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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Don't need extra sun/heat in Texas, nor to give up any headroom at 6'3"

    heh...same dimensions and location :) I hate sunroofs...just another way to bake in the heat. Head room...try driving a veloster with a sun roof :) my seat was leaned WAY back and my head was tilted horizontal. Neat little car (horribly under powered engine).
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,142
    Pretty nifty. You might post that in our Auto Parts Bargains discussion too:
    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f11c910/780

    It's not exactly an "auto part," but it's definitely a bargain at "free," and you never know when someone else might be in a similar situation and want/need it.

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  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    0-60 in 6 seconds is fine, but that isn't with the under 200 HP version :P
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    As for your bailout theory, keep in mind that those people could have merely set up a warranty fund for Americans instead of bailing out the companies.

    Great idea, and in fact GWB & BO did that, before the bailouts were even fully implemented or "official" yet.

    One should wonder why we didn't just do that, instead of the more expensive company wide bailouts. Same wonderment I have when someone says bailing out GM saved the suppliers. Wouldn't it have been much cheaper to let GM go under and simply bailout the little guys (suppliers) that needed it?

    You should wonder. Brings to mind the word outrageous again.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Am looking to cap things at 25k out-the-door once a deal is made. That'd put the purchase price in the 23k range; doable for an EX, but not really possible for an EX-L at this point in time. Plus, I would only ever consider leather if the car had ventilated seats. The fiance's Santa Fe has heated leather, but I hate them in the summertime.

    I have the pink unicorn of Sonatas; V6, cloth, popular equip package + moonroof. It's everything that's a must-have (moonroof, audio-controls on the wheel, leather-wheel, power seat, usb audio interface) and nothing that wasn't (navi, automatic climate controls, leather). Plus, it's really roomy for my 6'5" frame.

    I will probably drive it for a while. I've got 107k on it with no complaints. The other vehicle that really rings my bell right now is the Ram 1500 with Pentastar, 8-speed, and UConnect 8.4. Could I be any more scattered in my vehicle preferences?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    I wonder if the reason brakes need more frequent replacement isn't because Honda cheaped out, but perhaps because your 3,000 pound car of yesteryear is now a 3,600 pound car today. 20% more weight has got to be hard on the brakes, especially if you don't upgrade them for the additional weight.

    That was the problem with the transmissions, people who drove using all 240 horses from the 3.0 V6 in 2003 wore out transmissions that probably worked perfectly with the little 4-bangers of Honda's past. In fact, the 4-cylinder models did rate better than the V6 transmissions.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    At the same time, "normal" drivers seem to be a bunch of maniacs...

    Us "spirited" drivers prefer that term to the maniac label. I'm a spirited driver, and I understand that with that comes extra maintenance costs in the form of brake and tire wear. Wear items, and completely normal. Of course, if your driving style doesn't change and all of a sudden your brake pad life is halved; people are going to notice (Honda are you listening?).

    Added to that, Honda's don't really inspire spirited driving. They are great cars, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't until I got my Audi that I became an enthusiastic driver.

    I would hope most maniacs, OOPS, I mean spirited drivers would know this, and not complain. Also, if you car stops from 60 MPH to 0 MPH in 110 feet instead of 130 feet performance wise, you should expect that the pad might not last as long in exchange for that performance gain.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Yeah, EX, Sport, or even LX fits better with the 25k OTD goal.

    Since your Sonata has been so good to you why aren't you shopping that car? Ready for a change? I'm a big Honda fan, and think that the Accord is better than the Sonata in at least a few ways (visibility, handling, mpg, crash safety, etc.), but still I'm curious.

    Here's the discounted price of an 2013 EXL Accord at Crest Honda in Nashville. Looks like $25.4 + TTL

    Bodystyle:SedanDrivetrain:FWDEngine:2.4L I-4 cylTransmission:Continuously VariableCity MPG: 27.0 Hwy MPG: 36.0Ext. Color:Basque Red Pear…Int. Color:IvoryVIN:1HGCR2F8XDA196235Stock Number:DA196235Location: Crest Honda
    MSRP$28,785
    Dealer Discount$3,394
    True Price$25,391
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    I wonder if the reason brakes need more frequent replacement isn't because Honda cheaped out, but perhaps because your 3,000 pound car of yesteryear is now a 3,600 pound car today. 20% more weight has got to be hard on the brakes, especially if you don't upgrade them for the additional weight.

