Midsize Sedans 2.0

wolverinejoe80 · August 2007

love mazda 6, but this accord kills mazda 6's interior material. it's too busy for my taste, but i can't argue against the material.

dimon12 · August 2007

Is it me or is it that Honda did away with cool electroluminiscent (optitron) gauges of the prev generation and replaced them with ~~cheaper~~ overstyled regular ones?

baggs32 · August 2007

love mazda 6, but this accord kills mazda 6's interior material. it's too busy for my taste, but i can't argue against the material.

I'm not sure how you guys can say that? :confuse: The silver plastic in those pictures looks exactly the same to me as what was in the 6 before they changed the center stack to all black. The entire dash and most of the doors of the 6 are covered in a soft material that has been compared to leather by MT or C&D. I can't remember which one. Here, MT comments on the quality of the interior materials in the 6.

The soft textures and surface coverings are unusually good and would be at home in any aspirational European sedan. Overall, the cabin of the Mazda 6s is highly functional, tasteful, and slightly more high-end than the other two in this test.

The "other two" were the Altima and the Jetta. I don't think anyone here will argue that VW makes some mighty fine interiors.

Have you guys that keep dogging the interior of the 6 ever acutually sat in one and touched the materials or are you going by pictures?

baggs32 · August 2007

Be frank, would a sport mode ATX make it light years ahead? No, and if it did have it, would you say it is light years ahead? No again.

Honestly, no it wouldn't. But I was expecting more. Maybe a DSG or something of the like. You Honda boys are quick to point out what other mfrs left out of their cars and are equally quick to defent Honda's blatant omissions. How are we to call this new Accord class leading when it doesn't match or better the competition in any way?

elroy5 · August 2007

The "other two" were the Altima and the Jetta. I don't think anyone here will argue that VW makes some mighty fine interiors.

If they were talking about the current Altima (and not an 03 model), a Passat (not the Jetta), or an Accord interior, I would be impressed. But those two were pretty easy to beat, IMO.

baggs32 · August 2007

It appears some folks have some serious mis-conceptions about the Mazda6 and what it is all about. I'm betting the next 6 will be a pretty serious sports sedan and keep all these other cars in it's rear view mirror. I have no proof of that, and weight could prove me wrong, but I think Mazda will come through once more.

03accordman · August 2007

Please don't generalize; if there are some people you have a drudge against, take that out to their posts; not mine.

The Accord has always been a car that is good at most things it does, not always the best in any one category; this iteration seems to be following the same lines.

baggs32 · August 2007

So you're telling me that you think the Jetta's interior is low rent then? That's literally the first time I've ever heard someone speak negatively about a VW interior.

03accordman · August 2007

"It appears some folks have some serious mis-conceptions about the Mazda6 and what it is all about. I'm betting the next 6 will be a pretty serious sports sedan and keep all these other cars in it's rear view mirror. I have no proof of that, and weight could prove me wrong, but I think Mazda will come through once more."

Really, no one denies that hte Mazda6 handled better than the Accord; however, that was the end of its superiority over the Accord. Everything else, including engines, refinement power, fuel economy, interior fit and finish were always better than the 6 (IMO). I have no doubt that the new 6 will be a good car, expecially since mazda executives addmitted that the reason for the failure of the 6 in the US market was due to its slightly smaller size compared to its competitors. I am expecting a larger car this time around. Hopefully, they can keep the zoom-zoom DNA and extend it to superior engines as well.

I will be in the market for a mid sizer in mid 2009 (when my current 330i lease runs out); be then both these cars will have been in the market for a year plus; things will be much clearer.

03accordman · August 2007

"Have you guys that keep dogging the interior of the 6 ever acutually sat in one and touched the materials or are you going by pictures?"

I frequently rent Mazda6 cars; have always liked the way they drive. Interior fit and finish (to me) is not upto Accord standards, and the new Accord goes one up (I especially liked the pictures with the wood interior); having said that, the new 6 is due soon, so we can compare new to new.

