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Comments
"Your experience proves nothing." :P
I take care of my cars also (including my daily driver, a NISSAN Sentra). So if a car can hold up under 25K or more of hard rental use, that's a plus in my book. That's all I'm trying to say. Also that some cars have, in my 25 years' experience in renting hundreds of cars, held up better than others.
Actually I think the Galant might be the oldest mid-sized design now (not that anyone cares), followed by the Fusion. But a new Fusion is coming soon. When will the new Altima be here?
Initially I thought the Optima itself was nice and worth a look based on the exterior styling. Then I sat in it. I hated the interior. The interior of our '11 Fusion isn't anything to write home about but it was a lot less offending and more modern looking than the Optima's IMO. The whole IP integrated with the center console look has to go just as it did once before in the 80s.
"I realize styling is subjective but I think the vast majority would agree the Sonata styling has been a tremendous hit since being introduced. Sales numbers bear that out as well."
I do recognize that but I still think the design is awful and as you've probably read in another post I'm not alone. It looks like a blob that hit a wall to me. People buy the Camry and Accord in droves so basing sales on styling holds no ground to me.
I give Hyundai/Kia credit for going to an I4 lineup though. Looks like most mfrs are following suit and I think that's the way to go. I was always a more displacement is better type of guy but our Fusion is an I4 and it has plenty of power for us. It's also a hoot to drive which is something the Sonota and Optima can't claim based on reviews I've read.
Re the Optima interior. I'll agree it has, from what I've read, about a 50-50 like/dislike ratio. You say the Optima dash is offending? I don't think I've ever in my life been offended by a dash or interior of any car. Didn't like, sure, but offended? I personally like the "cockpit" feel in the Optima versus the swooping dash of the Sonata but that's just me and I don't try to come off as an authority on style.
I agree. If people think that rental cars are in better shape than their cars, they probably didn't wash, detail or maintain their cars for the last 2 years.
I used to drive rental cars a lot in early 2000s and they all looked like $hit b/c renters like to abuse these cars so much. One of my friends likes to floor his rental cars every time he can. He even used the from quarter panel to scrape out the mud from his shoes.
As I've tried to point out, your bashing an entire car model that sells more than 250k models per year that constantly gets good to great reviews and rankings, especially considering its 6 years old.
I'm not that crazy about this segment though as too many of any of these mid sizer's end up on the road. I like to stay with the premium sedan and ELLPS segments so that I have a car that is not so numerous, but that is just me.
The title of my original post was, "Tale of two Altimas." Not sure how you can call that bashing of an entire car model. I talked about how nice one rental Altima was and how bad the other was. I also noted that every current gen Altima 2.5 I've driven, regardless of miles, has a raucous engine on warmup and acceleration. Even that isn't bashing an entire car model as it only relates to the 2.5's with CVT, not to 2.5 sticks or V6s, as I haven't driven those.
Anyway, I am entitled to my opinion of the cars I drive just as much as you are. If you don't want to read my opinions, use the Page Down key. Or go to the Sentra discussion and see my posts there if you are only interested in "feeling the love" for Nissan and not reading anything negative about the brand. Oh wait... I think I've said a few negative things about my Sentra there in addition to positive things. So forget that idea.
Good, if your entitled to your opinion, so am I. I had a 2011 Sonata rental about 4 months ago.
Who buys all these Sonata's compared to very nice cars like Fusion, Mazda6, Camry, Accord, Altima, the new Passat, etc.? What do they see in them? How could a car be so sluggish with its base engine, have a 6spd that reacts lethargically, too much hunting for low gears, have a steering wheel that is so off center/artificial feeling, mediocre stopping distant/mushy brakes after only several thousand miles? How could anyone stand a modern mid-sized car with that kind of driving characteristics? Plus, the front seats are so firm, they push in on your back and become uncomfortable after 15 minutes of driving. Why would CR rate it so highly?
Well that seals it. I was thinking about buying a new Sonata, but after reading this thorough review from smarty666 which points out all these problems, I'd have to be an idiot to buy one of those cars!
Suzuki Kizashi
I test drove one and the ride was very comfortable. The pushbutton start was new to me and all of the buttons for HVAC and stereo looked easy to manipulate, I don't know for sure because I didn't need to use them. The blinker and gearshift worked plainly and clearly well. The one I drove was an automatic CVT, I was ready to buy a 6-speed stick shift Kizashi in red but couldn't work out a deal with the Suzuki dealer in Henderson, NV.
