Midsize Sedans 2.0

benjaminh · December 2013

On a recent 180 mile highway trip we got 37 mpg in our 2013 Accord 4 cvt going c. 70 mph with 4 people, a dog, and luggage. Pretty good.

The dealer who sold me the car gave me the 1st oil change free, which I just claimed.

Our 2008 Accord we got from the mega dealer in town, while the 2013 was from the much smaller dealer who offered a better price. Both have nice waiting areas and good service as far as I can tell. I do keep my receipts, but I'm also glad that Honda keep the records in their database as well.

benjaminh · December 2013

Did anyone watch the Edmunds story of the guy who replaced his 14 year old Accord with a VW Passat turbo diesel? Nice enough video. Seems like he got a good enough price from the Edmunds price service. The mpg for a diesel Passat is very high (31 city and 43 highway), but personally I doubt that he will be keeping this car 14 years, even if he wants to. I honestly hope I'm wrong, and that VW has solved most of its reliability issues, but I fear that he will be spending more time at the dealer service center than he did with his old Honda. The Passat has been out long enough that they should have fixed most or all of the bugs by now, and perhaps it will be a very reliable car for him. Who knows, maybe he'll pop in here and let us know how he's doing?

benjaminh · December 2013

I'm guessing that there will be some blow-out sales of midsize cars this month. Anyone wishing to buy this month should be able to get a very good deal on a very nice car. Inventories are high for most models, and so dealers should be willing to deal to move the metal....

benjaminh · December 2013

The Accord made the list again, the only midsize and mid-price car to do so. One of their comments:

"A six-speed Accord Sport sedan for $24,505 rates as the best all-around value for a new car, period."

And you might, actually, be able to get 2000 off of that price.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2014-10best-cars-feature-dynasties-2014-bmw- -3-and-4-series-honda-accord-page-3

benjaminh · December 2013

This is my 2 cents, obviously, and others would come up with different lists....

Best styling (very subjective, I know)
3-way tie: Optima, Fusion, Mazda6

honorable mention (for me): Accord (in a form follows function way)

worst (for me): Camry

Best mpg standard model auto:
Nissan Altima is rated 31 combined mpg by the EPA

honorable mention: Accord 30, Mazda6 30

Safest:
Accord, according to IIHS

Fastest acceleration:
V-6: Accord
4 with 6 speed manual: Accord
4 auto: Accord again? Or is someone else faster? Don't know...

Best handling and steering:
Mazda6, according to most comparison test drives that I've read

Best visibility:
Accord

Quality and reliability:
tie? Optima, Accord and maybe some others?

The midsize segment is the most competitive its ever been. The winner is the consumer....

[Deleted User] · December 2013

Glad you brought up the TDI Passat. It helped Volkswagen sell a lot more TDI models than expected.

Sales of its diesel products rose to almost 30% this year, much greater than the 18% expected.

The Passat is what helped them do it apparently. I would much rather drive a Passat TDI than a Prius or really almost any other high MPG sedan. I think view it as a better alternative to buying hybrid this and that, which are a lot more complicated and expensive, and nowhere near as classy and attractive. A diesel really suits american driving tastes too. Lots of torque down low delivers the "oomph" we crave down low to squirt into traffic w/o prayer or drama.

How do I know? I owned a '96 Green Passat TDI. It had a whopping 90 horsepower, but almost 200 lb ft of torque. It got the job done, and I got 45 mpg w/o even trying.

jayrider · December 2013

In Europe, they keep their cars for 10 years plus. They accept the fact that repairs will occur and pay for dealer maintenance to minimize problems. Unlike service personnel here, the euro techs know their cars well because they dominate the market. If you meticulously maintain that TDI with personnel that actually know the engine, you should get at least a decade of use from it maybe more.

[Deleted User] · December 2013

If I was shopping today it would be:

Most attractive for under $25,000

Accord Sport, Mazda6 Sport, Optima EX

Most attractive over $25,000
Accord V6 Touring, Passat 3.6 SEL, Optima SX-L (I would love to say Mazda 6 Touring....but not w/ 185 hp for $32,000)

Least attractive/memorable
Camry, Malibu, Altima

benjaminh · December 2013

What you say is true, but running some epa estimated annual fuel costs I got a shock....

