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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I hardly ever sell a car. I think of the 13 cars I've owned only 3 have been re-sold and these were all sold for a few hundred bucks. So resale value has been of little concern for me.

    It took me about 18 mo. of off and on shopping and research to buy my last car. So if I were to trade every 2-3 years, I'd probably be perpetually working on buying/selling cars. ;)

    I have never been able to bring myself to buy used, unless it was a cheap car. Most I ever paid for a used car was $3800 in Dec. 2000.

    Buying a 1-3 year old car and supposedly saving a lot on depreciation sounds good on paper, but I have never gotten the impression that it would work that well in reality...at least for me. Saving in the neighborhood of $4000 to get a car with maybe 20,000-30,000 miles on it, is not enough compensation for going with a used car for me. The idea of buying a higher priced used car from a private seller makes me nervous.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Where do you park all the cars? Drive a different old car each day? As for used, I would say if bought for 1/2 the original cost, or less, is the way to go for used. American cars are usually the best deals in used. I did find an excellent 6 year old Miata some years back. It was about a third the current Miata price, and had 36K miles on it. Sometimes Japan and German good buys can be found.
    L
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I didn't say I had kept all those cars from my 30 years of car ownership, just that they were not sold. Some were junked, some were donated, a couple were given to kids.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I guess we will find out about the "super Honda resale value" in a few years, I don't see myself in the '07 Accord EX for more than 3 or 5 years if I can help it; I am hoping by then I can get something more fun.
    The old Accord (1993/145k)seems to be about 2k on craigslist around here. We will see how that goes.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Seems to me you are loosing a lot of $$$ on depreciation (on any car) in the first 3 years, and getting a car that hasn't really improved that much over the 3 year old model.

    Last 2 vehicles - a 2000 Camry and a 2002 Accord. Bought 'em for a great price, no money down, 5 year financing, traded 'em in and got the payoff as trade-in value - no upsidedownness carried to the next vehicle.

    My current ride is a TL. Bought it for less than what Edmunds suggested, no money down, 5 year financing (787 FICO score).

    And I'm not buying the same model car each time. I like to try 'em all. Waiting to see the HunDye Genesis. Hopefully that car won't upset my pattern.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Wouldn't lease payments be lower than the 5 year finance payments? It's your $$$, so if you really want the freedom to sell/trade whenever the urge strikes (even if it's less than 3 years) it's the only option.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I don't see Honda offering me any financial incentive to be loyal to them--a loyalty rebate, for example. So let the best car, at the best price, win my business.

    It's an unwritten rebate issued as knowing and having peace of mind that your car will never break down or require tow truck services for over 200,000 to 300,000 miles with proper maintenance. The finanicial incentive is that you won't have to spend money on mechanics and replacement parts (I must have spent thousands on MOPAR replacement parts alone).

    So in order to have your viewpoint and outlook, you have to ignore decades of reliability data. :surprise:
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    The car performs 100% on the road for handling and comfort. The gas mileage is good. Will I buy another one, not sure. The noise thing gives me a little pause. Will see how the car rates over time.

    Blame those "rookies" in Ohio........ They will never be as good or as talented as the Honda workers in Japan, but in time (maybe another 5 years) they will get really good. A lot of the workers in Japan have been assembling Honda's for decades, or even their whole career and most of their lives; hard to compete with that.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    If someone rearends and totals your 1 or 2 year old car, your Insurance Company will make you care about resale value a whole lot!!!! :)
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    It's an unwritten rebate issued as knowing and having peace of mind that your car will never break down or require tow truck services for over 200,000 to 300,000

    I'd love to take you on a tour of garages sometime. Might take the blinders off your eyes

    I hate to be the one to break it to you, but yes, Honda cars do in fact break down from time to time.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    If someone rearends and totals your 1 or 2 year old car, your Insurance Company will make you care about resale value a whole lot!!!!

    Well, not a lot but a at least a little. Whatever the insurance would pay should be enough to buy a car of similar age an condition. But, I would care a little as I might want to replace it with new, which is why I say resale is of little (as opposed to no) concern.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Last 2 vehicles - a 2000 Camry and a 2002 Accord. Bought 'em for a great price, no money down, 5 year financing, traded 'em in and got the payoff as trade-in value - no upsidedownness carried to the next vehicle.

