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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited June 2013
    Looks like Nissan might be having some start-up quality problems with the new Altima. The average consumer rating for the Altima at Edmunds.com at 3.9 is lower than for other midsize cars. For instance, the Passat has a 4.7, the Mazda6 a 4.8, etc. Some customers have posted some quite negative reviews of their new Altimas. Others, however, seem happy with their Altimas. I imagine Nissan will get it sorted out soon. Makes for interesting reading, anyway....
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited June 2013
    Camry has got to be relying heavily on fleet sales to achieve those figures. The car has not been rated well by almost everyone, and even the Head of the Insurance Institute of America said the Camry earned poor crash ratings and that their engineers lot of work to do in order to catch up to competitors like the Honda Accord. I guess people feel "safe" buying them. I wonder what the percentages are for male/female sales and how old Toyota's median age buyer is. I get that their product is viewed as durable/reliable...and I guess that is enough for a lot of folks.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >I get that their product is viewed as durable/reliable...and I guess that is enough for a lot of folks.

    A lot of people go by what they hear. That's why long standing opinions are so hard to overcome with new facts. If someone keeps badmouthing a car brand or company, that takes a long time to go away. When some keep goodmouthing an undeserving company, some buyers just keep on buying because Maude at cards said she loves her Camry and has had almost now trouble with it, e.g..

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    Camry has good safety ratings overall. The 2012 version and up does worse at the new test because it didn't exist at the time. new 2013 Altimas and Accords were designed with this specific test in mind. Overall Camry is an extremely reliable car. It isn't my cup of tea, but the fact is that a huge swath of the buying public loves them. Many of them love them because they are repeat buyers. You can't get those kinds of sales records on anecdotal evidence alone.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    Back in 2007, which I think is the high water mark for Camry sales, the Fusion and Sonata where selling at about 12,000 per month.
    The mid size market has grown, but the the additional market share has gone to the Camry competitors.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Of the top 5 in the midsize car markets there are 3 Japanese makes, 1 Korean, and 1 American. But it's a little ironic that the only American in the top 5, the Fusion, is made in Mexico. Toyota has a huge factory in KY, Honda a huge factory in OH, Nissan a huge factory in TN, and Hyundai a huge factory in AL, making all of these cars more "American" than the Ford. Even when Ford starts making more Fusions in Michigan, 2 out of 3 of Fusions will still be coming from Mexico. I support free trade, and feel positively about Mexico and how well they are doing with car production, including with the Japanese makes, but I just think it's interesting...

    Oh, #6, the Malibu, is also made in the USA in KS.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    edited June 2013
    Most companies align their business model according to how they can make the most profit.
    The Fusion is the 3rd highest selling Ford in the US.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    I had a 2011 Explorer AWD for about 2 years, traded it in for the Fusion.
    Averaged 22 mpg overall and 24+ was not uncommon on a long highway trip.
    The only time the tires spun was when I took it through some mud under power.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • ...and the Optima is made in West Point GA, along with the Sorrento. It is no accident that the Hyundai plant is in Montgomery AL, about 100 miles away from W. Point on I-85. Easy to share materials. etc.

    Ford is going to make Fusions in Flat Rock Michigan at the old plant they shared with Mazda, but they had to re-tool the whole plant for Fusion and and that takes time and $$$. $775 million to be exact. (Detroit Free Press). That's good news for thousands of existing employees, and over 1200 new hires.

    Thanks for investing in the Detroit area Ford. Thanks very much. :)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    One things that's amazing to me, is that now the KIA and Hyundai plants are both working virtually around the clock. They are working at 120% of capacity, or something like that.

    CSKI: You seem to be a good detective for info. By any chance can you find out how many people the KIA plant employs now? And what is the total number of vehicles it made last year?

    Usually for every employee actually at a car plant there are several working at smaller factories that are part of the supply chain making seats or whatever to go in the cars.

    All of these employees, of course, spend their money and there's a spillover or multiplier effect as other jobs are created.

    I've bought cars made in Japan and Germany, and I believe in free trade, but I prefer for my cars to be made in the USA.

