Midsize Sedans 2.0

tedebear · October 2007

Perhaps a better way to look at the situation would be, to list three reasons to choose a new Chrysler Sebring over Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Nissan Altima, Ford Fusion, Saturn Aura or Hyundai Sonata. In other words, what makes that car better than these others?

I'll be glad to. I just bought a 3.5L Sebring Limited sedan last month. Before I bought it I test drove a 2.7L Sebring, I sat in a Camry and I also test drove a 3.0L AWD Fusion. I never made it down the road to the Saturn dealer because after I drove the Sebring I knew that's what I wanted.

I was not impressed at all with the interior of the Camry and taking one for a test drive would have just been a waste of time.

I wasn't happy after my original test drive of the 2.7L Sebring. The 3.5L, with its 6-speed autostick, changed my mind.

The 3.0L AWD Fusion I drove had decent performance but it had a ho-hum interior, not much better than the Camry. Plus, there was just too much chrome on the front end for me to like.

The Sebring I drove and ended up buying had just about everything I could ever want - MyGIG GPS navigation, 20GB HD for storing up to 1,600 songs plus photos. UConnect hands-free voice commands with bluetooth to connect with my cell phone, Sirius satellite radio with real-time traffic interface, front seat DVD player and more. I'm a gadget guy and all this was sort of like a playground on wheels. I even noticed things like the nice, solid sound and feel the door made when closing.

Okay, in answer to your question...

1. It had what I wanted. The others I looked at didn't.

2. My family has been happy overall with Chrysler vehicles and I decided to finally give them a try for my personal vehicle.

3. I know some people in the auto business and I was able to get an employee discount, which saved me over $5,500 off the $30,000 MSRP, including a $1,000 rebate.

tedebear · October 2007

Unfortunately, your experience with Chrysler is the exception and not the norm. My dad's 87 Dodge Aries K car was a piece of dogpile.

As others have already pointed out, things have changed a lot in two decades. I could write a book about the problems I had with an import Isuzu Opel I had back in the 1980s.

louiswei · October 2007

Chrysler interior...

Yikes!!!

backy · October 2007

I'm a gadget guy and all this was sort of like a playground on wheels.

You've demonstrated that there's lots of different reasons for why someone buys a particular car. Having a "playground on wheels" would never make my Top 10 or even Top 20 reasons for buying a car, but that's why everyone has to evaluate cars based on their criteria and not others'. One thing Chrysler appears to have done with the Sebring is attack a niche market for people who like lots of electronic entertainment features in their sedans. Have fun with them!

akirby · October 2007

One thing Chrysler appears to have done with the Sebring is attack a niche market for people who like lots of electronic entertainment features in their sedans.

What about the Fusion with Sync? I thought the Chrysler only had a hard drive for music - does it do more than that?

pengwin · October 2007

Personally i like cars that are simple. It should be car, radio, GOOD A/C, comfy seats, and maps. I dont care for the Nav system because i live in a suburb, i know all my streets. Put all of that in a reliable package with good worksmanship and i'm a happy camper.

backy · October 2007

It looks like the Sebring's hard drive can do more than play music. And, does the Fusion have a front-seat DVD player?

backy · October 2007

Yes, I would rather have a car that itself is entertaining rather than its media systems providing the entertainment. And any need I had for a nav system has just been satisfied--my company just gave me a cell phone with built-in GPS navigation. Works in ANY car--even if I'm just a passenger.

andres3 · October 2007

Good grief - a 1987 anything was crappy by today's standards. You don't think Dodge has improved any since 1987?

