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That said, if you consider the Regal to be mid-size in terms of seating and the interior, then the Verano should be a great family sedan. Simply because it's essentially the same drive-train and suspension minus 400 lbs of dead weight. Oh, and 5K in price, since the turbo isn't required to move that extra weight around. That helps, too.
Note - the new CTS is 98 cubic ft for reference.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
Concerning the Cruze
NOTE : The EPA database is off. It says 94+16. Which is still 110 and should be mid-size. Their site says quite plainly:
Compact 100 to 109
Mid-Size 110 to 119
Actual data directly from GM:
94.6 Cubic Ft. (interior)
15.4 Cubic Ft. (trunk)
(link)
http://media.gm.com/content/media/us/en/news/news_detail.brand_gm.html/content/P- - - ages/news/us/en/2010/Jun/0603_cruzepricing
Officially it is exactly 110.0 according to GM. This couldn't have been a mistake. They hit the mid-size category by *exactly* what they needed. My guess is that GM is trying to market it as a compact car, yet that's blatantly unfair to the competition. Of course it has a larger interior. And handles better than most actual compacts. It's a size larger.
The EPA simply has it wrongly classified as compact. This error is going to cost a lot of paperwork to correct, I suspect, since all of the online databases, window stickers, and so on are all wrong(as is GM's marketing). So we might not see it for changed for the Cruze. But we should at least make sure the Verano is right.
As an example the difference between the diameter of 16" and 19" tires is 3/16=18.7%. The circumference (2.pi.d) as increased by the same percentage. Would the speedometer be off by that amount?
16" wheels - 205/65-16 tires
17" wheels - 215/55-17 tires
18" wheels - 235/45-18 tires
It also allows an owner with 18" wheels to downsize their winter wheels/tires to 17" or 16", as long as the sidewall makes up for the lower size.
And no, there doesn't need to be any adjustment to the speedometer, odometer, or any electronics.
The Prius made it to midsize category, yet it is barely wide enough to fit 2 car seats in. The bugger has a lot of leg room, isnt very wide, but has a lot of trunk space, so bang, midsize!
That said, the Cruze and Verano take the other extreme. They take a nearly mid size interior and add a small trunk to it. 14-15 cubic ft is quite tiny, in fact. But they rightly figured that the number of uses for a trunk in a typical sedan is quite limited. Maybe fit a couple of suitcases in it every so often.
Pretty common in this class, however. For example, the trunks of some of the best-selling mid-sized sedans such as Accord, Camry, and Malibu, and others such as the Passat and Legacy, are all in the 14-15 cubic foot range. The Altima's is just over 15 cubic feet. So 14-15 cubic feet on a compact car is pretty darn good, IMO.
Edmunds has it classified correctly, as do a couple of other automotive sites.
I know we have had this discussion on "what is a mid-sized sedan" here before (maybe multiple times), and we agreed back then that "mid-sized" in this context was not interior volume but overall size of the car. Otherwise, since the EPA considers the Versa mid-sized, that would be in this discussion also, even though it's two feet shorter than the typical mid-sized car.
Also, if we go strictly by EPA volume, we need to kick the Accord (w/o moonroof) and Sonata outta here, since they are in the EPA large-car class by interior volume. Which doesn't make much sense, does it?
I think we'll be seeing huge discounts on the optima in the not to distant future.
When I finished college and was looking for my next car, I went back to Mitsubishi to get the Eclipse GSX I always wanted, only to find out they dropped the AWD turbo turned it into FWD wanna-be for another segment of the population.
I did have a glimmer of hope for them when they brought over the Lancer EVO but then they made it so hard to get a configuration I found desirable I gave up and went to Subaru. I wish them the best of luck.
****
Given how they have grown over the last few changes, I'd say, yes, my initial response to seeing the most recent Accord was, and I quote "Wow that's a large car." It's technically mid-sized, but just barely.
What's really happened is that everything grew by just enough over the last decade to no shift most cars up an entire size class. There are actually very few actual compact cars left for sale in the U.S. Hence why the thread should be "small cars" instead of any EPA derived category.
Today's mid-sized car is bigger than the mid-sized cars of several years ago. That's just the way things are.
All cars are global these days. There's not even a big correlation between a US vs. foreign nameplate and the percentage of domestic content. Hyundai is doing quite well employing US citizens, as are most foreign nameplates. The US makes MORE cars now than in many of the years past -- the difference is that a much smaller proportion of those cars is one of the Big 3 nameplates.
At more than a foot shorter than mid-sized sedans like the Accord and Mazda6, IMO it's hard to consider the Cruze a mid-sized sedan even if it does weigh over 3000 pounds and even if its interior volume just barely squeaks over the EPA classification bar for mid-sized cars (with the bar wobbling).
EPA goes by interior volume, IIHS goes by weight, most car sites like Edmunds go by (I believe) overall external size.
