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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited October 2011
    I have a Maxima with 27k miles, nothing is falling off, rattle free, interior and exterior look like new, etc but I take care of it.

    "Your experience proves nothing." :P

    I take care of my cars also (including my daily driver, a NISSAN Sentra). So if a car can hold up under 25K or more of hard rental use, that's a plus in my book. That's all I'm trying to say. Also that some cars have, in my 25 years' experience in renting hundreds of cars, held up better than others.

    Actually I think the Galant might be the oldest mid-sized design now (not that anyone cares), followed by the Fusion. But a new Fusion is coming soon. When will the new Altima be here?
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "You thought the styling on the Optima was nice until you sat in it? What does sitting in a car have to do with the exterior styling which is what I was talking about?"

    Initially I thought the Optima itself was nice and worth a look based on the exterior styling. Then I sat in it. I hated the interior. The interior of our '11 Fusion isn't anything to write home about but it was a lot less offending and more modern looking than the Optima's IMO. The whole IP integrated with the center console look has to go just as it did once before in the 80s.

    "I realize styling is subjective but I think the vast majority would agree the Sonata styling has been a tremendous hit since being introduced. Sales numbers bear that out as well."

    I do recognize that but I still think the design is awful and as you've probably read in another post I'm not alone. It looks like a blob that hit a wall to me. People buy the Camry and Accord in droves so basing sales on styling holds no ground to me.

    I give Hyundai/Kia credit for going to an I4 lineup though. Looks like most mfrs are following suit and I think that's the way to go. I was always a more displacement is better type of guy but our Fusion is an I4 and it has plenty of power for us. It's also a hoot to drive which is something the Sonota and Optima can't claim based on reviews I've read.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I was STRICTLY talking about the Sonata/Optima exterior styling of which the VAST majority(I know you will read others that don't like it) seem to like including just about every professional auto reviewer. Camry and Accord sales are based on their longevity and perception of reliability...not styling. The reason I cited Sonata/Optima sales is that it is because of their styling that sales have taken off like crazy. Same with Elantra. I realize the drivetrains changed for 2011 but that isn't what generated all the buzz and subsequent sales. I don't own or even plan on buying any of them but have to give them their kudos for something they're doing right.

    Re the Optima interior. I'll agree it has, from what I've read, about a 50-50 like/dislike ratio. You say the Optima dash is offending? I don't think I've ever in my life been offended by a dash or interior of any car. Didn't like, sure, but offended? I personally like the "cockpit" feel in the Optima versus the swooping dash of the Sonata but that's just me and I don't try to come off as an authority on style.
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    Rental cars aren't the best determination as they all are not taken care of, properly maintained, and they are beat to heck by everyone who uses them.

    I agree. If people think that rental cars are in better shape than their cars, they probably didn't wash, detail or maintain their cars for the last 2 years.

    I used to drive rental cars a lot in early 2000s and they all looked like $hit b/c renters like to abuse these cars so much. One of my friends likes to floor his rental cars every time he can. He even used the from quarter panel to scrape out the mud from his shoes.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I'm actually not sure. Nissan has moved back to 6 yr model design cycles so I figure by the summer/fall of next year the 2013 Altima will arrive. I think around the same time will be getting the 2013 Malibu redesign as well.

    As I've tried to point out, your bashing an entire car model that sells more than 250k models per year that constantly gets good to great reviews and rankings, especially considering its 6 years old.

    I'm not that crazy about this segment though as too many of any of these mid sizer's end up on the road. I like to stay with the premium sedan and ELLPS segments so that I have a car that is not so numerous, but that is just me.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    As I've tried to point out, your bashing an entire car model ...

    The title of my original post was, "Tale of two Altimas." Not sure how you can call that bashing of an entire car model. I talked about how nice one rental Altima was and how bad the other was. I also noted that every current gen Altima 2.5 I've driven, regardless of miles, has a raucous engine on warmup and acceleration. Even that isn't bashing an entire car model as it only relates to the 2.5's with CVT, not to 2.5 sticks or V6s, as I haven't driven those.

    Anyway, I am entitled to my opinion of the cars I drive just as much as you are. If you don't want to read my opinions, use the Page Down key. Or go to the Sentra discussion and see my posts there if you are only interested in "feeling the love" for Nissan and not reading anything negative about the brand. Oh wait... I think I've said a few negative things about my Sentra there in addition to positive things. So forget that idea.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited October 2011
    Blah Blah Blah as usual...

    Good, if your entitled to your opinion, so am I. I had a 2011 Sonata rental about 4 months ago.

