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  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    In essence, yes. I "expect" the next 6 to be just as fun to drive as the current model, this would make me biased toward the 6.

    Are you saying that because you're biased, or because you know how the car is oriented and expect it to carry on the tradition? Because, I'm far from being biased when it comes to Mazda6, but I can predict its personality. So, to me, bias doesn't play a role.

    If Fusion does well in the first generation, would it be unfair/ridiculous for CR to assume that the same can be predicted for the next generation? Perhaps, you could avoid getting into "predicted reliability" thing, and just wait for observed results to come out.
  • crutnackercrutnacker Member Posts: 41
    I'm a huge supporter of Consumer Reports, but always wondered why they seem to recommend new models by Honda and Toyota WITHOUT a year under their belt. Now we know. Frankly, I agree with everyone who says they NEVER should recommend a model in its first year or first year after its redesign, no matter who makes it.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    As I understand, predicted reliability is based on history. And I don't think they twist history for Honda and Toyota. For example, Honda Ridgeline (a brand new model) may have been recommended if Pilot already was. In fact, Ridgeline is Pilot with a bed (and a few chassis tweaks).

    I think the problem is more of perception that CR and like blindly favor Honda and Toyota. The issue really is that these two rarely launch a brand new vehicle. And when they do, like everybody else, the recommendation is based on the automaker's history. If they don't bode well with the prediction over time, the recommendation is no longer valid, as is the case with Camry V6.

    Name a vehicle that isn't a Honda/Toyota, but is recommended by CR. Then let me know if you think CR would not recommend its replacement when that happens. If you have an example, even better. That would help make your case.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Look what happened to the Mazda CX-7. A CEL problem that lingered a bit too long, and CR hit 'em hard. Ouch.

    I have seen a lot of people in this thread, and the Accord thread talking about staying away from the new Accord V6 until the jury comes back with a verdict.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    But to me, there should NOT be any "benefit of the doubt", whether they've scored well for 2 years or 20 years past.

    So 20 years of reliability means nothing more than 0 years of reliability? I think as long as CR puts the word "PREDICTED" in front of reliability, the company who has consistantly produced reliable cars can get that assumption. Again, as long as they use the word "PREDICTED".

    I think Toyota has fallen into the same trap that other car makers have (GM to name one). They are trying to build a different car for each customer. They are putting too much emphasis on expanding the model line, and not on the quality of each model. Honda, on the other hand seems to take time to develop each new model, and is less concerned with world domination. Will Toyota right the ship quickly, or will they have to learn the hard way, like GM is now?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    This information does not make a difference for me. Not that I personally would get a Toyota tomorrow, but CRs new recommendation means nothing, and I suspect it will be that way to a lot of people. Only a few people out of the hundreds of thousands that are sold would this matter to, imo.

    A person unhappy with a car that got a gold star is just as unhappy as a person with a car that didn't get the star. Toyota has a good reputation and is likely to keep that reputation.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Many people buy Toyotas--specifically the Camry, here--because of their reputation for reliability. If you take away the Camry's repuation for reliability, what big advantage does it have over the competition? What justifies its price premium over alternatives like Fusion, Milan, Aura, Optima, and Sonata? When that reputation is challenged by a widely-reported and read source, whether it's CR or some other source, it can't help Camry sales. What will be interesting to see in the next few months is if there's any drop in Camry sales, which have been strong up until now.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    This information does not make a difference for me. Not that I personally would get a Toyota tomorrow, but CRs new recommendation means nothing, and I suspect it will be that way to a lot of people. Only a few people out of the hundreds of thousands that are sold would this matter to, imo.

    I don't think this one thing (CR;s non-recommended) will doom Toyota. They still have the know-how to build some great cars. This will only be a blip on the screen, unless the trend of un-reliability continues.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think Toyota has fallen into the same trap that other car makers have (GM to name one). They are trying to build a different car for each customer.

    I totally disagree. I think Honda and Toyota make the least common denominator vehicles, ones that are acceptable for 70-80% of the market and not worrying about those that want something other than vanilla.
    Toyota only has the Corolla, Camry, Avalon and Prius for cars, 2 trucks, one SUV, and 2 crossovers...eh your right, that is lot of cars...and yet still completely unexciting...
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Many people buy Toyotas--specifically the Camry, here--because of their reputation for reliability"

    The people who have not had a problem, imo, won't care. They will get another Camry or Accord.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    It reminds me of the "dark" Bangle days of BMW. Look at them now. Naysayers doomed them into oblivion and now their style is much copied and they have taken the performance lead back from the competitors. But I digress.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    FJ cruiser, Rav4, Sequoia, 4Runner, Land Cruiser, and Hylander. That's six, for Honda's 3, Element, Pilot, and CRV.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Probably so. Unless... they keep seeing reports about the uptick in recalls of Toyotas... and the decline of Toyota's legendary fit and finish (cf. Camry)... and the decline in reliability of the Camry... and they think to themselves, "Hmmm, that new Malibu (or fill in the blank) looks pretty sweet, and the price is nice, maybe I should go check it out."
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Remember, at this point the only challenge to the reputation is with the V6. Even though Camry floods the streets, I can't recall seeing a V6 in recent memory. Most that sell are four bangers.