    PS Saw an Optima the other day in black. That is a very nice looking car!
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited June 2013
    The following info was found on the official Kia of America web site; http://www.kmmgusa.com/

    "On Nov. 16, 2009, Kia Motors Manufacturing Georgia, Inc. (KMMG) began mass production of the 2011 Kia Sorento, the first vehicle produced at the brand new state-of-the-art facility in West Point, Ga.There were several important events leading up to that momentous day at Kia’s first North American automobile manufacturing plant including the announcement on March 13, 2006, that a Site Acquisition and Development Agreement had been signed between the State of Georgia and Kia Motors America (KMA), Kia’s sales and marketing headquarters in the United States, to bring the $1 billion plant to the 2,259-acre site in Georgia. This project is the largest in the state’s history.

    A grand opening ceremony was held at the plant on Feb. 26, 2010.

    Since then, the Kia Sorento has taken off as the most successful Kia vehicle of all-time in the U.S., leading the way with record-breaking sales since production began. This is a testament to the focus and pride each KMMG team member places on building a quality vehicle.

    KMMG has now hired more than 3,000 team members at its West Point location. When factoring in positions created at suppliers throughout the region, more than 10,000 jobs have been created in association with KMMG.

    In April of 2011, KMMG began a $100 million expansion project that would increase the plant’s capacity from 300,000 to more than 360,000 vehicles per year, starting in 2012.


    On Sept. 2, 2011, KMMG officially began mass production of its second Kia product, the 2012 Optima and now has three full shifts operating at the plant 24 hours a day/five days per week".

    In total, Kia built 1.6 million vehicles as of August 2012.

    I was following a top of the line 2013 Optima SX-L on a local road yesterday, and I noticed that he had removed "Optima" from the back of his car, and replaced the "KIA" emblem on the trunk with "K" badges. So, I had a feeling that he was on the enthusiast site. (www.optimaforums.com). At the light it turned out he was so we exchanged pleasantries. It really is a small world...after all!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I've got a 2013 Fusion and have experienced the same thing.
    Try experimenting with lowering various windows.
    I have a sunroof and usually drive with it cracked open and the right rear window down.
    The air gets sucked in the back window and swirls around to the left side and forward, then out the roof.
    It provides a nice breeze.


    I do the exact same thing in my '09 Sonata GLS V6 with a sunroof. Great breeze!
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    One of those Altimas was mine...I bought a 2.5 SV in May...
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    Yes, the called me back saying they would be willing to work with me, after all, but it was too late. I'm very happy with the Altima. The Intelligent Key and satellite radio are used every day--and I would have had neither one of them in the Accord LX.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    SV is a higher trim level than the Accord LX. Comparable to SV on the Accord would be the EX, and those features are included. Enjoy your Altima; it's a great car.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
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    Share your vehicle reviews

  • Oh yeah. I love walking out of the dealership until they cave in! Also, I feel the same way about my Satellite radio, Bluetooth, Pandora, start button, and leather. Enjoy your Altima. I love the way it looks from the side and the back. let me now how the CVT feels over like the next 5,000 miles.

    I have to admit that I have not been inside a new Accord in person, but in the detailed pictures I have seen, it looks like a lot of car for $22,470 (LX) or 24, 490. (Sport). Of course, I would be all over the Sport if I lived in an area where the 6 speed stick would be more appropriate. I am almost glad it wasn't available when I bought the Optima because I would have agonized over the decision!!
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    cski: Good info! Thanks++ West Point, Georgia is letting the good times roll, in very small part thanks to you....
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited June 2013
    I found out that the last phase of the negotiations for the deal between the state of GA and the president of Kia were done in a bar on cocktail napkins, passed back and forth with figures on them, until both parties agreed. So many great things have been done that way, the old fashioned way, by sitting down and working things out face to face.

    I think we need to keep that in mind in an increasingly technical world, that a handshake means something, and honoring that handshake means something more. Honesty and keeping ones word.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    cski: Great story. Thanks for sharing that. What you say is true.

