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Comments
I agree. While the Accord is competitive and does best most cars in this class in several ways the differences are pretty minor. Certainly not "lightyears".
That's a pretty bold statement to make without backing it up in any way. I mean, was that statement purely media induced or do we have some hard facts to back it up?
Actually, your net might have been a bit higher than you think, since it sounded like you would have financed the car anyway. So your net rebate would be based on the difference in the interest cost between the MAC loan and the loan you replaced it with.
All three places I shopped at told me it could be paid off right away. OTOH, I did get hosed on the rate...10.5% for me, with a credit score around 800. Not that it mattered much, given the length of time I had the loan
The dealer I bought from mentioned some places telling this 3 month story. The finance guy said no way would he do that because it is not worth getting in trouble with the state regulators.
I have never seen another case where they gave a rebate only if you took a loan. It looks like they no longer are doing this with the Mazda6...now it's $1500 instead of $2000, but no requirement to take a loan to get any of it.
Actually Ford has been praised for selling Hybrid Escapes to fleets because it supposedly helps the image. The New York Taxi fleets using them comes to mind off the bat.
argue aboutdiscuss, we don't need to be dragging off-topic vehicles in here just to bicker over what fleet sales mean.Maybe some people have reached the point where they expect even more than excellent from everything. They won't tolerate even the slightest quirks,etc,regardless of what/where/why. A few years ago we couldn't even find a vehicle whose quality would match these of today. Almost every car in this category is miles ahead in the quality race, compared to say 10 yrs ago. Who knows why people respond the way they do to the various questionnaires ? I just don't think you can judge completely by any survey, you have to find out for yourself.
van
<<b>i>you don't know this and neither do I know that they weren't as kristie noted.
Does it bother you BTW that both C&D and later, R&T were also being PAID by Ford as well, that Ford HAD to have them there to lend any sort of credibility to the result that they wanted, and that both publications came up with different results doing comparisons on their own? ENOUGH of this, believe what you want!
honda, ford, nissan, toyota, GM...they all offer something different to consumers, and they are all fallible. you drive what you like, and others drive what they like.
I like nissan - sporty, aggressive styling, fun to drive...not saying it is the best EVER - but the best FOR ME.
like the subject line says...
-thene
I would rather have ABS to avoid an accident than 27 airbags to explode once I am in one.
i'm just saying...
if i wanted ABS, then i'd find a car with ABS...its not that hard.
but if i wanted a car without ABS, its harder to find those over the broad spectrum of cars...
either way, the driving dynamics and styling of the nissans are more appealing to me than the other midsized sedans in this class. not that they are bad cars - im sure they are all fantastic! just not for me...
-thene
You're kidding, right? How is ABS going to prevent someone from hitting YOU? Especially from a side impact.
ABS might allow you to avoid a small percentage of potential accidents whereas airbags will protect you in 100% of potential accidents.
I'll remember that when you get T-boned by a 60,000 pound 70' long Semi-Truck while I use ABS to steer and slow down enough at the same time to avoid him!
Let's see the airbags protect you there!
Airbags protect you in 0% of potential crashes, they only help you in actual crashes. Further, ABS helps to prevent the need for airbags in everything except side impact, which relatively speaking is a small % of total accidents.
One of the reasons the % of side impact accidents is increasing is because the number of rear end collisions is going down because of safety features like ABS.
ABS will allow you to avoid a small percentage of accidents that would otherwise be unavoidable without ABS.
Airbags will provide some level of protection in almost all accidents.
The statement was that ABS was better than airbags if you had to have one or the other.
I say you need both.
Maintenance means little to nothing to a well built reliable and dependable car. My friend raped the hell out of his '94 Prism (Toyota Corrola with GEO emblem on the grill). He floored the little thing wherever he went. It was his first car, he was a teenage driver; you get the picture? He banged it up good, drove it like a madman, and maintained it lazily; he got it to 100,000 miles without spending a dime in repairs (other than maybe some bodywork for "accidents").
