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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    There has been much debate surrounding this topic. NVH-wise, I believe some of the engines in this class have performed very well in terms dB. Off the top of my head, and based on my experiences, I would say the 3.3L from Hyundai is probably one the quietest, if not the, out of the V6 engines in this class. Toyota's 3.5L and Honda's 3.0L is not far behind in terms of dB.
  • "To those who keep calling the Mazda 6 engine "antiquated", "rough", and "thrashy", perhaps the less-exaggerated way of putting it is "not as smooth" or "not as quiet" or "not as efficient" as some other engines in this class... Given these awards, it can't be as bad as you describe... As an analogy, since the Accord is slightly behind the Sonata in JD Powers reliability reports, perhaps you'd say the Accord is junk? I'd say that this is also an exaggeration that doesn't stand to reason... 6's engines aren't class leaders. But they don't deserve to be dogged either."

    zzzoom6,

    Excellent post about the Mazda6.

    I apologize if I came across as exaggerating or dogging the Ford/Mazda 3.0L, that was not my intent. I was merely comparing, and yes you are correct in that instead of saying "rough" and "thrashy" as compared to ___, one can say "less smooth" etc.

    I've owned two Mazdas, a 1991 626 and a 1998 626 V6, both very good cars (and both stick shifts). I haven't driven the Mazda6 "s" 5-speed manual because, as I mentioned, all the performance numbers which I had seen for it (low-7 seconds manual, about 8 seconds 5A, mid-7 seconds 6A) were not too different manual versus 6-speed auto. When shopping I drove Fusion 2.3L 5M, Fusion 3.0L 6A, and Mazdaspeed6.

    If I had known mid-6 second runs were possible with the 3.0L 5M, I'd have definitely tried one before buying the Accord 2.4L 5M. The Accord feels quick to me but certainly not sub-7 quick. It can and has outrun Mazda6 "s" 6-speed automatics. (That's the only disagreement I have with your post, my Accord 4-cyl is considerably faster than the Mazda6/Fusion 2.3L, at mid-7 seconds versus low-9 seconds to 60).

    I was just focusing on one area: trying to define engine refinement and giving examples. Of course this is just one small factor to evaluate! I agree that the 6 is an excellent car with many class-leading qualities. I'd love to have the clean, well-designed and attractive "5th-door" hatchback in my Accord, not to mention the 6's handling. Also, I will be thrilled if my Accord has the reliability record of my old 1998 626: over 100,000 miles with only scheduled maintenance and wear item replacements.

    When it comes right down to it, all else equal, I'd take better performance for slightly less "refinement." I chose the Accord mostly for value (purchase price and resale), its blend of refinement and performance/handling, and record of reliability. But as you said, to each his own, and I'm happy. Would I also be happy with a 6? Of course.

    I assume you have a 6? Want to trade cars for a weekend? :)
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    That'd be fun actually! Seems most of my friends have gravitated toward SUV's rather than cars, so I haven't spent a whole lot of time in an Accord since I test drove them over a year ago. Honda continues to improve their cars, and considering the high level they've been at for quite some time, that says a lot about their commitment to excellence. I only hope that in the long run, my Mazda 6 holds up as well as my previous accords. 16 months so far, and I have had no major problems (had a rattle fixed and a blown speaker replaced under warranty). But if all continues to go well, I'm sure I will have this car for several more years.

    your posts have been quite civil and described well so no worries about hard feelings.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    Let me step in, if I may, since I'm also a 6 owner (S sedan, 5-speed manual). :)

    I haven't driven the Mazda6 "s" 5-speed manual because, as I mentioned, all the performance numbers which I had seen for it (low-7 seconds manual, about 8 seconds 5A, mid-7 seconds 6A) were not too different manual versus 6-speed auto. When shopping I drove Fusion 2.3L 5M, Fusion 3.0L 6A, and Mazdaspeed6.

    I bet you wouldn't have paid much more (if any) if you bought the MazdaSpeed 6 compared to your Accord, since they're practically giving them away.

    If I had known mid-6 second runs were possible with the 3.0L 5M, I'd have definitely tried one before buying the Accord 2.4L 5M.

    You're right, it's no barn-burner, but mid-6-second 0-60 is almost the norm for the V6 with 5-speed. The low-end punch is lacking a little IMO, but over 3000 RPM, it really moves. Dropping a gear to pass on the highway is almost TOO easy, and fun BTW!

