Midsize Sedans 2.0

[Deleted User] · February 2013

I wouldn't mind checking out the whatever is selling the best, and the 2.5 would be the right engine to compare the Maz6, Accord, and Optima EX $25k models.

On the Mazda I want to drive the 2.5i Touring of course. I need to see how much black plastic is in it compared to mine. I like the Instrument panel on the Mazda in the pictures. I really want to see if I like the way it looks in person too. Not sold on the grill.

As I have said before a family member works for Mazda so I will just go over there and ask for one for the day.

explorerx4 · February 2013

I think it's going to be a great car. Before that I test drove the AWD version of the same car, and it felt sluggish. They probably take a long time to break in.
I had a 07 Fusion AWD until a couple of years ago and it was the same way.

puppybone69 · February 2013

You will absolutely love it, once the engine is broken in, and you can start really driving it. I just got mine past the 1000 mile mark, and now that I can fully experience what it can do, I just love it even more and am finding more excuses to drive it more aggressively. Its usual quiet purring becomes a very satisfying growl when you gun it and kick the turbo boost in! I was just driving it like grandpa going to church, just waiting to get it past the green light for going balls out, and finding out what it's capable of, and now that I know, it's a total blast!

[Deleted User] · February 2013

I went over to Mazda. Drove it, loved it. It was fully loaded and the fit/finish was excellent. I was very lucky to get any seat time at all, and what I did get was in Tyson's Corner gridlock. I hate driving there.

I got her up to 50 mph, and did a few full throttle stoplight to stoplight acceleration runs, and there is good power down low. I did notice that there was a lot of black plastic, but it was of high quality.
The sticker was $28k, for the Touring i model with leather and heated seats. Don't count on negotiating a deal until dealers are fully stocked. The demo I drove was not for sale....it was there just to garner pre-orders. So, don't run over to Mazda with a wad of cash till April.

What everyone was really excited about was the new Skyactiv D - 2.2 liter Diesel, which will have 175 HP and 310 lb ft torque. Now, what is really cool is that it has a 14.1 compression ratio (super low for a compression burn engine), so it will rev more like a gas engine.

The bottom line is that the new diesel will finally enable Mazda to wage war with Americas only successful line of Diesel compact and mid-size sedan products.... Volkswagen TDI .

fury63 · February 2013

Well I was recently contacted by a Ford customer service representative who firmly explained to me through two phone conversations that my understanding of a 16.5 gallon tank holding 16.5 gallons is wrong and that filling to 12 gallons when the fuel light comes on is what it was designed for and what I should expect. She explained that there is 1 gallon reserved for vapor (huh?) and 2 gallons of reserve. She was so incredulous that I would question this issue that she didn't bother to notice that 12+2+1 still comes up 1.5 gallons short of the published capacity but what the heck do I know? Perhaps Ford should start using the term "usable capacity" in their specifications. In the next model year, they are going to have a back seat with the capacity to fit four people but you will only be able to actually fit two. The upside is you'll actually be able to prove or disprove this before you leave the dealership.

While this may seem trivial to some, if you drive long distances it becomes a nuisance - especially in the northern plain states where there is a lot of empty space. I've lost close to 1/3 of travel range for a tank of gas because of this compared to what I previously drove (and still considered buying another of).

And to those who use a relatively current iPhone (4, 4S - can't speak to 5 but it runs the same iOS) and are thinking about using Sync - forget it. My $50 Plantronics M50 Bluetooth earpiece connects to the iPhone in seconds and is rock solid with answering and ending calls. Pairing the iPhone with Sync creates a lot of lag that interferes with most everything else Sync does. Not having the iPhone paired with Sync allows the Sync system to operate extremely well but you of course lose one of the things you maybe purchased the car for - hands-free/device-free Bluetooth. Why they can't provide the equivalent functionality I have in the tiny Bluetooth earpiece in the very impressive Sync system is beyond me.

Rant off :mad:

dudleyr · February 2013

You can keep driving after the light comes on. My accord light comes on with about 3.5 gallons left. I can still drive 100 miles then fill up and put in 16 or so gallons on a 17.1 gallon tank. Best tank is 670 miles on my 2007.

