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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    Unexplained computer glitches blamed on brake pedals and floor mats. Yep, Toyotas never break. Go with that

    Actually, they were all perfectly 100% explained. All cases were found to be driver error and pedal misapplication, nothing more.

    No computer glitches, sorry! Besides, all computer "glitches" can be overcome with proper driver training.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • jkobty2jkobty2 Member Posts: 210
    edited August 2011
    Have you guys seen the Euro version of the 2012 Camry? I would say a nicer front and rear end, although the interior is similar.
    So why is Toyota releasing nicer looking Camry's outside of North America?
    What they are saying is a nicer Camry will take sales away from entry level lexus like the es350.
    Since Lexus barely sells any cars outside of North America, Toyota seems to provide a better looking Camry for those markets.
    Basically they are saying we are stupid.
    http://www.thetorquereport.com/2011/08/toyota_ukraine_unveils_the_eur.html
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    edited August 2011
    Basically they are saying we are stupid.

    They've been saying that for years. From charging more $$$ for gluing on a "Lexus" nameplate instead of a "Toyota" nameplate (and I won't even go into the "gold-plated" emblems/nameplates. Gimme a break! :sick: ), to basically blaming their "loyal customers" (read: source of income) for the "operator errors" leading to the unintended acceleration.

    And yet like sheep or lemmings, millions of suckers... oops, I mean "consumers", continue to buy them and their "quality" products.
  • luckysevenluckyseven Member Posts: 134
    Does anyone realize that Euro Camry will cost significantly more then US version?
  • jjpcatjjpcat Member Posts: 124
    edited August 2011
    Thanks Backy for this great info. Do you have more comments regarding steeling, body roll when turning, brake performance, and rear/side view?

    How do you compare Altima and Elantra outside FE and rear seat space? Especially in ride, noise, handling, and brake.

    Thanks again.
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    Yeb, that's a nicer Camry.
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    Actually, they were all perfectly 100% explained. All cases were found to be driver error and pedal misapplication, nothing more.

    No computer glitches, sorry! Besides, all computer "glitches" can be overcome with proper driver training.


    So, are you going to open a special school for those who want to drive Toyotas?
  • luckysevenluckyseven Member Posts: 134
    So, are you going to open a special school for those who want to drive Toyotas?

    Trying to be funny?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    I'll let the Insurance Companies decide which cars are the most dangerous on the road, they usually let you know in the form of costs for your insurance!
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    Apparently one is needed since Toyota was the only manufacturer impacted.

    Every other car I've ever heard about with UA problems has been traced to actual faults in the vehicles. Somehow only Toyota is innocent despite the numerous complaints. Just seems odd.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • luckysevenluckyseven Member Posts: 134
    edited August 2011
    What's odd? UAW- Government lead smear campaign didn't come to fruition? Are you upset that con artists like James Sikes didn't get Toyota's millions?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited August 2011
    I think all the cars are made of steel. ;)

    None of the cars I mentioned has great handling. They are all mid-sized family sedans, mostly low-trim versions with tall-section tires. All have capable handling, Jetta and Elantra probably best (maybe because they were the smallest), Sonata wasn't bad, Fusion a nick behind that. This week I got a Mazda6, and it has nice handling despite the wimpy tires.

    Braking is not something I tend to test very hard when I rent a car. They all stopped fine for normal driving. It was summer, no bad weather to speak of except a little rain.

    Jetta and Fusion probably had best rear and side views. Sentra has a good side view also. Sonata, Mazda6, Elantra all have that swoopy styling that compromise the side and rear views.

    Altima is a little quieter than the Elantra, but both ride nicely on the highway. I think the Elantra is a little more entertaining to drive, but the Altima is a good handler for a mid-sized car. Altima has more power of course. Drive 'em both, see which one you like. Since the Elantra is roomy enough for me, has better FE, and I like the styling, I'd save the money and get that over most true mid-sized cars. Except Elantras are hard to find discounts on and there are discounts on some mid-sized cars, including Altima, Fusion, and Mazda6. Also cars like Malibu and 200, but I don't like those all that much.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    So why is Toyota releasing nicer looking Camry's outside of North America?
    What they are saying is a nicer Camry will take sales away from entry level lexus like the es350.
    Since Lexus barely sells any cars outside of North America, Toyota seems to provide a better looking Camry for those markets.
    Basically they are saying we are stupid.