    I would guess that this means you are paying around $300-350 per month. If so, that seems like a pretty high cost for owning a car. Also, despite being Accord and Camry, that depreciation seems pretty high at an average of about 20% per year for the few years you own them.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    That is why there is GAP insurance.

    If someone is upside down on payments (assuming payments are up to date) GAP insurance will pay the difference between the cars value and the loan payoff amount.

    In CT where I live, state law requires insurance companies to pay RETAIL value (which is better than resale value) when a car is totaled. My 28 month old '05 Sonata is worth about $3500 less than I paid for it in April, '05 according to NADA. That's not a bad depreciation hit at all.

    Anyone should check with their car insurance company about GAP insurance before buying GAP through the dealer. I'm an insurance agent and have seen hundreds of dollars of saving for my clients by getting insurance company GAP vs dealer GAP.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Wouldn't lease payments be lower than the 5 year finance payments? It's your $$$, so if you really want the freedom to sell/trade whenever the urge strikes (even if it's less than 3 years) it's the only option.

    Exactly why I usually lease. I don't keep cars long and I prefer the lower payments that can go with that. I did buy my Mustang after I "sold" my leased Mazda6 to the Ford dealer for the amount of the remaining balance on the lease. There were 7 remaining months, out of 36 total, on that Mazda lease so you're not necessarily bound to the length of a lease if you don't want to be. I could have sold it myself too and made a profit but I didn't want the hassle.

    Lease companies may differ in how they handle those situations but Mazda was very clear in what I could and couldn't do and they made it very easy for the Ford dealer to buy my lease out and therefore own the car. I drove home in the Mustang the very same day I went to look at it. It was that seamless.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The best value deal is the SE V6 Accord. Has some good equipment value to it, it is being discounted right now, and is rated better than the EX for total turnaround or cost to own over the years, by Intellichoice. It is a good deal. IF you are thinking Accord, of all those I looked at the SE V6 stood out for value in the sedan.
    L
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Yes, but if your going to waste the extra money on GAP insurance payments, why not just put aside the payments in a high interest yielding account and pay for the "gap" yourself??? For that matter, why not just use the extra money you put towards GAP insurance towards buying a better vehicle that doesn't fall apart and lose its value quickly??

    Also, using any guide like NADA and Kelly Blue Book is a slippery slope with Insurance Companies. Insurance likes to look at ACTUAL Cash value, meaning what those cars are REALLY selling for.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Yes, you can find a Honda broken down in a garage, but it's a one in a million shot.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    GAP *is required* by some lenders for lease deals.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    One in a million shot? Lesseee now... the last Honda I owned was "broken down", i.e. major components inoperable, twice. Since I appear to be good at beating the odds, maybe I should go down to my local casino, or buy some lottery tickets.

    Take off the rose-colored glasses for a minute and notice that Hondas do break down. And they break down regardless of whether I've owned one before. So much for your idea of a "loyalty rebate." I'll take the cold cash for a loyalty rebate, thank you.

    One question comes to mind wrt the 2008 Accord: Honda has had more problems than normal lately with the first year or so of a new design (see: 1999 Odyssey; 2001 Civic; 2003 Accord; 2006 Civic for example). So I wonder how the new Accord will fare for reliability? Or will only 1/2 of one 2008 Accord (or about one in a million) have a significant problem?
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    One question comes to mind wrt the 2008 Accord: Honda has had more problems than normal lately with the first year or so of a new design (see: 1999 Odyssey; 2001 Civic; 2003 Accord; 2006 Civic for example). So I wonder how the new Accord will fare for reliability? Or will only 1/2 of one 2008 Accord (or about one in a million) have a significant problem?

    What problem have you discovered with my 03 Accord, that I have obviously failed to notice?
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Andres, how does $28 per year for an option package offered by one of the insurance companies I represent sound to you?

    That $28 option includes lease GAP, up to $3,000 rental car, OEM replacement parts until car is 5 model years old, replacement of accidental air bag deployment, $100 lock & key service, plus a couple other things.

