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Comments
That is exactly my point. If it wasn't cheaper to buy it wouldn't be doing nearly as well, because of it's shortcomings.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
a condition that the 'American' manufacturers have 'taught' the American carbuyer - if they are going to shop those brands, they EXPECT larger rebates (and other incentives) as you say - something that Buick, for example, specializes in - overpricing a car with those 'built-in' rebates. The Camcord shopper, OTH, is doing well to get close to invoice (except possibly on EOY model changes). And then we wonder why those 'Detroit' brands don't hold their resale values that well, so much so that even the steep discounts can't make them cheaper to own than those Camcords they 'compete' with. And part of the reason why Ford/GM/Chrysler are losing money faster than it can be printed? Wouldn't it be nice for those same mfgrs. if they made a car that was good enough and/or in demand (the two kinda go together) enough that MSRP and invoice meant something?
Actually my fleet safety weekly email had a blurb about how the costs in the rental car industry are skyrocketing because there is no longer the dumping vehicles to fleet sales there has been in the past. Other than a cost increase for rentals, I don't see this adversely affecting the overall market so much.
They also had a blurb about how GM and Ford residuals percentages increased by double digits in the last year, crediting the Fulan/Edge.
I didn't even look at these when I bought my Accord in February, because I knew I'd want one! The Accord was also on my short list and since they were all marked $300 under invoice at the local dealer, and the Altimas were brand new and selling for MSRP, the deal made the final choice for me.
RE: the Milan... you stated: "The 5-speed is pretty smooth to operate, but the car should either have a 6th gear or the gearing revised, because it revs higher than the 2.5S 6-speed at highway velocities, and I'm sure it affects both the NVH and fuel economy."
When I drove the Fusion 5-speed I never got to highway speeds, what RPM was it running?
At 80 MPH my Accord is spinning 3,000. I't doesn't bother me because NVH isn't an issue, and my old 626 V6 used to spin 4,000 at the same speed (7k redline).
What RPM does the Nissan 2.5 6-speed turn in 6th?
Crap, you had to ask me that...
I don't remember exactly (since my wife was driving at the time), but IIRC, I THINK it was 3500 RPM at 75 MPH (give or take).
What RPM does the Nissan 2.5 6-speed turn in 6th?
I don't recall this one, but it was quieter than the Milan (in terms of engine noise) at speed. Between that, the 35 MPG rating for highway (compared to 31 for the Milan), and the extra cog, I'll assume that it's lower than the Milan. I could be wrong, but I'll find out for sure when I get the car.
Is the '08 Aura a better car than those were? Well, generationally speaking, I don't know that you can say that. Its hardly groundbreaking considering its competition. But sure, its appealing. At this point, though, I want PROOF that it will hold up for a good 7-8 years. And obviously we won't get that proof for a while.
So I'd really hesitate to buy it.
So I'd really hesitate to buy it.
There's no way any mid-size car manufacturer can meet that standard, since the 2007 or 2008 or 2009 model is going to be considerably different than a 2000, 2001 or 2002 model.
Assuming the Honda Accord to be the best 2000, there is no guarantee that the much-altered 2007 will equal its reliability, endurance, etc. because so many changes will have been made in the interim.
Cars are like stocks: Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Buying any new mid-size is a crap shoot. Some makes and models are going to be better than others, no matter what.
The 2007 Aura might be the best mid-size sedan GM has ever built and it may be trouble-free into 2014 but that doesn't necessarily mean that the 2014 model will fare as well.
If a manufactuer--say, Honda--consistenly builds reliable cars, every year, than there is a much, much greater chance--both statistically and rhetorically--that they will continue to do so. CR is generally willing to give reliability recommendations on new models when the previous model performed very well for the life of the car for that reason, and past performance is a very reliable indicator of (no pun intended) reliability.
And really, this goes beyond mid-size cars. General Motors, for instance, has consistent long term reliability issues across all models--many of them are shared-component problems (ie, brakes). That could well change, but it will be a while before we know. It doesn't take 7-8 years (though I did mention that), I think we'll probably have a good idea in 3-4 or so. But what I speak of is an overall problem. According to many CSR's at GM dealers I've spoken with (and, unfortunately, I've gotten to know them very well), the problems we've experienced with our Malibu also show up on G6, Trailblazer, the minivans, etc. They're more systematic than anything else.
