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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • syitalian25syitalian25 Member Posts: 303
    edited April 2010
    I saw the Kizashi at the NY Auto Show, and while it is probably the nicest sedan Suzuki has produced it is still not really in the class of a Malibu/Camry/Sonata/Accord. It was quite a bit smaller than the other midsize cars and looked much more like a really good competitor for the likes of a Civic or a Nissan Sentra. The interior and exterior were decent but it looks like a $20K car. From what I have heard the ride is very well tuned though, so perhaps that is what Suzuki focused on. From the review I have read on Insideline is sounds like a decent car but it is $27,500 for the AWD w/CVT and only 8.3 second 0-60, meaning it's not really going to be a car for driving enthusiasts. With it's smaller size and fun-to-drive handling I bet this car will sell great in Europe though.

    http://www.insideline.com/suzuki/kizashi/2010/2010-suzuki-kizashi-sls-full-test.- html
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The AWD w/CVT starts at $21,899, not $27,500
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    a 2010 Suzuki Kizashi GTS with automatic CVT and it is a great car. It feels solid and there were no rattles and it smooths over bumps very well. I didn't find any "numbness" in the steering at top center. The car steers and handles very well and like my '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS it begs you to push it harder into turns.

    I love that Jetta-like front end and I like the rear end styling as well. Right down to the faux dual exhausts. I can't seem to get this car out of my mind. But my wife and I are moving to NE Nevada (a gold mining town named Elko, though I am going to work in their hospital there in Elko) so for now I am going to just push the idea to the background while we move and get settled in. I have to wait for my Nevada RT license to come(it'll take 4-5 weeks) then we'll move up there.

    Nevada is wide, wide open. You've got Reno to the west and Vegas in the very south. Elko sits up to the NE and you have these Great Basin areas that are just huge stretches of land w/o any people or buildings. Cattle ranching is huge and in Elko mining is booming right now because of the spiking value of gold.

    Twould be a fun land to drive the new 2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport through. Last week we were driving back down to Arizona and we got caught in what was the worst snowstorm I've ever drove through. The '08 Lancer GTS handled it like a champ. It's Pirelli P-Zero Nero Mud and Snow Pinna all-season radials handled the snow very well. I had to get out and scrape the windshield wipers about 9 or 10 times. We slipped a bit but any vehicle would in that driving icy snow.

    Apparently Nevada gets a lot of snow. Going from the desert to the Great Basin mountain and valley region. Our host steve is in Boise, about 190 miles north of us there in Elko.

    But that's just it. I have driven a Kizashi and I want more. :shades:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    it's not really going to be a car for driving enthusiasts

    Since most of the reviews I've read on the Kizashi indicate that it handles the twisties much better than just about any midsize car I don't know why you'd say that. Also Suzuki is marketing this as a midsize as it's only a bit smaller than other midsizes but much larger than Civics/Corollas.

    I'd be curious as to which of the midsize sedans you mentioned that would qualify as a car for "driving enthusiasts". Is 0-60 time the only qualifier? If so, please draw the line as to what thattime has to be.

    I think most of the midsize cars you mentioned also sell on the street for around 20k unless substantially loaded. People are buying 2010 Sonatas for 15k and new 2011s for 20k so I firmly believe they would be classified as 20k cars.

    I'm not even sure a real driving enthusiast would be looking at cars in this category. However, I've never seen an absolute definition of what a driving enthusiast is. Most people throw the term around pretty loosely. A front wheel drive 4 cyl auto midsize family sedan is not a sports car just because they tighten the suspension a little, throw on some big rims and add "Sport" or "SE" to it's name.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    At least from looking at the length, the Kizashi, at 183 inches, is actually closer to the 177-179 inches of cars like the Civic, Corolla, Focus than it is to the 194 inch long Accord or Mazda6. But I think that says more about the gargantuan ;) size of the Accord and Mazda6 than it does about the smallness of the Kizashi.

