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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I'm no fan of CR by any means, but VW reliability (or lack of) goes beyond their surveys.

    Well, what I said was differences are less than many think and that CR only dislikes VWs based on reliability issues.

    If I happened to like the Passat best amongst the midsize cars, reliability fears would not keep me from buying. Most (but not all) cars these days are reliable enough that it is a non-issue for me.
  • nissmazlovernissmazlover Member Posts: 162
    EXCELLENT post! BRAVO! I feel the EXACT same way; and I couldn't have said it better myself. Driving my car is TOTALLY a therapeutic and rewarding experience. There aren't forums about refrigerator enthusiasts. But, car/driving enthusiasts? Too many to mention. It's for a reason.
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    Yeah but even an enthusiast doesn't drive in a what?...yeah, an enthusiastic manner 100% of the time. I absolutely love cars and everything about them and as I noted in my O.P. about what defines an appliance I do care that my car is reasonably quick, quiet, comfortable, fuel efficient, handles well etc. etc. but I believe most who insist a Mazda 6, for instance, is so "head and shoulders" above the rest in all performance categories that a part-time enthusiast couldn't be happy without one are deluding themselves (well maybe deluding is too strong a word but for a lack of a better one for now I'll let it stand). Most of us only drive at less than 50% of the capability of most modern cars in this class anyhow. A V-6 Sonata for instance is fast enough (as fast as or faster than 90% here) gets similar fuel economy, is as quiet as any here, and handles and stops as well also so it is the appliance of choice for thousands ($$$ for thousands LESS $$$). It becomes nit-picking trying to define what is an enthusiasts sedan. I can scare the hell out of myself in an Accord as easily as in a Camry..just before I drop back down into a sedate cruise for the remainder of my trip. Nah, those who say they drive in such a manner as to demand a more "responsive" car all the time are kidding themselves.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    One of my all-time favorite things to do, ever, is to drag race a cop. I'm not kidding, it is hilarious. Almost every car being discussed here can really hand it to a Crown Vic off the line.

    I love it when one is next to me at a red light and after it turns green, I hear that Ford V8 start to rumble. I'll scoot as fast as I possibly can up to the speed limit, wasting the cop car in the process, and then cruise along. Every single time I have tried this, without fail, the cop leaves it floored and absolutely blasts past me at 15-20 mph over the limit. If we get caught again at the next light, we just repeat. Every cop has repeated.

    Don't peel tires, just floor it to the speed limit. Nothing illegal about that. And it is so much fun.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well I have heard plenty of complaints about the i4 engines though and electrical problems. I remain cautious of the brand. The V6 seems better. The i5 engine is an old Audi, by any chance ???
    L
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Well I have heard plenty of complaints about the i4 engines though and electrical problems.

    The i4 engines are great. Just add diesel fuel and change the timing belt at recommended interval and they go forever.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    but I believe most who insist a Mazda 6, for instance, is so "head and shoulders" above the rest in all performance categories that a part-time enthusiast couldn't be happy without one are deluding themselves

    I second that! None of these cars are considered appliances, by the people who drive them. And none of these cars are true sports cars either.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    no I meant the i4 gas engines, with adding a quart of oil every 1,000 miles. I know they have an i5 now. Wonder about both of those two engines though for reliability. If, that is if they are reliable, the VW Rabbit, Jetta and the Bug may be a good by.
    L
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The I5 is only in the Jetta, not in the midsize Passat. Passat base engine is and has been a turbo 4.

    We have had no problems with our I5, but at 21,000 miles or so that does not mean a whole lot...but it certainly is not burning oil.

    My kid, just this week, bought a '96 Jetta I4 with just about 100K mi. I guess we'll be seeing if that one uses any oil...
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    ...I believe most who insist a Mazda 6, for instance, is so "head and shoulders" above the rest in all performance categories that a part-time enthusiast couldn't be happy without one are deluding themselves...Nah, those who say they drive in such a manner as to demand a more "responsive" car all the time are kidding themselves.

    Speak for yourself.

    Yes, I don't drive at full bore 100% of the time, nor do I participate in SCCA events, but I'll buy a bicycle before settling for a softly-sprung land yacht because it "supposedly" suits the majority of my driving.

    And yes, there's a LARGE difference between the way my 6 reacts when accelerating on a highway on-ramp (taut, composed) compared to a Camry and Accord (lots of body roll and lean). This, among lots of other day-to-day situations, make all the difference to me.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    And none of these cars are true sports cars either.


