Midsize Sedans 2.0

smarty666 · March 2011

No matter what Toyota does, there are certain folks always posting complaints about them.

savetheland · March 2011

It is not only Toyota, you can add GM to this list.

And also Government was responsible for 9/11, established death panels, assassinated Kennedy and fabricated landing on the Moon.

luckyseven · March 2011

We only talk cars here. You can take all other interesting you topics to conspiracy theories boards.

Sandman6472 · March 2011

Or could it be that folks just like Toyota products compared to all others. Doesn't make them wrong & if you like a Ford product(s), that's great for you. And your opinion about the quality in either car is just that...your opinion. Just because you are not a Toyota fan doesn't make the brand a bad decision for others. We'd have no problem getting another one if the right product came out...none what so ever. The Camry I rented last year was a quiet excellent riding vehicle and this was a rental with about 6k on the clock...great car!

The Sandman :sick: :shades:

backy · March 2011

I would not make any conclusions on car selling price after looking on auto show MSRP pricing.

I wasn't.

But as long as you want to talk discounts, I can go down to a local Ford dealer and get a Fusion SE for under $18k right now. Far superior car to the Camry, IMO. Or a Malibu for about the same money--again a superior car to the Camry I think. Even the once-woeful Chrysler 200 has upped its game and has a much nicer interior than the Camry now. If Chrysler can upgrade the interiors (and more, in the case of the 200 and other cars) of ALL of its vehicles in one year, why can't Toyota make the Camry more competitive (e.g. a higher-quality interior) in the five years the current design has been on the market?

Toyota used to make the highest-quality cars in the market, inside and out. The 1992 Camry set new standards for quality in the mid-sized segment--in many ways it was comparable to a Lexus. If you compare almost any other mid-sized sedan to the Camry today, without rose-colored glasses, it's easy to see how far Toyota has slipped. The Optima is probably the best example, but there's others e.g. Mazda6, Sonata, Passat, and Legacy.

m6user · March 2011

If Chrysler can upgrade the interiors (and more, in the case of the 200 and other cars) of ALL of its vehicles in one year, why can't Toyota make the Camry more competitive (e.g. a higher-quality interior) in the five years the current design has been on the market?

That's a damn good point. I sat in several Chrysler products at the auto show and was amazed at how much their interiors have improved overnight. Maybe Fiat influence, maybe just market pressure but they were very nice on the inside. Can't say much for their exterior styling and I wouldn't buy one just yet as I think they still have a ways to go quality wise. But, if they keep moving in the right direction they should be very competitive within a couple of years. Hopefully, they will last that long.

djm2 · March 2011

Good Morning:

Chrysler designs great vehicles, but that is where the process stops. --- Their engines and transmissions have a lot of issues as they age. ----(Do a search on the 2.7 engine.) ----- The transmissions in their vans are known to fail at an early mileage. ------ Chrysler, and Chrysler dealers look for any excuse NOT to honor their extended warranties. ---- I have looked at the Chrysler 300 for many years. It is simply a beautiful vehicle, but I will not purchase one because the dealers in my area of the country are know as "bottom feeders" in the automotive market place! Their service reputation is zero! ----- Best regards. ------ Dwayne

luckyseven · March 2011

I totally agree with you here. Toyota interiors could use a lot of improvement. When current Camry generation came up for sale back in 2006 Toyota knew that they were only game in town and their real competition was only Honda Accord so they allowed themselves to cut corners. I bought my 2009 Camry back in the beginning of 2008 and even then I didn't have much choice. As far as car itself it is typical Toyota and performs the way I expected. No thrills, reliable, comfortable, easy on gas - and this is what I was looking for when I bought it. It is really nice to have such an improved competition these days and I'm glad that domestic manufacturers finally came with cars that attractive to buyers. Also we all know that current Camry is in the end of it's production life so competing cars that came up on the market in a last year or two should try to be better since every car manufacturer uses Camry as benchmark. If I'd be on the market for a new car today I'd definitely look at all the choices that present. If I could wait for some time I'd wait to see next generation Camry before buying anything else, I'm sure it will not disappoint.

gooddeal2 · March 2011

If I could wait for some time I'd wait to see next generation Camry before buying anything else, I'm sure it will not disappoint.

