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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2013
    That's why on pickup trucks the most important wheels to have ABS on is the rears.
    I can tell by your posts that you understand the physics involved in having an unloaded pickup with the rear wheels locking....the rear wants to come around and you end up pointing the wrong way on the freeway.

    Here is a list of the four major ABS systems in case any of us wish to fall asleep from boredom early tonight. I just cut and pasted from wiki...

    Anti-lock braking systems use different schemes depending on the type of brakes in use. They can be differentiated by the number of channels: that is, how many valves that are individually controlled—and the number of speed sensors.[17]
    Four-channel, four-sensor ABS
    This is the best scheme. There is a speed sensor on all four wheels and a separate valve for all four wheels. With this setup, the controller monitors each wheel individually to make sure it is achieving maximum braking force.
    Three-channel, four-sensor ABS
    There is a speed sensor on all four wheels and a separate valve for each of the front wheels, but only one valve for both of the rear wheels. Older vehicles with four-wheel ABS usually use this type.
    Three-channel, three-sensor ABS
    This scheme, commonly found on pickup trucks with four-wheel ABS, has a speed sensor and a valve for each of the front wheels, with one valve and one sensor for both rear wheels. The speed sensor for the rear wheels is located in the rear axle. This system provides individual control of the front wheels, so they can both achieve maximum braking force. The rear wheels, however, are monitored together; they both have to start to lock up before the ABS will activate on the rear. With this system, it is possible that one of the rear wheels will lock during a stop, reducing brake effectiveness. This system is easy to identify, as there are no individual speed sensors for the rear wheels.
    One-channel, one-sensor ABS
    This system is commonly found on pickup trucks with rear-wheel ABS. It has one valve, which controls both rear wheels, and one speed sensor, located in the rear axle. This system operates the same as the rear end of a three-channel system. The rear wheels are monitored together and they both have to start to lock up before the ABS kicks in. In this system it is also possible that one of the rear wheels will lock, reducing brake effectiveness. This system is also easy to identify, as there are no individual speed sensors for any of the wheels.
  • vservser Member Posts: 48
    I drove the impala. It was nice, but to me a little jumpy. I felt like I needed to hit the gas. It does look good. There is limited visibility out the back window though.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,204
    To me, the Impala lacks a unique identity.
    It looks like a bigger combination of mid size cars.
    Accord front, Fusion body, Sonata back.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Looking for the perfect car is one of my favorite things to do. Good luck and enjoy !
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    So how does the weight capacity of the Elantra compare to other midsize cars? I've carried more weight in my Accord many times, with no trouble. Point being, if the car has midsize capability, as far as interior and trunk volume, it should also have the same capability, as other midsize cars, as it relates to weight of cargo too. There doesn't seem to be much clearance at all between the tires and fenders on the Elantra, so it would have to have a pretty stiff suspension to compensate for the lack of wheel travel clearance. I guess a stiff suspension, on such a light car, would make for a rough ride, but what good is midsize space, if it can't handle midsize weight?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    It's not a midsized car. It just has a lot of interior and trunk space. It is a compact car with a big interior. What good is the space? It's called elbow room. Take a pickup, you might be able to fit 2000 lbs into the bed but if it's a half-ton pickup you are in for trouble.

    How old was the Elantra? Maybe it had weak springs or something along with being overloaded.
  • Again, the 2009 model was smaller than the current, completely re-designed 2011 and up model. So you have 500 lbs in the back, trunk stuffed w/ luggage, plus driver and passenger. That is a lot of weight for a compact, which is why folks with frequent rear passengers and luggage/golf-bags, etc. will usually select a larger car.

    I tote three kids in my car daily, and we went on vacation with all of our luggage and boogie boards, cooler full of ice and food, etc and my car barely looked like it was loaded down from the outside.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,122
    >. A crushed coke can got sucked off the road

    Glad to hear there was nothing wrong with the car.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2013
    I had an appointment in Manassas, VA this morning at 7 AM, which was no problem to get there (30 mi), but I could not believe the traffic on the way back. It took me an hour and a half. If I had to do that commute every day I would go nuts.