The EPA estimates the following
2014 Passat turbo diesel auto, 34 combined mpg
Annual fuel cost: c. $1700

2014 Nissan Altima 31 combined
Annual fuel cost: c. $1550

Since diesel fuel costs more than regular gas these days, the higher mpg of the Passat turbodiesel can be more than wiped out....

The Kia Optima, by the way, was estimated to have annual fuel costs of $1750. So the difference between your car and a Passat diesel is maybe one tank a year? Not worth the smoke and hassles of a diesel imho.

But maybe the epa underestimates the mpg of diesels? I don't know....

[Deleted User] · December 2013

Around here there is little to no chance of getting highway miles to offset city miles for a better average.

I have started to try to correct my driving habits recently. Easy on the gas, and using the instant mileage meter to try and keep it over 25 mpg. It is darn hard. I am still at 22 mpg. It is frustrating to not get the 24 mpg on the sticker...ever.

I am going to ask on the Optima boards what kind of MPG they are getting. I will report back in 24 hours with some figures. Should be interesting.

suydam · December 2013

I'm mostly in rural driving, very little highway. And now winter gas too. My EX-L Accord gets 27 mpg in those conditions, just as advertised. Very happy with it.

benjaminh · December 2013

Camry 30,386
Accord 27,093
Altima 24,604
Fusion 22,839
Sonata 16,595
Malibu 14,405
Optima 10,871
Passat 8,876
200 5,621
Avenger 4,887
Mazda6 3,641
Legacy 2,911
(source: tsx at vtec.net. Thanks)

benjaminh · December 2013

At this point each of the manufacturers of the top 4Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Fordhave the capacity to make at least 33,000 of their midsize model every month. And Toyota can make up to 40,000 Camrys each month.

Bottom line: no one is selling as many as they can make at this point.

I thought by now it might be closer to neck and neck, and that the Camry might be stumbling a little more than it is. I still expected it to win for calendar year 2013, but now I have to admit that it's not even that close. Toyota has said they'll put as much cash on the hood as needed to stay #1, and so I expect them to have a total blowout in December. My guess is that more than 40,000 new Camrys will find new homes this month.

My other guess, however, is that Honda, Nissan, and Ford, will also up their incentives, although not by nearly as much. In any case, I expect that they will all have a banner month, which each of them selling more than 30,000 of their car in December.

But the rankings for the year will be much like you see here. Camry will have a strong lead for #1. Honda is making progress and closing the gap a little, but since they built a better (and more expensive to build and sell car), they can't give them away. They need to sell them on quality and value, which is working so far.

Nissan, however, I expect to realize that their attempt at a home-run with the new Altima was only a double. They might put some major money on the their car and start blowing them out the door.

Ford, however, is in a position closer to Honda's. Ford built a better and more expensive car with the Fusion, and so although low Mexican wages help them out a bit on the price front, they won't start giving away the new model. That's why just a couple of months after starting production of the Fusion in Michigan they are already dialing back their number there.

VW must be upset about the Passat. I think they were expecting numbers close to the Sonata at this point, but so far it's just not happening, even with the success of their turbo diesel models.

Mazda is doing well with the all-new 6, but as someone once said, "twice nothing is still nothing." 3,600 a month isn't nothing, but at this point they aren't a big player. But expect the sales of the Mazda6 to grow strongly in 2014. A year from now they could double their numbers again, passing cars like the Avenger and 200.

My 2 cents as I waste time....

benjaminh · December 2013

I'm also getting about 27 in the city in my 2013 Accord cvt, and as I already mentioned we get c. 36-39 on the highway. And so we are getting close to the epa rating of 27/36

That compares with c. 23 in the city and 30-31 on the hwy with our 2008 Accord, which is also right around the sticker rating.

benjaminh · December 2013

Year-to-Date
Toyota Camry 378,520
Honda Accord 334,357
Nissan Altima 295,907
Ford Fusion 270,872
Hyundai Sonata 189,169
Chevrolet Malibu 185,101
Kia Optima 146,419
Volkswagen Passat 100,398
Chrysler 200 116,828
Dodge Avenger 88,892
Mazda6 39,273
Subaru Legacy 39,352