The other issue which I didn't bring up is how a manufacturer treats these issues when they do come up. GM's got a ways to do here, also.
Several of Honda's outboard marine engines use basically what is in their cars. THe civic 4cyl is used in Honda's medium HP outboards and the Odyssey 3.5L v6 is the basis for the 225hp Honda outboard. If an engine can hold up to marine use and can pretty much withstand anything. Honda is always one of the tops in reliability in the marine category too. Amazingly, a HOnda 225hp outboard engine costs more than a whole civic.
Of course, as mentioned above, this is no gaurantee of how the Aura or any other GM built today will fare into the future. But past performance is really all we have to go by as far as estimating long-term reliability. How well can we estimate that? Probably not too well.
An interesting note: during my short stint as a car salesman, I sold a Mustang GT automatic to a middle-aged man who used to calibrate the machines used to build engines at Ford. He was very specific on getting the 4.6L V8 instead of any other Ford engine for "durability purposes." He had no interest in the performance potential, and his wife was going to be the main driver. On the test drive, she didn't even rev it past 2,500 RPM.
He stated, and I can't remember his source, that when domestic companies engineered car parts, they set certain ranges for the various parameters the engineers had to work with: what materials may be used, how much the finished part would cost to make, and how long it would last.
The funny thing was, he told me, that if the part was designed outside of the ranges either way... too expensive OR too cheap, wears out too fast in testing OR lasts too long... it was rejected. They didn't want their cars to last too long or their parts sell too cheap.
Is this true? I certainly don't know, and I have absolutely no evidence whatsoever. But after my experience with my 2004 Ford, it certainly wouldn't surprise me.
Only makes sense to me as well - and it works in both directions. CR, for whatever fault or differences we all might have with their particular priorities, is the only organization I know of that does things like reliability studies/comparison tests/satisfaction surveys and is not beholden to anybody for whatever results they come up with. As such it should be taken seriously by those consumers valuing an 'intelligent' purchase decision.
I have noticed that CR does have a tendency to 'recommend' a car earlier than they might otherwise if it happens to be from a mfgr. that has a superior track record as opposed to one that doesn't. I have no problem with this, but we probably also need to understand that sooner or later all things change and that as all cars are improving from a reliability standpoint,that this (reliability) may eventually become a non-factor especially for those of us that usually buy our cars new. It wasn't all that long ago that a car was deemed junk at 50 or 60k (and generally was), nowadays that's barely broken in...
So thats 2 visits for one thing, and if that one thing goes wrong twice, that's 4 visits already!!! You can reach 6 to 8 visits easy. The reason I still consider HOnda's to be bulletproof are many:
1) It was a first year model and not built in Japan
2) The japanese built/assembled Civics we've had have been bulletproof and required no return visits, thats is 0 visits.
3) It was for things like window moldings rippling and wrinkling and a powerseat that functioned but "bumped" a tad bit at the end of its "track." I'm picky.
4) It had two rattle sources to deal with.
These are forgiveable offenses; what isn't forgiveable are things that leave you stranded because the car won't start (never happened with any Honda) or things that cost you money you shouldn't have to spend (Honda steps up if something does go wrong, even after warranty).
So Hip hip hooray for Honda!
Excellent choice. I checked it out at the dealer too when buying my weekend beater, an 06 Frontier, a few months ago. The interior is much nicer and I love the looks of the car. Nissan got it right again. They build a great product.
My sentiments exactly!!!
Why would I pay X amount of dollars for 200 HP and 30 MPG when I can get (for about the same amount of money) 250 HP and 31 MPG? It's a tough sell.
You have to do a X-$$$ equation to get it to be considered by anyone paying attention.
There is traceable accurate history on all makes and models. And history shows certain companies to be quite dependable, reliable, and consistant.
This is shown for years and years, and can therefore lead to solid predictions. It is sort of like a batter that hits for a .330+ average 10 years in a row. Do you really think in year 11 he's going to hit under .300?
They are both approx $24k plus tax, tag and title.
