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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    edited May 2010
    Not all of 'em, some were midsize even to EPA

    image

    and I think better looking, too.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    What do you guys think about Jetta TDI? Overpriced? Reliability concerns? Wait for the 2011?

    The TDI engines should be around for well over 250K miles, as long as the car itself doesn't blow up before then. A friend of mine bought a '99 and '00 Golf TDI for his floral business, after owning a Rabbit Diesel that got over 300K miles. Unfortunately, both cars were affected with electrical gremlins (typical of VW as of late), and after the '99 needed a whole new fuel system and turbo, and the '00 lost it's second transmission, they were both retired with less than 120K miles on each, and my friend didn't quite get the $$$$ savings he expected (if any).

    I've heard that VW quality has indeed improved over the past two years or so, but personally, I still wouldn't drop a dime on a new one just yet. They are a bit pricey, but they offer a ton of standard equipment, and the interiors are quite nice.

    As for the '11, if you can wait, do so until the '11s hit the dealer lots. If they aren't that impressive, you should be able to get a good deal on any left-over '10s.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Great design by Ford in the late 80's, early 90's. I think it still looks good.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    A large part of them were, though! The Taurus was big enough that they brought out the Contour to compete more directly with the more lithe Accord, 626, Altima-size cars in the early/mid 90s, right? I can't remember when it made its really round debut. :)
  • syitalian25syitalian25 Member Posts: 303
    Or she could get a new Sonata Limited for about $24K and it wouldn't be three years old and it'd still have 100k mile warranty left. Not to mention 4 MPG better on the highway and a lot more space. Just my opinion of course, the TSX is a nice car but the resale is so high that buying one used is almost a ripoff. I mean the new one starts at $29K, so you only save $7K (less than 25%) by taking it used? That is not very much compared to the savings you could get on other 2007 models.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Yes, first year for Contour was 1995...I have no idea if the reason was to compete against the fake midsize cars from Japan ;) .

    Others that were midsize according to EPA criteria were the Lumina and the Plymouth Acclaim (and Dodge whateveritwas). I also looked at the Passat, and it too made was EPA midsize.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The Acclaim and Spirit ;) were midsize? They look so small in size; Tempo-like. I always thought of the Lumina as a full-sizer in how it was sold, much how I view the Taurus (they have evolved into the Impala and, well, the Taurus today). My '96 Accord sedan is my relative measuring stick here. All 33 inches of rear-legroom. :)

    image

    image
  • vigorlovervigorlover Member Posts: 40
    Tina Turner crossed her legs in the back seat of Plymouth Acclaim in their TV commercial, so it must have been big, right? :)
  • vigorlovervigorlover Member Posts: 40
    MSRP of 2011 Sonata Limited is $26k (no Nav, she likes her Garmin), I have a 2007 TSX (no Nav) in my sights at a dealer listed at $22k which looks brand new, and is still in warranty. So a $4k difference to start. I don't know if Hyundai is willing to deal on the 2011 Sonata right now as it is recent and selling fairly well I understand.

    Personally, I just like TSX better. Yes it is a little smaller and gets slightly lower mileage (and uses Premium gas, but at today's prices is just 7% higher than regular) but the interior is so much nicer. Sonata looks very nice but much of it is hard plastic, and the leather is not so soft either. My girlfriend is currently driving a 2000 Corolla, so just about anything will be larger and a big step up.

    In any case, she is pretty well sold on Jetta TDI now. I will have to look into when the 2011 will come out, and see if she is willing to wait for it.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    The 2011 jettat will have a serious makeover. No deals there but the 2010's may have better deals before the intro.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    That's what EPA says, regarding the Acclaim/Spirit.

    Meanwhile, while you were pretending that your Accord was midsize ;) , the compact Contour was getting slammed for a cramped back seat? With 34.3 inches of rear seat leg room :confuse: .
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I implied it was shopped as a midsize (its similar in size to my folks' 2007 Civic), but it definitely doesn't have legroom for people over 5'10" to sit in the back!
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Are you sure you're not confusing the Acclaim/Spirit with the smaller Shadow/Sundance?