Absolutely not. Chrysler is the exact same company it was 10, 20, and 30 years ago; that being a company that makes nothing but junk lemon cars :lemon:

I see no indication that they have ever improved on anything.

thegraduate · October 2007

Any credibility you had before just went out the window with that blanket statement. I say this, and my family has been burned by Chrysler and I drive a Honda. Your statement is still outrageous.

lilengineerboy · November 2007

Man I see why you needed those great Audi seats, your back must hurt from that huge chip you carry on your shoulder. :P

targettuning · November 2007

"Any credibility you had...." It was nil anyhow and, if possible, is now less than ZERO..0...nada...zippo.

pat · November 2007

This is not a discussion about other members - focus on the cars, please.

akirby · November 2007

Ok, I checked out the MyGig. It does store music on the hard drive but it doesn't interface with MP3 players except through a generic audio jack - no mp3 player control and no voice control. No bluetooth phone interface. And it does play DVDs on the built in screen - but only while you're parked. How many people watch DVDs while parked in their car and sitting in the front seat?

lilengineerboy · November 2007

And it does play DVDs on the built in screen - but only while you're parked. How many people watch DVDs while parked in their car and sitting in the front seat?

How many drivers do you want watching TV while they are driving? or are you thinking about having the video sent to the rear screens?

backy · November 2007

Well, not me. But apparently it was an important feature for at least one buyer, as he specifically mentioned it. I have a 9" portable DVD player that I use when we go on trips of over a couple of hours with the kids (which isn't that often), and play it back through the stereo system via a wireless connector. The whole rig including the connector cost less than $100. That's one of the reasons I have trouble justifying paying a premium for these features to be built into a car. That Sebring mentioned earlier listed for $30k and even with a huge special discount was just under $25k before T&L. You can get a very nice Accord or Camry for $25k, or even something bigger like a Taurus or Azera.

akirby · November 2007

No, I don't want the driver watching anything except the road. I was just indicating that I didn't see that as a really useful feature.

zzzoom6 · November 2007

Or for 25k, you could get a v-6 mazda6 with alloys, side airbags, a/c, cc, and have 8k in your pocket (just saw an ad in the paper for a 07 Mazda6 as described above for 17k - it was one of those ads that says one only, so I wonder how real it is). It was at a new Mazda dealership though, so I wonder if they are just trying to buy some market share right now... but still a great deal if you can find it!

backy · November 2007

Yes, there are many deals available for less than $25k. I was pointing out what $25k could buy instead of a Sebring with lots of electronic gear.

I wonder if that one-only Mazda6 was a demo?

robertsmx · November 2007

It seems people now buying cars to get hard drive instead of, to drive the car. That said, since I'm wary of anything but solid state when it comes to storage in a hostile environment, are these hard drives solid state?

After having lost a lot of data (which was recovered at a cost) to a damaged micro-drive in my digital camera, I've been wary of going that route again. No more micro-drives... compact flash works better. With proliferation of HDD based systems, I'm thinking along the same lines, especially in cars where extreme heat, cold and bumps could play a major role in terms of reliability/durability over the life of a car.

lilengineerboy · November 2007

I just don't understand why you want that much electronic storage in a car. You have everything at home, everything on your iPod, everything at work...how many places do you need to capture the same information?
Just let me plug my stupid iPod in and play it and control it. Design an interface to control the iPod in a vehicle that doesn't suck. I don't want to re-copy all my cd's in 50 places, especially if I already have a portable tool I can use.

robertsmx · November 2007

I don't, but apparently a lot of people couldn't live without HDD in their cars. Unless I'm sure about their long term durability in something like a car, I certainly don't want them in my car. I'm perfectly happy with 6-disc changers in my cars though. I may have replaced one or two DVD audio discs in my TL over last year. Those, combined with FM/XM seem more than enough.

I've one at home but have not used i-Pod in my car yet.

akirby · November 2007

Just let me plug my stupid iPod in and play it and control it. Design an interface to control the iPod in a vehicle that doesn't suck.

Is there something wrong with the Sync iPod interface?

aviboy97 · November 2007

Mazda has it. A fully integrated iPod cable designed by Apple for Mazda products.

pengwin · November 2007

lets hop on the topic of the azera. Why buy an azera over....a passat or a camry or an accord, especially the accord since its in the same class as the azera.

thegraduate · November 2007

Price v. Features!!!