2007 Altima 3.5SE manual
2007 Mazdaspeed6 Sport manual
comments?
can i get better deals on either of these cars?
They are both approx $24k plus tax, tag and title.
2007 Altima 3.5SE manual
2007 Mazdaspeed6 Sport manual
That would be a tough one. The Mazda looks better, but the Altima would probably have more room inside. I would go with the Altima, mainly because it's a V6.
So which history do you go by? Pre-2005 or Post-2005? Don't you think post-2005 is a better predictor for 2008?
The Camcord problems affected what? A tenth of a tenth of a percent of their sales? I had multiple, major headaches with my 96 Taurus. I'll go with Honda's legacy all day. Ford's legacy is tainted bigtime in my house. I'll ever buy another one. Any domestic consideration goes to GM.
The Olds intrigue was actually a good car. My brother has the 3.5L DOHC engine and its quite smooth unlike the 3800 engine. But the Alero is junk you are correct.
Look at it logically (and this works for any vehicle):
You have a one year old model, and it is totaled, stolen, or you just had to sell/trade... the value of your car as determined by most pricing books, an insurance adjuster, used car manager, appraiser or private buyer, etc. will roughly be:
The average selling price of a brand new model, less any incentives currently available, minus a percentage (say, 10-30% based on other factors of depreciation such as current demand and past history).
So if the new versions of your one year old model are still selling well at close to MSRP with no incentives, your resale value will be just fine. Alternately, if the new models are selling at invoice or less plus have heavy incentives, than the value of your one year old model has to be adjusted down accordingly.
In the case of the Tundra, I'd say yes, their resale value won't be great (maybe not horrible, but not great) until Toyota stops the discounting and/or incentives.
I'll admit, I think this means that right now, my 2007 Accord with 6k miles is worth slightly less than a 2007 Altima with 6k miles, because an Altima with the same MSRP will cost you more new (less discounts, no factory to dealer incentives that I am aware of). That's OK, because I paid less. However, later this year when the 2008 Accords are out and the deals on the 2007s have dried up, the two 2007 cars should be roughly equal in resale value again.
Of course this is all relative... If you bought your car before any discounting/incentives began or just didn't buy right, then you'll be more affected than someone who took advantage of all the discounts/incentives. "Bigh high / sell low" versus "buy low / sell low."
Cars are not investments, but if you buy the right car sometimes you can "buy low / sell high."
They are both approx $24k plus tax, tag and title.
2007 Altima 3.5SE manual
2007 Mazdaspeed6 Sport manual
comments?
can i get better deals on either of these cars?
Oh mannnn I so want a MazdaSpeed6. But alas, the features and content of the Altima 3.5SE are probably considerably more than that of the "spartan(?)" MazdaSpeed sport.
After comparing a bit, maybe I take that back, the sunroof, leather, heated seats, etc are optional on both, and the MS6 actually come standard with the HID and Bose, while the Altima makes you kick down for it.
I had an Intrigue with the 3.5L. It WAS a good car--fun to drive, very good powertrain, nice features. It just didn't hold up well. The Maxx is also pretty well designed--there is an amazing amount of room in it, its very useful, fuel efficient and a good value. Again, durability is a problem--particularly the brakes. But we'll be holding on to that car for a while--it only has 26k.
My point here though is that you can't have a discussion about these cars without considering the history of their manufacturer. Some have more to prove than others.
And btw--overall first year reliability of the Camry has been above average. And I'm willing to bet it will be for the Accord too. The Fusion has been a pleasant surprise, but I'd still want to see data from the next couple of years before being completely confident.
I'd be probably be a little more predisposed to like the Fusion if not for those ridiculous, inaccurate, unethical "challenge" ads they show in which they compare to a loaded Fusion to a stripped 4 cyl Camry and Accord and then claim that the Fusion "wins." Yeah, no kidding.
I agree it was flawed, but we've beat it to death already.
It's the same 3.0 V6 isn't it?
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I'm only going to point out that the test was between fully loaded top of the line V6 models, not stripped 4 cylinders. The Accord and Camry had stability control while the Fusion had AWD for the same price. That was the only difference.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I consider that to be a positive, not a negative.
