium required. These vehicles are not designed to be run with regular fuel although they probably can be safely run with regular under certain circumstances (e.g. light throttle in a turbocharged vehicle).

Premium recommended. These vehicles will run just fine all day on regular but will provide better performance with higher octane premium fuel.

All of these have knock sensors. It has nothing to do with the octane rating. The knock sensor is there to prevent engine damage which can occur on any engine. I would imagine only the cheapest engines from the cheapest mfrs would not have them today.

smarty666 · February 2010

I know right, here is another telling sign, Ford is doing much better but it hasn't past the Japanese yet, here are the just recently released ALG awards for resale value!!

the recent things with Toyota look like they have factored in since they have dropped a little bit!!!

https://www.alg.com/ResidualValueAwards

jeffyscott · February 2010

I did not mean to imply it was "hard" or that I "could hardly adjust", I meant the difference was very noticeable. When I started driving the optima, it was like "am I turning yet...how about now?", when back in the 6 it was like "oh, I am already changing lanes".

explorerx4 · February 2010

knock sensors have been out for decades, so i expect every modern engine has at least one.
direct injection in a volume vehicle is new technology for most manufacturers.

tlong · February 2010

I think the TL handles decently, well you have an 05 I think and I have a 08 and I don't know if the steering what changed but except for extremely tight curves, where the TL I do agree slips a little bit, I think it handles pretty good, high subjective I know

Perhaps it is because I went from a A4 to the TL. The TL is nowhere near as sharp as the A4. I'm already lusting for a better handling car once I put a few more years on the TL. I already have 94K miles, will probably go to about 150K.

m6user · February 2010

Really. You really think it depends on the driver. That's very insightful. Gee, which midsize car in this class is not an appliance and where do you draw the line or are they all appliances in your opinion?

m6user · February 2010

Agree. I think it's the way it rides and handles mostly. I know a couple of people that have Camrys in addition to my daughter who drives a company car(she had a choice but limited to only about 4 vehicles). They pretty much love the soft, quiet ride and don't like some of the more sporty cars because they are "jittery" and steer too quick in their words.

This leads me to think that if Toyota can get their act together safetywise, design some decent looking cars and upgrade their interiors.....they will be right back at or near the top.

Wow, didn't I pretty much just describe what Hyundai is doing right now?

jeffyscott · February 2010

The sensible thing for a company that wants to grow it's sales in the US is clearly to not make their cars too "jittery" or "steer too quick"

. If I wanted to sell a lot of cars in the US, I'd certainly target a soft ride and unquick

steering after looking at the huge sales of Camry and the still large amounts of sales of GM cars (many of which also tend to not "steer to quick" and have soft suspensions). There are far more cars like these sold in the US than there are of those like the Mazda6, etc.

It'll be interesting to see how much VW gives in to the majority of American's desires in their new US midsizer.

kdshapiro · February 2010

My BMW said premium required. When you read the owners manual it said it will run fine on regular, but with reduced performance as compared to premium. But the question remains how many cars in this segment have knock sensors?

A lot of technologies have been around for a while. HID for one. The cost on these have to be cheap enough that every car should have them, why don't they? Just because a technology has been around for decades doesn't mean it's on the vehicle. In order to squeeze the maximum fuel economy out of these cars, what you will see is any technology like direct injection, variable valve timing, etc. will be on every make.

explorerx4 · February 2010

according to wikipedia, the jeep 4.0 I6 had a knock sensor in 1987, i found some earlier applications, too.
the bmw 4.0 V8 has eight knock sensors.

acdii · February 2010

All cars that have computer controlled timing have knock sensors in them, not some of them, all of them, from the smallest 3 banger to the biggest V16. What most cars do not have is the octane sensor in the tank. It works the same way Flex Fuel cars do, by detecting the type of gas in the tank and adjusting the engine components accordingly. With DI engines, they do not need to run on premium fuel to obtain performance, especially when they add in turbos. However, they can run on Premium fuel and use every drop of it efficiently. There is more than just ignition timing to using higher octane fuel. You have the F/A ratio, the timing of the injection spray, the cam positions, and the spark timing. With all of these firing at just the right moment, you get the most power. The Hyundai Veracruz I had used this system, I saw more power and slightly better FE when it ran on premium, but not enough to warrant the constant use of premium.

tlong · February 2010

It'll be interesting to see how much VW gives in to the majority of American's desires in their new US midsizer.