    Why am I mentioning this? Well, I saw all kinds of hybrids, including 3 Optima's, countless Sonata's and 2 new Honda Accord Hybrids. I can't even begin to tell you how many Priusususes. With that kind of stop and go commute I would DEFINITELY be driving a hybrid with battery only operation for at least 20 miles. There would be no way to afford the gas driving anything else. It was nice to see far less large SUV's, which used to make such a status statement. Remember Hummers? Have you seen any lately? Me neither.

    I think America is just beginning to get the picture, which is a good thing. Now we need a better selection of sedans with turbo-diesel hybrids for the best possible fuel savings while still offering loads of power down low, for torque-thirsty American tastes.

    I was really looking forward to testing out the new Mazda 6 TD, but alas it's release was delayed by EPA certification problems. Mazda is saying late Spring before they show up at dealers lots. Bummer.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Being retired, I don't commute anymore but getting caught in a traffic jam pegs the mpg readout in my Prius at 99 mpg.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I see a Hummer every morning in our parking lot. The vehicle hasn't won any 'hearts' in our office as the woman have labeled the man driving it "slimy"...
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    But for apprx how many miles/(minutes?) would it show that, if traffic conditions allowed? And of course at some point in that gradually dropping scale ratio, it will accelerate the drop to 0 mpg as the engine then becomes not only the car motivator but battery charger both at the same time. I think this period must be when some owners (or rather some shoppers who opted not to purchase...or other road users following ones at times) complain that the car doesn't have enough umph at times. Because when you have a good battery charge, the torque specs suggest that the Prius should have plenty of get-up-n-go most times for its size and weight.
  • LMAOOOOOOOOOO
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2013
    Will the battery last for 2 hours of very, very slow traffic and run the A/C as well? How long will a Prius will run on battery only, in those conditions?

    (Yes I know it is a Prius question....but they do steal business from the mid-size market as they are priced fairly competitively).
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    I get the top mpg in stop and go traffic. Worst one I was in was for 20 minutes. I should also add that I have no idea how this works as far as battery power vs gas. I'm not at all disappointed in the cars acceleration. Entering the interstate or passing has been fine. Overall I get in the high forties without hyper miling.
  • I don't think that is a bad combo!
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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2013
    So, I tried it out after a long hiatus. I used it all day, but on my way home from a particularly tiring evening fixing a difficult clients computer, I had no patience for it. It wont downshift when I want it to. Deep stabs of the throttle must be applied, and it bogs down for too long even when I floor it. It just isn't for me, and I don't think the car likes it much either...lurching and struggling is just not classy behavior for such a smooth shifting 6 speed.

    When I switched it off it was like a breath of fresh air. I like the fact that it can achieve 30 plus mph on long trips, and it can offer good city mpg if you are patient enough with traffic, and the ECO programming. I would use it if I lived in the country, or the mid west where there is more space than people and traffic is very light, but here in the bustling east coast megalopolis, I would rather get home with as much alacrity as possible, with the least amount of frustration, and the most driving pleasure possible. I still get 22 mpg average, and that is fine with me.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    What vehicle is this?

    I had a similar experience with an IS350...I had to leave it in sport mode. The default felt like a corolla driving through sand. Actually felt my blood pressure rise; very annoying.
  • vservser Member Posts: 48
    IMHO, I've narrowed down my search two or three cars. I will still attempt to take an extended drive in each as a last qualifier.

    I can get a Titanium Fusion with Nav, Sunroof, Driver Assist, and H spoke wheels, FWD for 33,600 OTD. Or, I can get a Toyota Avalon Limited loaded except for wireless charging tech package for 35,500 plus taxes and destination. That'll probably equal 39,000 OTD. I've looked t the Kia, and could get a 2.0 Turbo loaded for 30,000. In my mind the Avalon will be worth 10k after 7 years whereas the Kia will not. That's the difference between those two.