I babied and pampered my '95 Neon, oil changes every 3K miles, all the maintenance under the severe schedule recommendations. I had to spend around 5,000 dollars keeping it running; and that includes getting rid of it at 65,000 miles. I can only imagine it might have taken the next owner at least another $10,000 dollars to get that car to 100K miles.
If a car can't be driven agressively, (abused as you say) and still hold up, then it is a piece of junk. Plain and simple. Any high quality vehicle (like my 2003 Honda) can be driven as hard as you want w/o worry of any "problems," granted, you should at least follow a reasonable maintenance schedule if your going to be driving it hard.
Reliability and dependability ratings should not only be based on "best case scenario" maintenance and BABYING it type driving, but also "minimum maintenance" and VERY AGGRESIVE type driving. That is what matters, that is what counts, and that is the true test.
Either way, there is no reason to believe that not maintaining vehicles (because low income people might not do it) would affect reliablity rankings in a way that would make them unreliable data. All car brands and all car models would be equally mis-maintained over a large sample size. Also, Mercedes/Chrysler have reached the bottom of the pit in reliability, and last I checked low income people don't buy them. Honda's and Toyota's are fairly economical, and they are at the top......
Hmm.......
Wow, really. I don't care for the styling myself, but bland??? The excessive chrome grill is certainly not bland. I'm pretty sure if you look up the definition of that word, there is a picture of the current Accord there :P
The best looking of these cars is clearly the Mazda6
The Altima is not appealing to me at all. The only thing the new design accomplishes is to make the previous version look not so bad. Maybe if they did something to make the rear end not look so "heavy"...
I saw an Aura on the road today and I was reminded that it is a very slick looking car, especially the rear 3/4 view. Maybe because there is actually some sheet metal on the car, vs. all tailights and headlamps as on the Altima.
Oh if I get both by all means bring on the balloons to keep my head out of the grill of an SUV driven by someone the phone as they mow through a red light.
I do understand your reluctance to trust a certain brand because of personal expererience... but working in electronics retail showed me that EVERY manufacturerer has problems so if every one of those customers with a bad experience means that brand was bad, well there would be no brands to buy. I will pay attention to blogs and forums to get a gauge of what areas are problematic, but I will always give more weight to studies that gather information from thousands of sources and not just one.
Incorrect!!!! You couldn't be more wrong. Dodge never offered to ante up for fixing my early death faulty tranny in my Dodge. Chrysler didn't come to the rescue either. In fact, when I asked the Dodge dealer why I had to keep coming back and why the car kept breaking down, the reply was, "cars just breakdown, parts just break down." So I was left out in the cold by Chrysler/Dodge. I will never buy an American vehicle again because of THAT tranny failure. The same thing happened to me again in my V6 Accord from 2003, but Honda stepped up and fixed it AFTER warranty technically expired. Not only did they pay to fix it, but they paid for the rental, ordered the new tranny assembly overnight shipping, and got me back on the road on Wednesday after taking the car in on Monday morning. I paid nothing. For the Dodge, I paid about $1,200 to fix it. I will buy a Honda again if I feel like it. I will never ever until hell freezes over and pigs fly on the same day buy a Chrysler made product.
Honda stands behind their products, I have serious doubts about the Big 3. Heck, they might not even exist in 4 years when your tranny fails in that Ford, GM, or Chrysler product, what then, no one to go to for Warranty repairs! Think about that! They will go out of business and screw all of their customers in a heartbeat.
Also, it didn't hurt that the Tranny issue was the ONLY mechanical issue in my Honda, meanwhile the Dodge had 100 problems mechanically, literally.
What other vehicle could I have purchased THAT MEETS or exceeds, get that... MEETS or EXCEEDS (not comes close in some area or other) in November of 2002?
21/30 mpg, 240 HP, very good handling and interior fit and finish, excellent build quality.
if that's what you consider "lightyears" though...i don't know what to tell ya...
-thene
-You are aware that Honda's last gen. 3.5 engine, used in my neighbors Odyssey (and the reworked one is in my Pilot) was removed from the van as oil was not reaching a part of the engine. It was an engineering issue and req'd redesign. This was not publicized because Honda found the issue before it was reported. It req'd removing 22,000 Odyssey engines and shipping them for the work.