    Who buys all these Sonata's compared to very nice cars like Fusion, Mazda6, Camry, Accord, Altima, the new Passat, etc.? What do they see in them? How could a car be so sluggish with its base engine, have a 6spd that reacts lethargically, too much hunting for low gears, have a steering wheel that is so off center/artificial feeling, mediocre stopping distant/mushy brakes after only several thousand miles? How could anyone stand a modern mid-sized car with that kind of driving characteristics? Plus, the front seats are so firm, they push in on your back and become uncomfortable after 15 minutes of driving. Why would CR rate it so highly?
  • autokritikerautokritiker Member Posts: 65
    DISCLAIMER - the following is pure sarcasm:

    Well that seals it. I was thinking about buying a new Sonata, but after reading this thorough review from smarty666 which points out all these problems, I'd have to be an idiot to buy one of those cars!
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited October 2011
    is the Suzuki Kizashi. Suzuki made a comfortable sedan with a competent engine with an ample Warranty.

    image
    Suzuki Kizashi

    I test drove one and the ride was very comfortable. The pushbutton start was new to me and all of the buttons for HVAC and stereo looked easy to manipulate, I don't know for sure because I didn't need to use them. The blinker and gearshift worked plainly and clearly well. The one I drove was an automatic CVT, I was ready to buy a 6-speed stick shift Kizashi in red but couldn't work out a deal with the Suzuki dealer in Henderson, NV.

    I may yet buy a Kizashi, the car took bumps and easily just flattened them out. I just love the look of the Kizashi, it looks like a VW Jetta or maybe more an older Passat on some serious steroids. I pushed it hard just once in to a curve and the Kizashi was ready to play, it held on a dime just like my '08 Lancer GTS. I am a fan and I don't see that changing any time soon.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    CR must have a different opinion. And C/D (10Best). And Edmunds (topped Accord and Mazda6i).

    As for a sluggish base engine... Sonata beat Altima, Accord, and Mazda6 in Edmunds' road tests, 0-30 and 0-60. So looks like much of the mid-sized class with I4s is "sluggish" in your opinion, is that right?

    The Altima does have nice handling for a mid-sized family car. I don't think it's any better than the likes of Fusion, Mazda6, or Sonata (for 3), but it's one of the car's best features I think. That and the smooth and logical HVAC controls. Wish more cars had layouts like that.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    ...that one man's perfect car is one that is too soft for one, too rough for another, and awkwardly styled for another?

    Let's stop taking everything so personally. These cars are appliances. Some are more fun than others, some more comfortable, and all have varying levels of each. Get over it. If you don't like the Altima, great. If you love it, fantastic. Chances are we all know that by now.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited October 2011
    I was being sarcastic in my post, it seems nobody caught that. I just can't stand when someone comes on here and questions why people are buying a certain car. It is not nice to do and presumptuous. I don't care for the Sonata or Malibu but I don't go on to those discussion, point out the flaws or negatives about the car, and question people why they would even buy those vehicles. It is one thing to dislike a vehicle yourself, but questioning other people's buying choice is something else.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I actually don't really care as I don't have vehicles with less than 6 cyls.
  • oldburbnewcx9oldburbnewcx9 Member Posts: 53
    I am not sure why the Kizashi is getting discussed here. It is NOT a midsize sedan but a compact sedan. The EPA total volume is only 105 cuft. Definitely in the middle of the compact size range.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'm confused now. Since you were talking about your opinion of Sonatas with the "base engine", which is an I4 (actually all it has is I4s), I had the impression you DID care about vehicles with fewer than 6 cylinders. I could see how you would think the 198 hp I4 is sluggish compared to something like a Maxima with its V6. But that's not really apples to apples.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited October 2011
    I am not sure why the Kizashi is getting discussed here. It is NOT a midsize sedan but a compact sedan. The EPA total volume is only 105 cuft. Definitely in the middle of the compact size range.

    Just about the only reason the Suzuki Kizashi is being discussed in this thread is because I love the car and it is referred to by the car news media as a midsize car. You're right, it is more a compact car, though, in reality, which is another bean in the positive bucket reason why I love the car. Drove like a dream!

    image
    Suzuki Kizashi in that delicious red...this is what I'm talkin' about...I would buy one in 6-speed standard transmission form

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Why not point out the flaws and negatives? You can't just point out the positive points and be done with it.

    I would never question why somebody buys are car, but if someone says the ride is great and I disagree I'm going to say so.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    No, I was only talking about the Sonata I4 because I had one as a rental car a few months back and comparing it to the other I4's I've had for rental cars. I've read a few reviews online commenting on its sluggish acceleration. I think I just read a C&D article saying it was 0.5 secs slower than the new Camry in 0-30.