    But is the Avalon worth 5 or 6 k more than the fusion. Help me spend my money!
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,204
    edited October 2013
    Buy the one you like. You want to feel good about looking at and driving that car every day.
    If money is the overriding factor, buy the Avalon. They are a nice car and sell in small numbers. Not so much competition when you go to sell it.
    I'm assuming you aren't going to take the difference in price, invest it, and make a fortune.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • ahightowerahightower Member Posts: 539
    edited October 2013
    I do not use Eco mode in my accord any more. Manual transmission allows more control over shifts, but the throttle response is dull and irritating, the weakened AC was unpleasant (when I say full blast cold, I mean full blast cold dammit), and I have not noticed any significant improvement in mpg with Eco anyway. Maybe a longer and more scientific test is in order but to heck with that. I bought the accord because of the sweet engine and transmission. Might as well enjoy the car's "natural" character.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    I use Eco mode exclusively on my Accord. I don't really notice a difference big enough to overcome the fuel economy I get. The car is powerful and smooth. I even drove it over the mountains to DC last week and it was great. I prefer lower AC anyway so not a factor. Everyone has different preferences.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    You can cross shop the Avalon with the Buick Lacrosse.
  • From IVAN 99: "What vehicle is this?"

    "I had a similar experience with an IS350...I had to leave it in sport mode. The default felt like a corolla driving through sand. Actually felt my blood pressure rise; very annoying"

    2012 Optima EX. Driving a Corolla through sand is a very apt metaphor. I missed a merge into traffic because it wouldn't downshift, and right when I let off the gas having missed it, the car suddenly lurched forward and I almost hit someone. Not good.
  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    In my mind the Avalon will be worth 10k after 7 years whereas the Kia will not. That's the difference between those two.

    You're stating the Avalon will basically cost $9K more than the Kia to buy. The question is then not what the Kia & Avalon will be worth after 7 years but will the Avalon still be worth $9K more (or greater) after 7 years. If the Avalon is worth $10K and the Kia only worth $4K, the Avalon will have cost $3K more to own (only considering purchase & selling prices; operating costs are another factor).
    Avalon: $39K-10K=$29K net cost
    Kia: $30K-4K=$26K net cost

    Really, though, it shouldn't matter as long as you can afford it. As another poster said, buy the car you like. Or, as I say it, buy the car you want to drive, not the car you want to sell.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2013
    You could cross shop the Cadenza and the Azera, but honestly push comes to shove the Avalon is getting better reviews, good resale value, a very pretty exterior, and a really swanky interior.

    The Fusion 2.0 E/B Titanium is really nice if you can haggle down to 29,990. I would not pay $33 k for it, especially when I just saw a 199/mo lease deal on the Fusion yesterday. Of course it would not be on a fully loaded Fusion for 199 but it does show that Ford is now willing to deal.

    There is another choice. The VW CC is also 30 to 37 k. It is absolutely gorgeous, it is comparable size between mid-size and large sedans on the outside, (but does have less headroom in the back) and is a step up from the Passat IMHO. I think you should go drive one before you commit.

    Here is an excerpt from the Edmund's review of the 2013:

    "The CC is a step above most other midsize sedans. You can see it in profile, as it combines the lower body of a sedan with the tight roof line of a coupe. It's fractionally smaller inside and more expensive overall than the conventional Passat sedan, but it also boasts higher-quality construction, a more advanced base engine, sharper driving dynamics, better overall refinement and sleeker style. It also costs considerably more, as this is an entry-level luxury car with a commensurate level of comfort and convenience features."
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 18,979
    That Edmunds CC review seems a bit of an outlier compared to others I have read and more importantly, the reactions of those I know who have either driven or bought one. I looked at one a couple of years ago when I was in the market and while I liked the styling, it was very tight and did not have much usable space for the size of the vehicle. A friend seriously considered one and dismissed it after a test drive, finding it underwhelming. A coworker owned one and hated it due to poor gas mileage and the confined feeling she had when driving it.

    I would avoid the Fusion as they are everywhere and you don't want to spend $30K on what is perceived as a rental car. I do like the Optima but only if you get it for the right price as it is still a Kiyundai and their long-term value is still an open question. If you are shopping Avalon, then I would also suggest a drive in the Lacrosse or new Impala.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Since when is the Fusion considered a "rental car"? I think only the old Impala would fit that category.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Since there's tons of them in rental fleets, e.g. Hertz. Hence, a rental car. Maybe not as many of the new Fusions in rental fleets yet, but certainly the first-gen Fusion was common as a rental.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2013
    I have noticed a lot of Fusions used as cabs here. There are two huge cab companies out of Arlington/ Falls Church, and their fleet of Crown Vic's were getting very long in the tooth. The Police Department in Fairfax County are now using Ford Taurussusses, and I think they look cool. I also know they have the SHO motor in them with 365 HP.