    Of course, I am sure we will soon be hearing about the Kizashi being "cramped", just as we did about the first generation Mazda6 and the Ford Contour. This and the reviews of the handling, would appear to mean that I am destined to own one someday, since I had a Contour prior to my 2007 Mazda6.
  • syitalian25syitalian25 Member Posts: 303
    edited April 2010
    TheInsideLine said the AWD w/CVT starts at $27.5K but that is not what it seems to say on Suzuki's website so I guess they have their info wrong. And it's a nice little car, for sure, but if you are going to buy a small little car to whip around turns it would be nice if they offered the upper models with a turbo or something.

    http://www.insideline.com/suzuki/kizashi/2010/2010-suzuki-kizashi-sls-full-test.- html
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Yeah, it kind of falls inbetween dimension wise. It's wider than an Altima and same width as Camry but shorter than other midsizers. Weighs as much or more than most of them so it's kind of funny size. Like I said, Suzuki is marketing it as a midsize. It's kind of like the Jetta. A lot of people can't decide if it's compact or midsize because the dimensions fall all over the place.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    With the all wheel drive it almost seems as if the Kizashi was designed to compete against the old size Legacy but with the same CVT tranny that the new Legacy has. That is quite a niche and Suburu has got the reputation in that category which Kizashi will be compared against a lot.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    ...who would NOT buy a Suzuki, regardless of the quality of the product, due to the name alone? I mean, they are at the bottom of the barrel as far as reputation (which means they are vulnerable to staying in the U.S. market); they have very little dealer network; the new vehicles have no track record.

    Just as I would not buy a GM today, I would not buy such an obscure brand. Something like Subaru or Mazda is ok even. But not Suzuki (cars).

    Let them establish a 5 year track record of at least being a bit mainstream and then we can talk.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    ...who would NOT buy a Suzuki, regardless of the quality of the product, due to the name alone? I mean, they are at the bottom of the barrel as far as reputation (which means they are vulnerable to staying in the U.S. market); they have very little dealer network; the new vehicles have no track record.

    Are you confusing Suzuki with Mitsusbishi?

    The Mitusbishi engine that was in both of my folks Chryslers when I was growing up were very poor, although the '89 Galant I had was great. "Crankwalk" issues on the Eclipse GSX to make me steer clear.

    Experiences with Suzuki, the Chevy Sprints and Suzuki Swifts that were popular in HS and college seemed fine, and the Swift GTI was great in autocross. The GS500e that I would occasionally bum rides on was an awesomely reliable, forgiving beater of a bike.

    I really can't think of anything on my do-not-buy list right now, though. Just some manufacturers make more products that interest me than others.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, I would have a hard time buying a Suzuki if only because of the dearth of dealers. I don't have a problem buying the products, but I'd like a better support network... and I live in a large metro area (Twin Cities).

    As for comments on the small size of the Kizashi... that is actually one of the things I like best about the car. I just rented a 2010 Elantra for a week, it's shorter than the Kizashi, but has good leg room in back and a decent sized trunk. So it's all about efficient packaging. No reason a car can't have mid-sized room in a 183-inch package.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Are you confusing Suzuki with Mitsusbishi?

    Nope. But I'd put Mitsu in the same category. Heck, my mom had an Expo LRV. But when you have such a rare vehicle, (like my mom) and the only dealer within 40 miles goes out of business (like my mom), you have a problem. Doesn't really matter how nice the vehicle is. Doesn't matter if the company has been in business for 100 years or has a huge market share in Timbuktu. If it's not a decently established brand, I'm not touching it -- especially if the competition is comparable. How many years has Suzuki been selling cars in the US, under their own name? And how come I virtually never see one? Even Mitsu is more common.