    You need to get out a bit more. Like to Europe. They drive much smaller cars there. Smaller cars have traditionally not sold nearly as well in North America. Soccer moms want hulking SUVs to drive to the market. A VW Jetta (the older model) is a midsized car there. So it makes sense that the midsized sedan is smaller there. Just like the Accord is smaller there, too. And Ford sells the tiny Ka, a car not even sold here.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited September 2011
    out of Dallas-Fort Worth last weekend. That is one nice, quiet ride the Fusion gives. I barely heard the engine whine, I didn't even look to see if I had a 4 or 6 cyl. The acceleration was decent, car "manners" on the freeways leading away from Dallas-Ft.Worth and then west on I-20 were very good. Handling was good, nothing more, but competent and fuel economy was good. I left in the night from the airport and only discovered the color of the car the next morning, what I thought was black was really a dark blue-torqouise color that looked pretty good. Radio was competent, I was treated to a late Saturday night replay of a 2002 Coast-To-Coast AM with Art Bell so I was a satisfied camper in that respect.

    I give the Fusion a 95 out of 100 for that "test-drive" rental. I rented a '09 Toyota Camry in June of '09 out of Sea-Tac and I can only give that car about a 80. Competent but Toyota boring in looks and driving manners both. Might work for some but the Fusion fits me much better. Love to drive a '11 Kia Optima one of these days and compare it to the Fusion for road manners and handling.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited September 2011
    C/D just did a comparo on the new Passat V6 vs. the Accord EX-L V6 and the Sonata 2.0T Limited--two cars on their last 10Best list. But the Passat beat them both. At least, the V6 Passat beat the V6 Accord and turbo Sonata. They confessed they like the I4 Accord more than the V6 Accord, and it might have been a different story if they compared the Passat 2.5L I5 to the I4 Accord and 2.4L Sonata.

    It's a strange review, for C/D. The car that won seems to have the worst handling in their eyes. Usually C/D gives the top slot to whichever car handles best... which I figure is why they love the Accord so much and why they named the Sonata to their 10Best list last year. But this time they raved about the interior and the smooth ride, and the smooth V6 engine.

    Given how few people will buy the V6 (or turbo) variants of these cars vs. the regular I4/I5 models, kinda strange they decided to compare the V6s and turbo. I expect when their next 10Best issue rolls around, the Accord will be on the list again. I doubt the Passat will be.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Rented and tested a bunch of cars in the last six months and ended up buying one.

    My least favorite 2011 Sonota, ride is horrible made family nauseas. Most favorite g37 ended up buying it. Rented CTS, nothing special and rented the Camry twice.

    Camry was actually my favorite. Great mileage 30 overall, spacious, quiet and nice on the highway.

    When I was at ford I sat in the fusion, couldn't bring myself to test drive it just didn't like it. Drove the Taurus didn't like the road feel. Same for MKS.

    The 2012 Camry sounds like a winner and think that Toyota will again sell a bunch of them.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If the Camry was your favorite, why didn't you buy it? Would have saved you a bunch over a G37. Would have saved a lot in gas also, especially with the hybrid Camry (LE hybrid looks like a good deal for the money).

    Sonata making a family nauseous... that's a new one.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    edited October 2011
    I wanted more of a sporty sedan With a rwd bias, hence the g, but I like renting the Camry.

