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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    But as you and I know, mazda's are more fun to drive so maybe the owners are keeping them longer :shades:

    More seriously though, this is not the $3000 or less used car clunker forum... I doubt anyone here has been going to car lots looking to trade in their newer midsize sedan looking for cars w/ over 150k miles on them!

    And I think your 5:1 ratio is generous to Mazda... cars w/ 150k miles on them would on average be around 10 years old, and Mazda was almost bankrupt then b/c of very low sales. I'd geuss the ratio would be more like 10:1...
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Your experience with the Legacy selling for a good sum is like going the carnival and tossing a coin to win the fanciest of the glasswares. It can happen. This is both good and bad. Some people then feel good fortune is easily had and bet the farm. Hundreds in dollars in coins later, you realize the coin landing on the glass in the carnival was but a fluke.

    That said, yes I would say you buy what you like, and if it is discounted it is all the better. AND, I may add in some cases a car becomes just as good or better than the next due to hotter selling car if it has some function required. Cars like station wagons sell well later on, as they get the job done, even with dents and the most popular look is not so important in a car, when a family of four is the working poor. Trucks when new, could differer more due to some fad in style or advertising push, then later on equal out more in sales. And it is so true, you need not get as much as brand X, when you paid so much less for brand Y.

    As a side note, they have closed down the GM is on the offensive - will it work, forum. :( Spin offs now include the GM is offensive forum........ :surprise: OK, just kidding.

    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Moses is likely driving a Miata. Those things are unstoppable. Take the DNA out of that and put it in every Mazda and they would run to eternity. Almost as long as Clintons in politics. We are talking a long, long time here. ;)
    L
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    link title

    and I didn't take time to figure in the options ;)
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    I just received my October edition of Motor Trend, in which they compare the new Accord with the new Camry. In the side by side picture of the two cars, I think the Camry is much more attractive and aggresive looking. The writer suggests the new Accord reflects hints of a BMW 3 and 5 series......I disagree. I think the rear end is ugly (almost like a subaru legacy or a saturn) and the side view looked ugly too.

    I almost waited to purchase an 08 Accord based on the concept designs I saw, but am glad I purchased a Camry instead. I am a little disapppointed with the "new" look of the Accord. I think its ugly.....although some think the Camry is ugly. Just my two cents.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    Actually, Kind of funny thing with perfect timing happened today. My wife took the civic in for an oil change. They discovered the CV joint was bad and needed replaced. Only $300 to fix, but $300 more than I've spent on my 200sx that is 4 years older and has 30k more miles on it.

    I used the oportunity to once again remind her that she should have listend to me and picked another nissan instead of going with that honda junk :P

    Just a joke of course, I've been as satisfied with my honda products every bit as much as my nissan products.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Man, this brand bashing is getting boring. I don't think there is any vehicle in this discussion group that varies greatly from any other in reliability and by definition they are close to the same dimensions. So it comes down to price, safety, styling, ride, handling and features. Styling is pretty subjective unless something is just butt ugly(IMO doesn't apply to this group)and ride and handling is personal preference versus something good or bad. Safety is pretty close across the board except for Altima making ABS an option (rectified in '08 I hear). Features are quantifiable, but again are a personal preference but personally the more features for the money is something I appreciate. Price is a matter of negotiation and market conditions but there is generally two tiers in this class. The Honda, Camry and Subaru brands tend to be about 3-4000 more per comparatively equipped model than the other brands and they are worth about 2-3000 more a few years later so even price is somewhat of a wash. The main difference being the enjoyment more or less the owners experienced during that time.

    Bottom line: Most of the items that people are bashing each other about are really personal preferences so I like to view comments as if they ARE personal preferences rather than assume someone is trying to exert there wants/needs on all others.

    I personally would like to hear more about what the different brands offer and why you feel that way. Thanks.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I agree that price and total cost is somewhat of a wash in the end.