Didn't VW try to do that in the '80s with the Rabbit? It got them nowhere. So they are going to take what makes them special and Americanize their cars. Then they can be soft AND have crappy reliability. It will be a disaster if they go this way.

m6user · February 2010

Agree. That's why I wonder why so many people think that every midsize car should handle like a 6, Altima or Fusion and if it doesn't it's a piece of crap. It's different strokes for different folks.....doesn't make one inherently better than the other. Hyundai Ithink is aiming for the wider audience of non-enthusiasts which is probably the direct opposite of the majority of people that frequent these forums regularly.

They have the SE for so called enthusiasts but they estimate that market, for them, to be only about 10% of total Sonata sales.

lilengineerboy · February 2010

Either I am just one super adaptable driver or there is some exagerration going on here. One person on these forums even said they got nausea from the floaty ride of a Camry. Someone else said they could hardly adjust back to their Mazda6 after driving an Optima for a week.

Adjusting your expectations to various vehicles is part of driving, that doesn't make it more enjoyable. Sure, when I am driving one of the E350 work vans, I don't expect it to handle like a Miata. That doesn't mean I enjoy driving the work van.

My Accord is a FWD car with all seasons, the wife has an AWD Legacy with snows (we see who gets the love in my house, eh). After a snow greases up the streets in the subdivision, its hard to re-adjust driving styles back to the the Accord after driving the Legacy.

The Subaru is a much more active driving experience than the Accord. It handles more sharply, you feel more of the road, it gives better feedback. I like it better. Does that mean I can't drive the Accord? No, it just means its not as much fun.

That said, before we got the Legacy, we test drove a Forrester and a CRV. Both made me feel nervous and less stable.

akirby · February 2010

Why don't you believe that modern cars have knock sensors? This is old, relatively cheap technology that prevents the engine from going boom. There is no reason for a modern engine not to have at least one. It has nothing to do with whether it's tuned for premium or regular fuel. Like I've said at least twice now - even an engine tuned to run on 87 can knock if you get bad gas or carbon deposits. The knock sensor prevents engine damage. It is not limited to Premium fuel vehicles.

m6user · February 2010

Adjusting your expectations to various vehicles is part of driving, that doesn't make it more enjoyable

That's kind of what I mean. I actually find it enjoyable to experience different vehicles and the way they drive differently. I don't think anything I've driven in the last 20 years was a terrible drive....just different.

I don't necessarily like to drive my 2wd V8 p/up when the streets are snow covered but I don't find it hard to make the adjustment, I just slow down.

lilengineerboy · February 2010

Adjusting your expectations to various vehicles is part of driving, that doesn't make it more enjoyable

That's kind of what I mean. I actually find it enjoyable to experience different vehicles and the way they drive differently. I don't think anything I've driven in the last 20 years was a terrible drive....just different.

Ahh okay I gotcha; the variety itself is what makes it enjoyable. I can understand that. I really like pizza but sometimes I want a cheeseburger instead.

akirby · February 2010

But when you get a cheeseburger, you still want it to be a good cheeseburger.

m6user · February 2010

I've never met a cheeseburger I didn't like.

lilengineerboy · February 2010

One's I've liked:
West Coasters: Hamburger Habit
Mid-Westerners: Casey's Tavern

Mid-size sedan content: Perhaps the consumption of these as a populace is why the "mid-size" sedans are bumping the "large car" category as we expand. It might also be why we suddenly need more horsepower to move around. And heavier duty suspensions.

syitalian25 · February 2010

well when the 2011 Sonata Turbo comes out with 250+ HP and only weights 3200 lbs. compared to the 3500+ lb. V6's you are so dedicated to, maybe you will reconsider. The 0-60 time will be a vast improvement over comparable V6's thanks to the reduced weight that is just not possible with a bigger engine. And the GDI provides much more torque and responsiveness than MPFI engines in the competitors.