"Ford Motor Company's modern 2.5 L and 3.0 L V6 automobile engines are evolutions of the same design, first used in the 1994 Ford Mondeo. This line is sold under the brand name "Duratec", as are many other engines.
The Mondeo V6 is a modern aluminum DOHC V6 with a 60° bank angle. The primary engineering input came from Porsche, who were developing a similar V6 before selling the engineering to Ford, and Cosworth, who helped with cylinder head manufacturing. The Jaguar AJ-V6 engine is similar but adds variable valve timing. Mazda's AJ version also has this feature."
Duratec 30
"The 3.0 L Duratec 30 or Mazda AJ was introduced in 1996 as a replacement for the 232 in³ (3.8 L) Essex V6 in the Taurus/Sable. It has 2967 cc of displacement and produces between 200 and 240 hp (150 and 180 kW). The same basic engine is used in the Jaguar S-Type, Lincoln LS, Mazda MPV, Mazda6, Mondeo ST220 and many other Ford vehicles. It is essentially a bored-out (to 89 mm) Duratec 25 and is built in Ford Motor Company's Cleveland, OH #2 plant. A slightly modified version for the Ford Five Hundred entered production at the Cleveland, OH #1 plant in 2004.
There are two key versions of the Duratec 30:
DAMB - The Lincoln LS and Jaguar AJ30 versions have direct-acting mechanical bucket (DAMB) tappets. Output is 232 hp (173 kW) at 6750 RPM with 220 ft·lbf (298 N·m) of torque at 4500 rpm.
RFF - The Taurus/Sable/Escape version uses roller finger followers (RFF) instead and produces 201 hp (150 kW) at 5900 RPM with 207 ft·lbf (281 N·m) of torque at 4400 rpm.
The 2006 Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, and Lincoln Zephyr feature a version of the Duratec 30 utilizing variable valve timing. The engine has an output of 221 hp (165 kW) at 6250 rpm, and 205 ft·lbf (278 N·m) of torque at 4800 rpm.
A Twin-turbocharged version of this engine is used in the Noble M400, a British supercar. The engine is rebuilt and tuned to a max power of 425 bhp @ 6500 rpm, with a torque figure of 390 ft·lbf @ 5000 rpm. Noble has used forged pistons, an oil cooler, a larger baffled oil sump and extra cooling ducts to maintain its durability.
Mazda's MZI version adds variable valve timing, as does Jaguar's AJ30. Note that the MZI name is also used in Europe on Mazda's version of the Ford Sigma I4. The 3.0 L, 226 hp V6 used in the Mondeo ST220 is called Duratec ST. The 3.0 L, 204 hp V6 in the Mondeo Titanium is called Duratec SE."
What recalls would those be? Don't think they actually recalled even the sludging problem they had on the previous generation of V6s. Recalls, in fact, tend to be related to safety issues. There has been a whole 1 recall on my 05 Avalon TMK (a steering column weld) and a coupla of non-safety related TSBs (Tranny programming and a timing chain cover leak). The car is actually doing better (after over 50k) that I would have anticipated being a completely new car with, at that time, an unproven drivetrain. Broke a cardinal rule (never buy a truly new model its first year), and only something that I would've even considered with a Toyota/Honda/Nissan product. So far so good. The same thing with a GM/Ford/Chrysler product? No way, I'll continue to trust a long established history!
Depends how you look at it. On one hand you use an old powertrain to make your "new" vehicle reliable during its launch. On the other hand you end up with a vehicle that has 50 less HP, less refinement (IMO) and gets the same or worse FE compared to the competition.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
You are correct, it does depend on how you look at it. I prefer to see this particular glass of water as being half full instead of half empty. The refined 3.0-liter, 221-horsepower V6 Duratec engine in our 2007 Fusion produces plenty of "git up and go," is smooth and quiet while doing so.
Gas mileage, however, is not so good when coupled with AWD. It's 14.8 in all-city driving after seven months and 3,700 miles on the car. The revised EPA estimate for this power train is 17 mpg city; 24 mpg highway. Nothing to write home about.
Without AWD, 3.0-liter V6 owners typically get 20 mpg in town, according to the forums I visit. I fully expect this 2007 Fusion to last seven or eight years.