    However, when posts refer to intellichoice, I point out the flaws because they claim the Accord is significantly cheaper to own than a Mazda6, for example. I don't think that claim should be left to stand, as if it were a fact.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, first of all, Civics don't have too many options. Second, you didn't mention before that you were talking about the dealer's retail asking price, not trade-in value or (the number I was quoting) private party sale price. Sure, a Honda dealer will try to sell a 6-year-old Civic with 115k miles for over $9000. Will they get their asking price? Probably not. But maybe they will. Perhaps the guy who bought elroy5's Accord will need another car. ;)

    One thing is for sure: you won't get that retail price if you try to trade in your Civic or sell it to a private party. So your depreciation needs to be calculated based on what you can get for the car, not what some dealer can try to get for it with their markup added.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Why is it not a fact? Mazda6 resale values suddenly rise overnight? The asking price is way high, then they discount down to around the same price as a discounted Accord. Consider the resale of an Accord is significantly better, the Intellichoice seems to be an Accord. If a person prefers the Mazda6 of course, you would not wish to buy the Accord simply due to total cost to own.
    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    A Camry is not ugly, but does have the trendy too tall doors look, with flat sides. The rear Chris Bangle Modified X Toyota look is good, but the front nose is nothing short of odd. If you run down to Honda today, they have the '07's left. The New Malibu will be decent looking. And the Altima looks good, but alas some things I simply do not care for inside, and that CVT. If buying a stick, then it is a maybe. Hate foot emergency brakes, and the Altima is placed really in an odd position. New Mazda6 is on the way. The Aura XR is kinda cool, but look for discounts and watch out for trade-in values. Have not seen the 2008 Accord yet. I would imagine it to have the too tall doors. Note the 1" tall and 3" wider size, it is getting a bit large I think for an Accord. Sort of more the Avalon these days.
    L
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Bottom line: Most of the items that people are bashing each other about are really personal preferences so I like to view comments as if they ARE personal preferences rather than assume someone is trying to exert there wants/needs on all others.

    Many of us (yes, I am including myself) have fallen victim to retaliating against another person's view. When someone implies that your car is overrated, inferior, overpriced, or an underachiever in this segment, we get offended and feel the need to defend our car buying decision. When really it doesn't matter what someone else thinks about your car. If you are satisfied with your car, that's all that counts. I am slowly coming to the realization that everyone does not think exactly like I do. :surprise: And that's ok, I guess. ;)
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    Why is it not a fact? Mazda6 resale values suddenly rise overnight? The asking price is way high, then they discount down to around the same price as a discounted Accord.

    Some have mentioned that a discounted v-6 accord could be had for around 23k. I wanted a manual tranny which is only available on the high end accord, so add 1-2 thousand to that price. I got a manual v-6 hatchback with a bose stereo and sunroof for 19.5k with $300 in accessories and 3 oil changes thrown in. So I don't know where you come to the conclusion that a Mazda6 sells for the same amount as an Accord...

    And when I looked on KBB a couple months ago, the retail value of my car was about the same as what I paid for the car 18 months prior and the private party value was less than 1500 less than what I paid. Not bad resale value for me... of course if you're basing your statement to msrp then you'd be right in saying that the 6 does not hold it's value well. But based on what many others have been able to buy their 6's for, it's been a good value.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Just going by what I viewed on the car lot. They were all around $26K to $27K with $5K off. Now those may all have been auto. I was not shopping for a stick. Yes, you got a good price. I have owned several hatchbacks. While they are good for moving stuff, they have the drawbacks as well. Kinda one of those things, it is all in what you value most. In the Mazda6 it appears that the hatch is the best looking model.
    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Someone posted a photo of the new CTS 2008 they bought. Wow, had no idea they are out yet. At the angle of this photo something looked odd to me. My goodness, it looked like a Ford Fusion on steroids. Will have to run on down tomorrow to see if they have any in California yet. I am hoping for something better looking than the photos, as in judging by the pics, I like the original. Why must all these cars grow in size, every model change? Was the simple, edgy front replaced with something all too busy, or does it fit the looks or dazzle one in person???

    Looks wise, how many here prefer the Milan to the Fusion? Or are they too close to call. And does the front really remind you of a razor -- hey is that Gillette Fusion razor? In a way, I like that front, as much as I prefer the Milan tail lights.
    L
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Every time my 12 yr old daughter sees a CTS coming towards us on the road she says "Is that a Fusion?" so you're not the only one.

    I preferred the Fusion styling over the Milan but I would have gladly taken the Milan tail lights.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Hard to know what you were looking at on the Mazda lot or what version of Accord they are comparable to. Was the final price $26-27K or was it $5K below those figures?

    What I know is that I and many others have bought Mazda6 4 cyl, ATX, sport value sedan for about $16,000. This version is comparable to the Accord SE, which all indications are sells for thousands more.