Have not had my 2013 out on a highway trip yet but it is getting better mpg than the '07 on similar trips. Should be able to hit 700 miles.

m6user · February 2013

While this may seem trivial to some, if you drive long distances it becomes a nuisance - especially in the northern plain states where there is a lot of empty space.

I hear ya. One of the things I look for when doing comparisons for a future purchase is range on a tank. This is for two reasons. One, like you, I like to fill up less frequently when on a trip of length. Two, the fewer number of times I have to fill up in the dead of winter the better. Seems all the manufacturers have reduced their tank size. I'm sure it's to save a few pounds which probably equates to .05 better mpg and they must figure since they have increased MPG overall that people won't care because, after all, they are still getting the same supposed range as before. For awhile the Altima still kept it's 20 gal tank and could get 34-35 on the hwy. That was some range. Now I see they have reduced to tank size to 18 or less.

I agree that it would be nice if there was a "usable capacity" amount that could be referenced. When they reserve 2 gals for this and a gal for that it affects a smaller capacity tank more than it affects a larger tank as a percentage.

akirby · February 2013

That's just because the engineers haven't identified the problem with the fuel tanks so there is nothing "official" to report yet. There is something wrong - either a baffle problem or the wrong tank. One person was getting 12 gallons and after replacing the tank was able to put in at least 14 gallons on E.

I have a 2013 Fusion with MFT and an iPhone 5 and have never had a single problem with the phone pairing or not pairing or messing up anything else. It's either a bad phone, bad software (3.5.1 is the latest version) or a bad APIM in the car. It's not a flaw with sync or MFT.

fury63 · February 2013

Thats encouraging to hear. I suppose I can try it with my wife's 4S to see if its a bad phone. But seeing how it works well with other Bluetooth devices (Plantronics & Jawbone) my guess is it isn't the phone. Kirby you seem tied into Ford, what do you recommend I do? My dealer doesn't seem too willing to dive into the BT issue. It becomes a finger pointing exercise. I appreciate the help.

Thanks.

fury63 · February 2013

Ford recommended I do not drive far after the light comes on. That's when we got into the "well is there 2 more gallons in there or not?" discussion. I came away with the impression they are virtual.

dudleyr · February 2013

That is just fords lawyers talking. You can drive after the light comes on. They just don't want to tell you it is OK because you might then ignore the light and run out of gas on the highway, get hit and sue them. Kinda like the packing material that says "don't eat"

Having said that you don't want to run out of gas because that can hurt the fuel pump, but driving another 30-50 miles with the light on won't hurt anything.

fury63 · February 2013

I understand your point but it's probably easier to experiment with in the summer than in the middle of Winter in Minnesota.

m6user · February 2013

Not easier.....smarter.

I'd be interested in what your owner's manual says about what to do when the light comes on. It probably says that "you should fuel at your earliest convenience" or something like that. Maybe it gives some more detail which would be interesting to see.

akirby · February 2013

I'm not tied to Ford but first try unpairing the phone. Delete Sync from the phone and vice versa. power the phone off and back on. Do a master reset, pull the sync fuse or pull the negative battery cable to reset MFT. Then repair the phone and try again. If it still has problems try another phone. If both phones have problems check the software version on syncmyride.com and update that if necessary (you can do that yourself). If all that fails then you probably have a bad APIM - ask the dealer to change it.

jaxs1 · February 2013

The videos suggest the cars have serious safety problems.

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c2#/video/us/2013/02/27/dnt-teen-out-of-control- -car.wfaa

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2012/05/16/lklv-hancocks-hyundai.cnn

Sounds like what was happening with Toyotas in 2010.

scwmcan · March 2013

What you mean most likely the press making a big deal out of pedal misapplication ( joking haven't looked at the videos or read anything about it yet, will post a real comment when I do).

imidazol97 · March 2013

After listening to the toyota problems defended in the past, sarcasm wins:

Toyota folks claim there were no problems with toyota vehicles--it was all elderly people who didn't know the difference between the brake and accelerator pedal, or a sticking accelerator pedal due to someone else's fault not toyota's, or floor pmats in the wrong place. Couldn't have been anything wrong with computer system that runs things.