    That was the problem with the transmissions, people who drove using all 240 horses from the 3.0 V6 in 2003 wore out transmissions that probably worked perfectly with the little 4-bangers of Honda's past. In fact, the 4-cylinder models did rate better than the V6 transmissions.


    If Honda was the only company with a 3,600 pound car today or the only car with a V6 I would say you have a point.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    The urethane steering wheel was the only major turn-off. I'm spoiled by the nicer leather wheel in my current Sonata I suppose.

    After getting my hands on a leather wrapped steering wheel, I know that I can never go back to hard plastic.

    I'm not even a fan of leather, or leather seats, but a leather steering wheel is a must. I'm saddened by the fact the bean counters managed to get such a basic item left out on a top of the line EX model Accord.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    If Honda was the only company with a 3,600 pound car today or the only car with a V6 I would say you have a point.

    You have a point about the weight, but the point your trying to make about the V6 is falling on deaf ears. Not all V6's were created equal. Back in 2003, Honda's V6 was so far superior to other V6's at the time, it's not even funny. Even Honda's own V6 got upped by 20% more HP in 2003.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    Actually the weight is an issue for a lot of cars these days. The car makers want the brakes lighter and smaller to help with fuel economy, but they have more mass to move around. Should help that the 2013 Honda is lighter than the 2012. If you look around on other forums people complain about brakes wearing out faster than they used to.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    But he was saying that Honda isn't the only one with overweight cars these days, but yet not everyone has reports of short-lived OEM brake pads.

    A very minor issue in the grand scheme of things. I'd rather replace my Honda's brakes at 40K miles rather than my Dodge's head gaskets, for example.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    True, a minor issue. But he's wrong that its just Honda. Time will tell how all parts of the 2013 hold up. I'm going on a good past history statistically.That's all anyone can do.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited July 2013
    EX is not the top of the line for the Accord. It goes: LX, Sport, EX, EXL, EXL Navi, EXL Navi V-6, Touring V-6.

    So the EX is the mid-level model. I don't think the EX has ever had a leather wrapped steering wheel, and so you can't blame the bean counters for that one. L stands, of course, for Leather, and that's where you get the leather steering wheel. The new model this year, the Sport, surprisingly has it too.

    In any case, a good aftermarket leather steering wheel cover can always be added. Check Pep Boys. Top rated leather for steering wheel c. $25. No biggie.

    Honda added thousands of dollars of equipment to the 2013 Accord compared to the 2012, but only raised the price by something like $150. In other words, for the most part the bean counters lost.

    For instance, compared to the base 2012 Accord LX the 2013 Accord LX adds: alloy wheels, direct injected engine, more advanced transmission, Advanced Compatibility II body with super high grade steel (the only best selling car to ace the IIHS crash test), bluetooth, pandora/integration w/smart phone, back up camera, higher mpg, bigger trunk, much quieter/more sound insulation, etc.

    In my opinion, the only thing we lost that's of any importance is the ski pass through in the back seat. The bean counters got that one, but I can easily live without it in trade for all the other stuff.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So get the turbo if 198 hp isn't enough for you. Sheesh. Five years ago, how many base trim mid-sized family sedans had at least 198 hp?

    It's amazing to me how much power some people think they need in a family sedan. As if they spend all their time drag racing.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Aftermarket leather looks a little cheesy on steering wheels. You can buy an entire new leather wheel for $136 from several places online. I may go that route.

    While I have noticed that my brakes wobble a tad under some conditions now that I have 164k miles on my 2007 Accord, I still am on my original front pads. ;) Can't complain too much about that. I expect my '13 will do just as well.