03accordman · August 2007

Sorry, you are the one wrong here. When the Sonata came out, i had to do a double take to tell them apart (at least initially). If you read my posts from then, I always maintained that the Sonata's tail lamps were a better form of the Accord's; my views remain the same. Most of the automotive press out there (and this has been discussed to death) said as much; so I was not alone in this line of thought.

03accordman · August 2007

":This is the Honda-holic's attitude in spades... whatever facts don't fit with their view, they ignore. Ok, how about braking, where the Accord stops 10 feet longer according to the Edmunds midsize comparo - or were you thinking a bigger # is better? Or how about that the Accord tested in the same comparo to be able to do the slalom at 60 mph where the Mazda6 was able to do it at 65 mph. The Accord has many strengths, but to overstate and exaggerate how good it is does nothing but make me think you are a indeed a Honda-holic"

Same as every post of yours makes me think you are a Mazda-holic (nothing worng with it). I have always maintained Handling wise the 6 is superior to the Accord - the slalom superiority would come in there, right? Or are your glasses too tinted to see praise from unexpected quarters? As for brakes, I changed to Potenza RE950s and the braking improved significantly. The brake feel of the Accord has always been superb.

By the way, I don't even drive an Accord now; have a sport pkg equipped 330i, so I do know a bit about handling/slalom/brakes.

elroy5 · August 2007

The new Accord looks like a fine car, and I think it will at least retain it's current status in this segment. It has a little more of everything compared to my 03 EX V6. If I was in need of a car right now, I would be looking at the equipment options and colors right now, and anticipating a test drive. I don't see myself growing tired of my current car anytime soon though.

The bar has been raised.

backy · August 2007

I can understand why some people (who do not have an eye for details) would think that the taillamps of the '03-05 Accord resemble those of the '06+ Sonata. They both have a horizontal orientation, wrap from the rear quarter panel into the trunk lid, and have red and white lenses. The resemblence stops there, however, and I can't see any substantiation for your claim that the lamps on the Sonata are copies of those on the Accord. The shape is totally different. But Honda has fixed that for '08.

But at the risk of boring everyone to death, maybe we should agree to disagree and move on.

03accordman · August 2007

"it does look similar. are you kidding? the shape of the tail light is almost identical if you don't look at the part that is attached to trunk"

Wow, you gius sure must be kidding. Half a tail lamp similarity. How about this; the Accord's tail lamp mimics every cars out there with white reverse lights???? Maybe the car itself also mimics other cars, since it has 4 black tires?

03accordman · August 2007

"I can understand why some people (who do not have an eye for details) would think that the taillamps of the '03-05 Accord resemble those of the '06+ Sonata."

Please don't imply 'eye for detail superiority' and then ask to agree to disagree. You are not ready to agree that the 03 Accord's and the Sonata's tail lamps were similar, but want us to believe the 08 Accord's tail lamps look like the Sonata's, when there is no lamp on the trunk? Eye for detail or convenient memory?

backy · August 2007

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=58887

backy · August 2007

Ah, now you get it! You've no doubt remembered all the people who said the Sonata stole the Accord's rear end, when there was only a slight resemblence, yet now you don't see those same people admitting the resemblence in the other direction. Because a Honda can't look like a Hyundai (or a Kia, as in Optima), can it?

wolverinejoe80 · August 2007

i loved the exterior, and loved the way it drove, but just couldn't stand 6's plastic. similar with sonata, but i prefer sonata's interior(if it was all black like platinum edition) than mazda 6.

anyway, the only thing i like(look wise) about this accord is the interior even though it seems too busy and less ergonomic. i'm pretty much sure that i would like the new mazda 6's styling much better than the new accord because any mazda products are more sportier than honda. and i'm sporty kinda guy. i'm certain mazda will upgrade their interior material because both of their suv's look great in and out.

03accordman · August 2007

"Ah, now you get it! You've no doubt remembered all the people who said the Sonata stole the Accord's rear end, when there was only a slight resemblence, yet now you don't see those same people admitting the resemblence in the other direction. Because a Honda can't look like a Hyundai (or a Kia, as in Optima), can it"

Wow Backy; that's so original. Please go back to the time the Sonata was launched; you will see I was one of the first few who said the tail lamps resembled the Accord's and I liked their design so much that even said that this should have been the design on the Accord.