Same must be true here for Hyundai?

jaxs1 · March 2013

A woman driving a Kia (related to Hyundai) says the gas pedal is stuck and cannot figure out how to get the shifter in neutral or power off the engine.
Another high speed runaway vehicle.
I wonder if this is all related to some defect or just a coincidence?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovRu_a3-p8E

benjaminh · March 2013

thanks to tsx at vtec.net for these figures:

Camry 31,270 -5.7%
Accord 27,999 +40.9%; PHEV 17
Fusion 27,875 +28%
Altima 27,725 -15.9%
Sonata 16,007
Malibu 14,817 -25.9%
Optima 13,195
200 11,446 +18%
Avenger 9,980 +52%
Passat 7,532 -8%
Legacy 3,745 +3.60%
Mazda6 2,702 -47%

benjaminh · March 2013

between Accord, Fusion, and Altima for 2nd place.

And the brutal shoot-out for sales continues....The winner: the customer. The best midsize cars ever at very competitive prices.

Big surge by Fusion. I think Ford wants to pass the Accord, but I don't think Honda will give up without a fight. The Camry slumps, but is still comfortably ahead for now.

Surprising fall for VW's Passat. What's going on there? I guess the old tech low mpg/low power base engine caught up with it? The often last-place rated Malibu also seems to be sinking.

tundradweller1 · March 2013

Done with all the research and test driving. Ordered a 2014 Mazda 6 Sport with auto.
Candy apple red, Bam......

trusso69 · March 2013

REF: 17649
I saw your baby at my local dealer a few weeks ago:
http://www.jeffschmittmazda.com/2014-Mazda-MAZDA6-i-Sport-Beavercreek-OH/vd/1335- - 1872

It was just off the truck so the extra $300 red paint job didn't look so good. Looks much better now that they cleaned her up. What are you paying for it?
msrp 23590

backy · March 2013

Actually, 2nd place is taken by Hyundai/Kia.

tundradweller1 · March 2013

Got it at invoice on the S-plan. A friend bought the Touring in silver. Personally didn't care for the pleather interior nor did I want 19" wheels. I really was going to buy it in reflex blue but when I saw it in person it was too slate colored for my tastes.

[Deleted User] · March 2013

Ford called you to explain the operation of a gas tank??? (I am laughing really hard about your post...with you; not at you).

The gas tank issue sounds complicated. Maybe it's in the manual under My-Fords-Tank?

There are just so many things wrong about that. Almost as complicated as My Ford Touch, which if operated at speed could result in: My Fords Totaled.

Don't want to continue having issues? Then you can look into the latest acronym, My-Fords-Traded. :P

[Deleted User] · March 2013

I saw a sport V6 in reflex blue and thought it looked awesome. I very much liked the 19" wheels. :confuse:

backy · March 2013

Saw an ad in my local paper yesterday for a 200 Limited V6, under $20k. Seemed pretty loaded with leather etc., and has one of Chrysler's best engines. The 200 isn't that well regarded in the mid-sized class (as in "last", with cousin Avenger), but since its refresh last year the looks inside and out aren't too bad, so if someone really wants that V6 feel, this might be the cheapest way to get it in a new car.

m6user · March 2013

Don't think you saw a 2014 V6. They aren't making them.

explorerx4 · March 2013

My Ford touch is not that complicated, so obviously you have never used it.
There are some functional issues, but the good thing about software is that it can be improved without 'throwing out the baby with the bath water'.

[Deleted User] · March 2013

I looked into it. The new Honda Accord Sport has dual exhaust and 18" alloys, and is 4cyl. Easy to mistake for a V6. It is even more odd that the bigger wheels are not standard on the V6 EX-L or the Touring.... Making it very hard to spot the higher end models visually.

tundradweller1 · March 2013

Once I parked it next to a soul red model that settled the color decision. Black interior.
The 19's look cool but I drive in allot of snow in the winter. I do not want to buy dedicated rims and tires like we had to for the wifes Sonata. At least they are both alloy rims.
I'm a minority on the subject of not wanting a V-6. Fuel economy is a factor with all the driving I do. Still waiting to hear back on delivery......

