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  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    What I do not understand is how the Sonata is all of a sudden predicted to be worth more

    Neither do I but ALG has been pretty much the bible for auto leasing companies for over 40 years. Maybe you should call them up and tell them they don't know what they're doing. Big companies have been putting their money (versus an anonymous comment on an auto forum) on the line for a long time based on ALG's estimates so they must be doing something right.

    Like I said, I don't know leasing that well but most leasing and finanace companies put their faith in their expertise so I have to defer until they are proven to be wrong. It's nice to have the luxury of waiting to see what the actual used car values will be---like you said, but they are in the business of making those future value estimates and have to come up with the numbers now.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    If one car is normally discounted and rebated more than the other, then any comparison of the percent residual based on MSRP would be distorted by this.

    Interesting point. About rebates, they tend to destroy resale value, like rental fleet cars, and Hyundai is known for having fairly large rebates and a good amount of cars put into rental service.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Seen many rebates or huge discounts on the 2011 Sonatas? That may be why ALG has forecasted a higher residual on that particular car. I think you have to look at each individual car to set a residual and not just what a brand has done in the past. They also do a lot of research as to how much fleet and discounting might be done in the future. Again. looking into the future....not relying solely on history.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    It's 2011, and there are still 2010's on dealer lots, that is why there are no rebates yet, plus they are selling well.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I think the reason there are no rebates is that they are selling them about as fast as they can make em and nobody wants the 2010 after seeing the 2011. I personally am not that big a fan of the Sonata styling but it is still a lot more modern and sharp than the previous version. The 2011s have been out for sale what...7 months or so and are still pretty hot items. I think the new Optima will slow down the Sonata sales to some degree and then, like you say, the rebates will come.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    "About rebates, they tend to destroy resale value..."

    Not for those who get the rebate and discount price. Typically these would not be the early buyers of any new model.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,299
    I just thought the higher line models would have a lower residual %, due the the high depreciation features over a more base model.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    edited September 2010
    My 2005 Sonata GLS SV withe 33,500 miles has the following estimated TRADE-IN values: N.A.D.A $6,000, KBB $5,700* and Edmunds $5,646.

    Yes, low mileage helps alot, but those figures after 5.5 year aren't bad for a car I paid $16,700 for + TTL.

    * KBB doesn't recognize the Special Value edition of the GLS, which was only available in the 2005 MY. The SV was essentially the LX (now called "limited") but without leather seats or power driver seat. It has the auto climate control, homelink mirror, power antennea, special wheels and whatever else the LX upgrade included.

    I'd say this car has held its value well, not that I'm thinking about trading it.

    MSRP was about $19,500 plus TTL..
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2010
    There's less than 500 new 2010 Sonatas in the country, and none within 250 miles of me. So they are not a factor in the no-rebate situation on 2011s. As was noted, there's no rebates because the car is selling just fine without them. 21.4k sales in August, for example. And there are very few of those cars in rental fleets. I have yet to see one... and I've been looking for them because it's a good way to get seat time in a car.
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    edited September 2010
    Exactly! I was about to say something similar. My local dealer got a "glut" of 2010's in (at least 18 or 20) near or soon after the release of the 2011's and through decent pricing they disappeared very quickly. In fact a co-worker (a Ford man having driven Sables for years) suprised me by showing up at work in a new 2010 Sonata GLS 4 cylinder that was fairly well loaded/w sunroof etc. back in early May purchased from this group. These 20 cars are LONG gone and I doubt, as you say many/any 2010's are still around on lots.
  • huddlerhuddler Member Posts: 6
    I am getting a new company car and must decide between the following 3 vehicles:
    1. 2011 Jetta Sportswagen S
    2. 2011 Ford Fusion SE
    3. 2011 Nissan Altima 2.5S

    I will keep the vehicle for 3 years or around 75K miles. Which would you choose between these 3 cars? Gas mileage isnt a concern. I do have a wife and 2 kids who will be taking a few trips a year in it with me as well as riding around town in it. Thanks for any input.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If you can get Sync on the Fusion then that would be an advantage. If you have to pay for your own repairs then the Fusion should be slightly more reliable than the other two.