Af for your second point; I hate proving you wrong twice in a few minutes; please see my first few posts on the 08 Accord; I said that the headlamps of the Accord seem to resemble the Sonata's. Wish you had read the posts before commenting blindly. That's what happens when you generalize without support.

moparbad · August 2007

It looks exactly like a Porsche.....a 1954 Porsche-Allgaier P312 coffee tractor that is.
I'm making a ridiculous statement as I'm weary of hearing "it looks like xxxxx" every time a new model of any vehicle is introduced.
I like the new Accords styling on the outside, don't like the inside. KISS!

m1miata · August 2007

Well the Accord is starting to look a bit blended, as most cars seem to be. People say the Aura was the fresh look or a Sonata is sort of like this or that, and well they all look like a blend of Euro knock-offs. I think the starting point was Passat for the Altima, which was pretty cool for the bucks, and the Camry has the bangle butt off the BMW3. Oh heck, what is the difference, since 1968 it has all been downhill. The Big 3 had the look back then. And in Euro cars, well I don't know, they had great looking sports cars dating back to 1950's. For the most part, the mid-sized and full sized cars are now all too tall doors, with some having the chop top look. Great, just great, like I want a modern day Merc chop top. Even sports cars have the too tall doors, and you now sit in a bathtub to drive. Very few graceful looking cars, and few with any wow factor at all. I wouldn't mind some though, like an SLK. In a mid-sized sedan, my '07 Accord looks fine, nothing over the top and nothing to right home about, just modern and areo dynamic. Not quite a Jag for looks though

There is the new Malibu, which once again looks like another nicely blended car, as in all the rest. The new Bimmer 3 are looking pretty good. Altima I guess is the only less expensive car with some extra style.
L

elroy5 · August 2007

Because a Honda can't look like a Hyundai (or a Kia, as in Optima), can it?

Doesn't seem like that would be a logical thing to do. If I am Honda, I am looking to emulate designs from higher end cars, or higher selling cars. Not cars that sell a fraction of what my car does.

thegraduate · August 2007

No, they still appear to be electroluminiscent, much like the CR-V's. They don't show up really obviously in pictures, but they are.

zzzoom6 · August 2007

AS for performance, we haven't seen any Mazda 6 beat an Accords performance, and I don't expect that to change. says 03accordman

Then I said: This is the Honda-holic's attitude in spades... whatever facts don't fit with their view, they ignore. Ok, how about braking, where the Accord stops 10 feet longer according to the Edmunds midsize comparo - or were you thinking a bigger # is better? Or how about that the Accord tested in the same comparo to be able to do the slalom at 60 mph where the Mazda6 was able to do it at 65 mph. The Accord has many strengths, but to overstate and exaggerate how good it is does nothing but make me think you are a indeed a Honda-holic.

then 03accordman responded with: I have always maintained Handling wise the 6 is superior to the Accord - the slalom superiority would come in there, right? Or are your glasses too tinted to see praise from unexpected quarters?

Ok, try to reconcile your two statements...they contradict each other a bit eh? I'm more than happy to accept compliments from others, particularly from "unexpected" people. But look at your first statement...where was the praise exactly? Seems to me you were saying that the accord was, and will continue to be (even though you have yet to drive one and no review of the new accord has said that it is the handling leader in this class) superior in all aspects including performance. Did I paraphrase you incorrectly by being too literal in defining your own words?

And as to my bias, everyone who has followed my posts will know that I like Honda and I like Accords. But for my wants and needs, the Mazda6 was the smarter choice, especially considering I was able to get it for 4K less than a comparable Accord. Believe me, I was surprised that the Mazda6 was my ultimate choice... it was barely on my radar when I first started looking with the Accord 6 speed and the Legacy GT far out in front. In the end, I'm glad I kept an open mind. But just because I now own one, does not make me dislike everything else... hardly, I have and continue to recommend other car manufacturers to friends and acquantances if their wants and needs seem to not fit Mazda. But I will not hesitate to correct people who try to misrepresent the Mazda6 with things that are untrue.