-You are aware the last generation Acura MDX had transmission failure issues and so many brake failures that they faced recalls to change the master cylinder. The Civic has also had serious brake issues after 50,000 miles
-You are aware that this generations Accord has had hundreds of thousands of center stack cluster failures (stereo units only).
Consumers are seriously misled if they believe that a car manufacturer is bulletproof and their models are free from defect in engineering or design. Even the best manufacturers deal with recalls as they have to deal with part makers they outsource to. They also sometimes make mistakes in the engineering process.
This is a fact: the level of quality between the best and worst manufacturer today is so small, in defects per 100 vehicles, that the over publication of 'quality' being owned by a few manufacturers is ridiculous. Do most people realize that we are talking about 1 problem (and that problem could be a seatbelt handle as in the Hyundai Sonata) per 100 vehicles between the best and worst. Yet JDPower is making millions publicizing this very subjective data. Fact is that Kia's are just about the same as Lexus's. If you dispute this simply study the data.
In all the examples I've seen, Toyota and Honda stepped up warranties and did what was in their power to minimize the inconvenience to the customer. It was almost like they were ashamed or embarrassed about it.
I am sure others can come up with examples of other manufacturers not taking this route.
A very keen observation.
What comes to mind here are lies, damn lies and statistics. If you believe the data shows Kia is on par with Lexus with regard Lexus' overall track record, I don't know what to say.
There is not a manufacturer on the face of this planet who can claim they have had a perfect track record. Buying a car is a crap shoot. You can end up with a lemon from the worlds best manufacturer. Conversly you can end up with a stellar experience from the world worst manufacturer.
Having said that, I would rather take my chances with some, than with others.
know of one that did exactly this BUT Honda replaced it even though the car was well out of any warranties. However, the whole concept that any manufactuer of anything is somehow exempt from problems is ridiculous, how they handle it once it does happen is something else.
If I remember correctly, the previously mentioned Nissan engine problem, had Nissan suspending 4 cylinder model sales (at the dealer level) as well as discontinuing production until that problem was solved. That, in my mind, is being proactive, and a good example of a responsive mfgr..
Can't compare an SE-V6 to an LX 4-cyl though... SE 4-cyl is the correct comparison. LX 4-cyl has steelies. About the only thing in the EX-V6 to me that actually is nice to have would be the XM sat radio.
Truer words were never written, Captain2.
-thene
I feel the same exact way about our Fusion. I would substitute Fusions for Nissans in your sentence.
Boz
We have a conspiracy theorist here and I am talking about initial quality, which is the first 90 days of ownership. Kia has about 125 problems per 100 vehicle. This is from surveys. Lexus has a little under 100. So we are talking about a very small percentage of problems the owners of Lexus' and Kia's are experiencing in the first 90 days of ownership.
One of our clients bought a Lexus IS250awd and had two problems in the first 90 days. Lexus came and picked up the car and dropped it back off. They also gave her a choice of a gift on both occasions. She was begged not to report the problems on the survey. She didn't. She was very happy still. You believe what you want.
nissan didn't "allow" the problem. It showed up, and was quickly corrected. It can and does happen to every automobile manufacture.
They are in different leagues reliability and quality control wise
no they aren't. I have a 9 yr old nissan in my driveway with 145k miles on it that has not had 1 repair made to it. doesn't get any better than 0
Maintenance means little to nothing to a well built reliable and dependable car
it has everything to do with it. My job involves visiting hundreds of repair shops, and meeting upwards of a thousand mechanics a year. I can quite confidently tell you that the majority of cars being fixed in garages are being fixed because they weren't properly maintained. and yes, I see plenty of hondas, and toyotas; along with every other make of car. The overwhelming number of engines replacements are done because the engine sludged up from lack of proper oil changes. the overwhelming number of radiator/head gasket repairs are made because the cooling system was never flushed. the vast majority of transmissions needing replaced/rebuilt are because they were never flushed. It is absolutely astonishing how people treat their cars. I couldn't count the number of times I've seen a radiator flushed and the water comes out brown with tiny peices of corrosion in it, or the number of times I've seen engines so sludged up that oil couldn't even be poured in because it couldn't drain down. If you in any way doubt this, stop changing your oil and come back in 15,000 miles and let me know how your car is doing.
oh, and I never said much about how you drive it. cars shouldn't be any less reliable if they're driven hard.
they arn't going anywhere. keep in mind, ford still sells about 100k more vehicles a month than honda. at least in the US.