    Now if I was a mega millionaire and I was buying Lamborghini, RR, Bugatti, Ferarri, etc., then I probably wouldn't care.
  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    FWIW, Mitsu sales are on par with Volvo and are well ahead of Suzuki, selling nicely over twice as many per month. Suzuki's sales are down over 60% year-on-year; Mitsu is down just 1.5% but appear to be on the upswing. Mitsubishi's March sales were good; up 17% over March 2009 (Suzuki was down almost 72%). Source: http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html#autosalesE

    Mitsubishi's overall market share is small, and will remain so. I'm sure it was disappointing and caused a loss of faith when your dealer closed, but while isolated instances of dealers shutting down is bound to happen I don't think the brand is in danger of leaving the US (unlike the shuttered brands from GM). That said, and to keep this about midsize sedans and not the automakers themselves, Mitsu does desperately need an all-new Galant to get competitive against the likes of Kizashi, Sonata, and the others.

    Mitsu at least has an advertising budget even if it isn't huge. When was the last time you saw Suzuki do sustained advertising on TV? Here in the Chicago suburbs I see Mitsus on the road every day (not including my Outlander ;) ) but though I drive by a Suzuki dealer on my commute, I'll go weeks at a time between spotting them on the road.

    Lamborghini, RR, Bugatti, Ferarri

    Both Mitsu and Suzuki outsell those brands combined, though at not quite the same profit margins. :D

    My commute takes me past the region's Lambo dealer: http://www.foxvalleymotorcars.com/ Ferrari isn't far away. There's also a Bentley dealership. You can even go slumming and hit Lexus and MB if you want. :shades:
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited April 2010
    Suzuki SUV on the road here in Arizona and lots of Trackers, the little Suzuki SUV sold by Chevy. In fact my boss here in Willcox, AZ, owns a Tracker. He loves it.

    I have read nothing on this thread that even comes close to scaring me away from buying a 2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport in August of 2010. Coming to a Suzuki dealer not near you.

    image

    This baby had it's teeth cut on the Autobahn, of all places.

    BTW-that Kizashi in the background is not a Platinum Silver Metallic one, it's in a shade of grey. Anyone who wants to look that particular color up and list it in a post on here will get today's Midsize Sedans 2.0 hardest worker for April 8, 2010 award. I have other fish to fry at this time.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Coming to a Suzuki dealer not near you.

    Unfortunately true, but still a funny line! :D
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    edited April 2010
    Are you confusing Suzuki with Mitsubishi?

    I would stear clear of Suzuki, to be honest. I would consider a Mitsu if it was a Lancer or Outlander. They have proven to be pretty reliable.

    I had an Eclipse GS-T from 1998. The motor (4G63) and tranny were great, however, the upholdstry was poor. Man, I loved that car...
  • shabadoo25shabadoo25 Member Posts: 232
    Ehh, if I wanted a Jetta, I'd just buy a Jetta. Enough already.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Here's an interesting poll Autoweek is running right now regarding the best mid-size sedan in the US market. The Fusion is the runaway leader at the moment ahead of some outstanding competitors. The thing I found interesting is the Sonata is well ahead of the Accord and far ahead of the Camry. And this is from an "enthusiast's car magazine" as voted on by their readers. Who'da thunk a Hyundai could ever make a list like this and show up this well? Very interesting!

    http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/pollstats?Kategori=bestcsegment&ID=173

    ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Not really surprising considering the new swoopy styling of a brand against the relatively vanilla volume-selling Accord and Camry, which are both closer to the end of their model cycle than the beginning.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    edited April 2010
    Wow! It's not like the Fusion is ahead by only a few points, but a full 20%?

    The Malibu has more votes than the CamCords as well...
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Look at the Milan which is almost the same car as the Fusion. It came in at .8% which is far worse than the Camry or the Accord. Also the Fusion is so far ahead that it's crazy. Not putting a whole lot of stock in this survey, in fact.....none.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited April 2010
    Think some ballot stuffing is going on? I actually prefer the Milan to the Fusion. It could just be a name recognition thing. There might be lots of folks who don't even know the Milan is the twin of the Fusion.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    agreed, you would expect vehicles like the Camry and Altima to be lower since they are the oldest designs in the mid-size segments right now (2007s); plus keep in mind, I think Toyota introduced the new Camry early, like March of 2006 so its really a 4 year old design already.

