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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    That would explain why they made the 2-piece folding rear seat one piece for 2008.

    Actually, it has been one piece ever since I remember (my 1996 is a one-piece, as is my 2006).

    My dad had some base model (DX) Civics that didn't have A/C standard, but they had that split rear seat!
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Mazda may not be selling in CamCord territory, but they are quite possibly the ONLY division making $$$ for Ford.

    Mazda will never sell anything close to numbers you see from Honda/Toyota. They are OK with that. Mazda is making lots of money, showing Ford great return on their 33.4% stake in the company.

    Keep in mind, Mazda has the youngest average aged buyer in the entire industry, and they want to keep it that way. It is very important in terms of building brand loyalty when you have the youngest buyer. As long as Mazda keeps doing what they are doing, they will be around for a long time, and will only get bigger and more profitable.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Actually, I've understood this to be for rigidity, but I don't really know. If I needed a car for cargo more often than my limited use, I'd get a CR-V. Similar driving experience to an Accord, just a little slower.

    If you feel that a chunky sport-cute with a higher center of gravity and high profile tires has a similar driving experience to an Accord, that doesn't speak to highly of the Accord. That is not to say you aren't correct though.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I stand corrected then. I read that the rear seat was 60/40 in the prior generation (2003-7) but is now one-piece. Maybe the review was in error?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I'm sure you're not alone. :)

    BTW, the Civic-like steering spoke design has made it into a Hyundai... let us talk family resemblance. :shades:

    image

    If it were just another "family resemblance" thing, why would you bring it up? I guess you're not used to it in the Hyundai world. :D

    As for rear seat back, my 1998 Accord has one piece too. That is very un-Civic-like. And my 2006 TL's back seat doesn't even fold down (and neither it does in my friend's BMW M5). It has got cross members for additional structural rigidity. But that may not be important to you.

    As for 4-speed versus 5-speed, well, you have to first have a clue about why engineers go for additional speeds. I'm willing to bet you don't.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Another good reason to not rely on "reviews" by automotive journalists. :D
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    It speaks highly of CR-V, actually. It is one of the very few SUVs I would ever consider getting (but I won't).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually a one-piece folding seat back is very Civic-like. Those are pretty common on Civics in recent years.

    For me, the utility of a 60/40 folding rear seat is important. If an automaker can't make a car rigid enough and still offer a 60/40 rear seat, well, that's not my problem.

    As for not having a clue, every time someone takes a personal shot here rather than having a civil discussion, I just figure they have nothing else of value to say on a subject.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Why do you take an innocent little comment and turn it into an argument with derogatory personal comments?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Actually a one-piece folding seat back is very Civic-like. Those are pretty common on Civics in recent years.

    Civics have had 60/40 split-folding seat backs for years. I know, because I had a 2000. Accords haven't had it in several years. So, I'm still trying to figure out the point you're trying to make here.

    the utility of a 60/40 folding rear seat is important. If an automaker can't make a car rigid enough and still offer a 60/40 rear seat, well, that's not my problem.

    May be it is to you. But I'm sure BMW and Honda engineers have good reasons for it.

    So, I read something about taking a "shot" here. Are you talking about me posting a picture of "civic-like" steering wheel on Veracruz? :D
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Game. Set. Match. Malibu is and will be a loser, there is no way it can compete as I quote from Edmunds' own review "Despite a standard six-speed automatic, the V6 Malibu returns EPA fuel-economy figures of 17 city and 26 highway — a couple of mpg worse than its competitors."