Read more: http://wot.motortrend.com/1312_november_midsize_sales_toyota_camry_in_first_pass- at_passes_200.html#ixzz2mSFDB52v

explorerx4 · December 2013

I'm assuming 24 refers to the EPA city mileage rating.
It's not a floor, any vehicle can do worse than the city rating, depending on driving style and conditions.
My Explorer is rated at 14 MPG city. When my kids drove it, they regularly got between 11 and 12 MPG.
Short trips and foot on the gas all the time.
It took me 3 weeks to go through the last tank in my Fusion.
Short trips, traffic, and winter gas returned the worst mileage ever, 23.9.

explorerx4 · December 2013

I hate to tell you this, but a Camry V6 is probably faster to 60 than an Accord V6.
Any of the 2.0 turbo cars are fairly close the the V6's.
The Fusion and Legacy are available with AWD, so they are the best handlers in the real world.

benjaminh · December 2013

Car and Driver tested a 2013 Honda Accord V-6 to 60 in 5.6 seconds.

C & D has a 2012 V-6 Camry SE at 5.8.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-honda-accord-sedan-v-6-test-review

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/toyota-camry-se-v6-road-test-review

Edmunds has a 2.0 Fusion AWD making it to 60 in 6.9.

http://www.edmunds.com/ford/fusion/2013/road-test-specs1.html

explorerx4 · December 2013

The Accord and Camry were tested over 2 years apart, judging from the dates of the comments in each review.
Not only that, the part of the country they were tested at, looking at the pictures, and thus the track was different.
Not really an apples to apples comparison.
Fusion was reviewed by Edmunds, not C&D, also not a straight up comparison.

backy · December 2013

The Accord made the list again, the only midsize and mid-price car to do so.

Not sure which 10 Best list YOU saw, but the one I saw had the Mazda6 on it also. I consider the Mazda6 to be a "midsize and mid-price" car.

benjaminh · December 2013

You're right. I stand corrected. I missed that.

[Deleted User] · December 2013

That actually makes me feel a lot better. Which 4 cyl do you have in your Fusion? 1.6 or 2.5?

I have been trying to keep the instant mileage bar as close as I can to max mpg by being totally stingy with the gas. I have been diligent with it for almost a week now, but short trips and traffic hamper my goals as well.

I am at 22 mpg. The average of the 16 average mpg posts that I received is 26.2 on the 2.4 liter Optima.

[Deleted User] · December 2013

You know the holidays are here and many people are shifting their focus to X-Mas and buying presents online. This link has nothing to do with cars, but does have a TV selling for car money( $39,995 (on sale from $44,995). The comments and reviews are HILARIOUS!

So, lets see what luxury car money buys you in an 85" TV. Please read!

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-UN85S9-85-Inch-Ultra-Smart/forum/Fx13P0E9HR5I7UE/-- /1/ref=cm_cd_dp_aar_ql?_encoding=UTF8&asin=B00CMEN95U

Kirstie_H · December 2013

I kept my cool until I got to the "cat" question/answer.

[Deleted User] · December 2013

I can't believe (but am grateful) that Amazon has kept the fun going so long. All of the Q and A's are silly, but no one is arguing, inappropriate, or offensive.

The holiday spirit is alive and well indeed.

Kirstie_H · December 2013

Good for them, and they just got a sale out of it. No, I didn't buy the TV.

But hitting that link reminded me of a gift I'd been meaning to buy, so I just did it while I was there.

explorerx4 · December 2013

I have the 2.0 ecoboost. I usually wait for 3 round trips to work before checking the fuel consumption.
My wife has the same engine in her 2013 Escape.
So far, it has not come close to the 28 mpg highway rating, but overall it's averaged a bit better than the '09 Escape with the same horsepower.

[Deleted User] · December 2013

See, I am not even getting close to that MPG, and I have just the 200 HP 2.4 non-turbo. Are you TRYING to get good mpg, or just driving along normally?

I have been driving like an old man for 5 days now, trying to up my mpg to at least 24, but I am still at 22. However, I am filling up today, and will be trying to reach 25 mpg diligently. On my last fill up I started off at 15.9 and it took a week to get to 19.

m6user · December 2013

It's probably just the extreme congestion you drive in. City mpg numbers from the EPA are an estimate considering all kinds of "city" driving. Somewhat congested suburban type with fairly long distances between lights versus a lot of constant stop and go with long idle times are both what would be considered "city type" driving but one would probably net 4-5 less mpg. It's very hard to compare one person's city driving to another unless they are pretty much in the same city and traffic patterns. I know when I drive a lot of errands and don't have even one trip of any distance where I can maintain a steady speed for very long my mpg goes way down. I normally average about 24mpg in my CUV but when doing only local type driving with a lot of stops and traffic signals my tank will be only about 20mpg. I have to stop and think why the hell my mpg dropped so much and then I recall just what kind of driving I did on that tank versus my usual driving.