    I was selling these beasts in the spring of 1990, and the Acclaim/Spirit were generally cross-shopped with the slightly larger Taurus, Century, et al.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I am sure I'm thinking of the right car (our neighbor had one many moons ago, a light blue Acclaim). As an adult I've always put them in the same size class as the Grand-Am, Contour, Alero, 626, Gen II Altima, etc. That size class has all-but-disappeared in the last five years, but the "economy" cars are approaching this size class now.

    I never had seat-time in a Spirit/Acclaim, so I'm going by what I remember, albeit vaguely.

    Now that I think of it, my junior-high band director drove a dark green Dodge Spirit V6, and uplevel model.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Interesting, two cars seats and a booster in the back seat at the same time? The only car I was able to do that in was my 2001 Crown Vic. My 2010 Fusion Sport has 2 car seats in it now, and they are a breeze to get in and out. The perfect family car for a family with 3 kids is the Flex, very easy to get in and out of, and VERY easy to install car seats in.
  • yongseokyongseok Member Posts: 7
    Hello folks,

    I'm a kind of newbie in this forum and I have hesitated it for a long time but I decide to post about my 09' Accord or 10' Accord acceleration (LX-P / 2.4l / v4).

    Actually, I read plenty of articles about "09 Accord v4 has ample power" and "more sporty driving" than Camry and other midsize sedan.

    However, I realized that it's not that fast (I know. I don't expect Porsche's acc eleartion from my Accord). Even it's "much" slower than my 08' Volkswagen Rabbit.
    Also, for the sporty driving, what I can feel is only "loud road noise". The car leans a lot in cornering and after 60-70mph, it's really hard to accelerate in normal way. To reach around 80mph, I really did "floor" it. (Not at all in my Rabbit)

    I know Accord is more family sedan than Rabbit but I'm very disappointed at this.

    I'm not really sure if it's happening at my car but the mileage is only 12,000 and this is bothering me a lot.

    Do I expect too much? Also I can read a lot of evaluation results which are saying 09', 10' Accord is one of the slowest car in this segment.

    I would like to listen you guru's opinion on this.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Your concerns seem consistent with many reviews. I think the 4 cyl camry feels quicker. Comparing them to your rabbit isn't fair. The jetta and probably the passat would give you the euro ride in a more family friendly car. If you had bought an acura tsx or got the V6 in the accord you would likely be smiling now instead of posting on this thread.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The perfect family car for a family with 3 kids is the Flex, very easy to get in and out of, and VERY easy to install car seats in.

    As long as you don't EVER have to park next to anyone, or in the garage next to a car you like. A perfect car for a family with 3 kids is one with SLIDING DOORS. My Ford friends either 1. dont put the Flex in the garage, 2. only put the Flex in the garage, or 3. have Miatas/Mustangs that look like golf balls.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You must have a small garage. I've parked Expeditions and Explorers alongside midsize cars and never had a problem opening the doors.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    As long as you don't EVER have to park next to anyone, or in the garage next to a car you like

    Funny, I park mine in the garage everyday, next to a Grand Marquis, and there is plenty of room to get in and out, from both sides!. Mini vans are for wimps, real people drive a Flex! LOL :shades: The doors on the Flex are not that much bigger than the ones on my Fusion Sport. The ones on my F350 however are huge, and there is only enough room to get in from one side if parked in the garage.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    You must have a small garage. I've parked Expeditions and Explorers alongside midsize cars and never had a problem opening the doors.

    Eh, show me the garage you parked the Expedition in...

    Most of the houses in the sub have 2.5 car garages, and still the Flex is either the only thing in the garage or the only thing in the driveway.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Funny, I park mine in the garage everyday, next to a Grand Marquis, and there is plenty of room to get in and out, from both sides!.

    Yup, for the driver...its not the front doors that got Honda Oddesey'd or Mazda MPV'd.