    There is no way people are going to buy an inefficient 6 speed auto mated to an inefficient V6 engine. Gas is way to0 expensive to be buying less for the same amount of money. Also, our environmental future relies on companies that produce more fuel efficient vehicles. Again, why would anyone in their right mind settle for less power and less fuel economy at the same time?
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    If it wasn't for Ford buying the 33.4% share in Mazda, I doubt Mazda would EXIST (let alone thrive) in 2007. Mazda has set personal sales records with both the 3 and 6 since being "Fordified", and there wouldn't be ANY V6 for the NA-market 6 without Ford
    Mazda's engine development capabilities WERE adequately demonstrated in the Speed6 - and now all we get is a lousy 200hp and mediocre FE in a definitively non competitive Ford engine - and this is good? Mazda sets 'sales records' only because of some non-Japanlike discounting, whether the divison makes any real money is dubious at best. The company has historically been quite innovative and made some quite good cars. What happened, if not for that 33.4% you mention?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Yes, it seems the Speed6 was a much more competent effort than the 3.0 Ford V6.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Mazda sets 'sales records' only because of some non-Japanlike discounting, whether the divison makes any real money is dubious at best

    For the 2007MY, Mazda's discounting is similar to that of Honda/Toyota/Nissan. Keep in mind, Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Mazda disounting plans are devised by their North American opperations team, not headquarters in Japan. You have to look at how these companies do business in Japan to see what the "Japan-like" business tactics really are. Can you show any proof of that?

    MY2006 Mazda sales figures/profits here...

    http://www.mazda.com/publicity/release/2007/200704/070427f.html
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The current Civic DX and LX have a one-piece folding rear seat, according to Honda:

    http://corporate.honda.com/press/article.aspx?id=2005083038429

    So that is something that the new Accord shares with the Civic. Although at least with a Civic, you can get a 60/40 rear seat if you move up to the EX or Si trim levels.

    The "shot" was saying I wouldn't understand why an automaker would put 5 speeds rather than 4 speeds into a transmission. That is another way of calling someone an idiot.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Since Accord hasn't had split folding rear seats, at least for three generations now, but Civic has had it, it is only logical to say Civic is more Accord-like than otherwise. But you won't get it, would you? :)

    The "shot" was saying I wouldn't understand why an automaker would put 5 speeds rather than 4 speeds into a transmission. That is another way of calling someone an idiot.

    If that is the only you way you can look at the argument. But as far as I'm concerned, most people don't have a clue about transmissions and how they work. That doesn't make them idiots, it makes them less informed (not quite the same thing, is it?).
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    The "shot" was saying I wouldn't understand why an automaker would put 5 speeds rather than 4 speeds into a transmission. That is another way of calling someone an idiot.

    Glad you agree the domestic companies are "idiots" for those who are still using 4 speed automatics in their 4 cylinder vehicles (or even worse with V6 motors).
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    It seems to be a problem handed down from Aura. Is Malibu getting the 3.6?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Are there really car buyers who think "I sure wish this car had big intrusive hinges, instead of struts...I just know those struts are going to break"?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    This discussion came around last week when a friend of mine who has arthritis had borrowed my Accord for a day while her Jetta was in the shop. Later in the evening she was telling me that the Accord's trunk was so much easier for her to operate. I told her why it was. And then also told her that struts can fail to boot to which she responded that she had to get one replaced in her Jetta (which is just a 2002 model).

    If there were more who analyzed things like I do, we won't be having this discussion. And this is the car that helped me learn a few things (Lexus GS)...
    image
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Please re-read my post--that's not what I said, or implied, at all.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So with the 6-speed automatic available in the I4 Aura and also, early next year, in the I4 Malibu, does that make automakers like Honda "idiots" for only offering 5 speeds?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    While driving back to Dallas from Houston over the weekend, I noticed three 1990-1993 generation Accords over a short distance and that got me into thinking about longevity of cars. I can’t recall the last time I saw a Camry from that era, and in fact, 1993-1996 Camry has become a rare thing too despite of being a high volume seller in its day. OTOH, 1990+ Accords are very easy to find on the roads, and mid-90s Taurus is too, as are mid-late 90s Maximas. I don’t expect to see many Sonatas either but they can get the benefit of doubt for being low volume sellers.

    I would like to see the percentage of cars still on road that have been sold since 1990. Anybody knows a credible source?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Yes. That is one area I have been complaining about from Honda. They have been selling 6AT in European Civic which has the same engine as American version, just haven't considered it yet for American market in any of its cars.