I doubt Toyota will improve the interior quality. I just got a chance to drive and looked at the inside of my uncle 2011 Sienna and I can say...I'm very disappointed with the quality with hard plastic on every corner. His old Sienna was a lot better inside.

IMO, the quality in the 2011 Highlander (my brother has it) is marginal as well.

luckyseven · March 2011

I also own 2008 Highlander that pretty much the same as your brother's 2011 model. I agree that interior uses too much plastic but it doesn't bother me a bit because the rest of the car is top natch. That car came out in in the spring of 2007 (that's when I got it) so interior obviously dated. I'd expect Toyota to make some interior improvements for it's mid-life redesign done for 2010 model year but they decided to improve exterior instead. I guess Toyota feels that Highlanders sell as hot cakes and good as they are. For almost 4 years I've owned a Highlander, I've almost never seen it being advertised by local dealers in the auto section of local paper. That really surprises me, you could see ads for Camry, Corolla, Rav4 but never a HL. While interior in Toyota cars definitely lacks it is not a major deciding factor. It is what it is, buyers see it, and still buy a Toyota - your brother did. Toyota may not excel in interior, exterior, or handling comparing to other cars. It excels as a whole package and this is why they so hard to beat.

BTW. I don't know why you're thinking that HL is a "marginal quality". For almost 4 years of ownership it didn't break down once and performs the way I expected. I don't want to start a conversation on HL quality here because it is not going to take us anywhere.

gooddeal2 · March 2011

I just pointed out the Sienna and HL b/c Sienna is all new for this year but Toyota even tries to cut more corners and the HL just get a mid-life refresh with nothing exciting to the interior...just the minor outside changes (which is normal).

IMO, I doubt Toyota will improve the interior quality of the new Camry. The new Camry will be more likely have the same amount of plastic as the current Camry or worst.

Oh, when I said marginal quality, I mean the plastic...nothing more.

mickeyrom · March 2011

Their only competition was the Honda Accord? Evidently you never looked at the KIA Optimas,Hyundai Sonatas,the Ford Fusions or the Nissan Altimas.
All of those that I mentioned have been excellent value cars,especially after 2006.They also look better than the Camry,inside and outside.

luckyseven · March 2011

It's only aesthetics then, not quality.

luckyseven · March 2011

evidently they were not as good back then as they are today otherwise best selling cars would be KIAs, not Toyota. It's all matter of personal preference. I did look at my options and decided on Toyota. You can buy whatever your heart tells you.

plekto · March 2011

Still, it's not rocket science to put soft, comfortable leather seats in a car like the old Park Avenue had. Nor is it such a stretch to put some soft cloth or other tactile materials on the doors and interior.

What irks me is how you get an interior that looks like it was stamped and extruded on a robotic assembly line and then screwed and glued into place. It's the same feeling you get when you look at the stuff from IKEA. Sure, at the price, it's functional and all of that, but the thing with a Camry (or several of the current Hondas) is that you'd expect that with the Yaris, but the Camry is almost 50% more expensive and has the same interior.

Adding manufactured "leather" to the seats and some fake wood trim doesn't solve anything, either. If anything, that's actually a downgrade because it often wears worse and feels less comfortable than the cloth seats did.

m6user · March 2011

Don't get a chip on your shoulder. It's just conversation. People on many forums including this one just like to bash Toyota, Camry or their particular hated brand of the month.

Paraphrasing your comments might look like "Camry interior kind of sucks, exterior is so-so but they are comfortable, dependable and economical and lots of people buy them for the pluses and ignore the minuses because of reputation". I would agree you.

However, reputation has been tarnished somewhat rightfully or wrongly. They (and Honda IMO) are resting on their reputations and not addressing the changing quality and selection in the midsize class. Same with Corolla in realtion to the compact class but that is another discussion. I just can't understand why they can't improve their interiors like Chrysler has just done. It is night and day and can't be tremendously expensive to do as I don't believe Chrysler has tons of money to waste. They felt it necessary to compete. Obviously, Toyota doesn't think that way and they seem to be satisfied with a "it's good enough" attitude.