[Deleted User] · March 2013

I did not see 19" wheels offered on the Accord in any trim or package. The full zoot V6 coupe only offeres 18" alloys. However, in other Accord news I am now convinced that all V6 Accords are capable of sub-6 second 0-60 times. The coupe was long-term tested by C/D, and they were able to achieve 5.5 seconds with the automatic version. The more I see the new Accord, the more I like it.

fury63 · March 2013

Take those two issues away and it's a really sweet ride. I hope the tank is addressed soon. I'm leasing this. For the number of miles I put on and what my company gives me it works out better than buying.

tundradweller1 · March 2013

Sorry, I was referring to the 2014 Mazda 6 Touring/ GT with 19". The I Sport has 17's
The Accords have 16's on the LX, 18's on the Sport and 17's on the EX & Coupe. I drove both the Honda LX and Sport. While they handled surprisingly well for Accords the Mazda was better overall. Personally I find the styling still says "grocery getter" compared to the Mazda. Which in reality is what all the four door sedans are.

marcus216 · March 2013

I just purchased a new 2013 Honda Accord EXL V6. My lease was up on my 2010 Acura TL My plan was to lease another TL until I saw and drove the new Accord. The new model is light years better than the outgoing Accord model on every level. It actually rivals my 2010 TL with a nicer interior, more back seat room, bigger trunk, much better gas mileage, and tech gizmos missing from the TL. And I got all this for about $26,500 and 1.9% financing from Honda. At that price, I bought the car and passed on leasing. Now the TL was a handling dream and the Accord cannot compete with that, but the Accord handles very capably and I will gladly trade some handling for the ultra smooth ride and significantly better gas mileage. The new class of midsize sedans from the mainstream manufacturers now rival entry level luxury sedans, in my humble opinion, especially the interiors. Why pay $40k to $50k for luxury sedans that don't seem that much more upscale than many of the normal family sedans?

akirby · March 2013

The new class of midsize sedans from the mainstream manufacturers now rival entry level luxury sedans

Indeed. My 2013 Fusion Titanium has Adaptive Cruise Control, Collision warning, Blind spot detection, cross traffic alert, MyFordtouch, backup camera, electronic parking brake, selectshift manual shift capability, automatic wipers, automatic headlamp dimming, Navigation, sirius travel link, sat radio, heated seats, intelligent access with push button start, remote start and 19" wheels.

Amazing.

Kirstie_H · March 2013

A reporter would like to speak to a recent car buyer who considered a 2013 Toyota Camry, but ultimately went with either 2013 Honda Accord of 2013 Ford Fusion. If you fit this description, and would like to discuss the appeal of either of those cars versus the Toyota model, please send your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than noon Pacific, Tuesday, 3/5/13.

[Deleted User] · March 2013

After buying a drop-in K&N filter for my Optima 2.4 today, I found some dyno testing done by K&N on the Sonata/Optima 2.4 and on the VW 2.0T motor. Both engines are rated at 200 HP, and Torque is (reasonably) similar as well. However, I found a HUGE discrepancy in dyno results.

The dyno testing done by K&N on a 2011 Sonata 2.4,Shows wayyy less horsepower than 200. More like 139 HP! Also, 149 lb-ft torque instead of 186. See it here:

http://www.knfilters.com/dynocharts/69-5301_dyno.pdf

Now, I assumed that this is supposed to be at the wheels, until I saw the dyno results on the 2012 VW 2.0T. It showed 179HP and 194 lb-ft. See it here:

http://www.knfilters.com/dynocharts/69-9504_dyno.pdf

How is this possible? Hyundai very recently got busted for over estimating fuel economy figures, and I can tell you that I am struggling to get more than 22mpg on my 12 Opt EX 2.4. Could they also be exaggerating the output specs? :confuse: :mad: It sure looks like it here. A fluke?

*** These tests were done to show before/after horsepower on the full cold air intake system- ($200 to $400). I just purchased the drop in filter-charger. It was $40 on eBay, including shipping.

crkyolfrt · March 2013

Should have saved your money cski. Although, admittedly if you Google K&N air filter pros and cons, there are probably going to be as many hits as an oil thread.

