Midsize Sedans 2.0

aviboy97 · May 2010

Auto Pacific's Customer Satisfaction Award for 2010 along with the Lincoln MKT. Ford is for real and Suzuki just flat out hit the nail on the head with the Kizashi.

What is Auto Pacific?

My thoughts exactly....

As for the MKT....it has been a bust....Lincoln dealers are stuck with them. All it offers is a snazzy engine (3.5L Ecoboost). Lincoln as a company is still struggling...

acdii · May 2010

There are no wagons (well almost none), it's a "crossover".

Guess again. Right here on Edmunds if you look at new cars, and click on Station Wagons, list is 2011 Lincoln MKT.

Wagons

The Flex/MKT is indeed a wagon, a little taller, and not as long, but definitely a wagon. It reminds me a LOT of the 1979 LTD Wagon I had. It is not a crossover, the Edge is a crossover, the Freestyle was a crossover, but this is a wagon. The only difference is the tailgate goes up instead of down.

Kirstie_H · May 2010

It's often hard to put vehicles like that into a single category, and more & more manufacturers are labeling vehicles "crossovers," some of which I really, really think are wagons or minivans... but saying you drive a wagon isn't hip, while driving a crossover leaves your cool factor nebulously intact.

jeffyscott · May 2010

Yes, exactly...just as previously your cool factor remained intact, if you drove an SUV, or maybe it was more your manliness factor in that case, even if said SUV was really a minvan with hinged doors, rather than sliding.

Acdii also did not look closely enough, missing the fact that "crossover" is just a subcategory of "wagon" here on edmunds, go here:

http://www.edmunds.com/finder/type.wagon.html;f=%2Busein:new?cat=Wagon&reFacet=c- artype:Wagon&p=cvehicledata%23%23-1%23%23-1~~f66||436172~~f78||5761676f6e~~q

now look on the right side for "VEHICLE TYPE", and see this list:

Diesel
Crossover
Factory Tuner
Flex Fuel
High-Performance
Luxury
Performance

greatlakesjr · May 2010

Yeah, I forgot the Optima. In fact, because the styling on the Sonata is already wearing a little thin with me the Optima might just be a better choice as it has a more Europeon, classic look to it at least from the limited pictures I've seen. Of course, I loved the Sonata when I first saw the pictures too but am not liking it as well now that I've seen them on the road.

Purely subjective of course but the new Sonata never appealed to my wife or I even at first glance. We liked the more conservative look (and $5,000 discount) of the 2010 model and, in fact, purchased one a month ago. Great, great car and can only imagine how nice the added features and MPG on the newer model must be.

bobad · May 2010

Don't forget the Regal CXL lists at $27k and that includes quite a few luxury features including leather. That's many thousands less than a comparable Lexus, Acura, Audi, and MB.

Yep, that car will be on my short list when I'm ready to buy. Until then, I'll be watching customer satisfaction and repair records. I owned a German made Buick back in the day, and the car was nice, if a little rattly and unreliable.

shabadoo25 · May 2010

The fully equipped Regal they show in the ads retails for $38k, fyi.

m6user · May 2010

I think you must mean the LaCrosse. The only Regal they are advertising and selling now is the I4 CXL which has a base MSRP under 27k and heavily optioned it may get to 32k, fyi.

Check Edmunds new cars prices.

shabadoo25 · May 2010

Yeah, I meant the Lacrosse. Sorry.

dash5 · June 2010

Getting back to the 2011 Optima, this commercial feels like it's geared towards what I want:

2011 Kia Optima Commercial

Minus those rims, and plus a turbo engine.

Sporty, stylish, but you can fit a child seat in the back and there is room for adults back there too. On top of which you're not spending BMW money. Now the question is, where will this car (in turbo) top out? 30k? 32k? If I'm hitting 32 or up I have to cross shop with an A4 or G37 to see if that extra few thousand buys me enough car to be a value advantage.