Camry might drive a little soft but IMO it has a lot of other things going for it. If they would improve their interiors greatly and exterior a little bit I would consider it if I was in the market for a midsizer.

samm43 · March 2011

I often wonder why people have such an aversion to plastics use in a vehicle. The way I see it, these should be the criteria for plastics use. There are advantages on the exterior also, but it seems people are more concerned with interior use here for now.

The correct use of plastics:
- offers a substantial crash protection element that is very cost effective. Combined with correct windshield quality and installation, good interior dash and firewall steel and/or magnesium/aluminum dash bracing between lower A pillar areas, these all are instrumental in absorbing impact forces in a crash.
- it's relatively light compared to cost
- easy to clean and effectively clean as opposed to numerous plasticized or real chrome trim bits all over the place. Granted, some of these extraneous trim bits do give a certain presence and 3D depth, but also can become unglued or unattached and can be projectiles and impalers in a crash. Don't underestimate the importance of this. And the use of carpeting, while attractive when new will be difficult to keep clean unless they can make the portions removable and washable.
- resists stains from spilt drinks and snacks
- how well it resists static electricity compared to other choices that also has to meet these other criteria
- offers impressive crack resistance from the huge temperature changes
- doesn't create irritating reflections - everywhere from the windshield to your eyes from bits of chrome etc
- usually easy to remove and replace
- and is easily recyclable
- and a good plastic has to do all this AND have good fire-resistance in an ideal world.

Soft touch padding (on hard plastic beneath) can look and feel good and create more sound absorption, but is expensive to manufacture with the content that resists all (most) of the above, so is usually reserved for use in higher-end vehicles.

Now I did say above, correct use of plastics. I am fully aware that sometimes there is a reflection on the windshield right where you look down the road, or a premature crack etc, but this is not the fault of the plastic. These are design and execution flaws and is surprising how often it is overlooked when they design and build a car. Sometimes a plastic will be used that does not stand up the way its intended life was supposed to and this can be due to sourcing outside parts bidding on too tight of a budget etc.

I think what is more important than the amount of plastic used, is to look at previous cars and see how well they stood up over the test of time for the manufacturer that you are considering. This reflects on a vehicles overall down-the-road value both in actual and perceived value for that brand.

Sam

m6user · March 2011

I don't think the problem is with plastics per se. Everyone knows that plastics are necessary. But it's the type, look and placement of the plastics that I think bothers a lot of people. It's similar to when people say "Well, the Optima has leather interior, just like the ES350". Sorry, but there are different grades of leather and a lot of difference in feel and durability between them and how well they are sewn and placed in the vehicle. Same with plastics.

luckyseven · March 2011

Plastics in a car never bothered me and I like fabric seats over leather or leatherette. I'm not denying that I'd like to have better looking interiors in my Toyotas but what I have is acceptable. For people who wants to spice up their rides there is plenty of cheap fake wood kits and other interior enhancements on eBay. Also Camry XLE or Highlander Limited have much nicer interiors, so having boring interior on lower trims most likely part of Toyota marketing strategy. Shell out few more $$$ and get better interior.

acdii · March 2011

Lets see, the sunroof would stick, sometimes not even close. The dash had lighting along the radio cluster that couldn't be dimmed, so when driving in the fog at night the entire dash had to be turned off because the light from the middle of the dash was causing too much glare, and that is something others have noticed as well, not just an opinion to me. From day one it had wind noise on the drivers side that they couldn't correct. If I press the palm of my hand down on the middle of the seat I could feel the springs through the material, and I could feel them on my thighs too. After 13 months of driving the material on the seats were worn. The dash squeaked, and the passenger door rattled. It had sloppy handling, on a curve I can take at 60 in my F350 I had to slow to 45 in the Camry, or it felt like it would roll. Pretty bad for something that is HALF the weight of the 8000# top heavy F350.

This was not some $19k car, this was a $27,500 car! I expect chincy material for a $19k car, but not for something that MSRP's for $30K.