    Had the Sonota for three weeks enough to get a really good idea of the handling. IMO the Camry handles far better than the Sonota although the Sonota had more room.
  • Sandman6472Sandman6472 Member Posts: 6,948
    Is this the Camry model you rented? If not, can understand why you went for the G37, but the 2012 Camry looks to be a real winner and I agree...Toyota will sell a bunch of 'em! At the Honda dealer now and just sat in a loaded Accord...a real sweet vehicle and even the leather is real nice but it's just plain too big...way too big of a mid sized car. From the pics I've seen, the Camry just looks smaller even though it's probably not. But in the looks department, it blows the Accord out of the water. Honda needs to redo the Accord, like...yesterday! Even the new Civic I just sat in is nothing to write home about! The inside is too plasticy, the dash looks dated & the overall feel & look of the interior is so old looking. The Elantra has a more pleasing interior by far...a more swoopy, modern dash with a nice color on the radio & speedo...a more modern look which fits in well with the exterior look of the car. Even the Focus looks more modern & up to date than the Civic. Honda has really dropped the ball with these two models and is no longer the benchmark in its class...will be very interested to see what the next generation Sentra & Corolla will look like. Nissan & Toyota really need to hit a grand slam with them or Hyundai & Ford will increase their market shares dramatically!

    The Sandman :) :sick: :shades:

    2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The new Camry won't blow away anybody. It's no worse than the current one but that's not saying much from a styling standpoint.

    The new Fusion should really blow away most of the competition.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Rented the 2011 Camry. I should actually clarify something. Family was looking for two cars, one for me and one for my son. We were all over the place in terms of car dealers and during the preceeding months rented Sonota, G37, CTS, Camry and Corolla.

    I was unimpressed with a loaded Honda, walked in walked out. Looked at the 2011 Camry for me and my son but couldn't decide.

    When we stopped at the Ford dealer looked at the 2012 Focus. Took it for a test drive and knew it was a winner for my son. Was unimpressed with Fusion, Taurus, MKS. So bought the Focus, which I thought was clearly better than the Corolla and Civic.

    I ended up buying the G because I wanted an ELLPS with a rear-wheel drive bias and all of the goodies.

    The family was impressed with the "toys" in the Sonota, but in a first for us, all passengers felt naueous on long trips, it had something to do with the bobbing of the suspension. It didn't exactly inspire confidence for the driver either.

    Had the 2012 Camry been out at the time we were looking, I would have considered it for my son. With the 2012 Camry, it appears Toyota did what was expected. It even has entune, which I wish a comparable feature was available on my G.

    If you didn't like Toyota or the Camry to begin with, this refresh will leave you cold. But if you either liked Toyota and were waiting or were on the fence, this refresh will likely bring you back into the Toyota fold.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    The new Camry is OK looking on the outside and is a little better than the current one but I really never had a problem with the exterior of the current Camry like a lot of folks. The interior was what sucked and a little too soft of suspension. But their drivetrains have always been excellent and they have ugraded the interior a bunch. But you're right that it doesn't blow anything away.

    I haven't seen any actual photos of the new Fusion so I don't know how you can say it will blow away most of the competition especially when a new Altima and Accord will be arriving around the same time. Have you seen those cars as well? Just a little premature to be saying that IMO.

    The only midsizers that have really blown the competition away in the exterior styling IMO is the Sonata and Optima. I have a lot of qualms about these cars in many aspects but the styling is touched by nobody.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    People seem to like Altima although I think it's ugly and hate the CVT. My casual observation says there are a ton of them on the road. And I'm sure a ton of 2012s will be sold also.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    This is a rendering of the 2013 Fusion that folks who have seen the real one say is fairly close - but the real one looks even better. There are a lot of Aston Martin cues in it.

    image
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "The only midsizers that have really blown the competition away in the exterior styling IMO is the Sonata and Optima. I have a lot of qualms about these cars in many aspects but the styling is touched by nobody. "

    I totally disagree. I absolutely hate the new Sonata. It looks like the offspring of a '96 Taurus and an '04 Solara. It's quite possible a catfish was the inspiration for its design.

    The Optima is nice though. At least I thought so before I sat in one.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I realize styling is subjective but I think the vast majority would agree the Sonata styling has been a tremendous hit since being introduced. Sales numbers bear that out as well.

    You thought the styling on the Optima was nice until you sat in it? What does sitting in a car have to do with the exterior styling which is what I was talking about?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Looks pretty good in that photo from that angle and I see the Focus in the front end. But like you said it's a rendering. I always wait until I see cars in the flesh and also see the other cars I'm comparing it to before I start salivating and stating it's going to blow the others away.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    edited October 2011
    The people who have seen the real thing have all said that it looks even better and more "sinister" than the rendering.