    But at the same time, I don't want Honda to put a 6AT for namesake (that would be simply to appeal to less than informed buyers). When they do, it needs to be the real thing. The best candidates for it are 190 HP Accord I-4, and to some extent, the Accord V6.

    Interestingly enough, I feel Honda could stick better 5AT ratios in Accord than they have, and have it even better than some 6ATs being sold in front drivers.

    With powerful front drivers, it is more difficult to extract the full potential of 6AT.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    OTOH, 1990+ Accords are very easy to find on the roads, and mid-90s Taurus is too, as are mid-late 90s Maximas.

    I think this is very regional. I see a lot of 90-93 Accords on the road but they are starting to lack rear quarter panels. I actually did well selling mine because being from California, it had no rot.
    The Taurus with the Vulcan V6 will run forever, even the A4OD was somewhat under-stressed by that application. The later 3.8L was a motor that had a lot of longevity as well.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I see lots of Camrys from the '92-'96 generation, probably more than any other mid-sized car from that era, and lots of Buicks--many even from the '80s. Lots of Taurii from '95-on. I also see some '90-93 Accords, but like you I see a lot of rust on those. Lots of '94-97 Accords out there, they don't seem to have been hit by the rust bug as much.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Maybe you guys remember me posting pictures from being clipped on the interstate over the summer. Did a nice sum of damage, and I got my car back not too long ago (maybe 1,000 miles?). Well, I got rear-ended today, once again, in my 1996 Accord. That brings the total number of incidents (none of which I caused or was found at fault for) to FIVE in that car. None in my new one thank-the-lord.

    I'm beginning to think my beloved 12 year old Honda has a curse. Either that, or a magnet, which draws other cars to me! Luckily, I'm ok, and the damage is minor, but once again I get to play the "deal with their insurance company" game. UGH!
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Glad you're fine. It sucks to be in that situation.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    :cry: Yep, just lucky to have my 2006 while that one is in the shop. I'm actually thinking of selling old faithful (she needs some work that will be expensive - timing belt at $650 plus struts which would cost $800+ I've been told). Maybe when I get 'er fixed I'll put the sign in the window. I can't promise I won't cry though :cry::cry:
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I think guys driving domestics are jealous of the "last and run forever" Honda's and try to play target practice on them with the "won't run for long" domestics they have. :P So you better crash um while you still can! :P

    They try to run the Honda's into the junkyard due to collisions.

    My GF got rearended by a Taurus and a Jetta in her Civics.

    I got rear ended by a Mustang in my Accord.

    I've never hit anyone else's vehicle excluding hits under 3 MPH.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    My experiences belie yours. I got hit by a Honda Pilot this time. The time before, I was clipped by a man in a 1988 Chevrolet S-10 Pickup - proving they can run for an awful long time too. He was going 75-80MPH, so he wasn't pushing it in the slow-lane.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    yeah right - just a few weeks back one Mazda dealer (Houston) was offering all 6s in stock at $6000.00 off MSRP. On a %20k sticker that would only be about $4k UNDER invoice! (including the rebate/financing that naturally went along with it.)
    The day that Camcords (even on model year changeovers sell for that kind of price - the same day that the sun rises in the west! Toyota and Honda would literally disinfranchise any of their dealers caught doing such thing - perserving the brand's value now and later is THAT important, to both them and to those that invested in one of those particular cars.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    My Accord was about 4.5-5k under MSRP. I cannot imagine anyone paying sticker price for that car, ever.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Which Accord was that? When did you buy it? I can see dealers going a few hundred dollars below invoice during year end clearance, but thousands? Well...
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    FYI - and I would hope that everybody knows this - 'invoice is about MSRP * .9 on about all cars made. Factory options tend to work on or about a .85 muliplier, dealer options - is 'Katy bar the door' Once saw a new Camry SE on a lot with 19" tire and wheels - looked horrible and drove even worse. Dealer price for the tires/wheels? How about $8000.00, for maybe 1500 or 2000 'worth' of stuff. Wonder how much 'discount' I could have gotten on that one? Paying sticker for a car - you only do that when the car you want is in very high demand, you haven't done any research, and you probably can't find any in dealer inventories.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    little known to many buyers is that amongst the dealers they can tell you almost precisely what the other guy is likely to do pricewise. A dealer out there cutting prices significantly will likely incur the wrath (and non-cooperation) of those neighboring dealers and also might just receive a 'nasty' letter from the distributor/mfgr.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    2007 Honda Accord EX Purchased end of July, 2007 MSRP 23,145 (invoice is right around 21k) Purchase Price 19,000+ mask, "mud guards,"and trunk mat. I still think I overpaid, and I think I could've found a better vehicle for me for 19k, but alas, I can learn about the great resale value in 18-24 months.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    What better car could you have found than an 07 EX Accord for 19k? What a great deal!
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Thanks, I appreciate that. :) Did my parents put you up tio that? :P And I think it is a great car for most people. It gets good mileage, does a great job with an infant seat, and has a good sized usable trunk. It should also hold its value pretty well.