    What I also know is that anyone with any sense at all will not be paying several hundred dollars above invoice, as intellichoice claims, for a Mazda6 after the rebates of about $2000. So this overstates the mazda6 depreciation by about $2000. Now if someone can show me a $2000 rebate on an Accord, I'll accept that there is an equivalent error in the intellichoice depreciation figure for that model.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    07 Accord EX 4cyl/5spd manual 70%/30% highway/city very first full tank 29.x mpg, second tank 31.8 mpg

    93 Accord EX 4cyl/5spd manual 70%/30% first non-winter gas full tank 31.6 mpg, last tank 31.3.

    05 Subaru Legacy Wagon 4cyl/5spd manual 40/60 highway/city last tank 29.1 mpg (trip computer said 31)

    Gas went up to $3.25 around here yesterday!!! I felt bad for the guy next to me in the TrailBlazer.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I agree. I didn't mean that I don't like people to disagree, that's what makes this site so enjoyable if you like cars, especially in regards to debatable or downright erroneous info put forth by supposed "in the know" web sites. I am a Mazda6 driver myself so I totally hear where you are coming from.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I had the chance to drive a new Camry SE for a week while my Tundra was getting a new auto tranny put in at 43,000. Yeah, even Toyotas break sometimes. Thank god it was under powertrrain warranty. I liked the SE but thought it handled a little rocky even with the SE suspension and thought some of the silver plastic inside looked a little cheap. Ran good, nice shift points as it took off well but settled down to around 2k rpms at 70mph which I was impressed with. My Mazda6 I4 runs at about 2500rpms at that speed. Anyway, the thing I really disliked about the car was the view (or lack thereof) out the rear window while backing up. I'm about 5'9" and between the headrests and the height of the back shelf I felt like I was backing up my pick-up. I guess it's partly the BMW type rear end and the height of the beltline that bothers me as I noticed that my arm was kind of at an odd angle(up) when I drove with my arm out the window which I like to do. It wasn't real comfortable in that respect. I did like the lighting on the dash though I wonder if I would get tired of it long term.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    agreed, this is the first time I can say the camry looks better than the Accord. Not a good thing for Honda since they are supposed to appeal to a younger crowd than Toyota. Looks like Honda is getting too conservative for their own good. Of course most reviews I have read are praising the Accord's styling as if it's some kind of Audi or something. Only C&D (surprisingly) was honest about the car's homely looks. good thing it has resale value on its side.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Camry has resale value on its side also. But I'm not taken with the Camry's styling. Almost like it's trying too hard to be "hip." Still, it's more daring than the Accord.

    The side view of the Accord looks pretty good to me, if plain. It has a racy slant to it that is accentuated by the strong character line ala the TL. I noticed Honda is favoring the side view in its ads on this site. Good idea, because IMO the front is not at all attractive, looking like something Daewoo might cook up, and the rear looks... well, just odd--as others have noted, like an old Saturn (not a good thing). But make no mistake, Honda will sell tons of these new Accords despite what I or others may think of the styling.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    IMO Mercs always looked better than their Ford counterparts.I'm talking about waaaaaaaaaaay back,like 1948.In the 50s,they weren't even recognizable as cousins. :blush:
  • pinehurst2pinehurst2 Member Posts: 13
    this is the first time I can say the camry looks better than the Accord.

    Not me. I think that boil on the grill of the Camry needs to be lanced.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    oh I didnt mean to suggest the camry was sexy by any means, just that it looks better than Accord. I think Fusion, Aura and Altima are better looking than both. Same goes for new Malibu.

    Honda can sell a ton of anything- the styling and features of the Accord are largely irrelevant to most buyers. It is significant to me and thats one reason why I wouldnt be driving the 2008 model. I am not a fan of cars that look worse than their predecessors.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I think the backs of the Camry and 2008 Accord are lacking for different reasons. I have never like the current camry's rear end with the bubbly lights and BMW trunk lid. The new Accord's rear is as plain as can be. Many have commented on their dislike of the new Malibu's rear but it has the Accord beat. I cant imagine a duller rear end on a family sedan.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Honda since they are supposed to appeal to a younger crowd than Toyota. Looks like Honda is getting too conservative for their own good. Of course most reviews I have read are praising the Accord's styling as if it's some kind of Audi or something.

    As a member of the "younger crowd" who will readily admit that the three previous generations of Accord (90-02) are better looking than my 2006, I must say I really like the exterior of the 2008 Accord and am still pretty disgusted with the looks of the Camry. I guess there's two sides to every coin. :)

    The interior or the prev. gen Accord is still about the best out there at the moment.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I will pass on both and think the current accord looks better than both.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Well, I've had my 2007 Accord LX 5-speed for 6 full months now, and still think it fits my needs better than most available alternatives. It is an excellent combination of size, weight, quality, comfort, cargo capacity, acceleration, fuel economy, low maintenance, and exceptional value.