[Deleted User] · December 2013

I just filled up and reset everything. This tank will determine my MPG using every trick I can. Just getting back to my house I just averaged 26.5 so I am off to a good start.

akirby · December 2013

Don't forget you're on winter blend fuel - that alone is usually worth 1-2 mpg drop. And make sure your tires are properly inflated. Mine were 8 lbs low due to the temp change and once I fixed it my mpg went up considerably.

[Deleted User] · December 2013

Where have you been hiding yourself kirby? Can you give us an update on your Fusion?

I would hope my TPMS would let me know on the tires. It is really hard to tell pressure on radials!

explorerx4 · December 2013

I just bought a digital tire gauge at Sears for $10. Still have my old one, which I've had for over a decade. I dropped it and it stopped working, so I bought a new one. The old one started working again and they both read the same pressure.

akirby · December 2013

TPMS will only report an error when the pressure is more than 25% low - or about 8 lbs. Even a few lbs too low can affect fuel mileage. Mine were 8 lbs too low last week.

My fusion is great - still loving it. Got all of the early build issues fixed (missing trim, fuel tank capacity problem). Just checked and my lifetime average is 21.5 mpg which is exactly what I expected. Although I have to admit I'm smitten with the 2015 mustang. That thing is sharp!

explorerx4 · December 2013

Didn't you change your tires? Maybe the oem's were LLR and the new tires are not.
When I bought LRR tires for my Explorer, local driving mileage went up, but highway stayed about the same.

ab348 · December 2013

Well, it sort of looks like a 2-door Fusion so that is understandable. I don't like it myself, especially the interior/instrument panel. Seems like a miss by Ford.

[Deleted User] · December 2013

Here is my exact tire. It is really good in the wet, and quiet although it isn't much quieter than the Nexen's. I got a buy 3 get one free deal on them at Merchants.

HTTP://www.bridgestonetire.com/tire/turanza-serenity-plus/215-55r17

I don't know if it is LRR or not. It is considered "better" at F/E in the description. The guy I bought them from said F/E would be about the same.

I was interested in a quiet and softer ride, but wet traction was my main priority. I hate to slide. I don't like the feeling that I am close to sliding by just driving normally in a misty drizzle.

I came out of a Jeep Grand Cherokee V8 Quadra-Trac II 4x4, and I really miss the wet traction. If I had the wheels cocked to make a right on red, and it was raining, my GC would slide out a bit in the back, and then bite down and accelerate with no prob at all. I really miss the V8 growl and the confidence I had while driving in inclement weather. Goodyear Wrangler LT 245?/60/16 tires came stock on the V8 G/C Laredo in case you guys still have an SUV.

If I tried that same corner with my Optima with the old Nexen's, it would just spin and spin while the traction control tried in vain to cope, with the engine bouncing off the rev limiter. Not fun.

With the Bridgestone Tuaranza's, the traction is much better. The traction control only kicks in about half as much, and I am able to merge into traffic with more confidence in similar situations where the wheels are cocked.

[Deleted User] · December 2013

I think the 2015 Ford Mustang looks great outside though. They had to keep the interior "Mustangish", but they are offering the newest (and much improved) generation of My Ford Touch for the first time.

I never liked the Mustang interior as well, but this one looks great IMHO.

Here is the image URL: http://www.ford.com/global/2015mustang/img/plates/s550_feature_1480x700_tech_fro- m_passenger.jpg

and: http://www.ford.com/global/2015mustang/img/plates/s550_feature_1480x700_cockpit.- jpg

Make mine the Coyote 5.0 V8, blood red, with black and tan interior (if available).

explorerx4 · December 2013

According to Tire Rack, your new tire is an LRR tire.
The Nexen's are a couple of pound lighter, but they don't have any treadwear warranty at all.

akirby · December 2013

The interior is also significantly upgraded. I don't think the pictures are doing it justice. This will be a global car and I think they hit a home run.

[Deleted User] · December 2013

Oh h*** yeah. The interior is wayyy nicer. Saw the write-up in CD, but I just saw the interior today. The headlights look similar to the Fusion, as well as the grill, but it retains the look of a Mustang of course.