    (That's the only disagreement I have with your post, my Accord 4-cyl is considerably faster than the Mazda6/Fusion 2.3L, at mid-7 seconds versus low-9 seconds to 60).

    A slight correction. The low-9 seconds to 60 MPH that you refer to is for the Mazda 6 with the 2.3L and automatic. With the manual, I believe you're looking at mid- to high-7s, same as the V6 with automatic.

    When it comes right down to it, all else equal, I'd take better performance for slightly less "refinement." ... Would I also be happy with a 6? Of course.

    I like how you think. :) I bought my 6 in '04, after repeatedly test-driving it, an Accord coupe (V6, 5-speed manual), an Altima 3.5SE (V6, 5-speed manual), and a Legacy GT (limited with manual). In the end, each had it's flaws, but the 6 won me over on the not-so-bad V6 power, excellent handling, great styling and an inexpensive price.

    The Accord was smooth, powerful, and styled nicely, but the 2-door is impractical for me, and at the time, the only V6, 5-speed manual combo from the factory was the coupe (but yes, I know it's available on the 4-door now.)

    The Altima wasn't bad. Excellent power with the V6, but the body-roll while cornering almost gave me motion-sickness. The torque-steer was terrible, especially during cornering, and the interior was cheap-looking and cheap-feeling to me. Apparently, the '08s have fixed all that, but I haven't driven one yet.

    The Legacy had AWD, but you can feel it's extra weight from the instant you hit the gas. The 4-cyl was okay, but I know I'd get terrible gas mileage with the AWD. And I could never get comfortable in the driver's seat, no matter what position I tried.

    I assume you have a 6? Want to trade cars for a weekend?

    I do. And no, sorry! ;)
  • 4000 rpm for 80? 4 banger territory these days and would be actually be high for any of the V6s in this group. My 2GR Toyota with a 5 speed auto is at 2700 for 80 mph and would suggest to you that some of those 'old' 3.8s are turning even less than that.

    I forgot to mention, that motor was a screamer! Redline was 7,000 RPM, but it would readily and willingly surpass that- I was a couple of hundred RPMs into it by accident a few times and the rev limiter never interfered, and this one time...

    My wife will KILL me if she ever sees this, but... When driving a stick she used to get nervous and try to do everything too fast, even though I taught her it doesn't matter how slow you operate the clutch and gear shifter, always better to take your time.

    One late, late night she was driving it and merging onto an empty highway. She ran it out pretty high in first gear, shifted very quick to second and ran it out to make the jump into 3rd... and instead, went right back into first and dropped the clutch. Talk about a motor "screaming" !!! I couldn't see exactly from the passenger seat but it was WAAAAAY in the red, over 7,500 RPMs. I can still hear the sound. Maybe the limiter finally stepped in and saved my butt that time, lol.

    But everything was fine, no ill effects. It had almost 100,000 miles on it at that point, too. It's still ticking along somewhere I'm sure, the last time I spoke to the guy I sold it to he had no complaints. Take that 3.8 above 7,500 and see what happens!
  • I bet you wouldn't have paid much more (if any) if you bought the MazdaSpeed 6 compared to your Accord, since they're practically giving them away.

    Yea I thought about that, they had the one I drove marked at $23,000 and that was last year. That's only a few grand more than my Accord was. But, insurance and speeding tickets would have been much, much more :)

    I can't restrain myself well. It's more fun for me to run my Accord 4-cylinder hard than it was for me to drive that 2005 Mustang GT (which I had from a local dealer for two days when the wife wanted to upgrade) because of having to refrain from taking advantage of the power. You could floor it in one gear and that was it, fun was over or you're looking at a BIG TIME ticket or accident.

    Oh, and this is a little off topic but speaking of engine refinement, the Mustang story reminded me... my wife currently drives a 2004 Mustang with the 3.9L V6, and it makes the DT30 seem like a BMW six.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    I can't restrain myself well. It's more fun for me to run my Accord 4-cylinder hard than it was for me to drive that 2005 Mustang GT (which I had from a local dealer for two days when the wife wanted to upgrade) because of having to refrain from taking advantage of the power. You could floor it in one gear and that was it, fun was over or you're looking at a BIG TIME ticket or accident.