    We should see it and the new MKZ (which is supposed to be very different but still great looking) either at the LA or Detroit auto shows.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    The LA show. That's right around the corner. Will that be pretty much the production ready version or will it be a close "concept"?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I agree with you, the Sonota isn't all that good looking, but more importantly the ride, IMO, leaves a lot to be desired.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I would have to see it in person, the rendering doesn't do anything for me.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Considering you like Camrys - I'm not surprised in the least.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    What do you think about Aston Martins? I'm guessing you don't like those either?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I think Job 1 is 1Q2012 so it should be the production version.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    edited October 2011
    Aston Martins are nice, this is not an aston martin. it looks like a morph between a generic american sedan and a generic japanese sedan. And it's not that I don't like Fords, I just bought one.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    ... Has anyone seen the Mazda Takeri Concept photos? It's supposed to make the Tokyo Auto Show and be a good indicator of the next Mazda 6.

    One word: Wow!

    image

    I know it's a "concept", but based on the Minagi Concept that's translated to the upcoming CX-5 (with only small detail changes), I've got high hopes for the next 6. :shades:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    It looks like an Infiniti M copycat. What's up with that?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It has a lot of Aston Martin styling cues, especially the rear haunches which you can't see in this picture.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Speaking of lots of Altimas on the road... I've spent the week driving two Altima 2.5 S rentals. The first was in Dallas, had 25k miles. The 2nd was in KC, has 15k miles.

    It's been a strange experience. The Altima with 25k miles was one of the worst driving experiences I've had (outside a Corolla or Matrix) in memory. The dash rattled. The engine sounded like an ancient diesel most of the time. The ride was hard. The driver's seat was too flat, so I felt like I was sitting on it vs. in it. The whole car felt cheap, except the HVAC controls which I like the design of.

    Then I get another Altima in KC (it was either that or a Corolla... nuff said). This one had only 15k miles, otherwise the same equipment. What a difference! The ride was quiet and smooth. The car felt solid, no rattles/squeaks. The driver's seat felt better, although still too flat for my taste. The engine is still noisy on warmup and acceleration, but not as much as the other rental with 25k miles.

    These experiences lead me to ask: who buys all these Altimas compared to very nice cars like Fusion, Mazda6, Camry, Accord, Sonata (note spelling, folks... SonAta), the new Passat, etc.? What do they see in them? How could a car be so used-up after only 25k miles? How could anyone stand a modern mid-sized car with an engine that raucous? Why would CR rate it so highly?

    Maybe that's why I see so many of them when I rent cars.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    My opinion: Goshn = Le Cost Cutter = Cheapness (Maybe he's trying to bring back the 80's!)
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I like it generally but that schnoz (front overhang) has got to go. It looks like Jimmy Durante.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Lol, funny. Agreed.
  • mannygomannygo Member Posts: 9
    You should check out a Hyundai Sonata. I drove one with 22K miles on it.

    I was just disgusted a one year old car with 22K miles on this could be so loud and harsh. Made me turn off that brand in a heartbeat!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Odd; I have a Sonata with 63,000 miles on it. It is world's quieter than my Accord that preceded it, and rides softer too. The Accord was stiffly sprung, handled beautifully for a family car, but the Hyundai is much more compliant and quiet in comparison.

    Some days I miss my 06 Accord (on a fun road), but the 09 Sonata suits my needs better. Still has plenty of warranty left, 83 more horses, more features, and returns low 30s on the freeway, which is where the majority of my drive-time is spent. I'd recommend Hyundai to anyone.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Hi grad,

    You may recommend the '09 but I can't recommend the '11. I guess I can recommend it, if I don't talk about the handling and the styling. I liked mostly everything else.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Nor can I dispute you - I've never driven the '11.

    Yes, my '09 may not be exciting to look at (Cocoa Metallic GLS V6 with moonroof), but it's a welcome treat when I drive it over my '96 Accord, which I still have. It has 232k miles and is my daily commuter/beater since I drive 90mi/day round trip with work.