I've only seen it in that color by the way, why is that? Do they feel this color is the best representation of the car?

backy · June 2010

I suppose it could touch $30k for the turbo, EX trim, with every possible option, but the turbo Optima will be available for much less than that, given that the Sonata SE will be available with turbo for well under $30k.

m6user · June 2010

Agreed. Don't know about the color as the silver is all I've seen as well. I see that the Sorento is selling well and they seem to holding prices reasonably close to MSRP and the same with the Sonata. Not your ginormous discounts as seen in the past. If the decked out turbo models sell for close to thirty which I think it will and agree with Backy, then the G37s, TLs and A4s will have to be looked at like you said. I've seen street prices of those just mentioned in the 32k-34k range and those prices are not for base models.

I see that Sonatas are being advertised in Chicago for a little more than Accord and Camry right now. That may change but I think it's a thing of the past where Hyundais are 2k-3k cheaper than the others. It's a good thing all around for us as it makes things a lot more competitive.

dash5 · June 2010

The fully loaded (non-turbo) Sonata, Edmunds has at around 27k for what people are paying. That's with Nav which I really dont need or want for 2,000.00. Still, fully loaded at 27k plus the turbo engine, panoramic sunroof, 18" wheels, dual exhaust and paddle shifters I can easily see being 30k on the Sonata. Guessing MSRP at 31 or 32k.

Not sure how the pricing and options structure will be on the Optima but guessing when all is said and done it will be close to the Sonata plus or minus. At the end of the day looks like I should see the Optima Turbo without Navigation for well under 30k. We'll see.

m6user · June 2010

You might be right and the NAV might be the only option that would throw it above 30k so a non-nav could probably come in at 29k or so.

syitalian25 · June 2010

That commercial makes the Optima look way more flashy than it is.. still a nice car but the one shown is the Korean version it looks like, which has things like LED fog lights which the US one doesn't. Here is the US version - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-lztiAmKVw&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Not as good looking as the Sonata but still a very good value, I know there are a ton of features

dash5 · June 2010

I'm not sure what if any differences there will be with the Korean K5 version and the US Optima but information is pretty spotty still. We know the Sonata Turbo will have extra goodies like a panoramic sunroof so I'm assuming the Optima will get some perks as well. No way that I can tint the windows as much as the car in the commercial legally though heh.

Definitely a nice looking car though from what I've seen. Similar to the Sonata but distinctly it's own car.

m6user · June 2010

Not as good looking as the Sonata

I'll reserve my opinion until the Optima hits the street and I can see it in person. I actually liked the pictures of the Sonata but once I began seeing it on the street, not as much. Still a good looking car and different than what we've seen though. Some people prefer a little more understated look and I guess I'm one of them. Besides, "good looking" is in the eye of the beholder and is strictly a personal opinion, not fact.

I just wish they would show the new Optima with some better looking wheels. Those look ok when they are spinning but I don't like them sitting still.

dash5 · June 2010

I find the Sonata to be more... i'm going to use the word feminine... curvy, modern. I've liked them in pictures and seeing them on the road. They definitely catch my eye.

The Optima (in images) looks a bit more masculine to me. Not quite hard edges but less swoopy. More aggressive. More like an old mustang as opposed to a corvette. (maybe that's a bad analogy)

Specifically from a profile view:

http://www.automobilesreview.com/gallery/2011-kia-optima/slides/kia-optima-2011-- 02.jpg

http://www.autos4fast.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/2011-Hyundai-Sonata-2.jpg

baggs32 · June 2010

I'll reserve my opinion until the Optima hits the street and I can see it in person. I actually liked the pictures of the Sonata but once I began seeing it on the street, not as much.

That's exactly how I felt. I'm just not liking the Sonata now that I've seen several in action. I did see a Kizashi on the road the other day and was more impressed with it in person than I initially was in pictures. I would take one of those over the Sonata if looks alone were my criteria. The new Optima looks pretty good to me too but it could be a train wreck in person like the Sonata is IMO.

My current ride is an '09 Flex, and I love the way it looks, so it's not like I'm into the conservative look either.

m6user · June 2010

I like the looks of the Kizashi too but that's kind of where it ends for me.

On another note, just read that Ford is holding a press conference at 3pm EST today and that they will probably officially announce the demise, and maybe a timetable, of the Mercury brand. Sad, but a sign of the times. Always liked the way Mercurys looked compared to the same Ford product.

thegraduate · June 2010

As far as the Optima goes, it still has that "Darth Kia" look to it. I dunno; I just don't like it yet.

backy · June 2010

I find your lack of faith (in the Optima) disturbing.

tlong · June 2010

I find your lack of faith (in the Optima) disturbing.