The main problems with selling it globally are being addressed. The addition of a competitive IRS module (finally!), 300 lbs of weight loss, better quality materials inside and out, and more efficient powertrains including a 2.3 turbo with 310 hp, and adding the 3.5 liter ecoboost twin turbo down the road as an upgrade to the base 3.7. The 5.0 liter Coyote "Five-Point-0" will continue to power the GT.

Sorry I went on and on, but I have always wanted one, and now Ford is finally producing one with all the modern goodies(quality dash, Independent suspension) that are standard on the very cars we have now in this forum costing far less.

[Deleted User] · December 2013

I had a 10% off coupon from Bridgestone, plus I got the 4th tire for free when Merchant's was running that promotion in August.

Merchant's didn't want to use the coupon in conjunction with the BOGO but the manager got it done. They have always been good to me FYI. The tires continue to show no wear at all. Nexen's = crap.

ab348 · December 2013

I have no doubt the interior materials are improved - the existing Mustang has some of the cheapest, nastiest interior materials around. Ford should have been ashamed of themselves. So that isn't a very high bar to surpass. But the design in the new car is just ugly. Very busy and disjointed. Dunno when Ford is going to make an impressive interior. It just doesn't seem within their capabilities.

akirby · December 2013

Then you're in the minority. Most think the design is gorgeous and a big improvement. It will appeal to die hard mustang fans as well as import buyers.

jayrider · December 2013

The new design stacks up better against the Camaro in my opinion. Sales should improve.

ab348 · December 2013

That's OK. The automotive press and car geeks tend to freak out when a new model is introduced. Look at the splash the current Fusion made when it was introduced. People were saying all sorts of over-the-top things about it. It is a solid contender and a competent car, but certainly hasn't blown the competition out of the water and isn't head and shoulders above the rest.

I don't understand the popularity of the current Camaro either. It has a terrible interior, is way too big, and you can't see out of it. I can't imagine living with one every day. I like the current Mustang a lot better. I'm not so sure the new one stacks up as well as the current model. But we'll wait until we see one in the flesh.

jplatt2 · December 2013

The new issue of Consumer Reports has a page called "Owners Weigh In: The Best and Worst Models. For "definitely buy again" for midsize cars, the results were:
Mazda6 85%
Passat TDI 83%
Accord 82%
Fusion 74%
Optima(turbo) 73%
Camry 73%
Legacy 71%
Optima 64%
Malibu 63%
Sonata 63%
200 (6 cyl) 62%
Altima 62%
200 (4 cyl) 56%

crkyolfrt · December 2013

When checking out the Accord, did you happen to enquire about Honda's measures taken with the new DI engine in the Accord, to ensure it does not deposit excess oil that burns itself to the bottom of valve lobes, etc? thereby creating a carbon buildup, that with time will create a higher CR and the need to start fueling it with PUG to fend off the ping. Apparently premature and excessive carbon buildup goes hand in hand with these newer DI gas engines.

I suspect that conservative Toyota is still perfecting a DI engine of some sort..but they sure don't need to have anymore engine woes come to mind for shoppers now after the oil sludge scene. I think that there is just enough different content in our gas vs the EUs, that ours don't burn as clean. Remember when we had MMT in it? The EU weren't using that crap during those years either..I don't think..

backy · December 2013

Did they say, were these the current designs or did the ownership experience go back a-ways? If current designs, the ownership experience would range from less than a year (e.g. Mazda6) to several years (e.g. Sonata, 200, Legacy).

I'm surprised the Legacy and Altima scored as low as they did. Subaru owners tend to be pretty loyal, and the Altima is a solid car, far better than the likes of the 200 and Malibu IMO.

ab348 · December 2013

Those results are not particularly surprising to me. Both Subaru and Mazda were typically only bought by the cultists for each make, for the most part. I think that still holds true for the Mazda, judging from its low sales volume, so its high score is not a surprise. But Subaru has become hot the last couple of years and people are buying them who would never consider them before. That probably pulled their score down some as new buyers cope with some of the things that are unusual or quirky about Subarus. It is still a decent score.

I am also not surprised by the Accord and Camry scores as buyers of those tend to be very loyal and think they have the best cars in the world. The makes having scores in the 60s represent the center of the market, not particularly loyal one way or the other. Buy an Altima this time around, something different next time. No real surprise.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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