Maybe you should go drive a Camry/Accord/Malibu V6 then head on over to your Hyundai dealer and check out one of the turbo 4's. Then when you realize the Sonata is the winner in almost every category over the competition with more standard features and a better looking car, check out the price tag and the warranty.

marvin6 · February 2010

You might also want to check with your insurance company. I checked on several vehicles: 2010 Fusion Sport V6, 2010 Toyota Camry V6 XLE, 2010 Hyundai Limited V6, 2011 Hyundai 4 cyl Limited. They rated in that very order with the Fusion being the least expensive and the new hyundai the most expensive. I think when you tell an insurance company "turbo" you will pay more. As I understand it the 2.0 hyundai will be a twin turbo. Idk, but I think this could not bode well with an insurance company.

tlong · February 2010

One's I've liked:
West Coasters: Hamburger Habit

Lilengineer,

You must be from my area. Everybody says In'N'Out is best, but I swear by the Habit. Ventura County?

To stay on topic, anybody noticed how the definition of mid-sized has changed? I still think of mid-sized as the Accords and Camry's from around 2000, but those are about the size of current Civics and Corollas, are they not? I personally think the current Accord and Camry are near boat-sized. The problem is I still want a premium car, but MY definition of mid-sized has not changed. That means I'm more attracted to current Jetta or TSX sized cars. Something around 180-185 inches long.

mz6greyghost · February 2010

We shall see, but it won't be for a while. The turbo hasn't hit dealerships yet, and it may be up to a year before they arrive. It also depends on the transmission, final drive, if there's turbo lag, and if there's added weight due to the extra options for the turbo.

backy · February 2010

Do you suppose the 2.0L turbo will be heavier than the 2.4L engine? I suppose it depends on if they are based on the same block. If the 2.0L is lighter, that would have the effect of improving the weight distribution on the turbo car.

lilengineerboy · February 2010

Do you suppose the 2.0L turbo will be heavier than the 2.4L engine? I suppose it depends on if they are based on the same block. If the 2.0L is lighter, that would have the effect of improving the weight distribution on the turbo car.

Turbo has a lot of heat associated with it. You might be able to get away with alloy or composite intake or exhaust manifolds with a NA engine, while the turbo might require cast iron or something like that. The pre-cat is so close to the exhaust on a modern engine anyway, I don't know if its going to notice a difference between the cat and a turbo in terms of heat.

Direct injection vehicles use the fuel as a coolant in the cylinder (adding gas directly into the cylinder cools it slightly). I don't know if that helps cool exhaust charge as well.

acdii · February 2010

The turbos on the new DI engines are very small compared to what they were years ago. They don't work the same way either. Years ago they would produce large amounts of boost, but would take a little while to produce it, hence the turbo lag others have mentioned. The new turbo enhanced engines are more economically designed, they don't produce gobs of boost due to the small wheels size, but they spin up very quickly and provide just enough boost to produce the HP and torque numbers you see listed. The turbos are also about the size of a 12" softball, not very big at all, which helps keep the weight down. For example, there is less than 200 pounds difference between an SEL AWD Flex, and the same model with Ecoboost. The displacement is the same, but it is a different engine. The main difference is that they are also much more fuel efficient than earlier turbo boosted engines, and can meet or exceed FE ratings on non turbo engines in its class, yet produce HP and torque of a much larger engine.

lilengineerboy · February 2010

I wasn't referring to the size of the turbos themselves. Like a K27 from a 70s/80s 930 is huge and laggy compared to the tiny turbos used on the VW 1.8t. Even looking at Chrysler's foray in to turbos in the mid-80s to early 90s, those were larger turbos with more lag than what is on a Volvo, VW, or Ecoboost motor.
A small turbo is more responsive, helps with torque, while a larger turbo helps more at the top. Some of the twin turbo cars used sequential turbos (I think the 93-95 RX7 did this) so the first turbo would actually help the second spool up faster.
Anyway, my original point wasn't that the turbos themselves were big and heavy, but the heat generated by a turbo required stronger, heavier materials than a naturally-asperated engine.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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