I do not use them, because I look at in two ways (although I confess I first derived my opinion when bike racing so..the application on performance bikes) but the two reasons are this: first, any filter media that lets more air in (that's how they get the higher hp and tq numbers) lets more dirt in. It really is as simple as that. But I'll be backing back outta here before replying to the probable deluge of posters wanting to argue it..like I say, Google will reveal. I say, use your own brain and power of reasoning.

Second reason, is that the design and cubic inch area of air boxes are quite specifically designed to optimize intake air flow, maximize FE and exploit hp and torque. If you doubt it, just remember that exhaust manifold design (headers in a perfect world) all contribute to maximize the engine's abilities and if how air being handled can be tuned on the exhaust side of things, the same holds true for intake air. Do you really think that K&N can custom design a filter pefectly to maximize each vehicle they can supply for from an air management engineering aspect? No..they just make and sell what fits..

And the biggest problem is a consumer too easily falling in to the buy it/replace and forget it trap. It's a novelty in the beginning, but very maintenance hungry ongoing after. And messy. If you are diligent and re oil correctly etc etc and when you should, then you might have at least a little less damaging end results than the vast majority of enthusiasts that get hooked on the K&N bug. Good luck, but if you haven't installed it yet, take it back and get your money back....unless you really do plan to be diligent forever.

Every used car/bike I ever consider buying is ruled out as soon as I pop the hood and check the air filter. Keep in mind that for track use, a K&N can perform as an air filter not too bad because it is at least a controlled environment. There is less dust for starters, and the debris that is there..rubber rollers, usually do get trapped well and don't prematurely clog the filter like road dust dirt does, and can be tapped out after a race..

[Deleted User] · March 2013

Actually, you are right! If you combine the Optima and the Sonata, then it equals 29,150 units sold. The $ all goes to Mr. Hyundai!

[Deleted User] · March 2013

The filters are approved by the manufacturer, and does not void the warranty. Also, if you can't already tell by my posts, I am as diligent as any car nut could ever be!

crkyolfrt · March 2013

The filters are approved by the manufacturer, and does not void the warranty.

Well, the primary reason for this is that as the filter clogs, it actually starts to filter better, but up to the point that other issues will present themselves, reduced power and FE, and eventually the filter gets addressed.

Ya, I can see you probably being diligent..still doesn't mean that the air flow PATTERN going thru your new K&N is superior to the pattern it takes through the OEM filter. And it is a scale that changes. I wish I could show you the number of airboxes I have serviced on bikes that have patterns of oiled dust (on the clean side) on boxes that always used OEM filters and then after K&N. Although I suspect pics wouldn't make a believer outta you either..

Carry on..I knew it was probably going to be a wasted post going in, but thought maybe a non-regular lurker might read it and hopefully they will benefit.

ivan_99 · March 2013

The dyno testing done by K&N on a 2011 Sonata 2.4,Shows wayyy less horsepower than 200. More like 139 HP! Also, 149 lb-ft torque instead of 186.

Now, I assumed that this is supposed to be at the wheels, until I saw the dyno results on the 2012 VW 2.0T. It showed 179HP and 194 lb-ft.

I'm not a mechanic or engineer...so I'm probably just making this up...

I've heard (from some where) that typically there is a 15% loss from the published bhp figure to the actual number produced by the dyno. Each dyno is different so you really need to compare readings from the same dyno.

So the Sonata at 200 should read 170 hp on the dyno (200 - 15%).

The results from a dyno are typically 'corrected' for temp/altitude etc.

Hyundai has previously been 'caught' with errors in their HP figures...so who knows; that does seem a bit low to me.

I believe the VW 2.0T is know to be underrated by VW; that the actual 'real' number, such as as 179 at the wheels, would corroborate.