    I think a Mazda6 Touring with the V6 and a 5 speed manual would have been more my cup of tea and in the same price range more/less. Or a Legacy turbo sedan (but we already have a wagon and don't know if I can't deal with having 2 similar cars).

    I guess what I really should've done is looked harder for an '06 Mazda6 or Legacy GT in the 10-15k range, or a certified E46 3-series.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Or, perhaps an optioned-out Sonata Limited.

    Our Sonata SE (V6, like the Limited) 8 months ago was $16,651 plus doc fee, reg & taxes was $18,189. The Limited was about $2K MSRP higher (car price would have been about $18,500 before doc & TTL).

    Nothing wrong with your choice, just that there are alternatives which could give one more for one's money.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Or, perhaps an optioned-out Sonata Limited.

    Our Sonata SE (V6, like the Limited) 8 months ago was $16,651 plus doc fee, reg & taxes was $18,189. The Limited was about $2K MSRP higher (car price would have been about $18,500 before doc & TTL).

    Nothing wrong with your choice, just that there are alternatives which could give one more for one's money.


    Nah, no manual transmission in the V6, it was never on the list and the dealer only had the very base 4 cylinder with a manual (same with the Fusion).
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    I think you paid about the same as I got my mazda6 hatchback. The Accord definately has the better manual tranny and I'd give it the edge in seat comfort and interior looks.

    But I do love how my mazda6 can mix practicality, comfort, and fun driving dynamics. Hatchbacks are so handy for tossing in large items... it's proven to be very useful on many occasions.

    While being very practical, I also find the mazda to be the most fun to drive. It's likely true the 0-60 times are a few tenths slower (the mazda does this in the mid-6 second range), but the steering and braking and handling seem so much more direct and controlled... for a person like me who likes to be entertained when the opportunity arises, it's very nice.

    On top of all this, though, is that it's still a very comfortable and ergonomic car to drive. All the buttons are where I would expect them and they even have a quality feel when pressing them. I've taken 4 hour trips in comfort and without pains in my body that I'd get from my Subaru (loved the Legacy, hated the seats!). It can be quiet and orderly when driven conservatively (like when I take my Grandmother out for dinner) and has a compliant suspension that dampens the irregularities of the road nicely. The amazing thing to me is how well it corners despite not having a harsh ride. When my uncle and I took the RX-8 for a test drive, he said that was what Mazda is known for... having a great handling chassis that doesn't beat you up.