    Would a high interest yielding account pay for any GAP if I front ended the first year's $28 payment if I were upside down on the loan? How much more car would $28 per year for 5 years buy? And, my '05 Sonata GLS SV is no where's near falling apart. It hasn't had to have anything fixed or adjusted. I'd guess that a typical new Honda has decreased in value by at least $3500 in the same 28 month period.

    You seem to be totally ignorant regarding GAP insurance. GAP insurance does not apply to a car's reliability, it only applies to physical damage claims that "total" a car.

    Actual Cash Value means "replacement cost less depreciation." In CT, as I posted earlier, the law defines "replacement cost" as "retail value" and further specifies that "NADA" and one other recognized source's value will be averaged to determine the retail value. These other sources can include KBB retail value or newspaper ads from dealerships for used cars of the same make, year and model of car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You heard about the mass recall of the '03 Accord for auto transmission problems, right? Glad that your Accord was not affected, since the transmission gear failure (subject of the recall action) could result in transmission lockup, which could result in a crash (according to the recall notice).
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    "It's an unwritten rebate issued as knowing and having peace of mind that your car will never break down or require tow truck services for over 200,000 to 300,000"

    "I'd love to take you on a tour of garages sometime. Might take the blinders off your eyes."

    "I hate to be the one to break it to you, but yes, Honda cars do in fact break down from time to time."

    I agree, the last two vehicles I have observed either being towed or dead on the side of the road were Accords - just today. Brand loyalty is one thing, but "blind" loyalty is something I simply don't understand. Any mass produced product made by a human being will break down, including a Honda.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    You heard about the mass recall of the '03 Accord for auto transmission problems, right?

    Yes, of course I have heard of the recall. The recall was done on my car, and unlike many other companies recall fixes, it worked like a charm. No one has opened my hood but myself since then. I sure haven't been hearing of many 03 Accord transmission failures since then. On the other hand, if I brought my Chevy truck in for every recall listed for it, it would be at the dealership more than at my house. Recalls aren't a problem, when the fix works.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Or another way to say it is, recalls aren't a problem if they are on a Honda, right? ;)

    Just because your car was fixed before it left you stranded on the road (or worse), doesn't mean it didn't happen to many other Accord owners. Too bad they didn't qualify for that Honda "loyalty rebate." :sick:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Let me say this, as a 2-Accord owner who has no problem saying he loves both of his cars...

    Honda is a large company, just like any other in this forum.

    Honda makes good cars that please lots of customers, just like any other in this forum.

    Honda makes its share of mistakes and has its share of issues to work through, just (say it with me) like any other in this forum.

    Hondas are cars made by imperfect beings, people. Are they typically ahead of the curve on reliability? Many reports say yes. It doesn't make them perfect though; far from it. Let's quit pretending like Honda wears a halo and has only a "1 in a million" shot of being a shop. They don't.

    I have a 1996 Accord that has 175k miles, and has cost relatively little to keep running. I also have a 2006 Accord with 24,100 miles, and it had more problems (2) than my 1996 had in an entire year last year. The problems were minor (a loose interior rear-view mirror and a gas flap that needed some little rubber piece plopped back into place). Still, not perfect, and not any more or less than I'd expect from any one of its competitors.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Grad, that's a voice of reason; love your cars but realize, like all cars, that they are not perfect. I even saw a Rolls broken down on I-95 years ago in one of the Carolinas or Virginia.

    There are a couple posters here who still insist than anything other than Accord or Camry are junk. As a proud/pleased Accord owner, you recognize that all car are not for everybody and that there are many good choices available.

    Our '07 Sonata (company car) which my brother drives has been great for 8K miles, whatever he has driven it. In fact, at least once a week, he tells me how great a car it is after having it for a little over six months.

    My '05 Sonata is still great and a pleasure to drive (requiring no fixes) since new 28 months ago.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Maybe that Honda went the 301K 'th mile, then died. Just a thought :shades:

    I see in Consumer Reports of several years for transmission problems. Seems it was for the V6 models. Things happen, and this time it was happening to Honda. Oh well, it is not like one doesn't spot a whole lot of black dots on the pages on Consumer Reports for GM, Ford, Mercedes, Saab, and well most of the rest. I do note more solid red dots come to view when looking at the pages of Honda cars. Funny how that happens.
    L
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Well, I bought a Honda because of the qualities Honda bakes into its cars (the interior design/fit/finish, the handling and ride balance, and the suh-WEET engine :)). Not becuase "It's a Honda."