I agree with the previous post regarding K&N filters. Unless you're "on it" all the time you're wasting your money. Plus...the only real benefits I've ever seen are when you've made other changes to the vehicle such as engine, boost, exhaust, etc. I would expect you'd get 1-2 hp extra at best...maybe at peak RPM too... So unless you're racing it (then I'd suggest the turbo) I don't think you'll notice it at all.

dudleyr · March 2013

No such thing as a free lunch. If more useable hp couple be found for a just a few bucks the manuf. would do it in the first place.

Regarding hp numbers. I don't think Hyundai under rated. There is usually quite a large loss going from the engine to the dyno. - especially in an automatic. The VW may have been a manual (which puts more power down) and the VW 2.0 is notorious for being under rated. They don't want to compete with Audi so they under rate the engine for VW applications.

akirby · March 2013

Get oil on the MAF sensor and see if the mfr will replace it for you.

Kirstie_H · March 2013

A reporter would like to speak to a recent car buyer who purchased a 2013 Ford Fusion after owning a Honda Accord, Toyota Camry or another car from a Japanese brand. If you would like to share your story, please send your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than Tuesday, 3/5/13 at 3 p.m. PT/6 p.m. ET.

xrunner2 · March 2013

Latest issue of CR, April 2013, has Honda Accord at the top of mid-size sedans. This has been going on for about 3 decades. Will the American brands ever catch up, much less surpass, the Honda? Waiting, waiting, waiting. The Japanese have the superior engineering and reliability. Will the American brands, and the Italian/American brand, ever, ever catch up, surpass?

dieselone · March 2013

My dad's 09 Accord v6 has basically been a disaster. Honda is basically going to rebuild his engine for the second time in the past 12 months free of charge. He has about 90k miles on it w/o an extended warranty. He started having misfire issues at around 60k miles and Honda has only charged him $100 for the numerous repairs and has always provided a rental car.

This is his first non-domestic and he is just floored by how well Honda has handled his issues. He dropped his car off at the dealer on Monday due to the misfire issue and flashing CE light. Within an hour after dropping it off, an engineer from Honda USA was on the phone with him apologizing for the problems and explained how they were going to fix it. He never received that kind of service with Ford.

I'm willing to bet my dad will by another Honda despite the serious engine trouble he's been having with his Accord.

The new Accord really looks nice. I saw an Accord Sport the other day and thought it had a presence about it that the Accord has lacked for a long time. Good performance, good fuel economy, and decent looks inside and out. It probably would be my first choice in the family sedan segment.

xrunner2 · March 2013

This is his first non-domestic and he is just floored by how well Honda has handled his issues.

Sorry to hear about your dad's issues, but apparently Honda has stepped up, as is usual. More than some domestic brands have done when for example car owners reported extraordinary oil consumption on their cars, such as Cadillac CTS.

I was "blown away" when we started buying Hondas in 1984. Their superior engineering and low tolerances in engine parts made for incredibly low oil consumption. Have had numerous Honda and Acura cars over 3 decades and all of them had very, very low oil consumption/burning between oil changes. Outstanding engineering not available with American brands.

dieselone · March 2013

It's obvious overall how well my dad's '09 Accord EX-L v6 is built. It definitely has a level of refinement not replicated in most vehicles in that class. Probably my only complaint would be road noise, it just isn't very quiet. The powertrain is exceptionally smooth and refined. And everything feels tight which I really like.

The problems with his engine originated with oil consumption. Which from the little research I've done could be related to the VCM system. He always took it to the same dealer for all oil changes and service. IIRC, he had an oil change around 60k. A few weeks later it started running rough and a low oil light came on. He took it to the dealer and it basically used all of its oil within 1k miles and lost compression in cylinder 3 or 5 (can't remember). That was the first tear down and partial rebuild. That was 30k miles and 12 months ago. About a month ago it started all over again. It started misfiring again with flashing CE light. Took it to the dealer and it had very little oil. They reset the ECM and advised to start using synthetic oil. That worked until this past weekend when it started missing and the CE light was flashing again.

I haven't talked to my dad, but my mom said they ordered a new new engine block. So maybe they're replacing the entire short block, I don't know for sure, but from what my mom said, it will be nearly a complete tear down. From what both of my parents have said, Honda's customer service has been exceptional and far beyond anything they've experienced with Ford or GM.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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