    To me, the Mazda6 is like a nicely dressed athlete with good manners and a willingness to help out with heavy lifting. But when asked, the car will respond in ways that make you remember why driving can be so fun. Edmunds' editors got it right when they picked the Mazda6 as the most desireable midsize car under 25k because it doesn't make you compromise on things that make a car great. And saving $6k+ off MSRP is nice too :shades:
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    I'll agree on the Vulcan 3.0 V-6 lasting forever BUT the 3.8 V-6 was/is a piece of crap. It had an immense amount of head gasket problems. Every year from its inception to its demise was affected...Ford never got it right. Head gaskets failed early and often. The dealer where I had our Taurus and Sables serviced had a dedicated tech. who replaced head gaskets and I always asked him how many miles on the current car he was working on. Most were less than 50K and some much less.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I'm beginning to think my beloved 12 year old Honda has a curse. Either that, or a magnet, which draws other cars to me!

    My 1991 Celica was the same way. I was rear ended, hit in the front passenger quarter panel twice, front driver corner and headlight, I hit a deer on the highway. By the time I got rid of it, my hood, front bumper, both quarter panels, trunk, rear bumper were all new! None of them were my fault, either. I traded it in, in 2002.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    And saving $6k+ off MSRP is nice too
    sure is - but did you really 'save" anything close to your $6k, when you find out that it is worth about that much less a few years down the road. I know, everybody who will justify overly discounted prices with a claim that they will be hanging on to this one until the wheels fall off...
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The '93 had 150k and 2 new wheel bearings, because well, I did just about drive the wheels off. :P
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I guess he meant the 3.8 would last forever, provided you replace gaskets periodically ;) . Maybe they should just have just put it on the maintenace schedule, then it

    We are the owners of a 3.8 (aka. sieve) in a Windstar. Luckily we were able to get all gaskets (not just the head gaskets) replaced for the cost of parts at a tech college. We were nearly at 100K mi. before they were a problem.

    What was most irrating is Ford recognized the problem but only if the engine were in certain vehicles...Taurus yes, F150 yes, Windstar no...just riduculous to claim that these same gaskets in the very same engine are or are not a problem based on which vehicle they stick the engine in.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    just a few weeks back one Mazda dealer (Houston) was offering all 6s in stock at $6000.00 off MSRP. On a %20k sticker that would only be about $4k UNDER invoice! (including the rebate/financing that naturally went along with it.)

    So, you pick one Mazda dealer out of the over 800 dealers in the country to generalize how Mazda Motor Corp. runs their business, globally. Are you kidding me? Really....that makes no sense!!

    Do you know how that Mazda dealer is getting paid by Mazda? Maybe their stair step program gives them so much back end money, that selling high volume makes them more money, even discounting like that.

    Toyota and Honda would literally disinfranchise any of their dealers caught doing such thing - perserving the brand's value now and later is THAT important, to both them and to those that invested in one of those particular cars.

    That is such BS. Honda and Toyota have no say in how any dealer franchise sells their vehicles. No say! Any dealer can sell any vehicle at any price they choose. They can ask more then MSRP, even though both companies do not condone it, and can sell below invoice, far below invoice if they want. Honda and Toyota do not tell their dealers "Do not sell below invoice, or we will pull your dealer franchise". That is some of the biggest nonsense I have ever heard.

    I know the owner or one of the biggest Honda dealers in the NY/CT area, and he buys his cars outright from Honda. He sells for invoice, and below on almost every Accord, to push volume. If he can make more, he does. Honda pays him $700/ car sold if he reaches his objective. Then, if his CSI is at a certain percentage, he gets even more money, an addition $500, I think per car. He sells over 200 new Hondas/month. That totals $240K/month. That does not even include his garenteed stair step money, which I do not know what it is, but, it's a lot.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    sure is - but did you really 'save" anything close to your $6k, when you find out that it is worth about that much less a few years down the road

    Just out of pure curiosity, I took a look in the thread "Prices paid and buying experience" in the Honda Accord forum, and saw many people buying 2007 Accords for THOUSANDS below invoice. The highest one I saw was 6,800 off MSRP. Now, it's either everyone in that forum is a liar, or Honda dealers are allowed to sell their vehicles at the price they want to, like I said they do.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    If they had wanted MSRP (23,145) or invoice (~21k) for that Accord, I would've walked. I was close enough to walking at 19k.
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