    Now, I do have to say, some of the new turbo I4s coming out are making me reconsider my 6 cyl policy. I'm particularly interested to see the new BMW I4 next year in the 3 series.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    As you may have seen, Chevy is ditching the V6 on the 2013 Malibu. Who knows, maybe in a few years we won't see V6s in any mid-sized family cars. Or even luxury cars... the 5 Series will be getting a turbo 4 soon. The new FE regs will probably force automakers to go that route in their mass-market cars.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    I used to drive rental cars a lot in early 2000s and they all looked like $hit b/c renters like to abuse these cars so much. One of my friends likes to floor his rental cars every time he can. He even used the from quarter panel to scrape out the mud from his shoes.

    I don't think flooring a car should "hurt" it at all. With the rev limiters and engine and transmission programming cars have these days, flooring it should be harmless and idiot proof (other than if they crash).

    Now, cigarette burn marks in the interior, that's just plain abuse and neglect. As far as using the quarter panel to scrape out mud from the shoes, as long as he doesn't dent or scratch/scrape the paint, he should be fine. Enterprise likes to charge $250 phantom "dent" fees when you return a car these days.

    Last time I returned a car they pointed out a couple so-called "phantom" dents, as I didn't notice them and considered them so minor that it was frivolous. Upon return they pointed them out and we both had to look at the other side to be sure there was even a dent and it wasn't a pre-designed door panel contour. It was a Mazda 3 sedan. Main thing I noticed was the sheet metal was soda can thin compared to my Audi A3.

    So they tried to charge me $250 for a dent that would be easily missed in the pre-inspection especially since they try to hide the dents by having the car soaked in water when they give it to you. Enterprise is a corrupt company in my book; this is the 2nd time shenanigans have gone on with them, the 1st being unrelated to car damage, however.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    The new FE regs will probably force automakers to go that route in their mass-market cars.

    What happens to an automaker if they choose to ignore the FE regs?
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    The best turbo 4 engine right now in my opinion is the VW/Audi 2.0T.

    I haven't driven the new Sonata Turbo or Optima Turbo yet, but when are they going to put that in the Genesis Coupe, as the Genesis 2.0T was generally panned in the media as an also-ran.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I've been reading more and more horror stories about car rental companies doing stuff like this even after you've paid and left they will send a bill for damage they noticed after you turned the car in. I wonder how many times they have gotten paid for those same little dents without gettting them fixed?
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "I was STRICTLY talking about the Sonata/Optima exterior styling "

    So what? This is a forum where folks express their opinions. Get used to it.

    "Camry and Accord sales are based on their longevity and perception of reliability...not styling."

    Right. Now do the math. If the Sonata had "everybody loves it" styling and reliability to boot it would stand a good chance at overtaking one of those perennial sales leaders. I'm telling you it should be selling better if the styling is everything you think it's cracked up to be. It's been rated well on reliability so what's missing?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    That was my biggest problem. I figured they could have attempted to charge the last 10 customers for the same dent. The $250 charge is a supposed "hold/deposit" for actual damages. If it comes out to say, 180.00, they will send you back $70.00.

    But just because they get an estimate, if even that, it doesn't prove they repaired the damage and incurred actual claimable losses.

    They at least did me the courtesy of telling me their were dents on the car right after returning it; while I was still there. They then checked their computer, and said checking the last 10 rentals there was only a note about a dent on the right side, none about the one on the left side; so that's the one they attempted to charge me for.

    When arguing with my credit card company on a chargeback (because the Enterprise Manager could not accept he might have been wrong and missed the damage on the initial inspection), I pointed out that there was no proof they fixed the dent in order to make a claim against me, and furthermore, I argued the damaged didn't happen while the car was in my possession (I only had the car for like 9 hours; 3 of which were spent driving it). So the chances he was right were like 1%, and the chances I'm right is like 99%. I couldn't justify paying them with those odds.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    I'm telling you it should be selling better if the styling is everything you think it's cracked up to be. It's been rated well on reliability so what's missing?

    It is missing long term reliability ratings. It is missing a historic reputation for quality that holds true for decades, not months.

    Honda and Toyota OWN in that regard.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    It's not a "perception" of reliability they are reliable. Given a percentage or two of lemons that befall every manufacturer Camcords will go the distance.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited October 2011
    So what? This is a forum where folks express their opinions. Get used to it

    Really? Didn't know that.. Thanks for the tip. Please note sarcasm.