    Its the back doors that are extra long and make ingress and egress so easy (so long as you have an acre on either side). Installing a child car seat in an MkT in the parking lot of Babys R Us was an off peak experience I don't need to repeat any time soon.
    I am sure for older kids and teens, its a great vehicle.

    This "wimp" wants sliding doors and is secure enough not to need a psuedo-stationwagon-crossover thing when driving my family around. Maybe the Ford Focus based minivan thing (think Mazda5) will fit the bill.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    This "wimp" wants sliding doors and is secure enough not to need a psuedo-stationwagon-crossover thing when driving my family around. Maybe the Ford Focus based minivan thing (think Mazda5) will fit the bill.

    I guess I just don't see the wimp issue with sliding doors. I don't really want to bounce along the road at higher cost in fuel and purchase price to show I have enough testosterone.

    We have a Mazda 5 and are very happy with it. It handles really well and has outstanding steering for what it is. I wouldn't find it nearly as good if it had swinging doors. They open really wide and you don't have to worry about dinging the car next to you.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    To each their own. I hate minivans, period. If I wanted a van I would get a real one. As far as the doors on the Flex, I have 3 kids, 2 in car seats and I can get both of them in to the 3rd row, while parked in the garage, from both sides. I don't know about the MKT, but getting the seats installed in the Flex was a snap. I can do it from the tailgate, without getting in. I can install them in the second row, in minutes, without getting in. I got the model with 40/40 second row, knowing that the bench would be a pain. As far as FE, minivans aren't any better than what I drive. It isn't as tall, it handles better, and can tow 4500 pounds. I have never been in a situation where I couldnt open the doors, then again I tend to park away from others, because most people are ignorant and will smack their doors into others cars and not give a S**t.

    How did this get in the Sedans anyway?

    Ford Fusion Sport baby, that's the winner! AWD, Lots of power, lots of room, lots of comfort, and very high quality! It isn't a cheapo Camry.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    How did this get in the Sedans anyway?

    Because you brought it in. IE from your post from May 8th is below after different posters mentioned car seats.

    "The perfect family car for a family with 3 kids is the Flex, very easy to get in and out of, and VERY easy to install car seats"

    Why you often seem inclined to bring the Flex into a discussion of midsize cars is beyond me unless you just want everyone to know that you own one.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I don't really want to bounce along the road at higher cost in fuel and purchase price to show I have enough testosterone.

    I know 3 Caravan owners and all report right around 13 mpg city and 22 highway. I get 16 and 24 in my AWD Flex. IIRC the Sienna and Odyssey are right around 16 city in FWD mode too. I don't see the benefit in gas mileage you are claiming.

    As for price? Show me a comparably equipped Flex and minivan that don't cost about the same. The minivans have a slight space advantage but not everyone needs that extra space near the headliner. I certainly don't.

    I think you're thinking of last gen SUVs and not modern CUVs which are basically minivans with some SUV capabilities and without the fuel penalty.

    For the record my Flex sits next to an '08 Escape in our 83 year old detached 2 car garage. We have no problems getting in or out on either side and I've installed and un-installed the car seats in both several times with no problem. Yes, all inside the garage. When there was an Explorer and a Mustang in there it was worse because of the Mustang's long doors. Still not unbearable though.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I was referring to traditional SUVs (and their high bouncy rides and low mileage) in my comment. But I responded to a post that is drifting from the sedan topic so I'll leave it there.

    Any new sedans on the horizon? When is Honda due to refresh the ugly (IMHO) Accord? They used to be so competitive, but they are losing their lead with the last redesign. They need to get it together, fast.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    We covered that subject recently, but the next new mid-sized sedans coming out are the Regal and the Optima, both likely this year, then after that the US-made Passat. And the new Elantra, if we want to count the "small outside, big inside" cars.

    Funny how I see comments on the need for an Accord refresh, and the current design debuted for the 2008 MY. We likely won't see a new Accord until late 2012 at the earliest, unless Honda accelerates its product timetable.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    ...then after that the US-made Passat

    Another car that IMHO was screwed up with the last redesign. Look at how their sales have plummeted.