    It's funny, the 130 horse compact Accord is averaging 32 mpg; the same that my Sonata gets on the same commute.

    Times have changed, and even my Sonata is out of date with a 5-speed automatic and 3.3L V6, but I still like it. :) The 1996 Accord, though... that's love.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Rental cars aren't the best determination as they all are not taken care of, properly maintained, and they are beat to heck by everyone who uses them. I've had the same experience you had with a Camry, Malibu, and a Fusion rental but I don't go on questioning why people buy those vehicles, its a little presumptuous to do so. Actually, if you look at this C&D article, the altima was not any louder than the other ones at full throttle and cruise.

    Plus, I see just as many Camry's, Fusion's, and Malibu's as rental car fodder like I do the Altima. It has nothing to do with the car, but the incentive spending Toyota, Nissan, Ford, and GM have. The domestics still lead the pack in that respect.

    Seat comfort is another highly subject quality. I found the seats in the Altima pretty comfortable, but the ones in the Accord and Sonata to be too firm and uncomfortable after just a few minutes.

    http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2008-honda-accord-vs-nissan-altima-chevy-mal- ibu-hyundai-sonata-toyota-camry-ford-fusion-dodge-avengerthe-buzzard-and-baloney- -brigade-1.pdf
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Rental cars are not properly maintained? Really? What do you base that on?

    I think that how a rental car holds up under a year plus of hard use is a great indicator of how it will hold up in multiple years' use for someone like me. I've driven many rental cars with 25K+ miles. Some were like brand new. Others were gently worn, as you'd expect for a car with 25k+ miles. Then there's that Altima in Dallas...

    One of the reasons I started paying attention to Hyundai was a Gen 2 Elantra rental in 2000 in Dallas. It had about 25k miles on it. But it was tight, rattle-free, nothing falling off, interior and exterior still looked like new. That was not long after I had rented a brand-new Focus in Chicago that literally had parts falling off it.

    As for the Altima, one trait all of them (all 2.5s) I've rented shared, no matter what the mileage, is that the engines clatter like an old diesel warming up and on acceleration. No other mid-sized cars I've driven do that. The Altima I rented in KC this week was quite nice (the one with 15k miles) except for the noisy engine. But nothing special. I'd take a Fusion, Accord, Mazda6, Sonata, Optima, or Legacy over it in a minute (and maybe a Passat and 2012 Camry, but I haven't driven those yet).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I've driven many 2011-12 rental Sonatas. Some brand new, some with 20-25k+ miles. I've liked all of them. Maybe because they were GLSes with 16" wheels. The Sonatas with larger wheels may have a harsher ride. Also I liked the styling (inside and out), interior room, driving position, power, handling, and fuel economy. All were better than the Altimas I drove this week. But I have a hard time finding them when I rent cars. Probably because I usually have to rent from Hertz and they don't have many/any Hyundais in their fleet anymore.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Yes, we all know you love Hyundai, something you like to remind us of at every opportunity.

    I'd take the Altima over the Camry, Malibu, Accord, or Fusion any day. My point is, your experience proves nothing. Rental cars are properly maintained, what world do you live in? I've had some with two bald tires (never rotated properly), completely warped/grinding rotors, burning oil odors because the oil was never change, no windshield wiper fluid, need I go on? I have a Maxima with 27k miles, nothing is falling off, rattle free, interior and exterior look like new, etc but I take care of it.

    I had two rental cars recently, a Camry and Malibu where the console actually detached off in my hands. Even Hyundai is guilty of incentive spending and I've started to see the new Sonata creep in to the rental lots. The only one that is harder to find as a rental is the Accord.

    I'll agree, the Altima is starting to show its age, its the oldest in the midsize sedan segment now, so its not's going to be as nice and flashy as a brand new Sonata or Camry, but they are newer models. But, the Altima is still selling well and gets decent reviews across the board from CR, C&D, MT, JDP, etc. I'm actually not crazy about the new Camry, but never have been to begin with, too boring.
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