    Red Top already has 58 older Fusions, so they must be continuing their relationship with Ford and buying new ones. I found the article in the Washington Business Journal. See it here:
    http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/morning_call/2013/04/new-taxicab-comes-to-- arlington.html
    I think it says something good about the durability of the car if cab companies are buying them. I wonder what engine they prefer? I would guess 2.5.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2013
    I want to go drive the new Impala. I just like the way it looks. That blue color with the alloys just does it for me. I know it doesn't break new ground, but it has that "crouching and ready to pounce" look to it. My car has the same kind of thing going on in the hind section. Here is a good picture of the one I would drive: http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/Chevrolet/northamerica/usa/nscwebsite/en/Ho- me/Chevy%20Culture/All%20Stories/All%20New%202014%20Impala%20Revealed/01-images/- 2012-culture-news-2014-impala-mh-1-3-1280x600.jpg
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Pretty sure there are more Hyundais, Kias and Camrys in rental fleets than Fusions. A lot of Fusion fleet sales are taxi and government use, not rental cars.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I don't see too many Sonatas and Optimas in rental car lots these days, I saw a lot more with the previous-generation cars. I see a lot of Camrys and Malibus. But the question wasn't about number of rental cars, it was about whether the Fusion is a "rental car". And it is. Which doesn't make it a bad car, does it?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    By that logic a Jaguar and almost every other vehicle ever made is a "rental car" because somewhere you can rent one. I traveled a lot earlier this year and with Hertz I never saw a single Fusion, old or new. And I wanted one.

    Calling something a "rental car" implies that its primary purpose is to be a rental and that can only be attributed to the old Impala at this point.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2013
    Oh Jeez, so what! It's like you guys are offended. I could care less if my car is sold in rental fleets. I would be equally pleased to have a Fusion, Sonata, or a Optima after a long cramped flight. I actually like all three just fine. They are all wayyyyy better than getting an old Impala, Avenger, and ESPECIALLY the awful-in-every-way Caliber. The Caliber is the WORST rental car I have ever driven. 2.0 liter/ CVT with the alluring sound of farm machinery in the engine bay. Loud, painful motor-boarding dreadful vile piece of crap.

    I posted over a month ago about chatting up a guy with a Fusion at the gas station and he said it was a rental. It had small alloys and cloth seats, but was very nice inside. Great materials and still very stylish. Put a tint on it and some 18' wheels an no one would know it was ever a rental.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 18,979
    My comment was based on my experience this week renting in Norfolk. The Dollar line was adjacent to the Hertz line, and all Hertz seemed to have there were Fusions, both the old and new styles.

    Nothing wrong with rental cars - heck, my 2002 Intrigue was a Certified used car I bought in '03 that was ex-Avis. I liked it. But I didn't pay $30K for it either.

    I agree that the purchase should be based on the car you like best for the money you're willing to spend.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • It was good of you to clarify. Rental or not these cars are expensive. A nice in between model is perfect for most drivers. I just can't make myself like a car enough to pay over $25,000. It is just out of my comfort zone.

    I read an article in C/D (sorry to keep using references from them, but I have been a subscriber since 1987), that said anyone buying a car more expensive than $25,000 is making a very emotional decision. There is something about the car that they LOVE, almost like a human.

    I enjoy that feeling about my car. I still look back as I am walking away in parking lots, I still use the shirt I am wearing to wipe smudges off the window, and I hope I never stop doing either.
  • vservser Member Posts: 48
    Smthg to be said abt buying from an emotional standpoint. Very interesting.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    C/D's overall Verdict on the Fusion, from their recent comparo of mid-sized sedans, was: "Mr. Bond, your rental car is ready."