After putting 32,000+ miles on a Camry Hybrid, I will NOT recommend it to anyone except for some old people who drive slow to begin with. Apples to Apples the Ford Fusion Hybrid is hands down a far better car, it's reliability is tops, it gets better MPG, it has better handling, and the interior quality is superior to what the Camry has. Toyota has some serious catching up to do to get to where the Fusion and Sonata are at. Especially now that Hyundai has a Hybrid version.

luckyseven · March 2011

Every car might develop problems and it is sad to hear that yours did. I have no problems adjusting lighting in my dash why yours couldn't be adjusted? A lot of bad Camry handling reputation comes from the OEM Bridgestone tires that get worn after 25K. I got a set of Yokohama ENVigor tires and my Camry handles pretty good. As far as sits got worn on your car, I can't really comment on that since this could be your driving position or weight related, seats in both of my Toyotas are fine. There is a gazillion of Toyotas on the road and some have problems. What you listed not even problems, just annoyances. It is not like you had mechanical breakdown and got stranded on the middle of nowhere. You found your peace with Ford, so my best wishes to you. When I'll be shopping for a new car I'm not going to write any car off my list and my next car could be a Ford, or Hyundai, or whatever I'll find the best.

plekto · March 2011

The issue with plastics is that while they have their place, they are the last thing that you want to touch your body or stare at for hours at a time.(think big sheet of cheap extruded plastic dash covering)

- Plastics can add crash protection. But covering them with a bit of cloth or tactile material won't lessen that in any way whatsoever. Plastic won't protect you one iota, though, compared to metal. If you hit the dash with your head, you're just as screwed as if it was some other material.(except you won't due to the airbag)

- They are low cost. But again, interior treatments are also cheap. We're talking about pinching pennies in the worst, most visible places. Compare the interior of a VW Jetta to a Camry. When the smaller, less expensive car flat out beats up the larger more expensive one, something's just not right. Shoot, when Hyundai and Chrysler can pull off the same trick, you know it's not a fluke. There's nothing wrong with either, but they aren't exactly known for luxury or refinement.

Honda's new Insight is a particular crime in and of itself. It's downright thin and flimsy. Just reeks of 1980s era sub-compacts, though it IS pretty/hides it well. Just don't tap the doors or pretty much anything else too hard with your knuckles. The Mini feels like a limo by comparison. It's solid and feels like a little brick.

- Cleaning cloth interiors can be a bit tiring, but cleaning plastic is just as awful if it's done wrong.

- Sorry to say, but I doubt if the nicely covered dash on a CTS will "crack" any time soon. Maybe the plastic or metal under the cover will, but the top won't. It's a $100 or less option(GM's cost) that they gave us that makes the interior feel at least 10-20% better alone.

- Plastic also gets brittle as it ages and fades rapidly in sun. A 1960s Mercedes interior is typically in no worse shape than a 15 year old modern interior. The amount of plastic that you found in one was less than 5 lbs in the entire car, and was mostly limited to knobs and buttons and the like, where plastic is incredibly useful.

- Plastic out-gasses to the point where the interior of a typical new car is actually harmful to be in for the first year or so.

- Plastic is also horrible in a fire as it is toxic and nearly impossible to put out once it starts burning. Cloth actually wins here, especially if it is treated with fire-resistant chemicals. Metal, of course, doesn't really "burn" to begin with. Glass, even less so.

- Plastic is a nightmare for the environment unless it IS recycled properly. Most auto crushers/dismantlers don't bother with it. Cloth and metal, wood, and glass usually win as they are far more landfill and recycling friendly.

luckyseven · March 2011

Plastics are evil... I want a wooden car... and horses!

Sandman6472 · March 2011

Agree with your assessment of the Insight...a rush job which came to market as a joke!! Honda should be ashamed at their attempt to make a vehicle to go against the Prius that lacks a heart & soul of a true Honda. They really need to stop production, which unfortunately G-d has seen to in a horrific way, and come back to market with a better produced model. Base it on a Civic instead of a Fit and make it as competitive with the Prius as possible. Then they could have a winner on their hands, but the current model is an embarassment to all Honda lovers out there...come on Honda, you can do this!!!!
The Sandman :sick: :shades:

backy · March 2011

You said back in 2008, you didn't have much choice. So... what other cars did you look at and drive back then? IMO there were a number of good choices, including:

* Fusion and Milan: already established by then as high-quality, reliable cars.
* Sonata - refreshed in early 2008 with what might have been the nicest interior in the class at that time, with proven reliability.
* Accord - all-new for 2008 MY, and far superior to the Camry IMO.
* Altima - reliable, nice styling, good handling, economical in I4 form.
* Malibu - great stying, interior quality a notch above Camry.
* Mazda6 - In its last year of that generation, meaning GREAT deals available e.g. well-equipped 6i Sport for under $17k. A little smaller than the Camry, but great handling and high quality.
* Optima - Great value, better interior (e.g. per C/D comparo) than Camry.