    Owners of the SPEED6 or Legacy GT might want to argue with you about that. I know they aren't in the list of cars compared here but their prices are right in line with the V6 models of the two best sellers here and will put everything else to shame any day of the week and still serve as fully competent daily drivers.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "And yes, there's a LARGE difference between the way my 6 reacts when accelerating on a highway on-ramp (taut, composed) compared to a Camry and Accord (lots of body roll and lean). This, among lots of other day-to-day situations, make all the difference to me."

    Do you mean that the Accord and Camry react in a similar manner with regard to body roll and lean? And that the Accord is a land yatch compared to a 6?
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "Owners of the SPEED6 or Legacy GT might want to argue with you about that. I know they aren't in the list of cars compared here but their prices are right in line with the V6 models of the two best sellers here and will put everything else to shame any day of the week and still serve as fully competent daily drivers"

    Well, there is something missing here, because both these cars a collosal flops (which I am puzzled about, especially for the Speed6, which seems to be a very competent car). One would tend to think they would have a niche market, but clearly that's not happened. Also, these are not cheap cars, the reason one can buy them cheap is because the major discounts on them (which is a good thing for someone really wanting one of these). I am not saying that these are not good cars, but maybe drivers preffered (at least in case of the Speed6) the lighter V6 6, compared to the AWD Speed6? Never know how the market is going to react.
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    When I clearly stated "I believe" I WAS speaking for myself. Further I really don't think any car in this class really qualifies as a "land yacht" and I have yet to be flung off the road by anything I have driven in this class. You are participating in the "nit-picking" contest I spoke of. OK if a Mazda 6 is the only thing that will satisfy your perhaps overinflated need for being "one with the road" then have at it but don't presume to call everything else a "land yacht"..it isn't the only thing that won't fall on its side in a corner.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    And yes, there's a LARGE difference between the way my 6 reacts when accelerating on a highway on-ramp (taut, composed) compared to a Camry and Accord (lots of body roll and lean).

    LOL, yeah right...

    I have no argument about the 6 is the king of performance in the midsizer segment but it's not like it is in another class all by itself. The difference between the 6 and Accord is small but noticeable when push hard. Camry SE can hold its own against any car in this class as well. Okay, so the regular Camry is a yacht but it's mission is to satisfy a bigger crowd than the 6.

    Oh, by the way, one of the difference between the V6 Mazda6, Accord V6 and Camry V6 on a highway on-ramp is that the 6 is get outrun by the other 2.

    :P
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Another big difference between the Mazda6, Accord, and Camry is that right now I (and anyone else) can walk into my local Mazda dealer and get a very well equipped 6 MT for a bit over $16k + T&L with no haggling. What kind of Accord or Camry would you get for that price? Would it have power seat, 17" alloys, CD changer, ground effects, etc.? Plus the handling and great looks of a Mazda6?
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    The Mazda6 has been going at very low prices for a long time; and it is a tough value to beat (especially now with a new gen coming out). They never did sell well; so Mazda has had to dole out discounts by the dozen to get people to buy them, unlike the Mazda3. Maybe the next gen 6 will change this, since it is supposed to be a larger car to cater to American tastes.

    BTW, the year end clearance at Honda has been great as well; I have seen fairly low prices for the Accord as its ends it current cycle. However, these wouldn't comapre with Mazda6 prices.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Also, these are not cheap cars, the reason one can buy them cheap is because the major discounts on them

    That's right, and I pointed that out. They do sticker, well equipped, somewhere around $30k which is also roughly the starting price for the sportiest Camry and next Accord. I say that for the latter because all reviews of it so far say the EX V6 will start at $30k. If your intentions are sporting then you are much better off with a SPEED6 or Legacy GT IMO. Those two are true sports cars and fall in this class.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Oh, by the way, one of the difference between the V6 Mazda6, Accord V6 and Camry V6 on a highway on-ramp is that the 6 is get outrun by the other 2.


    If the 6 in question has an MTX then it will stay right with them particularly if the ramp has a curve in it which most do. At least around here anyway.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "If the 6 in question has an MTX then it will stay right with them particularly if the ramp has a curve in it which most do. At least around here anyway. "

    Not really, is the Accord has MT as well. Will still pull away.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Funny you should mention low prices on Accords. The Honda dealerships in my town seem to have an unwritten (since written would be against the law) agreement not to publish purchase prices, just lease prices. And the lease deal on the Accord LX right now is worse than it was earlier in the year: still $199/month but nearly $3000 up front. The up-front money is much higher than it was earlier this year. In fact, earlier in the year the deal was $199/mo. for a V6! That seems odd to be given Honda must be trying to close out the Accords before the new models roll in.