Anyways, here's some pics of my Mazda6 circa 2005 (the 06 and 07 have a black center stack). And the seat material is not the same as stock...after reading about a fraying issue on the older cloth seats, I got them changed before I had a problem.:

zzzoom6 · August 2007

I have to admit that I'm too much of a (I want power and I want gas mileage at the same time!) kind of a guy to have ever even test driven the Mazda 6. When you combine somewhat poor gas mileage with somewhat poor power at the same time, you won't get on my "gotta have it list."

Aren't you the one with the Fusion? I haven't heard you complain about the amount of power in your car even though you have power sapping awd and an automatic yet we share the same engine. And when a couple car magazines have tested the Mazda6 w/ mtx 0-60 times in the mid 6 seconds, I'm not too sure where you can reasonably say "somewhat poor power". Yeah, 215 hp vs 268 hp is a big difference, but it's more what a car can do with the power that matters IMO. 0-60 times differ with the higher HP cars by about .5 of a second... not that big of a difference. And it's not like I'm looking to beat every car at a stoplight off the line anyway. That's why I prefer a car that handles well in turns and in braking rather than a car that drag races really well.

As far as gas mileage goes, there was a couple weeks where I was doing all office work so I was only doing city driving with a few hills and tons of stop and go in traffic on the way home. I got 18 mpg in that all city driving. And on my longer business trips, I got 27 mpg plus while averaging 80 mph the majority of the way on a highway that had a fair amount of hills. This is better mpg than the new Accord coupe w/ v-6! And I am not gentle on the throttle either... while not rabidly tailgating and manically speeding, if the opportunity presents itself to pass someone or take a corner quicker than most, I will do so. And on the highway, the ratio of cars I pass vs being passed is around 10:1. Now I have no doubt if I were driving an Accord v-6 w/ a mtx, I'd probably get better mpg... but how much gas can I buy with the $4000 I saved when I got the Mazda6 vs the Accord? Probably a lot.

targettuning · August 2007

You sir raise the bar on Honda..itis (a disease where the affected person cannot see beyond a certain chrome "H" wherever it may be placed) Boy this IS funny.

pat · August 2007

We need to get away from characterizing each other and stick to the cars.

baggs32 · August 2007

Interior fit and finish (to me) is not upto Accord standards, and the new Accord goes one up

Unfortunately we weren't talking about fit and finish but rather the actual quality of the interior materials. At least I wasn't anyway.

Look at the pics zzzoom posted of his 6's interior and tell me how the shiny silver plastic in the new Accord is any different than what you see there. If what you've been renting are newer copies of the 6 then you are probably seeing the newer all black center stack which IMO is a step down from the original silver and the silver in the Accord and Camry. The entire dash and most of all the doors in the 6 are covered with a high quality, soft to the touch material that has a leather grain look to it.

So you could be right about the fit and finish between the two but honestly, fit and finish are not on my radar anymore because I haven't owned a car with rattles or squeaks inside since our '96 Civic. And even in that car the squeaks and rattles didn't show up for 3 or 4 years. I'm not concerned with a few mm between panel pieces as long as they don't make noise. I'm not actually concerned with the quality of the interior materials either and tend to focus on the driving experience when I'm shopping. Not everyone does that, hence our discussion of interiors.

joe97 · August 2007

Let me start by saying the new Accord looks alright but certainly reminded me of various others, Honda Ridgeline (grill), Hyundai Sonata (headlight), Passat, Saturn, Bimmer, etc...

As for the Accord/Sonata revelation, it has been proven the Sonata did not copy Accord's rear taillight, as the design froze long before the debut of the Accord in question. I believe backy mentioned it earlier, the Sonata's inspiration came from an A6.

backy · August 2007

Did you realize I was not talking only about you and your opinions? I thought so, as you accused me of generalizing without support, but maybe not.

The Sonata's taillamps would have looked strange on the '03 Accord, IMO. The Sonata's lamps fit its rear end perfectly--which is why Hyundai chose that design; not because it bore even a faint resemblance to the Accord's lamps.