    Otherwise it really comes down to personal preference. Go drive all 3 and see which one you like the best.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    1. 2011 Jetta Sportswagen S

    The last one I'd pick if I were in your position. The new model is nice, but VW reliability has been at or near the bottom in surveys for well over the last decade or so, and with good reason. I had experiences with two different VWs that have convinced me never to trust them again. Even if you're still in warranty, the time without a car or with a loaner adds up quickly, and if you have to pay for a repair, you'll need a third mortgage.

    3. 2011 Nissan Altima 2.5S

    I purchased one as my wife's DD in '07, and with over 60K miles on it, it's been very good. Despite a rash of recalls, and the now-famous Nissan brakes (the pads don't last past 20K miles, and rotors warp EASILY), the car has been very solid, reliable, and actually fun to drive. The 4-cylinder has a lot of power to it, and passing is a breeze, all while getting over 30 MPG over the life of the car. I'd buy this if you're looking at the 4-cylinder version of the...

    2. 2011 Ford Fusion SE

    Ford has really stepped up their game with the Fusion, and the V6 Sport was on my short list for me this past spring (I ended up with a Mazda 6 S GT). Great styling, aggressive without being too polarizing. Reliability has been very good since the original Fusion was introduced, and the interior is very good in terms of fit-and-finish and quality. I'm partial to the V6 (either the 3.0L or the Sport's 3.5L) simply because it's more flexible, especially on the highway, and the 4-cylinder can get a little buzzy and feel unrefined sometimes, a problem I don't notice with the Altima's 2.5.

    4-cylinder: Altima
    V6: Fusion

    Again, all MHO. I hope this helps... :)
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
    2011 Fusion SE no question, among those 3 choices. Fusion is very highly rated and a very nice looking car inside and out.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The current version of the Jetta has had quite high reliability ratings, actually. CR rates the Jetta as "better than average" reliability, same rating as the 4cyl Altima and better than the V6 Altima (rated "average").

    The 2011 Jetta is a new (and cheapened) model, but the wagon is continuing with the former design.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    And there are very few of those cars in rental fleets

    Not true. Hyundai leads all import manufacturers with 16% of US sales going into rental fleet. There are a lot of Sonata's in rental service, especially with Avis.
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
    edited September 2010
    Another first look from Kelly Blue Book:

    http://www.kbb.com/car-news/all-the-latest/2011-kia-optima-__-first-drive

    "Look out, Honda Accord; the 2011 Kia Optima is on its way, and after being among the first to drive it we can attest, it means business."

    "Against formidable competition -- and the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Nissan Altima, Chevrolet Malibu and Ford Fusion are certainly formidable competition -- the Optima shines."

    image

    image
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How many 2011 Sonatas have been sold to fleets? That is the question here.

    Also, percentages should not be confused with numbers. 16% of 600,000 is 96,000. (And are those Accents, Elantras, Santa Fes, Sonatas, ...?) But 9% of 2 million is 180,000--nearly twice the number of vehicles Hyundai puts into fleets. So there's a lot more Toyotas in fleets than Hyundais.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I don't know? I think the Sonata carries it off better than the Kia, but I'd have to see it in person. The back end of that Kia looks a bit off to me.
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
    That's as compared to the big three who have upwards of 35% of sales to fleets.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Yes, but what he said is still true(if the percentage is correct) that of imports Hyundai is the highest percentage wise. Even if the numbers aren't as high it's interesting that Hyundai has a bigger percentage to rental than say Toyota or Nissan.

    Aviboy, does that percentage include Kias since Hyundai is the parent? I saw quite a few Kias at my last rental car experience.

    I think with the advent of the Sonata and Hyundais ability to move them to consumers that percentage may drop shortly.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    There is also a big difference between selling to rental fleets at huge discounts and selling nicely equipped models to businesses at decent prices. The first doesn't make much money and kills resale values. The second makes money and doesn't afffect resale values. A lot of Fusions are sold for gov't use and most F150 fleet sales are to business who keep them a long time.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited September 2010
    Nissan's percentage of sales to fleets is 15, Hyundai's 16--not a really big difference. The Hyundais I see a lot of in rental fleets are Elantras and Accents. I see tons of Yarii, Corollas, Camrys, Sentras, and Altimas. I wonder if those Hyundai numbers do include Kia, since Kia isn't mentioned in the articles on fleet sales. I do see Rios, Fortes, and Optimas in fleets. I wonder if that will change much when the new Optima debuts. I expect it will be much more popular than the current model.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Selling to rental fleets isn't entirely bad. It's one way to introduce your product to prospective customers whom you might not otherwise reach.