    That said, reliability is not the only reason these cars sell.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    There's so many contradictions. Many say Camry and Accord sell because of their "reliability."

    If "realibility" is failing Camry, why would one spend thousands of dollars more than they would for similar vehicles, some of which offer more standard equipment and better warranties?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You mean the Camry four-bangers that can't win a comparo even against the likes of a five-year-old Accord, a stripped Altima, and... an Optima? The four-bangers that have worse interior quality than a Kia? The four-bangers that have less power than almost anything else in the class? The four-bangers that don't offer safety features like ESC standard, such as competitors like Accord and Sonata? Those four-bangers? Sounds like something I'd pay thousands of dollars more for than the competition. NOT.

    Without the V6, or the HSD powertrain, the Camry is Just Another Family Car. And an expensive one at that.
  • crutnackercrutnacker Member Posts: 41
    I'm a Honda fan, but would have considered a Toyota in the past. What I'm noticing now is that Toyota cars seem to be getting noticibly cheaper looking, and Toyota seems to be doing a less than stellar job of restyling their bread and butter. The new Camrys paint and exteriors look cheaper than previous years, and apparently the design isn't up to snuff. The Corolla hasn't been redesigned in years (yes, I know there is a new one coming) and hasn't even had basic technology added to it to keep it competitive with other cars in the segment.

    I'm not knocking Toyota, but they need to realize that becoming the number one car maker is harder than losing that distinction.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    For example, Honda Ridgeline (a brand new model) may have been recommended if Pilot already was. In fact, Ridgeline is Pilot with a bed (and a few chassis tweaks).

    What?! Look at the interior. Look at the bed. Look at the towing ratings. They may share some components, but they are not the same vehicle. Why did the Ridgeline have some windshield problems where faulty seals were causing whisteling sounds and the Pilot was not? Or for that matter, since the Fusion is based on the Mazda6, using your logic, they should both have the same ratings... well they don't.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    In essence, yes. I "expect" the next 6 to be just as fun to drive as the current model, this would make me biased toward the 6.

    Are you saying that because you're biased, or because you know how the car is oriented and expect it to carry on the tradition? Because, I'm far from being biased when it comes to Mazda6, but I can predict its personality. So, to me, bias doesn't play a role.

    Nice selective quote robersmx... Here is what was written in full: "In essence, yes. I "expect" the next 6 to be just as fun to drive as the current model, this would make me biased toward the 6. However, for all I know, it could handle like a yacht and I'd hate every second of it. That's why I'll test-drive it as well as the competition to see what I'd prefer, previous experience be damned.

    I wouldn't make ANY decision about any NEW car until I have a chance to test it out for myself, just as CR shouldn't make the decision to "recommend" a vehicle until the evidence has piled in."

    That is nothing like how you portray it in your post. If you're going to quote someone at least try to keep it similar to what they write in the complete post.

    Or else I'll start quoting you as saying...(see only words in bold)

    Are you saying that because you're biased, or because you know how the car is oriented and expect it to carry on the tradition? Because, I'm far from being biased when it comes to Mazda6, but I can predict its personality. So, to me, bias doesn't play a role.

    If Fusion does well in the first generation, would it be unfair/ridiculous for CR to assume that the same can be predicted for the next generation? Perhaps, you could avoid getting into "predicted reliability" thing, and just wait for observed results to come out.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I had a quick business trip with the 07 Accord EX this week. It was the first time I drove it for more than 50 miles in a sitting. I logged ~550 miles in 18 hrs.

    1. 332 miles required 9.87 gallons a dead dinosaurs for 33.6 mpg. Given the types of roads I was on (rural highway w/curves and hills and occasional super-slab), and the extra-legal speeds I was traveling, I was very satisfied.

    2. The car has plenty of power w/manual trans. Passing on that rural 2 lane highway was pretty easy with just a drop into 3rd. I wish it gave a little more feedback.

    3. The tires are a weak link. The body rolling around doesn't help. That said, the car handles reasonably well, it just feels really unsteady while its doing it. It might be the lack of feedback.

    4. Not so much on the 4 hr drive there, but on the 4 hr drive back I got very figity and couldn't get comfortable in the seat. I played with the position and the lumbar and just kept figiting.