    Agree on power. My I4's are much faster than I ever need (stick shift helps a lot). Can't imagine a v-6.
  • puppybone69puppybone69 Member Posts: 24
    Well the Fusion 2.0 turbo certainly doesn't need anymore power! I wasn't sure that its 240hp would be enough for me, but honestly, unless you are planning to use your family sedan for drag racing, or towing a trailer, you don't really need as much power as you think you do. Anywhere in the neighborhood of 200hp is more than enough to move fast. If you think you need more power than that in a midsize sedan, the only current model for you is the Chevy SS, otherwise you should be looking at fullsize sedans!
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Well the Fusion 2.0 turbo certainly doesn't need anymore power! I wasn't sure that its 240hp would be enough for me, but honestly, unless you are planning to use your family sedan for drag racing, or towing a trailer, you don't really need as much power as you think you do.

    That's because it has 270 ft-lbs of torque at low to midrange rpm. It actually has more torque than the 3.5 v6 used in the Taurus. If it had 240hp, with say only 200 ft-lbs of torque at over 4k rpm, it wouldn't feel nearly as powerful.
  • puppybone69puppybone69 Member Posts: 24
    Well it's certainly got power to spare. Even at 100mph it's nowhere near its limits, except for the speed limiter kicking in at 120mph, otherwise it would easily top out at 160mph. Just a tap on the gas at 60mph boosts it up to 80mph so fast I'm almost afraid to floor it. Anything with a V8 in it will leave it in the dust, but not without a fight, so I don't have any problems getting it up to highway speeds onto crowded freeways with short entry ramps. If torque is more responsible for all that than hp is, then I'd definitely pay more attention to torque ratings when shopping for a new car. I'm very pleased with the performance of my car, the difference between it and the Ford Probe GT that I used to drive is truly amazing!
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    It was about tie:

    http://autos.yahoo.com/news/penalty-speeding-loss-fuel-economy-160000931.html

    Model 55 mph 65 mph 75 mph
    Accord CVT 49 mpg 42 mpg 35 mpg
    Fusion Hybrid 49 41 36
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,204
    It depends at what rpm's the torque is made. Engine management software allows small engines to make lots of torque at lower rpm's.
    My Fusion has the 2.0 and I don't think I've had the engine much over 4k rpm's yet, but I haven't felt the need to do it.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well duh.

    Other studies have been published on this point over the years, but I'll bet a lot of drivers will take the extra hour (for a 200 mile trip) and pay the extra $5 to $7. Imagine for example a business person driving to a customer meeting. That extra hour with the customer, or working on other business, would probably be worth far more than $5-7 to them.

    Anyway, most major highways and freeways outside city limits in my state (MN) are posted at 65-70 mph. Certainly will use less gas driving the limit than, say, 75+, but 55 wouldn't be advisable. And if the limit is 55, driving 75 would be begging for a ticket, as well as unsafe if most traffic is near 55.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,204
    Hybrids have an advantage in stop and go driving. Have results of that?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Find it interesting that the I4 Accord can match the hybrid Fusion in steady mpg (understood the Fusion would do better in stop and go) while at the same time nearly matching the 2.0 Turbo to 60 mph (besting it if the 6.6 second stick Accord is used).

    Even the V-6 Accord gets about the same mpg as the 1.6 liter Fusion on CR tests.

    Very unimpressed with ecoboost.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited July 2013
    The news is not that going faster lowers your mpg, it's that at 65 mph an Accord CVT gets the same mpg as a Fusion hybrid.

    A 2008 Accord (which I also own) gets about 5-8 miles per gallon less on the highway than the new model. On highway trips in my 2008 Accord we get about 29-31mpg. In similar highway trips in the 2013 Accord we get 37-39 mpg. That's a fairly good jump for one generation. That's esp. true considering that interior room in the 2013 is essentially the same, the trunk is larger, and acceleration is faster.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The news is not that going faster lowers your mpg, it's that at 65 mph an Accord CVT gets the same mpg as a Fusion hybrid.