    The Accord and Malibu are 2008's so they would be second oldest.

    Fusion and Sonata are the newest hip designs right now so you would expect them to grab the votes like they did! Their in the lime light right now because of their sleek, unique body styles, and good fuel economy/value.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Look at the Milan which is almost the same car as the Fusion. It came in at .8% which is far worse than the Camry or the Accord. Also the Fusion is so far ahead that it's crazy. Not putting a whole lot of stock in this survey, in fact.....none.

    It's a name recognition thing. Ford is promoting the Fusion much more heavily, and that is the car that has received all the press, regardless of badge-engineering.

    Anybody else think that Honda has really blown an opportunity here? They could have made a tasteful update to the previous Accord, maintained the size, and when Toyota got into trouble, Honda would be the obvious choice. Although the Accord is not a total strikeout, it has been far less successful than it should have been. Now you have Ford getting a big advantage, partly due to the Toyota problems, but also not only due to the quality of the vehicle, but also due to Honda's dropping of the ball.

    As a former big Honda fan, this is saddening. Their tight driving cars with great ergonomics have turned into bloated cars with much less personality. I agree with a comment I read that Mazda is the new Honda. And it looks like Hyundai is quickly becoming the new Toyota.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    > I actually prefer the Milan to the Fusion.

    I also like the Milan. I see a black one around town fairly often. It has more grace than the Fusion. But understand I wouldn't reject a Fusion either; I just really like the Milan.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Polls are one thing, but sales are where people put their money where their mouth's are. :shades
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The only thing I dislike about the Fusion is that the Ford badge is too large on the trunklid; it simply doesn't fit under the brakelamp.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Am I the only one who thinks the Fusion is not all that great? I'm not high on the styling, and I really don't think the interior is very nice either. It is decently put together, but, it's nothing special.

    I'm not saying it's a bad car, not at all. I just don't think it's all it's hyped up to be. I suppose the hard core marketing blitz that Ford is doing is really paying off. It shows you what marketing dollars can do! Now, only if Mazda could advertise like that.....hmmm....
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Think some ballot stuffing is going on?

    Looks like some Fusion fans and/or employees had some time on their hands. It is so far out of wack it's funny. It's an online poll that I'm assuming one can vote as many times as one wants and they obviously did. Pretty silly to even publish such a thing and call it a "best of survey".
  • midas69midas69 Member Posts: 118
    Am I the only one who thinks the Fusion is not all that great? I'm not high on the styling, and I really don't think the interior is very nice either. It is decently put together, but, it's nothing special.

    Well I test drove the Fusion immediately after driving the Sonata. I bought the Sonata the next day. I agree with, not a bad car. Probably well made. But I just didn't think I'd want to stare at that interior for the next 5 years.
  • andyfromvaandyfromva Member Posts: 79
    I'm not crazy about the Fusion either. I like its front end but the rest of the car is boring, boring. And its interior is spartan as well. It is comfortable and has a nice ride.

    Even though I didn't buy one, the Malibu is a car I really like. Very sweet styling and an outstanding interior. A soft, Camry-like ride too. My only problem was that the driver's seat was too small for my, uh, posterior.

    I bought the Hyundai Sonata a month ago. I still love the exterior styling and comfortable front seat but I have to admit the interior could use some more Malibu-like plushness. It gets great gas mileage and has a pleasant ride (but not as soft as the Malibu). Does it sound like I have some buyer's remorse? Maybe a little.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    edited April 2010
    It's an online poll that I'm assuming one can vote as many times as one wants and they obviously did.