    I used to harbor a prejudice against Hyundai. Then, a couple of years ago, my wife & I found ourselves driving a rented Sonata during a 10-day vacation in California wine country.

    I soon realized that the Sonata was every bit as competent as a Camry we had rented a few months earlier. As a result, I've recommended to my mother-in-law that she replace her 10-year-old Camry with a Sonata.
  • metro3metro3 Member Posts: 6
    I am considering the "11 Accord or Avalon fully loaded. Major consideration is quiet interior. Prefer road handlying, fit and finish of Honda. Avalon has larger rear seat and smooth ride. Considering Toyota's off and on issue in the news would it be a mistake selecting the Avalon? What are pro and cons of the two makes. Currently own a 2008 EX-L. Want a new vehicle with V6 and all the toys but the road noise in my current Accord is intolerable. Have tried several sets of high quality tires with little impact on reducing noise. Many road noise related problems today are a result of the grooved road surfaces. Any recommendations on this decision?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Aviboy, does that percentage include Kias since Hyundai is the parent? I saw quite a few Kias at my last rental car experience

    I don't think it does.

    As mentioned before, Toyota probably has more volume in rental fleet, but Toyota also destroys Hyundai is total units sold. It's all relative.

    As far as the "Big 3" go, it appears that Chrysler depends of rental sales for survival. Jeep and Dodge (Ram) are the really the only brands that have retail customers.

    GM does put a good amount into rental fleet, however, Ford's fleet sales are mostly corporate fleet, not rental fleet.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    How many 2011 Sonatas have been sold to fleets? That is the question here.

    I've been looking for that answer, but, I can't find it. I know that Mazda sends me actual retail vs fleet sales each month. I bet a Hyundai employee can find it.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    That's what helped change my opinion of the Sonata as well. I had one rented for a trip from Minneapolis up to the North Shore area - 4 hour drive, lots of windy roads north of Duluth. It was a great car with some very nice features. Prior to having rented it, I would've been likely to recommend against it. That was about 4 years ago, so the improved reliability has helped upgrade my opinion.

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  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    The 2006 Sonata changed the landscape.In no way is the Sonata inferior to the Accord or Camry.It is slightly superior IMO to the Optima,but that is only in ride quality.The Optima has a stiffer suspension and you can tell that going over bumps.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    There are 2 ways to use rental fleet sales. One is to overbuild stripper models then dump the extra vehicles into rental fleets at huge discounts. This is what Ford used to do (witness the old Taurus that was probably 80% fleet before it went to a fleet only vehicle the last year). This hurts profits up front and resale down the road due to a glut of cheap used high mileage vehicles.

    The other way is to sell nicely equipped models to rental fleets at regular fleet prices. This allows rental customers to experience the vehicles while maintaining profits and not affecting resale values. That's what Ford (and some others) are doing now.

    Commercial fleet sales are great provided you're not discounting too much up front. Commercial fleets typically keep the vehicles a long time just like a consumer would.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    If you've compared the Avalon with the LaCrosse and Taurus, and you like it best - buy it. Don't believe the UAW inspired conspiracies and bashing, Toyota builds a good car and there are incredibly good deals right now. Honda and Acura tend to be noisier which can conflict with large car driving experience and preference.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I think you answered your own question. It seems that road noise is one of your very top priorities so the Avalon would have the Accord beat handily in that respect.