I may yet buy a Kizashi, the car took bumps and easily just flattened them out. I just love the look of the Kizashi, it looks like a VW Jetta or maybe more an older Passat on some serious steroids. I pushed it hard just once in to a curve and the Kizashi was ready to play, it held on a dime just like my '08 Lancer GTS. I am a fan and I don't see that changing any time soon.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
As for a sluggish base engine... Sonata beat Altima, Accord, and Mazda6 in Edmunds' road tests, 0-30 and 0-60. So looks like much of the mid-sized class with I4s is "sluggish" in your opinion, is that right?
The Altima does have nice handling for a mid-sized family car. I don't think it's any better than the likes of Fusion, Mazda6, or Sonata (for 3), but it's one of the car's best features I think. That and the smooth and logical HVAC controls. Wish more cars had layouts like that.
Let's stop taking everything so personally. These cars are appliances. Some are more fun than others, some more comfortable, and all have varying levels of each. Get over it. If you don't like the Altima, great. If you love it, fantastic. Chances are we all know that by now.
Just about the only reason the Suzuki Kizashi is being discussed in this thread is because I love the car and it is referred to by the car news media as a midsize car. You're right, it is more a compact car, though, in reality, which is another bean in the positive bucket reason why I love the car. Drove like a dream!
Suzuki Kizashi in that delicious red...this is what I'm talkin' about...I would buy one in 6-speed standard transmission form
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I would never question why somebody buys are car, but if someone says the ride is great and I disagree I'm going to say so.
Now, I do have to say, some of the new turbo I4s coming out are making me reconsider my 6 cyl policy. I'm particularly interested to see the new BMW I4 next year in the 3 series.
I don't think flooring a car should "hurt" it at all. With the rev limiters and engine and transmission programming cars have these days, flooring it should be harmless and idiot proof (other than if they crash).
Now, cigarette burn marks in the interior, that's just plain abuse and neglect. As far as using the quarter panel to scrape out mud from the shoes, as long as he doesn't dent or scratch/scrape the paint, he should be fine. Enterprise likes to charge $250 phantom "dent" fees when you return a car these days.
Last time I returned a car they pointed out a couple so-called "phantom" dents, as I didn't notice them and considered them so minor that it was frivolous. Upon return they pointed them out and we both had to look at the other side to be sure there was even a dent and it wasn't a pre-designed door panel contour. It was a Mazda 3 sedan. Main thing I noticed was the sheet metal was soda can thin compared to my Audi A3.
So they tried to charge me $250 for a dent that would be easily missed in the pre-inspection especially since they try to hide the dents by having the car soaked in water when they give it to you. Enterprise is a corrupt company in my book; this is the 2nd time shenanigans have gone on with them, the 1st being unrelated to car damage, however.
What happens to an automaker if they choose to ignore the FE regs?
I haven't driven the new Sonata Turbo or Optima Turbo yet, but when are they going to put that in the Genesis Coupe, as the Genesis 2.0T was generally panned in the media as an also-ran.
So what? This is a forum where folks express their opinions. Get used to it.
"Camry and Accord sales are based on their longevity and perception of reliability...not styling."
Right. Now do the math. If the Sonata had "everybody loves it" styling and reliability to boot it would stand a good chance at overtaking one of those perennial sales leaders. I'm telling you it should be selling better if the styling is everything you think it's cracked up to be. It's been rated well on reliability so what's missing?
But just because they get an estimate, if even that, it doesn't prove they repaired the damage and incurred actual claimable losses.
They at least did me the courtesy of telling me their were dents on the car right after returning it; while I was still there. They then checked their computer, and said checking the last 10 rentals there was only a note about a dent on the right side, none about the one on the left side; so that's the one they attempted to charge me for.
When arguing with my credit card company on a chargeback (because the Enterprise Manager could not accept he might have been wrong and missed the damage on the initial inspection), I pointed out that there was no proof they fixed the dent in order to make a claim against me, and furthermore, I argued the damaged didn't happen while the car was in my possession (I only had the car for like 9 hours; 3 of which were spent driving it). So the chances he was right were like 1%, and the chances I'm right is like 99%. I couldn't justify paying them with those odds.
It is missing long term reliability ratings. It is missing a historic reputation for quality that holds true for decades, not months.
Honda and Toyota OWN in that regard.
Really? Didn't know that.. Thanks for the tip. Please note sarcasm.