    LOL!!! I'm having that very problem right now. Coming from a Mazda6 S with a stick I was used to being able to floor it for 2 or 3 gears when merging onto a highway (Yes from a stop because the drivers around here can't merge for anything :sick: ) and I'd still be at a reasonably safe speed. With my current Mustang GT I'm doing 80 before I'm even at redline in 2nd gear. It's really hard getting used to that sensation but boy is it fun! I just make sure the coast is really clear before doing that. Otherwise I "granny" it. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    sorry I guess I misunderstood what you were calling 'low'. But, in any case, I find it hard to believe that any V6 especially one with a Ford label, would run out past 7000 rpm. If so, it certainly can't be related to the 3.0 DT. The 2GR Toyota has a 6500 redline, the tranny will hold right to redline with any sort of encouragement, so much so, that you find yourself bouncing off the rev limiter simply because it (the rev increase) is so transparent and quick. As far as that 3.8 at 7500 - can you say schrapnel? ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    a 2004 Mustang with the 3.9L V6, and it makes the DT30 seem like a BMW six
    the curse of the pushrod???.
  • madurbsmadurbs Posts: 19
    Isn't the 04 Mustang V6 the 3.8? We have the 3.8 in my wife's 2000 Windstar. My lawnmower or weedwacker (take your pick) are smoother than that Ford 3.8.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    The thing is, many of the high-horsepower cars are getting some of the best mileage estimates (compare the Altima 4-cylinder to the rest of the 4-cylinder class, it has best economy AND acceleration.)

    thats the cvt doing that. I would look for it to show up in more cars over the years because of that. It takes a couple hundred miles to get used to it, but once you do, its quite an amazing bit of technology.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Isn't the 04 Mustang V6 the 3.8?

    My niece has an 04 Mustang convertible V6. That is one pitiful engine. I know it's larger displacement than my 03 V6 Accord (3.0). The performance is sad, for a sports car.
  • tinatinatinatina Posts: 388
    Hey thegraduate,

    I've noticed that my 2006 Accord SE 4 auto. has gotten better mpg. I bought the car last June new and it has about 12,000 miles. Starting at about 7,000 miles the car consistently rewarded me with over 30 miles to the gallon (Over 33 miles on one trip to Monterey, CA and going over 450 miles before the light came on). I use the car primarily on the freeway with trips about 70 miles or so. At times in some streches, its stop and go on the freeway and speed no higher than 25.

    As far as the new, 2008 Accord, the vtec.net site had some good information about the 4s and 6s (albeit perhaps highly speculative). I don't think Honda will increase the hp of the 4 by that much though - usually its 10. Look for a boost in fuel economy and additional safety items.
  • oldcemoldcem Posts: 309
    The 4 banger accords gave me less than expected mileage because I live in the mountains. I had to constantly downshift to maintain interstate speeds, especially if I was carrying passengers and luggage.

    Never said the Chryslers were reliable - my last 2 have been terrible, but, they do get great gas mileage.
    My experience with Japanese cars - my first Accord was great, the second was a lemon. Two of my kids bought Civics, and, with much interstate driving, the engines in both were pretty much shot by 90K. My other kid has tried a Toyota MR2, a Nissan Sentra, and a Hyundai Excel. The MR2 and the Sentra were money pits, but, the Hyundai went 146K with minimal repairs. Do I think Toyotas and Hondas are reliable - Sure, but, I've also gotten similar reliabilty out of most of the Ford, GM, and Chrysler cars I've owned. IMO I think Ford and GM have gotten much better of late, and, Chrysler seems to have gotten worse.

    Regards:
    OldCem
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The 4 banger accords gave me less than expected mileage because I live in the mountains. I had to constantly downshift to maintain interstate speeds, especially if I was carrying passengers and luggage.

    Ah, that makes perfect sense. Hondas aren't known well for low-end torque for good reason; until lately, they simply didn't have much of it. Top end power was plentiful in most models, but below 3,000 RPM, not a whole lot would typically go on. This is true in my 1996 Accord (although my 2006 is plenty torquey with peak torque a good deal lower than the older models as well).

    You probably get the best mileage out of high-torque, lower hp engines in your conditions. In mine, the Honda balance works much better.
  • oldcemoldcem Posts: 309
    Easiest way for Ford to make up ground with the competition is to do exactly what Chrysler did with its midsize - stuff the 3.5 in it coupled to a 6 speed tranny, and, make the two smaller engines available as lower cost options. I've not driven a 3.0 Fusion yet, so I don't know if its supposed NHV problems are real or not. Plan to drive one as soon as I start shopping for a replacement for my business driver Sebring.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    Not sure how interstate driving renders an engine "shot". But my neighbor had an MR2 that he put 180,000+ miles on it, rarely had any work done to it, redlined the hell out of it, and when he sold it it ran so smooth that you couldn't tell the engine was even running when it idled.