    What other vehicle is midsized, has four doors, feels high-quality, is available in stick shift, can go 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, returns 30 MPG in the city, handles well enough to have fun with, calls for oil changes at 7,500 mile intervals, and can be bought brand new for under $17,000?

    A V6 Mazda6 fits most of those, I think, although I don't know about the MPG and service intervals.

    The only real complaints I have about the Accord is a desire for a 6th gear on the freeway and the fold-flat rear seat (no split fold, and the opening is small).
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Honda since they are supposed to appeal to a younger crowd than Toyota. Looks like Honda is getting too conservative for their own good. Of course most reviews I have read are praising the Accord's styling as if it's some kind of Audi or something.

    As a member of the "younger crowd" who will readily admit that the three previous generations of Accord (90-02) are better looking than my 2006, I must say I really like the exterior of the 2008 Accord and am still pretty disgusted with the looks of the Camry. I guess there's two sides to every coin.

    The interior or the prev. gen Accord is still about the best out there at the moment.


    I like the '86-89 & 90-93 styling the best of any Accords so far. The '07 is non-offensive but nothing to write home about.
    I disagree about the interior at this point though, as the dash on the '07 is about 3-4 different colors and is evident where each piece intersects. Its especially bad around the passenger air bag. I guess if you have that much dash space, its hard to get the color molding consistent.
    Its funny because the '93 dash, after baking in the sun for 15 years, is still black, all the same color, and not at all cracked.
    Both Accords do a great job holding an infant seat, and the '07 even allows seating on either side.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Looks wise, how many here prefer the Milan to the Fusion? Or are they too close to call. And does the front really remind you of a razor -- hey is that Gillette Fusion razor? In a way, I like that front, as much as I prefer the Milan tail lights.

    I'm one of those who prefer the Milan's back side, the tail lights and the tag being in the bumper instead of the trunk. But, the wife and I definitely liked the front end of the Fusion better. It's really distinctive, among all mid-size sedans.

    In the end, the Fusion won out. Besides, if the latest rounds of rumors are to be believed, Mercury may go the way of Plymouth and Oldsmobile by 2012.

    Ford, and hopefully Fusion, will be around for decades to come.

    Boz
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    if you want a manual you options are limited to camry, accord, Optima/Sonata and 6 I would say. Fusion and 6 have slightly worse mileage but are sporty and inexpensive. I dont think the Accord is unique in offering an affordable 4 cylinder ride with good mileage. If you drive an auto the Malibu and G6 offer similar mileage at similar prices.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I think the Milan is one of the best looking sedans in the class. I like pretty much every angle of that car. If it had a little more power I might be driving on instead of an Aura.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    A couple other options if you want mid-sized interior room are the Sentra (with standard 6-speed, something not available with the Accord/Camry/Mazda6/Sonata/Optima I4s) and the Elantra.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I was looking at automatic with the V6 engine. And those Mazda6 are over priced. Once discounted by $5k they descended into a more realist price. Pity those paying closer to retail. Seems like a nice car. Like any other car, just shop the prices to see how it compares. Close-outs brought it closer to being a safe buy. Otherwise the total price in and out is a lot more than buying an Accord or Camry. That said, as always this it but one consideration. If you like the car, that is possibly above all consideration, unless you are a numbers man -- one that lives to save a penny. Intellichoice will not know about some dealer offering $5K off in your hometown. Things vary. Using an average to buy and the average when sold, Mazda6 will lose. Deep discount and it become more even, but you still may lose. It is not a good game for Mazda. The Miata after 18 years of ownership may still bring you $3,000 or more, but that is the exception. Mazda seems to have soul, which is precious rare these days.
    L
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    > Mazda6

    Happened to pull parking duty at an event Saturday evening at the local high school. I occasionally ask people with new cars how they like their car. The winner for excitement was the Mazda6 owner and his wife. They loved their car. The Camry owners and Accord owners respond without a lot of excitement. But the 6 guy was really pleased with his choice.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    For glass area, I am thinking an older BMW, like the 325 or maybe the old real SAABs, just a thought. Recall a time when most cars had windows and you did not feel like you were driving a tank. I do not like the A pillar blind spot and bulkiness. Maybe my next car is a well taken care of European, Japanese or even top line American car, like a Caddy. I even recall the days when you could see the hood. Wonder if the 2008 Accord has hood in view, as I see they have raised the hood in the photos.
    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Has anyone seen the Accord for 2008? From the photos, it looks pretty good to me. The front is more orderly to me than is the New Malibu which is split the three ways. New Malibu should be on par with the rest overall for looks. SEE LINK but I am not sure I like the looks of the pricing. Starts at $20K and the as shown is $27K ??? A Malibu @ $27,ooo? Isn't a base SAAB 9-3 something like that with a stick? And are they not deep discounted? It better look like solid gold in the showroom. Will stop in a Caddy dealership to see if the CTS is in the showroom yet. I hope it has not changed so much as to become a clone of a Fusion :cry: with a let's show the world we are a Caddy front. CTS must remain edgy and its own DNA. (as always IMHO, and your smileage will vary )