So lots of good choices. Except none say "Toyota" on the trunk lid.

m6user · March 2011

For people who wants to spice up their rides there is plenty of cheap fake wood kits and other interior enhancements on eBay.

I guess you missed my point if you think that adding a cheap wood kit is what I'm talking about when I talk about quality. Leather has nothing to do with it either. There are different looks and different grades of cloth interiors. Some may look similar but one can feel the cheap ones. Thats what I'm talking about. Camry is a great car but they cheaped out on the interior and it shows. They just need to fix it.

iluvmysephia1 · March 2011

First time I've seen this pic of a possible future Toyota Camry. If they made one that looked like this I'd even consider a pathetic Camry. Nice design here.

urnews · March 2011

Definitely ugly.

subearu · March 2011

Has an Olds Aurora look to it, albeit a bit more chiseled on the sides.

-Brian

mz6greyghost · March 2011

IMO nothing new or particularly exciting about this design. The scalloped doors are ugly, and I agree about the Aurora-esque look up front (been there, done that).

Toyota should stick to Vanilla design if they want to keep their sales, because after it'll get dumbed down for production, IMO it'll still be too polarizing for this class, and sales will suffer because of it.

acdii · March 2011

Now it looks like they borrowed from the Sonata!

backy · March 2011

It's an improvement over the current Camry. But the exterior of the Camry isn't terrible, IMO. It's the interior that needs the most work. One thing I like about the rendering is the rear roofline isn't swept back ala Sonata, thus rear head room should be good. I think this design would look better with less agressive wheel openings and toned-down wheels. But that will likely happen--concept cars always have more bling than the real thing.

luckyseven · March 2011

Sonata already looks dated, wait for another year or two. Designs like that don't please eyes for long time.

iluvmysephia1 · March 2011

it's a nice design.

backy · March 2011

Dated after one year? Hardly. After ten years... maybe.

luckyseven · March 2011

backy · March 2011

You realize that's the hybrid Sonata, yes?

m6user · March 2011

nice pics. What's your point?

dash5 · March 2011

Test drove the 2011 Optima SX on Friday and loved it. If you dont want to read my whole take, the tl;dr version is: I'm buying one. Should tell you what you need to know.

Seats were comfortable, inside was quiet and the ride was smooth. Of course this is all subjective, others might say the seats are hard, inside is noisy and ride was harsh. For me, it felt like a faster, smoother version of my Dad's Honda Accord. The styling both inside and out was vastly superior to the Accord, imo. I say that as a Honda fan, I own a CR-V and my family (Dad, brother, SIL) has owned a good half dozen or more Accords over the years. I like the Honda interiors and the Optima was even better by a clear margin to me.

No left pull issue at all. Slight turbo lag but nothing bad. I agree with this review pretty much completely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ibaidizu-o

Tires are not great, they supposedly add to the road noise significantly and supposedly arent very grippy. I took a hard corner at speed to test it and it seemed fine. My expectations are set though that if they become an issue I will have to replace them with higher quality tires, perhaps even 17's but likely just good 18's.

Exterior is just stunning, not much I can say about it. No question in my mind it looks like a $40,000+ sedan. The Spicy Red is perfect, and it looks sharp in all the colors I've seen it in. Especially SX trim but all of them looked great. Throw a spoiler on the base model and it's 90% there in terms of looks.

Some room for improvement of course, it could be cleaned up a bit in front but as a whole it's fantastic.

I loved the interior. I'm not a big "dash stroker" (no pun intended) but all the materials felt solid and quality. Door closed with a nice solid feel. All the features I'd want are there, telescoping wheel, power seats and on down the line. Tried the cooled seating and that was neat. Nothing too powerful but nice to have on a hot day with leather seats certainly.