    Personally I like the size of the current Mazda6 and don't like the trend of making mid-sized cars larger (on the outside). The new Accord is 194" for gosh sakes! That's about 6" less than the huge Grand Caravan I had. And it was a cumbersome beast to park. Other automakers seem to be able to fit mid-sized space (even large-car space) into a smaller package. Maybe Honda should add a large sedan ala Avalon to its lineup so it can let the Accord play the role of mid-sized family sedan and keep it a decent size.
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    The Azera is 192.7, Avalon 197.2, and Amanti 196.9 inches long. If this keeps up, the Accord will be clearly in the next size up. Not good for those that like mid-sized cars.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    But good for those who are looking for a bigger Honda sedan.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Length of a car does not exactly measure usable space - interior volume, trunk space. The perfect example is, despite the Azera being shorter than the Avalon, the interior volume and trunk space is the same between the two.

    On by the way, the Accord (w/o sunroof only per louiswei) is a large car per EPA. It's the second car to the Sonata (w/ or w/o sunroof) classified as a large car by EPA, two and half years later. Which car will be next? Probably not the Mazda6.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    You'd think they'd just make a larger car under a different name. Everybody else does.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The 3 series is a perfect example of a car that has grown in length and girth over the years. Now BMW is introducing the 1 series, which probably is as small as the original 2002.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Again, not if there's a curve involved. Once they get out on the highway it's anyone's game because the published numbers usually don't tell us gearing. Full throttle on a straight away, yes the Accord will most likely pull away but onramps aren't all like that now are they?

    Either way I'm beating both of them by A LOT even with my wife and two kids in the cabin. Curves, no curves, whatever. ;)
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Something like McDonald's does with super sizing that meal. Call the new larger Accord the Accord SS or Super Sized. ;) We fit larger beltlines! I got the '07, and I am thinking it to be fairly large as is. Oh well, make no difference to me.
    L
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Honda already brought the Fit over here because the Civic is now the size of the original Accord (or bigger?). So the next logical step is to introduce a new mid-sized car for 2013, slotted between the Civic and Accord, at which time the Accord will be about the size of the Crown Vic. ;) Or maybe by then the Civic will be big enough to take over as Honda's mid-sized car.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    "According" to a USA Today story, only the LX trim (without sunroof) has enough interior volume to qualify as a large car per EPA measurements, just making it with no room to spare.

    I don't know why the others wouldn't, but that's what the story said.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The sunroof reduces headroom; less headroom = less cubic feet.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Grad: I was referring to the part that said only the LX trim qualilfies as "large".
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    but the difference is, there is demand for it. as us americans get fatter, we wan't more food. but with cars, the trend is different. less people getting married, waiting longer (if ever) to have kids, and having less of them. more and more people are buying smaller cars, not bigger.

    I'm not saying honda can't pull it off, if anybody can it's probably them. But seems like a gutsy thing to do with their #1 vehicle
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Length of a car does not exactly measure usable space - interior volume, trunk space.

    Interior volume is not always the best measure either. Somewhat lower roofline reduces interior volume, but does not change a mid-size to a compact no matter what EPA thinks. (Malibu is a mid-size and G6 is a compact per EPA.)

    Adding a sunroof also does not convert a large car to a midsize.

    While interior space is important, exterior dimensions, wheelbase. and weight are also important factors in classifying cars as these affect how it drives. EPA may think the Sonata and the Crown Vic are in the same size class, personally I think the 2 foot difference in length puts them in different classes.

    Of course, actually EPA also recognizes this which is why they have market class which "groups together cars that are similar from the car buyer's perspective", in addition to the official EPA size classification based on interior volume. The "market class" sensibly puts the Sonata in the "family sedan" category and the Crown Vic in the "large sedan" category.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byclass.htm
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Doesn't seem like growing larger has hurt Camry sales any (07vs06), so why would it hurt Accord sales?
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    cause the camry hasn't grown that large, they still keep the avalon bigger to fill that spot. I'm not saying it won't work, just seems to be moving in the opposite direction of where the market is going. Mid size sales have been dropping for a long time now. I seem to remember reading somewhere that over the last 10 years or so, they're down about a million units. just look at the trend. the accord sales peaked in 2001-2002. the civic, versa, and crv (i know its a suv/cuv, but it is the small version) are way up. same way with toyota. their fastest growing cars are the matrix, yarris, carolla. nissan and Gm are an exception, but the versa is selling as fast as they can make them, and the altima was made smaller this time arround. and if the sentra were a better car, it might be cutting into altima sales. same with gm. I think they only reason the impala does as well as it does is because the malibu and cobalt are such poor choices.