Did I say that opinions weren't allowed? I was simply stating that Sonata and Optima sales have jumped tremendously and I believe it was mainly due to their new styling which most people and auto reviewers like. You think the Sonata is ugly and the interior of the Optima offends you. That's fine and that's your opinion but I doubt their huge sales increases were based on their reliability or drivetrains perception. Like I said, I don't own these and have no plans to but do give them credit for what they've been doing lately and the huge sales increases(percentages) they've enjoyed of late.
Never said anything about "everybody loves it". Don't know why you put that in quotations as I never said it. Please don't put words into my post so to speak. Will they overtake the "perennial sales leaders"? Hardly, they are still way behind in overall sales and it would take years to match them. And the leaders are not standing still. Toyota seems to have improved the interior a lot which should help sales and the exterior IMO is a little better as well. To say they should overtake the leaders just because they have nice styling would be silly.
They pay fines.
And the only difference between Republicans and Democrats is what they want to spend OUR money on.........
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On another note I was interviewed by the NYTimes (through an edmunds.com referral) and they published my quotes on a 2011 Lacrosse that I just bought new in September. Edmunds kicked in a free t-shirt and several post cards.
Another guy they interviewed bought an Optima EX Turbo. The article can be read here: NYTimes Automobiles
The mileage figures are puzzling. My Lacrosse weighs 3800lbs, the Regal 3600lbs, and the Verano 3500lbs. Same engine is each and very close EPA numbers.
I've been averaging 25mpg in my Lacrosse running 87 octane, no ethanol fuel. 30mpg on the hwy is achieveable but not at 75mph like I drive on the Interstate. It's in town mileage where I beat the rated 19mpg easily. 21mpg city is not a problem and 29mpg hwy has been typical. Very happy with this car.
Nothing but ethanol around the Chicagoland area so I imagine the Lacrosses numbers would be a little less here although I am usually at or better on my three vehicles versus the EPA estimates even with the ethonol.
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I was committed to buying a domestic make this time. My prior new car purchases include: Honda, Audi, Chrysler, and Ford. This is my first new GM product.
Pertinent to this discussion, I also test drove a 2011 Chevrolet Malibu LT and 2011 Ford Fusion SE. Both of these cars drove well with the edge going to the Malibu for road feel and handling. The Fusion looked better to my eyes. Both need am all-new 2013 model asap. It was clear these two designs were 5 years old.
Camry Hybrid 0-60 time = 7.2 secs
Sonata 8.2 secs, Sonata Turbo 6.7 secs
Also, I believe the Jetta TDI is around 8.5 secs or something like that.
(numbers were taken from a couple of different sources so they may not match up with every single review out there)
That's only 1/2 second slower to 60 than a Sonata Turbo. Sounds pretty good for a hybrid that will average about 40mpg per gal on reg unleaded day in day out.
Now I realized that 0-60 times are not what turns on most midsize buyers but many, myself included, like a little pep on occassion. I use those times mostly for relative comparison. I just assumed hybrids were really pokey but these numbers are kind of eye opening. The only hybrid I've driven is an older Prius and didn't like much about the drive at all. But based on what I've been reading about the new Camry Hybrid, I may have to test drive it.
It's rated at about 43cty/39hwy and with diesel prices at about a 60 cent premium right now in the Chicago area it seems to be enticing. I know a couple of others on here have mentioned it as a potential value in the midsize class and from what I've read I would have to agree.
YAMV.
What do you mean it(Fusion Hybrid) is so far ahead? It costs thousands more than the 2012 Camry Hybrid and the 2011 Sonata Hybrid. It gets substantially less MPG than the Camry and around the same overall as the Sonata. I don't call that "far ahead" at all. Maybe the new one will be but the current one...No.
The Fusion has a 2 year head start. The 2013 Fusion will leapfrog the Camry next year and Ford will be ahead again. And the C-Max should also give the Prius a run for its money on the smaller lower end.
If they manage to get better gas millage, well, it would be great for all customers, but right now we do not have any information.
It is great that Toyota was able to imrove the gas millage of Camry Hybrid by 9 MPG. I believe that Camry Hybrid is the best Camry among all different Camry models.
I'm talking about the 2012 Camry. Let's compare what is available right now as that is what I was talking about. When the new Fusion Hybrid gets here than we can compare but right now the current Fusion Hybrid is behind. And I think Toyota has a lot longer successful history with hybrid tech than Ford has via the Prius if I'm not mistaken.
If the Ford leapfrogs the Camry in the future I will readily admit it as I have no vested interest other than for discussion sake. You seem to have a hard time dealing with the here and now. Fusion Hybrid WAS better than the Camry Hybrid but the Camry has in your words leapfrogged the Fusion. Just accept for it for now.