    It's certainly been a win-win for Georgia and KIA.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • albanytimalbanytim Member Posts: 18
    Sorry to nitpick, but every time I see "KIA" I think "Killed in Action". "Kia" is the car company.
  • ral2167ral2167 Member Posts: 791
    test drove accord today-- ex-l-- nice enough car but disappointed in the radio-- only 12 presets for XM? you got to be kidding me. plus their fancy "blind spot" passenger side camera is a lot of flash bu that's about it-- and the convex mirror on driver side is cheap as a blind spot monitor-- - they should just have a light shine on or near each mirror like most blind spot technologies have (camry, mazda 6, altima). i do like the driver side seat memory on the ex-l-- i suspect upper trim camry's will get this in a year or so. and it drives nice. but overall, those 12 presets on the XM has me shaking my head.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited June 2013
    LOL. My KIA was killed in action today! :sick: Tire blew out on really ragged pavement. I didn't even try to use the "tire mobility kit" which is essentially (well ACTUALLY) is a fancy can of fix-a-flat and a compressor. Optima LX and EX do not have spares (in an all out effort to increase MPG).

    Progressive roadside assistance was awesome guys. Flatbed driver dropped me off at my door after waiting for me to fill out paperwork at the shop. I called his boss and put in a good word for him.

    NTB/Merchants does not have my OEM tires in stock, so I had to order them.

    PS: The tow truck driver said he tows more hybrids than any other type of modern sedan.
  • EX Optima has 24 Sirius presets.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    You know what matters to you. Did you drive on a freeway though? That's where you really appreciate the right turn camera. I am liking it more and more the longer I drive mine. Radio presets aren't a big deal to me, but I loved the power driver AND passenger seats. We sure have a lot of choices now.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    My Fusion has 18 Sat radio presets and I use maybe 10.
    It took me a couple of months before I tuned to FM and realized I had not set anything.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    My Altima also has 18 presets. I have all 18 set; but, I only listen to 9 or 10 of them with any regularity. I haven't listened to FM radio in weeks.
  • ral2167ral2167 Member Posts: 791
    Don't know how accord can only have 12 presents for XM radio-- very disappointing. Camry has the best radio in that you can have 36 presents and have as many AM/FM/XM as you want-- you can have an AM station on one preset, and an XM on the next one-- you don't need to switch to an XM band or an AM band. Wish all radios were like that,
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    How could you possibly find 36 stations worth listening to on FM/AM/XM?
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    If you do happen to save 36 stations...

    Then all you need to do is set your auto-scan on...and search through all your stations every 10 seconds. In 6 minutes you're done and can start from the top again since you've forgotten anything worth listening to; and more than likely what you did find interesting has already ended.

    This way you can have a perpetual scan where you do not need to commit to any channel...
  • mani_omani_o Member Posts: 6
    I'm planning on buying a Camry se this fall. And I've done my research for the last three months. It does seem that Toyota has a better reliability history than Honda, Mazda, Hyundai, and Kia. You don't know how much I wish Toyota would step up the Camry design, they must have their head up their *blank* but After test driving the 2013 Optima the headrests in the seats Would not even allow me to sit up straight. The 2013 Accord, Known for having transmission issues, is already having problems with their CVT. Most reviews say the 2013 sonata does not have too many issues but the 100 little things that never really brake but wish they would just so the dealer would fix them. The 2013 Altima has a sucky CVT and is a first-year car with issues that need to be worked out. The 2013 Mazda 6 No one is buying even though it is the sexiest car. With so many First year models for 2013 you only have a few options for a midsize car if you're seeking top reliability. The 2013 Camry has a comfortable nice interior, great sound system, good handling, top reliability, The camry se can be had for about 22 grand. If you're trying to keep your car for the next 10 years its a very safe bet. If your leasing your car feel free to get in any car you want because All of these cars last at least three years. When the pros review cars they're reviewing how they are performing that very moment, not five years down the line when your car is falling apart.
  • mani_omani_o Member Posts: 6
    I don't understand CR any more. How can they predict first year cars reliabilty. The Accord has had major transmission issues in the past yet they best every other car as top pick because they are hoping their new power train will be better??
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Since when does a Camry have a nice interior and good handling?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited June 2013
    Quote "Most reviews say the 2013 sonata does not have too many issues but the 100 little things that never really brake but wish they would just so the dealer would fix them".

    Huh?

    As I have said before, mid size sedan manufacturers try to design for the buyer who wants it to be the jack of all trades. Difficult market.
  • No doubt. I listen to only two. My mother likes the Elvis channel. Uggghh (shuddering).