    Of course, the class-leading resale and reputation for reliability is a plus, but the reliability thing means above average, not perfect.

    I think it is pretty reasonable too, but then again, I've never argued with myself! ;)
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    The life story of a 1990 Honda Accord EX Automatic, bought brand new by a married couple for the wife to commute to work in.

    The original owners put 100,000 miles on the car in 9 years before deciding to upgrade. They listed the car for sale privately in 1999, when I purchased it to commute to college in.

    During my ownership over the next 2.5 years and 40,000 miles, the car did have quite a few moderate problems. Right off the top of my head:

    -on the drive home, noticed a strange high-pitched scraping noise, turned out to be the distributer
    -intake manifold became clogged, resulting in increased intake noise and reduced performance; shop had to drill holes
    -starter solenoid failed; car would not start when interior was hot, had to open doors/hood for it to cool before it would crank
    -igniter failed; while driving, all power accesories including gauges went dead, car kept running until shut off then wouldn't start again
    -power door lock module failed

    I sold this car privately in 2001. Last year, I emailed the third owner and asked her what became of the car. She stated that she drove the car with no major problems until "well over 200 thousand miles" but that everything was starting to go at that point, including the transmission. She traded it in to a dealer in 2004, and who knows what happened to it then.

    So all in all, that car was pretty reliable throughout it's life. Evidently I just had the bad spot, but hey nothing major failed. No engine/tranny rebuilds, etc.

    Now I bought a brand new Accord. I'll be happy if it is as reliable throughout it's life as the 1990 was.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Nicely said:

    Let's quit pretending like Honda wears a halo and has only a "1 in a million" shot of being a shop. They don't.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >to a dealer in 2004, and who knows what happened to it then.

    If you have the VIN number from an insurance policy (your agent probably has records), a service writeup, an old registration, I'd check a carfax or other tracking record for it just to see what happened. Ohio has a state website where VINs can be checked for cursory records on cars in their system, e.g., free.

    I've often wondered how long my 89 Century and 93 leSabre went after my wife made me trade them.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    I saw a post within last coupl'a days in a Honda discussion here on Edmunds by an Accord owner about his front fender popping when turning into the driveway. I'll bet it's the early problem with welds in the firewall/A post area from the 03's. His was an 05 or 06 however. Naaah. It couldn't be. Honda would have fixed those the day they found their welds were insufficient. :sick:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I'll bet it's the early problem with welds in the firewall/A post area from the 03's. His was an 05 or 06 however. Naaah. It couldn't be. Honda would have fixed those the day they found their welds were insufficient.

    Now lets not forget about how Honda also called all owners with affected copies into the shop so they could get their welds fixed for free too. While it was in there I'm sure they hooked everyone up with a new tranny, timing belt, brake pads, muffler, etc. too. You know, standard Honda service stuff. :P
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >new tranny, timing belt, brake pads, muffler, etc. too. You know, standard Honda service stuff.

    AND they didn't let the owner know all the other parts had been replaced to correct "errors" and the owners think their cars never needed any service for problems like all those "other" cars do when problems pop up. :blush:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    Soooo I guess Honda should shut down their service and repair facilities at all their dealerships...wow think of all the savings. What a great idea and all those unemployed Honda techs. can find jobs where? probably according to your skewed rationale at Hyundai...right? Yeah sure, last time I checked not one dealer in my (or anyone elses) area has closed their service dept. due to a lack of business.
  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    So now the pendulum swings the other way. Sigh. People get mad at the Honda fans for being so blindly loyal that it sounds a bit ridiculous. Then thegrad speaks with reason and the pendulum swings back so that the Honda bashers are sounding ridiculous. :P

    What's the point of egging each other on?
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Once upon a time (it seems like long ago) a mid-size sedan forum would have been dominated by the theme which is best, Ford or Chevy. Now it's Honda and Toyota versus the rest of the field. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

    There are loyalists -- and detractors -- on both sides of the aisle. It's safe to say, I believe, that Honda and Toyota have built some fine automobiles over the last two decades. I believe it is equally true that the competition has gotten a lot keener in the last five years.