I remember a discussion some time back about the Taurus. Some people were trying to say it was a midsized car. That was ridiculous especially when Ford plainly had on their website that it was a full sized sedan. I don't think many rational people would disagree with Ford's description.
To me, the size indicates how the car will fit in a garage, parking spaces, etc.
Didn't the manufacturers used to talk about "mid-sized cars with the room of a full size car?" I think that would make more sense to more people.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byclass.htm
If the EPA is going to enforce such rules, they need to at least do it consistently.
Apparently it isn't hogwash...
I have been reading even more cases regarding the point i was trying to make before in post 16086, 16090, 16094, 16112. Here is the link to the comments that have just been posted the last couple days. They are experiencing the exact scenario I described. As you will see, it has already happened to one person while waiting to make a left on a yellow (the very example I first posted about, btw). And is causing very real traffic safety issues. Your 99% comment is not holding water as u will see.
viper14, "Hyundai Santa Fe Transmission Problems" #342, 22 Jan 2011 9:41 am
see posts 342, 345, 346 There are likely some prior to that and since maybe also.
I know there were quite a few posters here who were not able to comprehend this possibly being an issue. (you know who are) I hope they will see that it is in fact a very real issue.
The above link is with only one model of car. There are many others to choose from if you choose to spend the time to read them.
Not sure what any of you could possibly refute, but I have no doubt you will try. I recommend replying to this either here:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ef6716a/6222
or here:
http://blogs.edmunds.com/karl/2010/04/face-off-traditional-manual-transmission-v- s-manually-shiftable-automatic.html But that is a blog and i would prefer a forum.
unless there is an even more appropriate forum. I might warn you though, the auto tranny lovers and defenders might find either of those forums, a little out of your comfort zone.
update - I tried to create a forum called "stick vs auto" but either I am not allowed to, my browser does not support that ability on the site. I found a blog, but I think a forum format is where I would prefer to put my comments defending the manual tranny. If a host would be so kind as to create a "stick vs auto" in a forum and move the relevant posts from here to there, and post the link, it would be appreciated. To save you time, if you want all the relevant post numbers, just ask me and I'll find them for you.
How about this, would you rather have a car that fits 2 car seats, with room in the middle for a teenager, for the infrequent trips where everyone is along for the ride, or would you rather have a minivan/SUV as your daily driver, so you have room for the TA? Me, I would rather have to room in a car than have to have a mini BLEH van, or SuV. There really is nothing wrong with making a car a bit wider, without making it longer or larger.
But as we have tried to say... this is a mid-sized sedan discussion. Not a discussion about porky compacts that have borderline mid-sized interior volumes.
think of it like a rental car company. They consider a sentra to be full sized these days I think.
The model name has more to do with categorizing models anyway. Although in my rating system, the Accord is now full size.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Edmunds goes by EPA categories/size limits and double-check against the actual interior volume. So they correctly classify the Civic as Compact and the Cruze as mid-size. It's the tiniest mid-size car since probably a Volvo 940, but so be it. (it only got in due to its silly square shape adding JUST enough headroom)
If you compare the car to the Regal, it's clear what happened. They shrunk the front and rear ends. The Verano will be a few inches longer (all styling), so it might look a bit more passable as mid-size. I bet it's classified as Mid-size by Buick
Manuals are not perfect either - you can miss a shift, bog down the engine or lose a clutch and then you're SOL.
A slight delay in an automatic isn't a safety issue for a safe driver who isn't taking risks. Period.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ef6716a/6223
because the hosts do not want this chat here in Midsize sedans 2.0
My reply there is #6224.
As a fan of manuals, my wife has always wondered why I "like to shift". I'm not sure that is really it. I don't like the rubbery feeling in the drivetrain of an automatic. I'm currently driving an automatic Acura TL and I really don't like the slight delay when I punch it. Although the car has plenty of power, there is a lag before the big acceleration begins. Now I would think that the actual times that could be the difference in an accident or not would be minuscule.
I haven't yet driven a DSG--type transmission, but if my theory is correct, I should like that transmission a lot more. Even though the shifts are automatic, there should be no torque converter rubberyness, as the transmission is in direct contact via a dry clutch.
In your order:
- 2 seconds is not a slight hesitation - this has already been voted on by the majority
- going dead may not have been discussed previously even tho it certainly could have been - it goes without saying that going dead is even worse
- miss a shift? - this is driver error!! - this is why manuals intimidate some drivers that defend autos - give me something I can work with and I will NOT shirk my responsibility behind the wheel by blaming it on something that is out of my control
- bog down? - again driver error - this is why manuals intimidate some drivers
- lose a clutch? !! a clutch never just 'goes out' without a fair amount of previous warning. - if the driver ignores the warnings, that, as a general rule, present themselves gradually enough that if u keep ignoring the signs, well what can i say?Again, driver error
- again with the 'slight' comment? - and again, someone sitting in the middle of an intersection waiting for the last oncoming cars to clear the intersection, is not taking risks!