    Hey, on the left here and ad shows the Hyundai Sonata, starting at $17,345. Wow, almost $3K under the New Malibu, before discounting. Folks, it is getting pretty ugly out there in the car wars. Good for shoppers though :shades:
    Loren
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    For glass area, I am thinking an older BMW, like the 325 or maybe the old real SAABs, just a thought. Recall a time when most cars had windows and you did not feel like you were driving a tank. I do not like the A pillar blind spot and bulkiness. Maybe my next car is a well taken care of European, Japanese or even top line American car, like a Caddy. I even recall the days when you could see the hood. Wonder if the 2008 Accord has hood in view, as I see they have raised the hood in the photos.

    I always felt that's what made the '93 Accord seem so sporty. It feels low to the ground (and it is, I am looking at the new Accord's door handles from inside the 93), and you can see the road pretty much right in front of the car.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Test drove the Civic before my wife bought the Optima. More money for less car. Seemed noticeably smaller than my 01 Elantra.

    If you consider "more money for less car" then you really should say, more money, for higher quality, nicer smaller car."

    The Optima doesn't get anywhere near the fuel economy of the Civic. I say you get more BANG for your buck with the Civic by saving on gas.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Compare an Accord SE I4 auto to a Mazda6i VE auto. Retail is similar but you get the following with the Mazda:
    Shiftable tranny
    17" alloys
    8 way power seat
    Lumbar support
    Split folding rear seats
    1 touch down AND UP front windows
    Traction control

    When you consider you can get this package for about 16,500 in many areas of the country including here in Chicago/Milwaukee area, I think it is a super deal right now.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    If you re-read my original post, I was simply stating that an overlooked advantage of any car that holds its value well is the insurance pay out. As I said, its quite satisfying to know that if that car is totaled, state farm will give me nearly 10k for it. thats one area resale can really save your but.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I get the impression (at least here in Southern CA) that car/mechanic shops/oil change shops will tell you to change things that don't need any changing.

    I bet there's a 70% chance there was nothing wrong with the CV joint and they were just trying to make some money. Seems that 70% of auto mechanics are dishonest these days.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    I read in the motor trend 2008 accord/ 2007 camry SE comparo that they thought he SE had a stiffer suspension than the accord... how did it compare to the 6? Was the lean in cornering as bad I've heard or did do ok? anyway, thanks for sharing your opinions about the car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That's an ineresting perspective: pay more up front so you can collect more from insurance if your car is totaled. I never thought of it that way.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    I don't pay more up front for a better insurance payout. I bought the car because its what my wife wanted. the insurance payout is just a bennifit of the car holding its value. thats all.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    the shop is fine. I always deal with the same mechanics in order to avoid those kinds of problems. They always show me the damaged part before and after repairs.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    OK. I am glad you brought this up, because now I feel even better about my '04 Elantra, which according to KBB would give me an insurance payout of only $1,175 less than what I paid for it 3-1/2 years ago. :)
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    If you can get a car others are paying $19,279 for, then go for it. Otherwise it seem to be $835 difference between Mazda and the Honda, and thus costing much more in the long run.

    As for total package, I looked at the stability control and other items offered in the V6 flavor of the SE series, I decided to go for the V6. As packages go in the Honda line, this particular model, the SE V6 represents the most bang per dollar.
    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Guess they use to sell cars by the pound, in ascending dollar value. Today I would say it is in descending order, as the lighter the car the more it cost to build, yet the performance increase can prove to be a positive. Cars handle better with less bulk weight and get more MPG. Heavy could be more steel in areas for safety, which is not a bad thing, but usually it means less engineering done to provide a light and safe car, and less use of lighter metals. If talking interior or overall size, I am thinking a used Crown Vic should do it - plenty large and should be safe. Then there is the Impala for a few more MPG and slightly smaller size.
    L
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