Just as Honda had no intention of copying anyone (except its own TL, perhaps) with the '08 Accord design. But as I've said a few times before, there are only so many ways to bend sheet metal and make lamps that fit the car body while meeting regulations and being aesthetically pleasing.

moparbad · August 2007

Did you realize I was not talking only about you and your opinions? I thought so, as you accused me of generalizing without support, but maybe not.

I'll go out on a limb and predict that the Accord will be a sales success and sell even more Accords in 2008 than 2007.

The sniping will be irrelevant.

thegraduate · August 2007

I'm going to have to agree with backy in post 4205. There are only so many ways to style a 5-passenger sedan, and they are bound to resemble yet another 5-passenger sedan.

We've all been over this anyway; great style is in the eye of the beholder. Saying someone likes all things out of one particular brand just because of the brand name doesn't progress the conversation, even if it may be true. But putting words in someone's mouth won't help things here.

Let's all take one of two things... a deep breath, or a Valium.

backy · August 2007

Yes, I think the Camry's stay at the top of the car sales charts will be short-lived--assuming Honda can make enough Accords and isn't too tight on pricing.

backy · August 2007

Did you see the road test from Edmunds.com, which I posted yesterday? Also they have a separate test of the coupe.

I expect we'll see reports in the auto mags like C/D and MT with their October issues (due out around Sep. 1).

urnews · August 2007

I expect we'll see reports in the auto mags like C/D and MT with their October issues (due out around Sep. 1).

I won't be surprised when Car & Driver and Motor Trend give the 2008 Accord rave reviews. That's what they always do. The Accord and Camry are fine automobiles, to be sure, but I'm not so certain they actually deserve all of the accolades they receive.

andres3 · August 2007

First of all, I think you have me confused with another Andres, or Andre1969???

I opted for the 2003 Accord LX V6 Coupe back in November of 2002, and kept it for 65,000 miles, 50 months, and sold it for 53% of the out the door 25K price I got it for (had 16" polished aluminum alloy wheels thrown in to make it every bit as good as the EX V6 Coupe (except for no leather and no moonroof; things that I didn't want anyway).

I averaged 25-26 MPG in mixed driving with heavy San Diego traffic and I drive much like you do, if not slightly more aggressively (a lot as you described), with probalby a 15:1 ratio of passing people to being passed. On long trips, even driving through LA traffic (always a hiccup), I was able to average 30 MPG going 80-85 MPH whenever I could and traffic would allow. All this with just the 5 speed Auto.

In regards to preferring a great handler and braker to a great drag racer, I say this: I want both! Why can't you have the best of both? Or at least NEAR the best of both?

03accordman · August 2007

AS for performance, we haven't seen any Mazda 6 beat an Accords performance, and I don't expect that to change. says 03accordman

"Then I said: This is the Honda-holic's attitude in spades... whatever facts don't fit with their view, they ignore. Ok, how about braking, where the Accord stops 10 feet longer according to the Edmunds midsize comparo - or were you thinking a bigger # is better? Or how about that the Accord tested in the same comparo to be able to do the slalom at 60 mph where the Mazda6 was able to do it at 65 mph. The Accord has many strengths, but to overstate and exaggerate how good it is does nothing but make me think you are a indeed a Honda-holic.

then 03accordman responded with: I have always maintained Handling wise the 6 is superior to the Accord - the slalom superiority would come in there, right? Or are your glasses too tinted to see praise from unexpected quarters?

Ok, try to reconcile your two statements...they contradict each other a bit eh? I'm more than happy to accept compliments from others, particularly from "unexpected" people. But look at your first statement...where was the praise exactly? Seems to me you were saying that the accord was, and will continue to be (even though you have yet to drive one and no review of the new accord has said that it is the handling leader in this class) superior in all aspects including performance. Did I paraphrase you incorrectly by being too literal in defining your own words?"

When I said performance, I was referring to power/acceleration/fuel economy. Was not referring to handling, which I already agreed to be better on the 6. See any contraditcion there?

03accordman · August 2007

Baggs, the fit is responsible for rattles (or lack of), the finish is a different thing altogether. Finish is the actual finishing of the interior, which to me has been better on the Accord.

andres3 · August 2007

I understood you to mean performance NOT including handling. Though some might put handling INSIDE the word performance.