Don't know about Pilots etc, all I can tell about is my Accord. My V6 Accord (03) did have a recall on the transmission. The recall fix obviously worked, because I haven't been seeing much about failing transmissions in 03 V6 Accords. I am at 47k miles and my tranny is working great. I have also heard about the radio displays going out on 03 Accords. I recently received a notice from Honda that the warranty has been extended to 7 years/100k miles for the radio displays. They will also reimburse anyone who has paid for the display before the warranty extension. My display has not gone out, but it is nice to know Honda is standing behind the car if it does.
not enough
In a perfect world, they all would. It's too bad we live in an imperfect world, one where far too many manufacturers respond with "Tough luck buddy. Better luck next time."
This reminds me of one neighbor's car. He never changed the oil, only added some when it got low. It lasted a few years, but it finally burned up. When he took the valve cover off, I could see the word Ford from the valve cover imprinted on the sludge packed in there.
Like the mechanic says, "pay me a little now, or a lot later".
Really? That's pretty comforting.
I drive my cars pretty hard, but not what one might consider abuse. I never drop the clutch, always start cleanly then throttle it. I don't powershift. I usually shift up at 3k RPMs, sometimes 4, less often 5, and rarely redline, but I'm mostly into the throttle pretty good regardless of RPM.
I often wonder if driving less enthusiastically would have a dramatic increase in the longevity of the vehicle. But that wouldn't be any fun! Besides, I can't be too bad as I still see EPA mileage, and at over 5,200 miles the Accord's "maintenance minder" is still showing 30% oil life left (apparently calculated based on accumulated engine revs). I always do the maintenance, full synthetic etc.
What's everyone think? Do you typically drive your midsize sedan more like a sports sedan? If so, do you think it will affect long-term reliabilty?
Oil is kind of funny, and very condition dependant. newer cars run much cleaner than cars of 10yrs ago. Couple that with much improved oil (the addatives) and it tends to stay cleaner a lot longer. someone driving primarily highway miles for moderate distances could very well go 5,6 or more thousand miles without an oil change.
On the flip side, someone driving short distance, stop and go rush hour traffic would be making a huge mistake to change their oil any less than 3k.
And it gives you better mileage and less wear as well, since there's less sludge and gunk circulating. Of course, I also put some oil stabilizer in as well, since the summers out here in CA/NV/etc are brutal and sap viscosity like a vacuum cleaner. Doubly so if it's an older car.
And, yeah - even with a new car, 3K and the oil is dirty and full of gunk. Goes in almost clear and comes out the color of mud. Using that oil life sensor and going 5-6K between changes is what gets you the sludge. Trust your brain and not the gadget I say.
depends a lot on the driving too. For instance, I drive one of my cars 25 miles to work on 4 lane road with no lights or stop signs. the engine has plenty of time to reach proper operating temp, and I don't have any of the slow speed stop and go traffic. At 3k, the oil looks like it just came out of the bottle.
Now my wife on the other hand, drives 7 or 8 miles to and from work through about a dozen traffic lights in stop and go driving. the oil in that car starts to get black at about 2500 miles.
But like you said, its $30 plus they vaccum and wash your windows. when in doubt, just change it.
If it was out of warranty then they had no reason to. Honda's tranny failures were of a different nature and happened early on in the vehicles life in a lot of cases which prompted them to extend the warranty. That's why your Honda transmission was replaced.
Do you really think that if the tranny goes out on a Honda vehicle which is out of warranty, standard or extended, they'll replace the tranny for free? If yes, then head on over here because I have a lot of nice bridges for sale.