It'll (Optima) make the Kentucky run in 12 parsecs.

dash5 · June 2010

Just get it in white then!

http://2011kiaoptima.com/images/2011-kia-optima-white.jpg

mickeyrom · June 2010

It is depressing to me too.I always thought of the Merc as the cooler version of a Ford.I still do.Remember that Merc that James Dean drove in that iconic movie of the 50s,Rebel without a
cause? That defined "cool" for my generation.

dash5 · June 2010

I dont find it very sad really. Pontiac or Saturn either. If the brand is not working it's not working. Time has long since passed to trim any fat. Although I would say the Milan was nicer looking than the Fusion, it's the plain truth that I really wont miss the brand.

On the positive side, it does seem to me that US brand cars are starting to come along. At least in my eyes. Fusion, CTS, Regal, new Camaro and Mustang... all cars I would consider competitive at least and cars I would test drive if they fall into the class I'm shopping.

m6user · June 2010

I'm certainly not saying it's the wrong decision or that it doesn't make business sense, itt's just sad to see brands that have been around that many years go. I never owned a Mercury but I did own several Pontiacs but I can't say that I will miss the brands either.

1963 Tempest (one of the first modern American 4 cyl cars I think)
1971 LeManns
1987 Bonneville
1992 Grand Am

m6user · June 2010

Are you sure that pic is right? It doen't look like the pics I've seen of the new '11 Optima.

dash5 · June 2010

I'm not sure no, it came up in a google image search but I want it to be right!

It's from this site:

http://2011kiaoptima.com/index.php

bobad · June 2010

Good job! I was looking for a comeback for that one.

I dunno on that Optima. I haven't warmed up the panoramic sunroof. Where I live, the object is to block out as much sun as possible. Doesn't seem like it would be safe in an accident either. And those wheels are hideous. Call me old fashioned, but I like cars without a sunroof and more traditional alloys.

mickeyrom · June 2010

If you were REALLY old fashioned,you would have steel wheels with Caddy hub caps.Have I confused you?

bobad · June 2010

If you were REALLY old fashioned,you would have steel wheels with Caddy hub caps.Have I confused you?

I haven't owned a car with hub caps in 25 years. I can barely remember them. You can't confuse me, I'm already confused.

No, really, those Optima wheels are not my cup of tea,

backy · June 2010

Ditto. But what we see on "show" cars isn't always what we get... thankfully.

dash5 · June 2010

Here is a youtube showing the sunroof, looks like you can close it just like any other so sun wouldnt be a problem. As for safety, obviously you can just get the ejector seat option with parachute and you'd be quite secure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqzctqK5Arg

Here's another vid showing the interior, I like how everything comes to life when you start it up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OQ-0YYjLr8

dash5 · June 2010

I had a 2004 Infiniti G35 coupe a couple of years back. Stats on that car as per Edmunds are:

2004 Infiniti G35: 2dr Coupe w/Leather, Automatic
Curb Weight: 3422 lbs. - Horsepower: 280 hp - Torque: 270 ft-lbs. Max Torque: 4800 rpm 16 mpg / 23 mpg

A Sonata Limited has a curb weight of 3199 lbs. The Turbo engine is supposed to deliver: "274 hp at 6000 rpm. Torque stands at an equally impressive 269 lb-ft, delivered between 1800 and 4500 rpm." as per this article:

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/10q1/2011_hyundai_sonata_2.0t_turbo-auto_sh- ows

Is it fair to say these two cars would feel similar in terms of power and acceleration?

thegraduate · June 2010

Is it fair to say these two cars would feel similar in terms of power and acceleration?