No real downsides on the interior that I can recall. If they wanted to make the seats a bit more supportive I'd be fine with it but again I found them to be completely unobjectionable. Steering wheel felt good but you could probably stand to improve the texture as that's the one surface you'll always touch. Push button start is really cool but I believe it precludes remote start which is a minor negative to me. I'd also add something to conceal your electronics when they're plugged in. Honda has the ipod connection in the center console, I believe the Optima only had theirs right under the stereo and above the shifter. So it's out in the open for people to spot if you leave them there. No biggie just a minor observation.

Another down side for me is that it's a big car compared to my little Jetta. That's no fault of the car though, just something I personally noticed that detracted from the overall perception. Felt awkward backing up out of the spot but the back up camera was there for me and helped out in that regard. A lot of it was also the "it's a new car" thing making me extra cautious.

I've contacted a nearby dealer with the Spicy Red SX and I'm looking to try to get it loaded for about 28k + ttl.

Sandman6472 · March 2011

Ditto, nice design!! Hopefully the interior will be just as nice!
The Sandman :sick: :shades:

iluvmysephia1 · March 2011

nice design.

A future Toyota Camry

brainfertilize · March 2011

Did you decide on the Optima SX after test-driving a Mazda6?

Or did you not try the 6?

dash5 · March 2011

I tried the 6, Buick Regal Turbo, Fusion Sport and Sonata. Also had access to an A4 and C300. Sat in a G25 but didnt drive it. Wanted to try the Nissan Maxima but never did.

I dont have bad things to say about any of them, Optima just had the best package for the money in my opinion.

brainfertilize · March 2011

Cool, just curious.

I didn't try the Optima SX before deciding on the 6, maybe I should have.

But 8 months later, I'm still pleased as punch with my 6.

Was the Optima SX out back in August?

mz6greyghost · March 2011

Was the Optima SX out back in August?

Nope. The Optima itself wasn't at local dealers until November, and the SX w/turbo was trickling into dealers last month.

Last August, the previous-gen Optima was available with a blistering 193 HP V6, and you missed out! :P

m6user · March 2011

Can anyone see the pictures of cars we discuss here to the right side of this page or any consumer ratings? All I see is boxes with a big N/A and the same for average consumer ratings. Seems like it's been a long time since the revamp and this just looks kind of tacky to me. If they don't plan on fixing it why not use it for ad space. Used to find it to be handy info and a quick click for consumer reviews......not so much now!

Kirstie_H · March 2011

It's broken - known error, tech team is working on it.

dash5 · March 2011

You should be pleased, I thought the 6 was a strong car with probably the best handling of all those I tested. Glad you're enjoying it!

Optima SX just started hitting the dealers this month I think.

j2j · March 2011

The Optima in SX trim is on par w/ that of the CC (if not a little better) and has better steering feel/feedback as well, altho neither are as good all-around handlers as the Mazda6 or Kizashi.

The Sonata, otoh, is based on a good chassis, and turns into corners pretty well, but pretty much everything else about the Sonata is geared for a cushier ride and easier driving experience (in particular the light steering with little feedback).

brainfertilize · March 2011

After what you said, and after doing a little quick research, I am convinced that the Kia Optima SX would not have pleased me as much as the Mazda6.

The SX might actually be a better car overall, dunno.

But it seems like the SX is better in the areas that the 6 is sufficient for me, and the 6 is better in the areas that I good enough isn't good enough, if that makes sense.

Handling is more important to me than acceleration. The SX blows the 6 out of the water for acceleration, but the 6 has plenty of acceleration already...more acceleration at the cost of the 6's handling would not be a good trade-off for me.

The SX's fuel economy is excellent: about equal the 6's overall (which fuel economy is pretty much the only disappointing aspect of the 6), and apparently significantly better highway mileage, despite having scads more power (due to the turbo)...but when purchasing, I had already moved up from a used Mazda3 to a new Mazda3 (due to used prices climbing to the point where new was worth it to get 0% financing), and then climbed again from the Mazda3 to a Mazda6 due to greater comfort and (to me) even more driving enjoyment. I would not have been willing to go another $5k to get to the SX.

So comparing the Mazda6 to a normally-aspirated 4-cyl Optima, the 6 wins hands down.

Plus, I still like the Mazda6's appearance the best of all current sports sedans...although I admit that might be as much the result of liking the car as a cause of liking the car...

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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