    We likely won't see a new Accord until late 2012 at the earliest, unless Honda accelerates its product timetable.

    I'm sure you are correct, as they have been conserving money like everybody else. I hope their next one looks better and even gets a bit smaller. Then restore some of the handling that it lost over the years.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Don't forget the turbo and hybrid version of the new Sonata are also arriving this fall. The hybrid is substantially different looks wise and, obviously, drivetrain. Don't think the turbo model will look much different though from what I've seen/heard.

    Is the VW new US made midsized sedan going to replace the Passat only? I thought I read somewhere where it will replace both the Passat and the Jetta and will be called Jetta II or something. I could have been dreaming though.

    It does seem like a lot of people ask about the Accord redesign when it is only in its third year. Maybe a major tweak versus a redesign. Anything would help IMO.
  • maxamillion85maxamillion85 Member Posts: 78
    a new Camry and Altima will be out next year too. Camry might be on sale by January.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Make me wonder if the front-end will get as drastic of a styling change with the MMC in 2011 as the rear of the last generation's MMC design (05 vs. 06).
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    yeah that sounds right!

    2012 Camry and 2012 Altima will be next generation redesigns while 2011 Accord and 2011 Malibu should be mid-life refreshing since its the 4th model year out of the 5 for the current generation!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, we won't see another Altima for about 18 months--kinda out there. The 2012 Camry could very well debut early next year, unless Toyota wants to, uh, accelerate the delivery schedule. ;)

    And the Sonata is already out as far as new designs go--yes, turbo and hybrid versions will be out pretty soon. When was the last time anyone saw me "forget" about a new Hyundai design? :)
  • maxamillion85maxamillion85 Member Posts: 78
    there are already spy shots of the next Malibu out...makes me wonder if GM is gonna facelift the car at all. I mean they could end up releasing the new Malibu sometime next year and skip the facelift all together since the current Malibu was only intended to be a "stopgap" design anyway. The car was only originally to last about 3 or 4 years anyway. Its already in year 3.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Agreed! I think we could see the 2012 Camry next February or March at the earliest. With the way Nissan has been with the Altima, we would be lucky if we saw it come out in August 2011, but most likely I would say October or November of 2011 we will probably see the 2012 Altima based on what Nissan has done in the past!
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I thought I had read that it was possible that VW would keep selling the Passat in the US, even after the NMS is here, but that they had not decided yet.

    According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_New_Midsize_Sedan
    they have just recently (March 31) decided to drop the Passat.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    That's also what I've heard, the NMS is replacing the Passat (with both Diesel and Hybrid versions rumored as well), and could very well replace the CC, which hasn't been selling nearly to expectations.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    If they would put the TDI engine in the CC they probably couldn't make enough of them.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Maybe, but at that price, I'd be shopping Infiniti, M-B, Audi, etc.

    The CC is suffering from the same fate that the Phaeton did, it's a Volkswagen, a "people's car", yet it's not priced like a VW should be to 99% of car buyers. That's also why the Genesis sedan hasn't taken the Luxury class by storm in terms of sales (nor will the Equus). People don't think Hyundai or VW for $35K+ vehicles.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited May 2010
    Well, there aren't any $35k vehicles in this mid-sized family-car class. ;)

    Watch, though... someone will load up an Altima 3.5 or Mazda6 V6, and it will creep over $35k...
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited May 2010
    Well, street prices for the CC run from about $27k to 34k which puts it just a tad higher than the street prices for the decked out versions of the midsize cars we are used to talking about here. But your're right, you can also buy the basic G37 for about $31-32k street price so that area around $30k is a pretty grey area.