    In its heyday, the Ford Taurus absolutely dominated the mid-size sedan segment but Ford failed to keep pace with the market and let the Taurus die on the vine.

    The Fusion is the new Taurus, although the new Taurus is an old Five Hundred and now a full-size sedan. Except for horrific 14.8 mpg in-city gas mileage, our 2007 SEL AWD V6 Fusion has been perfect for nine months and 4,321 miles. Knock on wood.

    Only time will tell if the Fusion proves to be as reliable as an Accord or Camry. So far, so good. Nary a recall. Not a single rattle, squeak or other malady. I believe Ford has produced a genuine winner in the Fusion, definitely equal to the Accord and Camry but with better styling and handling at a better price.

    Just my 2 cents worth.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731

    So now the pendulum swings the other way. Sigh. People get mad at the Honda fans for being so blindly loyal that it sounds a bit ridiculous. Then thegrad speaks with reason and the pendulum swings back so that the Honda bashers are sounding ridiculous.


    I dunno, but I'm kind of afraid to talk now! :)
  • mz3smz3s Member Posts: 17
    Blame those "rookies" in Ohio........ They will never be as good or as talented as the Honda workers in Japan

    Ummm, those "rookies" have been building the Accord for 25+ years :confuse:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "There are a couple posters here who still insist than anything other than Accord or Camry are junk."

    That's not exactly the way I think. I'm not interested in purchasing/leasing any other car in this segment for one reason or another, other than an Accord.

    That's different than saying they are all junk.
  • mz3smz3s Member Posts: 17
    Yes, you can find a Honda broken down in a garage, but it's a one in a million shot.

    Not too sure about that... My buddy's 02 Accord EX-V6(Please die already) Died while driving - bad tranny. Rebuilt it (at his expense). Died again. New tranny (again, his expense) and it's slipping already. 68k miles. Please die already. And the sad thing is that he wants the 08 Accord.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I have a friend who bought new in 2002 Camry XLE I4 auto and replaced the Toyota emblem on hood at about 5000, the water pump at about 18000, driver-side door stripping at about 25,000 and now has a rubbing sound from steering mechanism at about 50,000. I know there has been a couple of other repairs but I can't remember what they were. Point is, it has been a good car but it's not perfect.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The question is does he say something like his car has been reliable, except for a couple minor transmission problems? :);)
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    Except for horrific 14.8 mpg in-city gas mileage, our 2007 SEL AWD V6 Fusion has been perfect for nine months and 4,321 miles.

    I looked at Fusions when I was buying last year and only barely chose an Accord. I think the Fusions are good looking cars with good content.

    I am blown away by the mileage you report though.

    You are getting similar mileage to a full-size SUV out of a mid-size sedan. I would not be happy with that by any means.

    Do you expect it to improve? If not why stay in a sedan at all when you can get twice the space with the same mileage in something bigger?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    $28/year sounds really cheap for ANY option from an Insurance company, you sure that's not based on a 1990 Kia Sephia?

    What if you have zero down on a 72 month loan on a new BMW 335i? I'm fully aware GAP has nothing to do with reliability, but covers the amount you owe vs. what your car is worth. GAP ceases to be useful if you stick to cars that have great resale and don't buy with no money down. Cars that have great resale TEND to be, and USUALLY are very reliable, so they are inherently indirectly related.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Boz (urnews) only drives very short trips with lots of stop-n-go. It's not the vehicle in this case - it's the driving. So while an I4 would help he'll never hit the EPA mileage estimates.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That's not exactly the way I think

    It may not be the way you think but it's certainly the way you type.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    If you looked at why the service shop is so full of Honda's, you'd see they are all there for oil changes and other regular maintenance.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • pinehurst2pinehurst2 Member Posts: 13
    our 2007 SEL AWD V6 Fusion has been perfect for nine months and 4,321 miles

    Jeez - I hope so. 4321 miles in 9 months? I do that in 2 months easy.

    The 2 Fusions I test drove just seemed adequate whereas Accords and the new Sonata were at a different level altogether.

    And what's with the funky turn signal stalk at 10:00 on the Fusion? Weird.
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