The Azera presents a pretty great value as far as bang for the buck is concerned.

lilengineerboy · November 2007

Just let me plug my stupid iPod in and play it and control it. Design an interface to control the iPod in a vehicle that doesn't suck.

Is there something wrong with the Sync iPod interface?

I haven't gotten to play with it yet, but as far as I can tell, it is exactly what I am talking about. It interfaces with devices people already have, doesn't require them to do anything differently (like dump a bunch of songs on a hard drive) and provides a better in-vehicle interface.

akirby · November 2007

Correct. You can select songs for playback by playlist or song title or artist via voice command. Can't get much easier than that. And it doesn't require any additional wires or connectors. And it works on multiple MP3 players, not just iPods.

And new devices will also be supported via software upgrade.

zzzoom6 · November 2007

So looks like Ford is offering a discount to all the people in S. Cal who had their cars burned up in the recent fires. During the fire, they even donated 11 super duty trucks to help with the effort. Yeah the cynic in me says nice PR move, but to those who have lost a lot, it could make a real difference to them. So even if it is just a PR move, kudos for Ford for going further than other car companies to help out people in need.

discounts for fire victims

Of course, I wouldn't buy a car based on how generous a company was to people in need, but it is a nice gesture deserving of praise.

backy · November 2007

That is a nice gesture and also smart marketing for Ford. They realize lots of people will need to replace their cars. This is not a new idea, it's been done before after, for example, hurricanes, but a good move by Ford. I expect other carmakers will follow suit.

backy · November 2007

Interesting review from the Detroit Free Press on the Accord EX. To me it seems as if the writer was going out of his way to find something to justify the overall theme of "the Accord no longer leads the mid-sized pack." And he never does explain why he thinks other mid-sizers, and which ones, are now ahead of the Accord, and why the Accord merits only an "above average" rating, and an iffy one at that. Does he really think the new Malibu (not yet available), Fusion, Mazda6, Aura, and Camry are all superior to the Accord, which is what he implies with his closing remarks?

His comments about interior flaws do reflect the recent discussion here about interior quality slipping in general.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071025/COL14/710250367/1015/BU- SINESS01

elroy5 · November 2007

The fact that he is from Detroit explains everything, at least to me. This is exactly what people in Detroit want to here.

ergsum · November 2007

Actually the writer in question is not an import basher. If anything he has a tendency to deride the domestics more often than not when they do not measure up. He is more performance orientated in his choice of favored vehicles. Long time Freep reader.

moparbad · November 2007

The fact that he is from Detroit explains everything, at least to me. This is exactly what people in Detroit want to here.

Read more of Mark's reviews and you will discover he is an equal opportunity basher.

For people with a strong anti-detroit bias, I can understand how your conclusion could be reached.

imidazol97 · November 2007

Yes, he is negative against GM also.

Discussion Toyota's problems

Priceless comments:
What do you think of the J.D. Power surveys?" another executive asked me last week, regarding the quality rankings. "They're making us crazy" because Toyota's top models don't always finish on top these days.

"We get downgraded because of little things like a squeak or a loose piece. It's not like we had a transmission failure."

He went on to say that the company felt Consumer Reports magazine treats it more fairly. Of course, that was a couple of days before the magazine downgraded Toyota for problems ranging from squeaks and rattles to suspension and transmission faults.

pengwin · November 2007

is it built as well as the accord? will it be as reliable? those are the questions what hold me from even test driving one. Because, generally all new cars are gonna run better than my 14 year old one.

tedebear · November 2007

Ok, I checked out the MyGig. It does store music on the hard drive but it doesn't interface with MP3 players except through a generic audio jack - no mp3 player control and no voice control. No bluetooth phone interface. And it does play DVDs on the built in screen - but only while you're parked. How many people watch DVDs while parked in their car and sitting in the front seat?

My Sebring does have a bluetooth interface with my cell phone. I don't know if it was part of the MyGIG package or some other option but as soon as I turn the car on it connects. The hands-free interface lets me use voice commands to control the phone, GPS, radio and possibly the DVD player, although I have yet to watch a movie on it.