    See, even James Bond doesn't have a problem being seen in a Fusion rental! :)
  • OMG I read that backy. I'm just glad someone else posted it. Really though, back in the day C/D was the very best car mag. It is a shame that it seems to keep getting thinner and thinner. I mean, what else is a man to read on the throne?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,204
    Philosophically, the Avalon and the Fusion are different, and both are new designs.
    Avalon is smoother, although from what reviews I have read, it has stiffened the ride a bit. Now it shares chassis with Lexus ES which is no longer based on the Camry. V6 is the non hybrid engine choice.
    Fusion is sportier, and only comes with a 4 cyl, not as smooth as a V6, but will most likely return better mileage.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    "Philosophically"

    ????. I guess you mean that the Avalon is a full size car and the Fusion is a midsize car. Most full size cars drive somewhat different....because they are a different class of car. Toyota's Fusion competition in the midsize field is the Camry. Avalon is comparable to other full sizers like the Taurus, Impala, Alzera, LaCrosse and 300. All a class up from the cars that are discussed here. Equipped with similar equipment these cars usually run about $6-9k more than the midsizers.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,204
    vser is comparing these 2 cars. They might be considered different classes by the EPA, but the interior space is less than 1 cubic/ft difference.
    I guess there was a point to be made and I don't know what it was, but I'm listening.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • I think down the road you would be glad you bought the Avalon. If you can swing the extra cash...then go for it.

    I know you have been trying to decide between three cars, two of which are mid size. So, I think it is fine you are posting about it here. If you choose Fusion 2.0 E/B Titanium or Optima SX you will save some money and have a great car

    In response to m6user:
    If you buy the Avalon you have to talk about it on the large car board after all is said and done, but I still want to know if you did choose it, and how you like it every now and then.

    I feel there should be a board called "Modern Mainstream Sedans", and have it done by price range. Until then though, mid size is the focus here,
  • rysterryster Member Posts: 571
    Personally, I would avoid the Fusion. My friend bought a 2013 Fusion Titanium. It has been back to the dealer at least three times for different issues. The "FUSION" badge on the trunk totally fell off. The front passenger seat stopped working (it stopped sliding.) The power steering failed and needed to be replaced (requiring a tow to the dealer, and then $2,000 in warranty work.) They are not pleased at all and quite frankly wish they could lemon it.

    I have a 2011 Hyundai Sonata. I purchased it new, and now have 47,000 miles on it. Aside from several interior squeaks and rattles it has been reliable. Dealer service has been exceptional. It is my first Hyundai, and I would not hesitate to buy another Hyundai product.

    Based on ALG residual value figures, the Avalon will probably be worth $10,000 after 7 years. The Fusion Titanium would be about $7,000 after 7 years. As others have pointed out, you will have spent $29,000 on the Avalon, and $26,600 on the Fusion. The KIA Optima Turbo will have a value of $6-7,000 after 7 years as well, so you will have spent only $23-24,000 on the KIA.

    It all comes down to which one makes you happiest and where you feel your money is best spent. I would probably trust a 7 year old Toyota or KIA/Hyundai product more than I would a 7 year old Ford product. I have owned 2 Fords and had no luck with them. I was no stranger to the Ford service department for unscheduled work.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,204
    My Fusion was keypad entry, so you don't need the keys to get in the car.
    Capless fuel fuel filler is convenient, although minor.
    My Fusion also has remote start. I rarely use it and when I do, it's to find the car in the dark.
    It's less obnoxious that using the panic feature.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2013
    I don't think I would want the keypad because it takes longer. The Optima just lights up when I am about 2 ft from the car, and I just push a tiny recessed button on the door handle and it opens. No fuss and no code to remember.

    I don't have the remote start, but I very much wish I did!

    The car does not like to be left running without the me in the car. It "screams" at me with an irritating, ear-piercing warning chime. ( but I understand why). It only last about 10 seconds and is helpful if you really did accidentally leave the car running with the key-fob in or even forgot to turn the car off even if you didn't leave the fob.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    Accord also has recessed button to lock and unlock. No fiddling with anything. I like that. And it also beeps loudly if you leave the engine running. I like that too because the engine is quiet and I have forgotten a couple of times. Probably because of being new to push button on and off.

    I'd be very surprised if the Avalon was worth only 10k after 7 years.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,204
    With the keypad you don't need the keys at all.
    My Fusion does have keyless entry, which is what you are referring to.
    When my car is running or active and I exit it with the key in my pocket, I get scolded too.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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