I'd guess they'll both run a 0-60 in the mid-to-high 5 second range, or the short answer... yes.

jeffyscott · June 2010

I'd assume the turbo is going to have much more low end torque and that will make a difference in the feel at lower rpms?

m6user · June 2010

If you had very similar gearing they should feel similar in a straight line comparison but I don't think that will be the case.

dash5 · June 2010

Not sure what you mean by gearing, I'm guessing gear ratio which I'm pretty ignorant of. Still I was surprised to see the power, torque and weight were similar for these two cars and presumably the Optima turbo as well. Of course handling will also be different but on the plus side I'd get tremendously better FE and not have to fill it with premium to boot. If it's even similar in power and torque I'll be very impressed indeed.

m6user · June 2010

I know what you mean about the trade-off for better mpg and no premium as I have an Infiniti SUV. I love it but really would love to have better mpg. Will probably trade it within the next year to a midsize car. Yeah, I meant the transmission and differential gearing. They can be geared for speed or low rpm cruising and I assume the Sonata and Optima will be geared toward the latter on the most part while the G was just the opposite, hence the huge mpg differences. There are other things at play too that add up to the mpg difference but I think gearing is probably the biggest player.

stephen987 · June 2010

Just imagine that rear blind spot!

mz6greyghost · June 2010

Definitely the better looking of the twins IMO...

I think we've found a replacement for the Aura listed on the right!

jayrider · June 2010

Speaking of blind spots, has anyone had one of those add on panoramic rear view mirrors?

fushigi · June 2010

Photos too wide .. hiding reply button.

You're asking to be talked down so I'm going to criticize based on what I see in the photos plus the photos at http://www.thecarconnection.com/photos/kia_optima_2011#100309752 I'm sure there's plenty to praise but that's not what you asked for.

The outside of the car is quite attractive, but as noted rear visibility is a question with that design. As would be rear seat headroom & easy of entry.

What purpose is served by the black roof? If it's just tinted glass I'd pass; even around Chicago car interiors heat up plenty in summer. I couldn't imagine the oven effect further south. (I know tinted windows reduce the heat but that's just it .. they reduce it; they don't stop it)

The trunk opening looks tall but not deep. Fine for groceries but may be awkward for other items.

Those are my only real negatives on the exterior. My main gripes would be with the interior.

To me, the lower spokes on the steering wheel look out of place. A single 3rd spoke or just using panels mounted around the center of the steering wheel would look better. And while I don't think I could stand the glossy top of the steering wheel in the first interior photo, the apparently leather-wrapped wheel in the remaining pics is fine.

The dash vents are awfully large as is the trip computer between the gauges. I like that place for the TC but see no reason for it to take up so much space in the panel. I find it lacking aesthetically and from a usability standpoint I wonder how easy it will be to direct cold air from the vents in a way that won't freeze my hands (the guy driving in the bottom pic does not have his hands where you're supposed to).

The nav screen isn't sufficiently shielded from sunlight. The second pic from the bottom shows the screen washed out & unreadable. It could use another inch or two in size as well. The buttons below it are very uniform in size so operating by touch while driving will be challenging.

There looks to be virtually no storage in the center console forward of the shifter.

Oh, and yuck, no floor mats. :P

thegraduate · June 2010

The interior shots are a mixed-bag for me. The flow isn't good, but the overall ergonomics appear good.

m6user · June 2010

The nav screen isn't sufficiently shielded from sunlight. The second pic from the bottom shows the screen washed out & unreadable

I think that is just from where the picture is being taken from. From the driver's seat I don't think you would have a big problem with glare. The size also doesn't appear to be out of line with other cars I've seen. There are some bigger but there are also some a lot smaller....Mazda NAV anyone? :confuse:

backy · June 2010

Someone please crop the photos!

I like the exterior (now THOSE are sharp wheels), but there's something about the interior that triggered the word "cheap!" in my mind. Maybe it's the unending swaths of black plastic. Maybe it looks richer in person. But for now I prefer the looks of the Sonata's interior (and Mazda6 and Legacy, for that matter).

dash5 · June 2010

Sorry the pics are too wide I cant seem to edit it now. If a moderator can delete them I will just post the links:

Optima Interior 1

Optima Interior 2

Optima exterior

shabadoo25 · June 2010

I don't like the grill (similar to what I see in the Sonata hybrid) and the red lighting accents on the inside are a dealbreaker.

Kirstie_H · June 2010

Deleted - I face the same issues you do with large photo posts. Can't see the delete function unless I take extra-special measures!

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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