    However, I would only suggest one thing. The Camry. It is almost as quiet(maybe as quiet) as the Avalon and also has a very smooth ride, has a rear folding rear seat for hauling big items(Avalon doesn't) and uses the same exact V6 and auto transmission. Yes, the back seat in the Avalon is bigger but the Camry's is not undersized by any means. You would save about 4k with the Camry. I believe there are a couple of bells/whistles you can get on the Avalon that aren't offered on the Camry but you could do a comparison and see if those really make big difference to you. This comment is assuming that you've looked at other cars in the category you're looking at and don't like them. Good luck.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    The Fusion is better than either one of those two. It is quiet, handles far better than both, and is less expensive than the Avalon. I owned a 2009 Camry hybrid, it was noisy, and whiny. It was also not as well made as the Fusion I have now, the material quality was average, it had wind noise, and after 32k, the seat material was starting to show signs of wear, and the car was less than a year old.

    The Fusion sport is quiet on the highway, comfortable, and the materials are above average. I have not one single complaint after nearly a year of owning it, and 21K miles. Only service it has was due to me having too much fun with the car, and warping a front rotor from high speed stops, aside from the two oil changes and that, it has not been on a rack.

    What is the difference between a Lincoln MKZ and a Fusion Sport? About 10K and a homelink on the visor, aside from cosmetics, they are virtually the same car.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    What is the difference between a Lincoln MKZ and a Fusion Sport? About 10K and a homelink on the visor, aside from cosmetics, they are virtually the same car.

    Exaggerate much?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Yeah, and a Lexus ES350 is virtually the same as a Camry. Oh, wait, you can get Homelink on both of those so maybe they are the same.

    Dream on. You really need to work for Ford and sell Fusions....I don't know, maybe you already do. Nothing against Fusions but Geeesh!
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Saw a 2011 Accord on a test drive today. The rear tail lights have no continuity what so ever. It looks horrible. I hope Honda has something big planned for this car for the next gen, because this one just got uglier.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    edited September 2010
    Here's what Healey had to say over on USA Today...

    The benchmarks Accord set have been passed. The latest Accord remains a good car, for the most part, but if you envision it as the ruler of family sedans, either you're operating on old information or you're overly biased in favor of Honda.

    •Overall: Roomy, agile, dated.

    2011 Accord review
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    That's been the worst view of the Accord since the '88 redo....the rear end. Don't tell me they made it worse.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    If your primary criteria is a quiet/comfortable interior then you'll definitely want the Avalon if only choosing between the Accord and Avalon. The Avalon is whisper silent, seriously, you can't barely hear a thing in that vehicle. Accord does have some issues with road/wind noise depending on model.
  • zekeman1zekeman1 Member Posts: 422
    Honda/Acura has consistently been noisier than Toyota/Lexus - I was an Avalon owner for several years and Lexus for about 8 years - absolutely silent in comparison. Quality was substantially better - hands down, they were a better car in my opinion. Downside, they were not fun to drive. If you want real quality and fun to drive, go German - BMW, Audi. Now those are fun + extreme quality.
    Z
  • huddlerhuddler Member Posts: 6
    I appreciate the 3 or 4 replies that I received to my post. Thanks guys! I plan to test drive all 3 vehicles once they get some 2011 models in stock. Not sure when I can expect that to happen but I assume within the next month or so.

    I am a little curious about this comment regarding the 2011 Jetta being "cheapened". What does that mean exactly? Thanks in advance.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Note that the "cheapened" comment did not apply to the 2011 sportwagen. The 2011 wagon and sedan will now be completely different models as is the 2011 Golf.

    You should find plenty of info by searching for "2011 Jetta", here is one review from our hosts here at edmunds:

    http://www.edmunds.com/volkswagen/jetta/2011/testdrive.html
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    I test drove the MKZ, I own the sport, other then a slightly quieter ride, they handled the same and had the same get up and go. The seat comfort in the MKZ is slightly better than the Sport, but so is the seat comfort in the SEL, The SEL and MKZ have the same seat design, but MKZ has higher quality leather. The Sport seats are different than all the other models in the Fusion/Milan/MKZ. The all had the same features, Sync, Nav, etc. the MKZ has the THX sound system, while the Fusion has the Sony, and from what others have said in other forums, the Sony sounds better than the THX. Under the hood, the MKZ and Sport use the same engine/drive train, with the Sport having a slightly better tuned suspension for handling. So, other than cosmetic changes, no, not exaggerating.