    Boneyard and Hair Nation are my faves.
  • uga91uga91 Member Posts: 1,065
    We have a 2012 Sienna and you can preset AM, FM and XM one after the other--that is a nice radio feature.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Interiors weren't bad in the 90s. They had high quality seas of plastic and vinyl :shades: . Nowadays, it's a bit more playskool as designed by committee looking.

    Now.. handling? What handling?
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Sucks about the blowout..and having to order. Hope the rim is ok..

    Interesting about the tow truck driver's comment about hybrids. Sounds like he meant all hybrids (including the apparently very reliable Prius) or do you think he was referring to the Optima Hybrid?
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    edited June 2013
    This question will reveal how little I know about satellite radio. Two questions actually, although the second one is tough cuz it's one of those ones where it is open to interpretation of just how good is good..

    When you use XM or whatever, and you want to listen to..let's say Johnny Winter: Serious Business. Or dial up Wayne Hancock: Tulsa..do you have a menu where you choose alphabetically, or punch it in letter by letter, or are you restricted to, like a radio stn that features songs that they decide falls into that type of music category? If it is the latter (which I think it is and is why I have never gotten excited about radio you pay to listen to without getting a choice in what you listen to) then the odds of you finding a stn that actually plays Johnny Winter, or even knows who Wayne Hancock is, will be very poor indeed. Out of curiosity have any of you who have sat radio, EVER heard either one of those artists on the radio? Johnny Winter is blues rock like Jimi Hendrix and Kenny Wayne Shepherd. Wayne Hancock is a lot like Hank Williams Sr with a mix of Hank III (Shelton Williams, Hank Sr's grandson) thrown in.

    Second question is about sound quality distortion at loud sound levels. I once listened to a friends GPS that he dubbed into the sound system in my 03 Matrix. I forget how it was done, but was a portable setup. So the GPS had what I guess was an MP3 memory, and believe me, there was SERIOUS sound quality loss once it made it to the cars speakers. Is sat radio like that, or is it EXACTLY as clear and capable of the same song as if you had inserted a CD? Question open to cski especially, cuz I think he loves his music, although not sure how loud he plays it, and everyone of course..

    BTW, same question if you plug an iPod or some other USB device in. Are some combinations more distortion free than others, or are they all universally so good there is no perceptible difference than if you had put a CD in..and again, I'm talking at loud volumes which should reveal any weakness the best.. Even if clear, is the db (sound volume) drop if on sat radio or iPod, requiring you to raise the volume control more than if you had a CD in?
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited June 2013
    Camry failed the small offset crash test, which is a common type of crash. It was the only midize car to fail, aside from the Prius and a Lexus. Pattern? Check out the IIHS video posted in youtube or a few pages above.

    Also, Camry is in my opinion the worst looking car in the entire midsize segment.

    Handling is also about at the bottom according to most car magazines.

    Bang for the buck? Yes. To somewhat misquote Princess Leia: "If bang for the buck is what you care about, that's what you shall receive."

    There's really no bad choice to be made at this point when it comes to midsize, but Camry would be about last on my personal list.

    Everyone gets to make their own choice and have their own favorites. It's a free country!+++
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    This a new test and few cars have been subjected to it yet. Only those redesigned this year will be able to pass it. It is not a reason to avoid the Camry. There are others of course!
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    XM/Sirius has specific channels that you can tune to and that broadcast all the time just like FM. Hits1, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, Margaritaville, etc.

    Digital music (satellite, mp3) is by definition compressed. MP3s have different bitrate settings (128K vs. 192K vs. 256k etc.). The higher the bitrate the better the sound (and more storage required). Some people can't tell much difference and some people claim it's night and day.

    With satellite there is another compression layer. There is limited bandwidth on the satellites so they compress the signal even further to fit more channels in. You also have the quality of the original recording which affects final sound especially on 60s and 70s music.

    How it sounds depends on your stereo, the original recording quality and the source and bitrate.