    As said before, It may work. Honda is usually very good at guessing the market. Just seems like a big risk to take with the #2 selling car in the country.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    And only the LX and LX-P models are full size, the EX is still a midsize because of a lack of Sunroofs.

    I also read that EX models (EX-L, EXV6 and EXLV6 models) will make up over 50 percent of sales this time.
  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    Grad: I was referring to the part that said only the LX trim qualilfies as "large".

    That's what he was trying to say. The LX does not have a sunroof but the EX does. The sunroof takes away cubic inches from the interior because the height of the car stays the same but the inside of the ceiling is lower to allow for the sliding mechanism.

    That reduction in cubic inches is enough to reduce the overall volume back to midsize in the EX.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Tallman beat me to it. Post 4316 is exactly what I was talking about.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    some graphics from Temple of VTEC:

    image
    image

    Headroom of 2007 (front/rear): 40.4 / 38.5
    Legroom of 2007 (f/r): 42.6 / 36.8

    Looks like the only real gain in the 2008 in interior dimensions is driver's headroom which gains an inch. Legroom actually decreases in the back...
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Maybe the reason growing in size didn't hurt the 2007 Camry is because it's the same length as the previous generation, yet with more interior room--a very intelligent use of space. Whereas the Accord grew nearly 6-1/2" in length from 2007 to 2008 and is now five inches longer than the Camry (and also the Sonata, although the Sonata actually has more interior room than the Accord).
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Thanks.

    I didn't know the Honda does not offer a sunroof across the board in the Accord.

    So, it still seems like the Accord shouldn't be considered "large" by Edmunds if so many Accord sales are for trims above LX.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Look back on the previous page of this thread, if you would, and tell me you see 6-1/2". I see 3" longer and 1" wider, and 1" taller. Not a huge difference, IMO. It seems bigger is better (to you) when it's the Sonata, but no so for the Accord. What's up with that?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Sonata: 188.9
    Camry: 189.2
    Accord: 194.1

    I should have used a calculator the first time--it's actually almost 5-1/2", not 6-1/2". But if you see only 3", I guess you need glasses? ;)

    Bigger is better when it doesn't make the car a cumbersome size. The Camry and Sonata manage to house roomy interiors with less length. Actually, the Camry and Sonata are longer than I like/need. I prefer cars like the Elantra and Versa that are roomy inside (mid-sized car volume) but compact outside--in this case nearly a foot and a half shorter than the Accord. The Elantra puts more interior volume than the '07 Accord EX into 177 inches. I suppose some folks like big (long) cars, but I don't see the benefit unless it translates into more useable room. Parking spaces seem to be getting smaller, and I'm not accumulating less stuff in my garage every year. ;)
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Whereas the Accord grew nearly 6-1/2" in length from 2007 to 2008

    I'm not going crazy, you did say the 08 Accord was 6-1/2" larger than the 07 Accord was (not the Camry and Sonata) :P . When it has grown only 3". These are your own words. And even though the 08 Accord is 5-1/2" longer than the Sonata or Camry, I don't see that making a big difference.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, I looked up the number for the 2007 Accord but didn't notice it was for the coupe. Thanks for the correction.

    If 5-1/2" is not a big difference for you, that's great. I know that parking my 200" long van in my garage was a real squeeze sometimes. The Accord is 6" shorter, but I have more stuff in my garage now than I did when I owned the van. If I have choice between a "mid-sized sedan" that's 194" or one that's 177", I prefer the shorter, easier to park car. Or if I have a choice between two sedans that have about the same interior space, I prefer the one that's almost half a foot shorter.

    I can't wait for the Gen 9 Accord--will probably give my old Grand Caravan a run for its money in length. :sick: Maybe it will have footrests in back though. :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I think your have to sit in the car to evaluate the interior roominess. Roominess is function of interior ergonomics not of cubic feet. Knowing Honda they probably made very good use of interior layout without compromising the other fine qualities of the car.

    Of course, what not "compromising is", will be subject to interpertation.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I agree, it's not just cubic feet for interior room. But length is length--no need to try a "garage door test" to evaluate that. ;)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    True, but to me the length is inconsequential, unless I was talking about a Mini Cooper. In a so called mid-sized family sedan I want roominess without being barge-like.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    This review was generally positive, but did mention that the base model's interior materials seemed inferior.

    An interesting fact pointed out in their review is that the first generation Accord had a 93 inch wheel base, which is shorter than the current Honda Fit.
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