    My colleague's Hyundai Excel was a POS. A joke.

    My Ford experiences have been disappointing. I've gone Japanese for many years now and have never been disappointed.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    My colleague's Hyundai Excel was a POS. A joke.

    Relevance? The Excel was a subcompact, last sold in the U.S. in 1994.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Relevance?
    actually a whole lot of relevance - despite the Sonata being a much better car by all measures, experiences like this underline the reputation issues that Hyundai still faces - and therefore effects not only the price that these vehicles command but also the resale values later. On the other side of the coin, Toyota and Honda, in particular, will continue to enjoy the honeymoon they have been on for years, even in the event that their cars prove to be unremarkable.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Toyota and Honda, in particular, will continue to enjoy the honeymoon they have been on for years, even in the event that their cars prove to be unremarkable."

    The fact the Honda cars are unremarkable is interesting due to the fact Honda keeps beating the competition with old designs to new designs. If Hondas' cars are unremarkable it makes Hyundais' cars non-existent.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    in the event that their cars prove to be unremarkable.
    is what I said, the last thing that I would tell you that even in its current form - that the Accord is 'unremarkable', the point was that if by some magical wave of the wand, the Honda became even an 'average' car, the preception that it is still among the best will last long after thereafter. Same thng applies, incidentally to the Camry, IMO.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    I have been so impressed by my two Accords (for 16 years), that I will keep buying them, until one fails to meet expectations. Many others will do the same, I suspect. Frankly no other car company has a chance, until an Accord fails me. When I find what I want, I don't keep looking.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    stuff the 3.5 in it coupled to a 6 speed tranny, and, make the two smaller engines available as lower cost options
    I think Ford's PR dept. would tell you that this is exactly what they are going to do - the beancounters are the ones that may have a problem with it...
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    if it ain't broke, why should you fix it! I think your attitude is shared with many many Accord owners, and not something that you will find too much amongst Malibu owners, for example.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    stick with what works. Its the same reason i stick with the nissans. 3 of them so far, 380,000 miles (and the altima only has 1500) and never been left on the side of the road, or not made it somewhere because a car wouldn't start.

    And as for the civic's that somebody said were dieing at 90k, did you ever change the oil or maintain them? Though I prefer my nissan's, I've got to give Honda credit. They do build one heck of car. the 2002 civic my wife drives has 110,000 on it, and has never needed anything but schedulded timing belt change somewhere around 100k. and it runs perfect
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    stick with what works. Its the same reason i stick with the nissans. 3 of them so far, 380,000 miles (and the altima only has 1500) and never been left on the side of the road, or not made it somewhere because a car wouldn't start.

    Congrats on your good fortune. I find that the SR20 would pop a head gasket around 95-105k and the transmissions would start popping out of 5th gear somewhere in that time frame too. In its day, that was a great motor. I know the 2.5l had some issues early on but those seem to be resolved, and if the VQ didn't require premium unleaded, that great 6 would be on my list as well.
  • oldcemoldcem Posts: 309
    Just to set the record straight. Both Civics were used by my kids to run back and forth to college. Both were serviced every 3K miles using Castrol GTX. Both of them were burning excessive amounts of oil by the time 90K rolled around and needed their valve trains rebuilt. One of them developed a crack in its exhaust manifold orignating from the Ox. sensor fitting as well. The dealer wanted $1000 to fix it. One good thing - they did have decent resale value when I dumped them.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Relevance? actually a whole lot of relevance - despite the Sonata being a much better car by all measures, experiences like this underline the reputation issues that Hyundai still faces...

    From Post #1:

    Let's see if we can start off with some ground rules so that it is abundantly clear what this topic is about. Well, duh, it's about midsize sedans. But here is what it is not about:

    * manufacturers issues...


    Based on that, I comsider Hyundai's reputation based on late '80s-early '90s subcompact to be irrelevent to this discussion. People who haven't had their heads in the sand since the mid-'90s realize that the Sonata is very competitive in the mid-sized class, in both capabilities and reliability.
  • oldcemoldcem Posts: 309
    The 2.5 and 3.0 Duratec derivatives that I've owned both redlined at 6500 as well, and, would get there quite quickly. My Chrysler 2.7 redlines at 6500 also, but, is not happy.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • oldcemoldcem Posts: 309
    Very simple - Interstate driving here in the mountains where I live means a Civic 4 banger with automatic spends its life at high RPM an excessive amount of time, because that's where its power band is. The engines simply wore out.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
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