    Did I say that opinions weren't allowed? I was simply stating that Sonata and Optima sales have jumped tremendously and I believe it was mainly due to their new styling which most people and auto reviewers like. You think the Sonata is ugly and the interior of the Optima offends you. That's fine and that's your opinion but I doubt their huge sales increases were based on their reliability or drivetrains perception. Like I said, I don't own these and have no plans to but do give them credit for what they've been doing lately and the huge sales increases(percentages) they've enjoyed of late.

    Never said anything about "everybody loves it". Don't know why you put that in quotations as I never said it. Please don't put words into my post so to speak. Will they overtake the "perennial sales leaders"? Hardly, they are still way behind in overall sales and it would take years to match them. And the leaders are not standing still. Toyota seems to have improved the interior a lot which should help sales and the exterior IMO is a little better as well. To say they should overtake the leaders just because they have nice styling would be silly.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    What happens to an automaker if they choose to ignore the FE regs?

    They pay fines.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    That hardly seems fair, since there is already a gas guzzler tax on the consumer. I suppose with the way fines are levied in traffic courts nationwide, the word FINE in the dictionary could be replaced with the word TAX on motorists.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't disagree, but the gas guzzler tax is on an individual vehicle. The CAFE requirements are for groups of vehicles.

    And the only difference between Republicans and Democrats is what they want to spend OUR money on.........
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    I agree the new Camry is far from ground-breaking material. Sure it will sell, Toyota still has a large base of customers and huge dealer network. It's really time for Toyota to shake things up like Hyundai/Kia have done.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    On another note I was interviewed by the NYTimes (through an edmunds.com referral) and they published my quotes on a 2011 Lacrosse that I just bought new in September. Edmunds kicked in a free t-shirt and several post cards. ;)

    Another guy they interviewed bought an Optima EX Turbo. The article can be read here: NYTimes Automobiles
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited November 2011
    Some things the new Camry has going for it are improved FE and a very attractive hybrid package in the LE. Also of course Toyota's long reputation for reliability, and improvements in base power and in interior quality (based on reviews). That is likely more than enough to hold market share, maybe pick some up vs. the likes of Ford, Honda, and Nissan with their relatively old mid-sized offerings. Plus there's a lot of people I think who prefer their cars in Vanilla flavor vs. Tuti-Fruiti. :)
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Interesting article. Didn't want to wait for E-assist huh? That sounds promising. Something that bothers me is when you compare the LaCrosse, Regal and Verano with the 2.4L they all get +/- 1mpg of each other. You would think there would be several mpg difference at least between the LaCrosse and the Verano. I can't figure it.
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    edited November 2011
    Had to pay $6K more for a 2012 with eAssist. Mine is a CX with the Comfort and Convenience package ($900) and 18" alloys/Michelin Pilot rubber off a Regal that wasn't even on the sticker ($23,600 out-the-door).

    The mileage figures are puzzling. My Lacrosse weighs 3800lbs, the Regal 3600lbs, and the Verano 3500lbs. Same engine is each and very close EPA numbers.

    I've been averaging 25mpg in my Lacrosse running 87 octane, no ethanol fuel. 30mpg on the hwy is achieveable but not at 75mph like I drive on the Interstate. It's in town mileage where I beat the rated 19mpg easily. 21mpg city is not a problem and 29mpg hwy has been typical. Very happy with this car. :blush:
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I guess the weight isn't all that much different between them so with the same drivetrain it makes some sense. May have something to do with aerodynamics too.....not just weight. I just always expected when you went from a full size car to a compact car you would get some good mpg improvement. good for you though. :D

    Nothing but ethanol around the Chicagoland area so I imagine the Lacrosses numbers would be a little less here although I am usually at or better on my three vehicles versus the EPA estimates even with the ethonol.
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    m6user: The 10% ethanol fuel hurts my mileage too. In the past I ran it and lost 1 or 2mpg versus 100% gasoline.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    I was committed to buying a domestic make this time. My prior new car purchases include: Honda, Audi, Chrysler, and Ford. This is my first new GM product.

    Pertinent to this discussion, I also test drove a 2011 Chevrolet Malibu LT and 2011 Ford Fusion SE. Both of these cars drove well with the edge going to the Malibu for road feel and handling. The Fusion looked better to my eyes. Both need am all-new 2013 model asap. It was clear these two designs were 5 years old.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited November 2011
    Been reading a couple reviews of the new Camry Hybrid and noticed some things that seem interesting. One of which:

    Camry Hybrid 0-60 time = 7.2 secs
    Sonata 8.2 secs, Sonata Turbo 6.7 secs
    Also, I believe the Jetta TDI is around 8.5 secs or something like that.
    (numbers were taken from a couple of different sources so they may not match up with every single review out there)

    That's only 1/2 second slower to 60 than a Sonata Turbo. Sounds pretty good for a hybrid that will average about 40mpg per gal on reg unleaded day in day out.