    Now if I were to be buying a used car, I would look for a 2009 and up MKZ, more for the comfort of the seats than anything else, the one thing about the Sport is the seat cushion is a bit short for my thigh so the stitching presses against a nerve if I sit a certain way, but the seat back is more supportive, so its a draw.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Also a good review on the 2011 Jetta in October's C/D. They go into detail on how the 2011 Jetta is different than the current model, e.g. beam rear suspension, starter engine the ancient 115 hp 2.0L vs. the 2.5 I5, cheaper interior bits, no power seat. I think they said it is returning to hydraulic steering though. And much roomier inside--such that it probably is now in the EPA mid-sized class along with compacts like the Elantra and Sentra.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    But the difference isn't $10K - it's closer to $7K equally equipped. And Lincoln offers more sound deadening, better materials, cooled seats, etc. I'm NOT saying the MKZ is worth the extra money. I bought an Edge instead of a MKX even though in the past we've preferred Lincolns. But to say that it's a $10K difference for just a homelink opener is exaggerating a bit.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I agree that Lexus has a higher build quality then Acura does. I have not found much difference between a Honda and an Acura. They essentially feel the same. Why would I pay premium money for a jazzed up Honda? Again, this is my opinion. I do think Hondas are built better then Toyota's, especially when it comes to interiors.

    I would not necessarly say Audi's have extreme quality. Their interior's tend to wear away quite quickly and are a nightmare to fix when they do break, as are BMW's. In regards to driving experience, BMW's are fantastic. Unfortunately, I do not make enough money to justify owning one because of their initial price and cost of repairs. Being in the car business, I have come to loath anything that comes from Germany. I have delt several used late model German cars that are nothing but headaches for me and my customers. Plus, the RO's on them are astronomical once they are out of warranty.
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
    So as I wait and wait for the new Kia Optima to be available for a test drive, I figured I'd try and strike up a conversation. In a recent article by Kelly Blue Book, they commented on what the midsized sedan segment looks for in their cars and I'd like to hear what people think:

    http://www.kbb.com/car-news/all-the-latest/2011-kia-optima-__-first-drive

    "Hitting the right notes with the mid-sized-sedan buyer is also evident in the way the Optima rides and handles. Contrary to what the auto enthusiast press would have you believe, the mid-size sedan driver is more concerned about quiet and a comfortable ride than about crisp handling, and we discovered that Kia engineers tuned the Optima's suspension with that bias in mind. The Optima's suspension is reasonably sophisticated with Macpherson struts in the front and a multi-link rear, but as a drive on the course at Road Atlanta proved, it is not a setup designed for ultimate cornering at the expense of ride, and that's as it should be. "

    Of course, everyone wants both, but reality being what it is you have trade offs. To one degree or another. Finding that balance is very important.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The part in bold is enough to make me fairly certain I'd not want one...I do recognize that the majority of buyers don't care about handling, though.

    This is a definite improvement in the wheels:
    image
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited September 2010
    I do recognize that the majority of buyers don't care about handling, though.

    I think that's a little bit of an overstatement. Of course they care about handling. They just don't like it the same as you or I might. I have never met anybody that says "I don't care at all about handling". In fact, they most often say "I like how it handles". Even a Camry buyer will probably say one of the reasons they bought their car was because of "the way it handles". It all boils down to one's personal definition of what good handling means to them. Some people can't stand the way my Mazda6 rides/handles but I like it.

    Some people(not you) on here like to denigrate others that don't want sports car type handling in their vehicle. I say it's your money, get what you like.

    IMO most of these denigrators think they are born Indy drivers that have just never been discovered. ;)

    As far as the Optima goes, I'll wait and see just what they mean by a test drive myself. I agree on the wheels...they look good in that picture.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    ". In fact, they most often say "I like how it handles". Even a Camry buyer will probably say one of the reasons they bought their car was because of "the way it handles"

    When a customer says " I like the way it handles" it is not necessarily a reference to how it corners. Maybe they like how it "handles" pot holes or bumpy roads. Maybe they like how it "handles" the road and offers a cushy ride. The phrase "how it handles" is totally subjective.
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