    It's an online poll, but voting is only open to Autoweek print and online subscribers, which I am one. And you can only vote for one vehicle and can only vote one time total.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Wow. That is surprising. Even though it's still kind of a popularity poll it's amazing that the Fusion would be so far out in front. I like Autoweek but since it's one vote only it makes the results even stranger in my opinion.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    although the fusion is capacity limited, it has a wide range of models.
    maybe it just works for a more diverse audience.
    mine has awd, how many of the others even offer that?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Maybe that's it. Fusion has the Sport, the base for MPG, the AWD and the Hybrid plus the 3.0 V6. The Milan has fewer choices and is obviously a smaller brand to begin with. I'm still kind of shocked it would that far ahead of all the others though.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Fusion sales are at an all-time high. It offers AWD, a competitive I4, a hybrid, a flex-fuel V6 and a V6 sport plus Sync and great handling with decent styling. Add in the public sentiment towards Ford and it shouldn't be that hard to believe.
  • syitalian25syitalian25 Member Posts: 303
    edited April 2010
    I have the new Sonata and an 09 Malibu LT ... the power and handling is way better in the Sonata. By far. The interior on the Malibu is probably the nicest in class and is very plush, but the Sonata's is not far behind. The Sonata has also been getting better gas mileage.. the Malibu is still a great alternative for would-be Camry buyers though. Overall, the Sonata is a better car, although rides a bit firmer (not a bad thing, just different) and a bit less interior luxury.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited April 2010
    I think the real beauty of the Fusion, and Milan, is in how they drive, not their looks. I much prefer the looks of several other mid-sizers to the Fulan--Sonata, Mazda6, Altima, Passat, Malibu, Legacy, Kizashi, and the new Optima. I agree the interior is no great shakes, and inferior to several competitors. But the real greatness of the Fusion is in its ride/handling balance, plus it offers a good range of powertrains with an efficient I4 at a low starting price. And it's been reliable--a key quality for a mid-sized family sedan.
  • syitalian25syitalian25 Member Posts: 303
    I like the way the Fusion rides and considered getting the V6 Sport but 1) it was a lot of money and 2) the styling is nothing great IMHO. The front looks like a Mach 3 razor and inside was nothing to write home about. It had a very utilitarian feel - square, perfectly aligned buttons, lots of metal.. idk, not for me. The Accord was definitely a better looking car inside and out.. but even better than that was the new Sonata for thousands less so I went with that.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    what about a 4 cyl fusion, do you really need the power of a v6?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, Ford actually went backwards on the 2010 refresh of the Fusion. The front end used to look like a Fusion razor, with 5 "blades". Now it's just the old Mach 3. Not even a Mach 3 turbo. ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The front end used to look like a Fusion razor, with 5 "blades". Now it's just the old Mach 3. Not even a Mach 3 turbo.

    I hear Gillette has a new Mach 3 EcoBoost coming out though... :D
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Ok, ok, I know the Fusion is the best thing since sliced bread but for a survey to come out with the Fusion that far ahead is still hard to believe. It doesn't equate to sales at all.
  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    And you can only vote for one vehicle and can only vote one time total.

    Until you delete the cookie and vote again. ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It doesn't equate to sales at all.

    Does that matter?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It doesn't equate to sales at all.

    It won't because not everyone who votes is actually buying a new midsized sedan right now. I'm sure there are a LOT of folks who like the Fusion and plan on buying one at some point in the future. That doesn't necessarily translate to current sales.

    Besides, it's only a survey in a magazine. It's not a scientific process.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited April 2010
    No, but the reply to my post included the following:

    Fusion sales are at an all-time high

    So I was just commenting that the lead that in the poll doesn't equate to a lead in sales.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I'm sure there are a LOT of folks who like the Fusion and plan on buying one at some point

    If the lead in that poll indicates what you say then it's time to buy Ford stock. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    With the Fusion plus some competitive small cars (Focus, Fiesta) coming online soon, I'd agree with that.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Now if they could get the Taurus to take off. It's just kind of floundering IMO. Hardly see any on the road.
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