    Now I realized that 0-60 times are not what turns on most midsize buyers but many, myself included, like a little pep on occassion. I use those times mostly for relative comparison. I just assumed hybrids were really pokey but these numbers are kind of eye opening. The only hybrid I've driven is an older Prius and didn't like much about the drive at all. But based on what I've been reading about the new Camry Hybrid, I may have to test drive it.

    It's rated at about 43cty/39hwy and with diesel prices at about a 60 cent premium right now in the Chicago area it seems to be enticing. I know a couple of others on here have mentioned it as a potential value in the midsize class and from what I've read I would have to agree.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It helps to compare performance numbers from the same source, as each mag seems to have its own methodology. For example, InsideLine says the Camry Hybrid (rated at 200 total hp) will do 0-60 in 7.6 secs. They also said the 2011 Sonata GLS (198 hp) came in at 7.7 secs in their tests (w/o rollout). That seems reasonable given the cars are about the same size (I would guess the hybrid is a little heavier than the Sonata) and power rating. InsideLine also got 6.6 secs 0-60 on the Sonata 2.0T. Others have reported as low as 5.8 secs. (Those road-burners would probably get a better number in the Camry hybrid too.)

    YAMV.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Yeah, I did a quick google search compare just to get an approximate idea but as you've pointed out the spread can be somewhat substantial between testers. A couple of the times were from the same mag, Motor Trend I believe, and the other I think was Edmunds. All in all though my point was that the Camry Hybrid was quicker than I would have thought and is comparable to the normally aspirated offerings in the midsize class. Stopping distance witth regenerative brakes were pretty close to the others as well.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That's the beauty of electric motors - instant torque. There is no delay waiting for RPM to build up to get usable torque.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Yes, I'm sure that is helping greatly as the hybrid does weigh a little more because of the battery. It seems Toyota and others are starting to chip away at my resistance when it comes to hybrids. They increased the trunk size on the Camry by a couple of cubes which at least puts it close the size of the other midsizers, 13' something I think. They've made the brakes so they aren't so funky. Tire tech is coming around so that you don't feel like you're riding on steel rims when you get the low rolling resistance tires. Don't know if I'm ready yet but they are getting closer to the look, feel and performance of regular sedans which is pretty good IMO.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Anyone who has ever driven an electiric golf cart compared to a gasoline golf cart, knows the the instant torque is much greater in the electric version.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I hear great things are in store for the 2013 Fusion hybrid, which would be amazing considering how far ahead it already is.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    which would be amazing considering how far ahead it already is.

    What do you mean it(Fusion Hybrid) is so far ahead? It costs thousands more than the 2012 Camry Hybrid and the 2011 Sonata Hybrid. It gets substantially less MPG than the Camry and around the same overall as the Sonata. I don't call that "far ahead" at all. Maybe the new one will be but the current one...No.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    In what ways is the Fusion hybrid "far ahead" of the 2012 Camry hybrid?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Camry only gets 2 mpg more than the Fusion - I wouldn't call that "substantially less". However, the 2010-2011 Camry did get "substantially less" MPG than the 2010-2011 FFH (5+).

    The Fusion has a 2 year head start. The 2013 Fusion will leapfrog the Camry next year and Ford will be ahead again. And the C-Max should also give the Prius a run for its money on the smaller lower end.
  • dchevdchev Member Posts: 38
    Your statement is called a speculation. Nobody knows how good the gas millage of next Ford Fusion Hybrid will be.
    If they manage to get better gas millage, well, it would be great for all customers, but right now we do not have any information.
    It is great that Toyota was able to imrove the gas millage of Camry Hybrid by 9 MPG. I believe that Camry Hybrid is the best Camry among all different Camry models.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It's not just speculation - it's information from insiders that say the new FFH will make a big jump in fuel economy with Ford's generation III hybrid system. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    2 more mpg is better...right? Thousands less in price is better....right?

    I'm talking about the 2012 Camry. Let's compare what is available right now as that is what I was talking about. When the new Fusion Hybrid gets here than we can compare but right now the current Fusion Hybrid is behind. And I think Toyota has a lot longer successful history with hybrid tech than Ford has via the Prius if I'm not mistaken.

    If the Ford leapfrogs the Camry in the future I will readily admit it as I have no vested interest other than for discussion sake. You seem to have a hard time dealing with the here and now. Fusion Hybrid WAS better than the Camry Hybrid but the Camry has in your words leapfrogged the Fusion. Just accept for it for now.
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