    No news there either. Everyone knows the main advantage of hybrids wrt fuel economy is in city driving, not highway. On the highway, the hybrids are running on their ICE powerplants. And they have a weight disadvantage to a comparably-sized regular ICE vehicle.

    Let's compare the Accord CVT driving through rush-hour city traffic to the Fusion hybrid. I bet the results will be different. ;)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    dudley: agree that ecoboost seems overrated. They are great engines, but for mpg and acceleration ultimately they don't seem to compete with direct injected normally aspirated engines of a larger size.

    I saw an article a year ago saying that in 10 years something like 70-80% of engines would be turbos of various kinds. Given the added complexity and cost of these engines, I wonder if that's a good idea.

    Honda Accord LX 4-cyl. 49 mpg 42 mpg 35 mpg
    Ford Fusion 1.6 4-cyl. 41 mpg 36 mpg 30 mpg
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    but I'll bet a lot of drivers will take the extra hour (for a 200 mile trip) and pay the extra $5 to $7.

    I agree...going faster is better. Highway 130 here is 85...so you go a comfortable 90. I know it uses much more gas than going 55, but time is much more valuable.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited July 2013
    "Let's compare the Accord CVT driving through rush-hour city traffic to the Fusion hybrid. I bet the results will be different. "

    To use your words: "Well duh."
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Just watch out for those wild pigs crossing the road! Hit one of those at 90, and it will cause quite a mess. :sick:
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Heat and speed ups your chances for a blowout greatly. Not fun!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yeah, especially at 90 mph! And it's pretty hot down there in Central TX.

    I see a huge drop off in FE after 60-65 mph. I can only imagine what the FE would be at 90. But, I'll likely never know as the max speed limit within a 1000 mile radius of me is 70, and when I visit Central TX I plan to stay off 130.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    very true...there are quite a few of them. My wife had one hit the side of her mini-van going down a country road. The pig was small and the dent was big; she was only going 40 mph.

    mmmm...meat :)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    more advanced transmission

    We'll agree to disagree on that one. Though I haven't drove Honda's CVT yet. Let's see if they last longer than Nissans' CTV's known to have a life expectancy under 50K miles.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    The power is needed for passing all the left lane campers and slow mergers out here in CA.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    andres3 wrote: "more advanced transmission

    We'll agree to disagree on that one. Though I haven't drove Honda's CVT yet. Let's see if they last longer than Nissans' CTV's known to have a life expectancy under 50K miles."

    As you say, we'll have to agree to disagree. Although until you've driven the Accord CVT I don't think you can really say whether you like it or not. Honda poured a lot of R & D into a the high tech composite material of the belt, which was the main weak point in terms of durability for Nissan's CVT. Honda also has much better sound and computer simulated "shift feel" than Nissan's CVT. Car magazines seem to confirm this.

    For instance, here is Car and Driver from several months ago:

    "The 2.4-liter is quieter at idle than some other direct-injection engines with their clattering high-pressure injectors, particularly Hyundai’s. And the Honda likes to rev, sounding healthy and full throated at its 6400-rpm power peak. But it’s the CVT’s tuning that makes the Accord feel fleet. The typical rubber-band delay has been minimized, and the throttle responds curtly when you ask for acceleration (although sometimes with some audible transmission whine at high revs). In mountain snakers as well as on city streets, the CVT works so efficiently that it all but disappears...."

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-honda-accord-sedan-first-drive-review
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited July 2013
    If you need more than 198 hp to pass an LLC or a slow merger, you need remedial driving lessons.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    CA has high traffic levels so there is often not much room to pass unless you have a BURST of high HP.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    I love the sounds of those reviews, and Honda is a great company overall. If they nailed the CVT, kudos to them. Time will be the ultimate test though. We'll see for sure in 5-10 years how the CVT's are holding up.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    That's true.