So no, no period, IMO.
I doubt edmunds goes by EPA categories. Also edmunds has the Cruze as a compact:
http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/cruze/2011/
Edmunds also has the Accord and Sonata classified as midsize, not large as EPA does.
Adding 7 inches to the width is not "making a car a bit wider" that is a huge difference in the width of a car. In terms of rear hip room, 7 inches is about the difference between a Fiesta (49.2 inches) and full size cars like those I mentioned above.
The wide small car was tried once:
1. Kia Optima: The car has it all. Good looks, good price, great fuel economy and plenty of power all wrapped up in a solid warranty. Uncompromising value. Drawbacks here include a first year model that hasnt been tested as much as a model in it's 3rd or 4th season. Kia nameplate is a problem for some. Doesnt drive quite as sporty as it looks.
2. Hyundai Sonata. Same as the Optima only less or more attractive sheet metal depending on your tastes. It's different enough to deserve it's own slot. Less features, more luxury oriented styling and interior.
3. Ford Fusion. Terrific all around car. Very well reviewed, solid performer and well tested platform. Personally, I feel the styling is only "good".
4. Honda Accord. Yeah the styling is going in the wrong direction and the car has slipped overall, but it's still a great car imo. Comfortable, very nice interior, plenty of room and extremely reliable.
5. Suzuki Kizashi. A great car that would be even higher if it had any dealer presence in the US.
Instead, you could swap in the sporty Altima, or the cushy but big selling Camry, neither one of which I really care for.
I would consider the mazda 6 too. nice car.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
But i think my point that autos spending too long processing what is expected of it, at certain times in traffic, is quite a valid safety issue, and IMO, attempts should not be made to minimize it. Now maybe where some here (a minority fortunately) are concerned, it's a non-issue till it affects them personally in a real-world situation. Often that's what it takes to spark an imagination of awareness.
But no matter where I read about dual clutch electronically controlled trans, none of them advertise the same longevity potential as a basic manual tranny. And if the electronics screw up, they do not shift like a manual does. I might guess that there is some form of limp-home feature but I'm not sure. Even if they do, it will be more complex and limiting than a basic std tranny. And expensive once out of wty.
Adding a small addition and shared service bay would keep costs down. And more people could say that they added Suzuki to their shortlist cuz now there is a dealer that can actually service them not as far away as before (as several states even )
DSGs are basically 2 separate manual transmissions with 2 computer controlled clutches that switch the input shaft from the engine back and forth. One side has gears 1-3-5 and the other has 2-4-6. When you're in 1st gear the odd side is engaged and the even side is already in gear 2 so the 1-2 shift just engages one clutch and disengages the other. Now the odd gears are moved to gear 3 in preparation for the next shift. Other than having 2 internal clutches instead of 1 there isn't any difference from a regular manual.
5. Hyundai Sonata - A huge turn-around from the previous model, and selling well to boot. I can't see any reason why it couldn't be the best seller in this class for 2011.
4. Kia Optima - Slightly more sporty than the Sonata, slightly better-looking than the Sonata IMO, and therefore gets the higher ranking in my book.
3. Subaru Legacy - Often overlooked by just about everyone that doesn't deal with snow/sleet/slush, and that's a shame. Built well, styling is understated, without the Sonata/Optima flash, but nicely done, and the 2.5GT is a grown-up WRX.
2. Ford Fusion - As much as a splash the Korean twins have made, Ford has done their absolute best to offer a midsize sedan for all tastes. From the bread-and-butter family car (a nicely-equipped 4-cylinder), to an inexpensive sport sedan (the Sport), to the tree-hugger (the Hybrid), Ford's got it all. It doesn't hurt that the styling is nicely done, interiors are sharp, and the whole package is solid and affordable.
1. Mazda 6 - Still the "BMW" of the class IMO. Razor-sharp handling, smooth ride, powerful brakes, direct and nicely-weighed steering, and the power of the V6 is simply intoxicating, and it's smooth all the way to redline, with a healthy growl to get the point across. Interior is simple, elegant, and driver-focused, with excellent materials and fit-and-finish. Still the most fun-to-drive in this class, offers a lot of passenger space, a huge trunk, and the polarizing styling is refreshing in a class full of *yawn*. It's so good, I'm on my second one!
Also, the Mazda 6 may be a blast to drive, but there is nothing going on looks-wise there at all.
That's your opinion. I beg to differ. The Sport interior that I almost bought was nicely laid out. The leather seating and stitching was very classy, and the dash and center console was solidly built, with switchgear that didn't feel cheap.
Also, the Mazda 6 may be a blast to drive, but there is nothing going on looks-wise there at all.
Hence the reason why I said "polarizing". Love it or hate it, it was a refreshing change in a class full of vanilla when introduced in '09. The same can now be said for the Sonata and Optima IMO.