    Audio CDs are the least compressed usually, followed by analog FM, digital FM (HD Radio) and XM/Sirius. MP3s could be anywhere in between depending on bitrate. The quality of the device is also a factor - ipod vs. cheap mp3 players or gps.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    XM also has stations dedicated to one artist, like E Street Radio, as well as every Major League Baseball game. Lots of great stuff you can't get on regular radio. It's a much wider range of news, sports and music.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited June 2013
    suydam wrote: "This a new test and few cars have been subjected to it yet. Only those redesigned this year will be able to pass it. It is not a reason to avoid the Camry. There are others of course! "

    I don't think you're quite right about a few things. The test isn't that new, a lot of cars at this point have been tested, and most have passed. Only the Camry and Prius V were rated "Poor." If safety is a lower priority to you, then ignore the test. But if safety is a significant issue for you, you should probably chose one of the dozen or so midsize cars that passed this test.

    http://autos.jdpower.com/content/blog-post/NOdSoru/new-2013-midsize-family-car-c- - - - rash-test-ratings-issued-by-iihs.htm

    "....Among the midsize sedans, two models earned the highest rating of "Good" in the new small overlap test: the redesigned 2013 Honda Accord Sedan and the discontinued 2013 Suzuki Kizashi.

    Of the remaining 16 midsize sedans evaluated, 11 models received an "Acceptable" rating. They include the following models, which are rated as "Top Safety Pick+" models for 2013:

    2013 Chrysler 200
    2013 Dodge Avenger
    2013 Ford Fusion
    2013 Honda Accord Coupe
    2013 Kia Optima
    2013 Nissan Altima Sedan
    2013 Subaru Legacy
    2013 Subaru Outback
    2013 Volkswagen Passat

    The 2013 Mazda 6 and the 2013 Nissan Maxima also received an "Acceptable" rating in the new small overlap frontal impact test, but because their rear-impact protection ratings are "Marginal," they do not qualify for a "Top Safety Pick" rating in 2013.

    Three models received a "Marginal" rating in the new small overlap frontal impact test. They include the redesigned 2013 Chevrolet Malibu, 2013 Hyundai Sonata, and the 2013 Volkswagen Jetta Sedan. All three models retain their "Top Safety Pick" status for 2013, but do not qualify for the new "Top Safety Pick+" rating.

    The two models receiving a "Poor" rating include the Toyota Camry and Toyota Prius v. "Toyota engineers have a lot of work to do to match the performance of their competitors," Lund says.

    In the test for the Camry, the impact pushed the front left wheel into the driver's foot well, moving the parking brake mechanism into the driver's leg space. The windshield pillar bent, moving the instrument panel and steering column. As a result, the crash-test dummy's head glanced off of the driver air bag and, because the side curtain air bag does not extend far enough forward to offer protection, struck the dashboard....."
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited June 2013
    Toyota has said they will redesign and re-engineer their cars to pass this test. I imagine the 2014 Camry will pass just fine. And so if you want a Camry, waiting 4-5 months if that's practical might be the answer.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That's an old report. Since then, several other vehicles have earned the Top Safety Pick+ including the 2014 Mazda6.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    The Accord had transmission issues affecting a minor amount of Accords versus the millions made.

    They have since corrected those issues for the last 5 years or so at least.

    CR is spot-on.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    If MP3 is compressed at 256k, what would you guess a CD to be at? Let's say a newer type CD created in the last 10 years...or rather of only 10 year old music?

    You are saying that an iPod is much cleaner than the best MP3? or?

    This is all very good info. I appreciated your post a lot. Answered many questions/wonderments I have always had ever since the first MP3 type file came along. My nephew has created many digital files for DJ work. I have heard some at an outdoor party once, but not in an environment like your car or home where you can make a memory comparo. I have a feeling he must use a high bitrate...oh..I recall he was using an iPod docked to something else, a big mixer of some sort I think.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    When some keep goodmouthing an undeserving company, some buyers just keep on buying because Maude at cards said she loves her Camry and has had almost now trouble with it, e.g..

    If it was really that easy, all the bad undeserving companies out there would spend all their marketing dollars good-mouthing their vehicles.

    Maybe they do, but it doesn't seem to work as many companies have been bailed out recently, and some multiple times (Chrysler).
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Lossless audio bitrates typically run in the 500k to 1MB/second realm.

    IPOD's have Apple Lossless audio format, but I don't think I-tunes sells it. You can take your CD's and make apple lossless files though. Keeps about 99% of the quality, whereas in 256k I'd say your getting 80 to 90%.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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