    5. If I ever need more trunk space than that car for a one person trip, just shoot me.

    6. Features all worked well, FM radio reception was good even in the boonies (although its ridiculous that there is no aux in or MP3 capability, I glad that got correct in the '08), the cruise control worked great, and tilting the sunroof and dropping the rear windows 2" got this great eddy effect in the back seat.

    7. Wind/road/tire noise was an issue depending on conditions.

    8. Headlight pattern was good, with good high beams. It doesn't have as sharp a cut off as the Legacy, which sometimes gives me a headache in certain conditions. I am sure I was overdriving the headlights even with the high beams on, but the light provided was about as good as one could ask for.

    All in all, it was a reasonably comfortable place to spend 8hrs. I think having suspension that felt a little more planted, a seat that was a little more supportive, and an iPod connection would make things about as good as one could want.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    What I'm noticing now is that Toyota cars seem to be getting noticibly cheaper looking, and Toyota seems to be doing a less than stellar job of restyling their bread and butter.

    I agree with you. Maybe that is why I don't have a Camry in my garage. However, there are a lot of buyers who for their own reasons look deeper than the sheet metal and decide the car is the one for them.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    So 20 years of reliability means nothing more than 0 years of reliability? I think as long as CR puts the word "PREDICTED" in front of reliability, the company who has consistantly produced reliable cars can get that assumption. Again, as long as they use the word "PREDICTED".

    The problem is, the lemmings out there don't catch the word "predicted". All they catch is "Consumer Reports" and "recommended". And of course, the ad agencies will emphasize this "fact" to no avail, while the fine print gets ignored.

    Sorry, but I'll take the words of JD Power and TrueDelta over CR terms of vehicle reliability.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    The people who have not had a problem, imo, won't care. They will get another Camry or Accord.

    Maybe. But reports like this may convince others to look around besides the Camry and Accord, and they may find something else they like, with the lower price and better warranty being the icing on the cake.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "But reports like this may convince others to look around besides the Camry and Accord, and they may find something else they like, with the lower price and better warranty being the icing on the cake."

    I don't think so, and most people don't give a hoot about JD Powers either. (As an aside ask if people alter their buying decisions based on CR or JD Powers, I have found the answer to be no in general) But this is a point we can argue until to the cows come home. I can see why people buy the Camry. For $21K asnd probably less, I can get a basic no frills, no headache Camry, why wouldn't I want it? While *you* may not want it, I would pick this over the competition including the Accord. At the higher end though, I would pick the Accord.

    In my mind, what they offer at this price point is the reason there are so many on the road.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    As an aside ask if people alter their buying decisions based on CR or JD Powers, I have found the answer to be no in general

    Instead of phrasing it the way you do, try asking if their buying decision was influenced by (their perception of) the vehicle's reliability.

    For example ask...do you think your Camry will be reliable? (assuming answer is yes) Did this have any influence on your decision to buy it?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "For example ask...do you think your Camry will be reliable? (assuming answer is yes) Did this have any influence on your decision to buy it?"

    This has been my point for years. It's not about the statistics, it's about "my" vehicle. Do I think "my" vehicle will be reliable? My answer always is: "I hope so."

    There actually isn't any modern vehicle I'm overly concerned about. Years ago it was a different story.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I agree. I rarely see a V6 Camry on the streets. Also, those that have been buying Camry's for years are not going to stop because CR said their quality has slipped, especially if they have yet to have an issue with them.

    The only real affect in sales would be felt by potential new Camry buyers looking at the V6.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    What about the people that were affected by the recent problems? They might be more inclined to stick with Toyota if their vehicle was still recommended by CR.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    For $21K asnd probably less, I can get a basic no frills, no headache Camry, why wouldn't I want it?

    Well, here's a few reasons why I would pass. As you said, it's basic and no frills, compared to a loaded competitor. At this price, the Camry will be a basic LE with plastic wheel covers, I4 engine, perhaps no VSC or traction control, basic stereo system, cloth interior, probably a manual driver's seat. OTOH, at the same price one could get a competitor with V6, or an I4 with 17" alloys, ESC with traction, uplevel sound system, leather interior, power driver's seat, and other niceties such as a longer warranty. Plus a better handling car, and (subjective) a better looking car with a higher-quality interior.

    As for no headaches... other competitors are reliable also--Accord, Fusion, Milan, Mazda6i, Sonata etc. "No headaches" is not worth much when it's not a differentiator.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Well, here's a few reasons why I would pass. As you said, it's basic and no frills, compared to a loaded competitor"

    I understand you are pickier than the average Joe and you might pass. But to many customers this car fits the bill. Producing mass market appliances is one of Toyotas strengths.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, I agree Toyota is a master appliance maker. But tell me... if the average buyer could buy a basic but reliable white refrigerator, or a reliable stainless steel fridge with icemaker, in-door water and ice, spillproof glass shelves, meat and veggie containers with separate climate controls, and a few other doo-dads including a longer warranty, for the same price--which would they tend to buy? I bought (literally) the stainless steel model. :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I bought (literally) the stainless steel model.