Kind of like the way Bill Clinton defined "sex" or sexual relations. Simply a misunderstanding.

mz6greyghost · August 2007

I won't be surprised when Car & Driver and Motor Trend give the 2008 Accord rave reviews. That's what they always do.

Not exactly a rave review:C&D First Drive

03accordman · August 2007

"Did you realize I was not talking only about you and your opinions? I thought so, as you accused me of generalizing without support, but maybe not."

Now you are spinning it. You were referring to my particular post, not to anyone esle. You said I 'remembered' that at the Sonata introduction some people said that it's taillamps resembled the Accords, and then you added that 'honda can't copy Hyundai' or something to that effect. Sir, it was directed at my post, and when referred to my earlier post where I had said that I felt the headlamps looked like a Sonata's, you conveniently backtracked and said you were replying to other posters as well. Not true.

Anyway, I am not getting into a discussion of who copies who, neither was that my intent here.

andres3 · August 2007

Given that both the Accord and Camry have legendary reputations for reliability lasting decades and decades, I think no amount of accolades could be MORE than they deserve.

mz6greyghost · August 2007

Plus, we've already seen several teaser shots of the new Mazda6. When will we have specs, photos and first impressions of that car?

The 6 is scheduled to debut at Frankfurt early next month (press days are Sept. 11-12, open to public on Sept. 13-23). I'm sure the info and pics will be pouring in before the show is open to the public.

baggs32 · August 2007

Baggs, the fit is responsible for rattles (or lack of), the finish is a different thing altogether. Finish is the actual finishing of the interior, which to me has been better on the Accord.

I know. But again, we were talking about the quality of the materials. Not how they fit or how good they looked all grouped together in one big piece. The plastics and other materials in the 6 and the Accord are extremely similar. How they look all mashed together is where the difference lies and that varies from person to person. I think they both look just fine and certainly wouldn't base my purchase one having a slightly tighter fit than the other.

baggs32 · August 2007

If they were talking about the current Altima (and not an 03 model), a Passat (not the Jetta), or an Accord interior, I would be impressed. But those two were pretty easy to beat, IMO.

I have some more for you in case you didn't actually read the entire comparo I posted.

From that same C&D comparison of the 6, Altima, and Jetta.

The Jetta's interior is clean, attractive, comfortable, and cool. Its solid, substantial feel is attributable to class-leading build-quality demonstrated by perfect paint, tight gaps, and nary a squeak or rattle. All the buttons, wheels, and knobs are damped and complement that oh-so-German black-rubber dash pad and the fold-flat ventilation outlets. Indigo-blue and red instrumentation, with logically located switchgear, is now a common VW trait, but it still looks as good as it works. The trunk is impeccably finished, with a full-size spare and brushed-stainless-steel gas strut to boot. There's a reason VW/Audi are often benchmarked for interior design--they're that good.

You'll find the same comments on pretty much any VW interior no matter where you look. Still think the 6 won that contest easily? :P

baggs32 · August 2007

:shades:

louiswei · August 2007

Wow, although C&D is very reserved with its tone but anyone who can read through the line can see that they are not impressed at all with the 2008 Accord.

Here are some quotes from C&D:

You were just a cute little three-door when you were born. Now youre 32 and crowding the ends of the garage.

Factor in the extra inch and a half of cabin width, and, Accord, we hardly know ya.

Youre 32, going on 64.

I have to agree with C&D, this is no longer the Accord that I'll eager want to step in and take it out for a spin. This has become an appliance, just like the Camry (5 inches longer than the Camry, are you kidding me Honda?). Man I missed the '94-'97 and '98-'02 Accords.

pat · August 2007

baggs32, the pictures you posted in #4222 are waaaay too wide for the page. I had to take the message down. Sorry.

And in the process I managed to delete #4208 by benderofbows for no good reason. I can't even get a copy of it. I'm very sorry.

urnews · August 2007

Not exactly a rave review:C&D First Drive

That review could have been (and probably was) written from a press release. All it says is that the Accord has grown in size, dimensions. Not much of a review at all. I'd wager a dollar to a doughnut that the rave reviews are already in the works.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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