    I did buy the extended 8 year 100k Honda Care bumper to bumper warranty from Honda for c.$1100 just in case. And so my faith isn't absolute. Time will tell, as you say, but I'm guessing right now that it'll work out.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,204
    The Fusion is a pretty heavy car for it's class.
    That just pretty much seems to be the American way of designing things.
    It is also a quiet car.
    The Accord is lighter, but perceived quiet is obtained using active noise cancellation.
    A different philosophy.
    The biggest complainers about Ecoboost are those who don't own one.
    My FWD Fusion with the 2.0 Ecoboost feels very light on it's feet power wise and returns excellent fuel mileage.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • CVTs have been around for a long, long time, but were mostly used in Europe until the last 10 years or so. Now, they are being refined for even better mileage and power, and to better meet American tastes. Along with that they are durable and reliable.

    No company can afford to consistently put out products that fail at 50K miles. That is product suicide in more ways than one.

    There soon will be no old tech transmissions left. Whether you are talking a 9 speed automatic, a DSG, a CVT or whatever, they are all very complex, and nothing like the three and four speed automatics that used to dominate. Like it or not, everything is becoming more complex. At the same time, thankfully, this complexity is becoming much more reliable than even the old simplicity. DI turbo engines, clean diesel and electrics are the way now. Maybe hydrogen soon. People and cars continue to multiply. New ideas are mandatory if we are going to supply this worldwide population explosion with what their forebears have come to expect. None of that is easy to do well, but do well is what is required.

    Ford for example is at the cutting edge with its truly small Ecoboosts. Claims may somewhat exceed real world results. But that is a temporary thing as development continues. That a serviceable turbo 1.6 would be in a mainstream car as large as the current Fusion was almost unimaginable a even a couple years ago. If it is a bit slower and not any more frugal than a larger Accord engine belies the point that it exists at all, and does as well as it does, even after a couple initial kinks. Regular people are now driving it, finding it satisfactory, and are not even incredulous that a 1.6 or 1.5 liter (recently seen as a mini-compact engine at best) powers their family car.

    We are living in the most interesting times. Technology is doing completely magical things every day, and it is not possible for most of us to keep up.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    In other words... most vehicles on the road in CA are unable to safely pass an LLC or slow merger, due to having less than ~200 hp? :surprise:

    It's only in the past few years that the typical mid-sized car had that much power. Actually, many still don't. Then you have all those compacts and sub-compacts with far less than 200 hp.

    There's a difference between NEEDING more than 200 hp in a mid-sized family car, and WANTING more than 200 hp. For those who WANT more power, there's options like the Sonata/Optima turbos and the Accord, Altima, Camry, and Passat V6s.
  • A wise choice. My bumper-to-bumper peace of mind is also assured for 100k.
  • Just read the first review of these soon to be released models. C/D chose the Fusion over the Accord. I was impressed with how both companies kept the weight down considering the relatively large batteries, traction motor, and all of the under-hood transformers, cooling system (s) and cabling that make it all work. That means good 0 to 60 times. Accord with 7.7 and Fusion with 8.6, but C/D preferred the way the power was delivered in the Fusion.

    Long day, so I am going to omit the details for another time.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    In other words... most vehicles on the road in CA are unable to safely pass an LLC or slow merger, due to having less than ~200 hp

    Could be.... or at least it'll be a less safe pass than if they had 700 HP.

    Also, they may be able to pass, but then hold up other traffic behind them from doing the same.

    Sure, more HP is a WANT, not a NEED....You can always just go 55 MPH as well in the right lane. You'll still get to point B eventually from point A.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Man...I would be so safe with 700HP; it's bordering on a NEED...
  • tundradweller1tundradweller1 Member Posts: 74
    So how much time do one really "save" by driving that fast? The beauty of GPS is it predicts quite accurately your arrival time. See how much time you "gain" by driving fast. Or simply do the math. Is the 5 minutes worth the added stress, higher risks and possible tickets...oh and added gas costs? Not for me and I drive for work.
    Of course one could simply watch less TV and reclaim.....hours? ;)
  • puppybone69puppybone69 Member Posts: 24
    Ecoboost engines are direct injected too, so it's a size queen's preference, bigger just makes you feel better. Nothing wrong with that, it's six of one and half a dozen of another.
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