    You bought a DeLorean? ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No, the refrigerator. I said "literally"--I meant it.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Both of my Accords do something similar when coasting down a hill. If I'm coasting at 50MPH in my 1996, the RPMs stay at 2,000RPM or so, but if I barely touch the gas a moment, the revs drop to about 1,500 or so and stay there even after I let off the gas, making it feel like it's freewheeling. I have a video of that I intend to put on youtube to show you if you want to know what I mean. Any ideas what causes this?

    You can see what I mean by the video link below. It happens after about 00:25.
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=uUJwOYR_lqY
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    There actually isn't any modern vehicle I'm overly concerned about. Years ago it was a different story.

    We had some significant concerns, in this regard, about the jaguar X-type, when my wife was considering one in 2005. Aside from that, similarly to you, we hoped and expected that whatever we bought then would be reasonably "reliable" and so far the VW Jetta she ended up choosing has been. Now, our standard is not perfection, there have been a couple things that needed fixing under warranty.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Your bump on the throttle at that speed may be enough to kick in the torque converter lock-up.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The thing is, on the interstate at 60, with it locked up, it runs 2350RPMs. 1500 is a LOT lower at 50MPH. At 50, it is already locked up at about 1950RPM I think.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    If I was buying a car I would go with what my intuition says to me. Which means I might go for less warranty in exchange for a perception of better ownership experience.

    the difference between a refrigerator and car is about $19,200. enough to give me pause.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    OK. I tend to buy based more on logic, research, financials and other boring stuff like that vs. intuition. To each his own.

    If you are buying a Camry, the difference to a refrigerator is $19,200. If it's something like a Fusion, Mazda6i, Optima, or Sonata, it's more like $14,000-15,000 :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I'm willing to spend the extra money to get a car I'm comfortable with in the long haul. Check my carspace pictures.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    How can you not consider the mountain of evidence, which is track record for 20 years, as not being evidence that has piled in????

    I just don't get it.

    Again... if you we're forced to bet on sports, wouldn't you pick a team with a good track record lately (New England Patriots) than one who has been spotty lately (Chicago Bears)?
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Since the vast majority of Camry's sold aren't the V6 model, this reduction in sales (should it occur) will have little effect on the bottom line.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    There is a difference between making a judgement that..."this new camry is likely to be reliable" and an organization such as CR putting a "recommended" label on a car using different criteria for different manufacturers.

    What need was there for this, anyway? It's not like the readers are unlikely to come to the reasonable conclusion on their own that "this new camry is likely to be reliable". It was a dumb move on CRs part when they decided to do this a few years ago and it sure did not take long for them to get burned by it.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    if you we're forced to bet on sports, wouldn't you pick a team with a good track record lately (New England Patriots) than one who has been spotty lately (Chicago Bears)?


    Following that logic you should be picking the Bears every week for they did go to the SB last year. ;)

    How can you not consider the mountain of evidence, which is track record for 20 years, as not being evidence that has piled in????


    Because it is circumstantial evidence at best. Meaning nothing has been proven and CR should face that fact and not recommend a vehicle until they know more about it. Even when Honda was having tranny problems CR never flinched when making recommendations as far as I know.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Well, since the model with all those doo-dads has no proven long term track record, I'd anticipate lots of headaches from lots of problems and having to deal with LOTS of warranty issues and trying to get them to honor the warranty.

    NO THANK YOU! I'll take the problem-free longer lasting model! So in 5 years when your onto your next super stainless steel Fridge, I'll be just breaking mine in for the next 10 years.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    The Camry with 4 banger doesn't need a warranty as far as I know.

    More standard equipment with longer warranties means more warranty usage and headaches to me.

    Also, and most importantly, in the 90's and early 2000's even, the Camry did sell, for the most part, on being bulletproof basic transportation. Now with the new redesign, they have a state of the art drive train (V6) and one of the fastest midsize cars ever made.

    The thing can smoke the majority of 3 series BMW's in the dust!
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I think they've been doing it for eons, and they've rarely been burned. In fact, they are almost always right, Ridgeline, Prius as examples.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Following that logic you should be picking the Bears every week for they did go to the SB last year.

    Ha... well.. The Bears were great last year, but what did they do the year before? what are they doing this year? Still spotty if you ask me. Inconsistant would be another term I'd use.

    However, with NE, you could pick pretty much any game any year this decade and come out with a winner. Very consistent.

    Honda and Toyota-like.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • mz3smz3s Member Posts: 17
    "The thing can smoke the majority of 3 series BMW's in the dust!"

    Then turn left.........
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Yes, the Camry is a straight line racer car.... drag race car.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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