    If the CC would offer seating for 5, a TDI getting 40+ mpg and VW could gain in reliability and dealer quality perception(and reality of course) they would sell very well IMO. I know that's asking a lot and possibly wishful thinking. The CC is just such a gorgeous looking car with a very nice interior it's a shame they can't get it right. We'll see if the new VW midsize can compete better than the Passat did and possibly become a player in this category.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The problem is that cars like the G37 and the TSX are amazing deals that are really hard to beat at their price-points. It takes some serious engineering to beat Honda and Nissan at their game.
  • maxamillion85maxamillion85 Member Posts: 78
    edited May 2010
    Altima is more like 15 or 16 months...but I get your point :) New generation Altimas almost always debut in late August, but considering the Altima is doing about as bad in comparison tests as the current Accord, it wouldn't surprise me if Nissan pulls a "Maxima" and releases the car by June 2011. Maximas usually debut in June/July.

    If Toyota follows their routine the Camry will be on sale right after the Detroit Autoshow...which is toward the end of January or early Feb.

    I'm really interested in the VW NMS...supposedly debuted late this year and it will have a diesel engine option...

    I'm no longer in the market for a new car...test drove the new Sonata and loved it, everything else in the class kinda bores me at the moment except Ford Fusion but I can't stand the current Fusion's interior design...looks real low rent IMO. I drove the current generation Altima (didnt like it at all), the new Accord (nice but a bit boring now) the current Optima, the Malibu and the Mazda6...nothing really got my attention. So I started looking at used cars and I found a Graphite Gray 07 Honda Accord EX-L 5spd manual sedan in mint condition got it for a good price and I jumped on it. My 05 Nissan Altima was literally falling apart at 146k miles.(engine issues, trim piece issues, suspension issues and lets not forget electrical issues) so I dumped it! The Accord from that generation is so much better than the Altima from around the same time in terms of build quality, steering/handling and refinement. Only area I believe the Altima excelled over my Accord was looks. Came REAL close to buying a Sonata...but the deal on the Accord was just too good to pass up plus I'm heading back to college this fall so the low payment on the Accord made more sense than going for the new, more expensive Sonata. Wish me luck guys! I'm going to pay it off in three years then look for a slightly used 2012 Sonata Turbo or Kia Optima EX/SX or pehaps something entirely out of this class (Focus)

    I kick myself everyday...I should have just gotten an Accord back when I got my Altima in the first place...you live you learn. :) ">
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 31
    Subaru Legacy (2010) should be included in this discussion - it is a great car and my choice of a few of these discussed {only owned for a few weeks, but very happy].
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
    Yeah the CC is an interesting car but it gets swept away in that price point grey area. Especially now with it being book ended by the Sonata on the low end, and cars like a G37 or A4 on the higher end.

    Sonata offers 5 seats, tons of standard equipment and the same sexy styling for what, 5k less? More?

    Then when you creep up to the low 30's you start to ask why you're spending that on a VW instead of an A4 or even a slightly used BMW. At least that's my thought process.

    That said, the interior does look nice in the images I've seen and it is a very sharp car in general.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Personally, I like the Altima, Fusion, Legacy, and Sonata right now of all the mid-sizers and always felt the Altima has been getting the raw end of the stick the last year in comparison tests, but its to be expected since that car and the Camry are the oldest in the group and their styles/age are really beginning to show! body styles don't last as long as they used to anymore, especially since this segment, with Ford's comeback, the new Sonata, and GM's beginning rise in status, has become super competitive to just 3-4 years ago!

    Personally, I like the Altima, it definitely has the best ride quality/handling balance of the big Japanese 3 and the interior was clean and simple looking and had better quality/fit & finish then the current Camry does(I know, doesn't appeal to everyone but it did for me); plus the Altima was a lot more quieter then the current Gen Accord on the road in regards to road/wind noise at highway cruising! But I do agree, while I like it, it badly needs a redesign because its age is really beginning to show, just like the Camry does!
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Local hyundai dealer is selling 2010 Azeras Ltd with 2k miles for 25k. Drove one -- very nice -- real wood trim and FAST. Way too much techno stuff for me -- don't need the nav. too many bells and whistles.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    edited May 2010
    Then when you creep up to the low 30's you start to ask why you're spending that on a VW instead of an A4 or even a slightly used BMW car. At least that's my thought process. :)
  • jlindhjlindh Member Posts: 282
    Where is local?
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