Also, the factory setting will not let you watch a front seat movie while in motion but there is already one hardware hack to get around it, available on the Internet. I wouldn't ever watch a movie while driving but it would be a great feature whenever my wife and I travel.

One of the options that you can get with MyGIG that mine didn't come with is a backup camera that automatically switches to the camera display when you shift into reverse. I'd like to add that to mine but I'm waiting the results of a Nitro owner who is adding a backup camera display to his MyGIG. The small camera attaches to the license plate frame. I've seen them on eBay.

One owner talked about the ultimate setup being to have an IR camera for the front view and a switchable display signal to send to the MyGIG screen for night stealth driving. Hmm...

benderofbows · November 2007

Last night I noticed something unusual in the interior of my 2007 Accord.

Directly in between the front seats is a center console with a cloth covering, which serves as an armrest (the whole top slides back and forth to allow the driver to adjust the position of the armrest). Well, in my car, the cloth covering has pulled out in the front. I'm going to see if I can get a picture of this and post it later.

The car has 10,800 miles. I have no other interior-related complaints, save for a very slightly misaligned glove box.

backy · November 2007

Edmunds.com has posted their first review of the 2008 Malibu, link on the home page. They tested the top-of-the-line LTZ with the V6 engine, but they must have driven other trims too because they had comments on the I4. Overall a positive review, although they didn't like the steering, or the 4AT in the I4.

The base Malibu looks like a nice package for only $19,995, especially this spring when the 4AT is upgraded to a 6AT. That undercuts Accord, Altima, and Camry and is in the Sonata's ballpark, but with some unique features such as OnStar and, soon, the 6AT. But not ESC.

Which reminds me, I noticed at least one gaffe in the review:

Front and rear head curtain side-impact bags and front-seat-mounted thorax bags are standard, along with dual-stage front bags. Standard ABS and traction control along with electronic stability control (standard on the Malibu LT and Malibu LTZ models) are there to prevent impromptu testing of any of those airbags.

There isn't a competitor that offers a better allotment of standard safety features.

Wrong. Both Accord and Sonata offer all of these features on every trim; Malibu doesn't offer ESC on the base trim. Now, if they toss in OnStar as a safety feature, then perhaps the statement is true. But they didn't. Also no mention of whether the Malibu has active front head restraints, which many mid-sized cars including Accord and Sonata have.

venus537 · November 2007

The new Malibu appears to be a pretty decent car. The last piece of the puzzle is in place for the onslaught of comparison tests to commence. Among the Camry, Malibu, Aura and Accord I predict the Accord to take the number one spot and the Camry to be last in most of them. Hey, the Camry is still the sales champ.

backy · November 2007

Based on Edmunds.com's review of the Malibu and reviews (and my own drive) of the Accord, I don't think it's out of the question for 1-2 comparos to put the Malibu at the top. But C/D will probably have the Accord at the top (and Camry near the bottom), while MT might tend to put the Malibu at the top--and make it their COTY, since the new Malibu is a significant car and that's what MT's COTY award measures.

I think 2008 is the year the Camry will lose the sales lead to Accord, unless Toyota dumps a lot of Camrys into fleets.

imidazol97 · November 2007

>unless Toyota dumps a lot of Camrys into fleets

Toyo can't do that after so many people have criticized GM for selling cars to fleets all these years, ridiculed GM, in fact.

backy · November 2007

Sure they can. They already sell lots of Camrys to fleets. I think it depends on how badly Toyota wants to hang onto the #1 sales position for cars. They are already undercutting Honda big time on leases, e.g. Camry LE for $184/month vs. $259/month for the Accord LX, with about the same money out of pocket. The new Malibu will take some mid-sized sales away from others too. So if Toyota wants to maintain the Camry's strong sales, it may have to increase fleet sales.

imidazol97 · November 2007

>already sell lots of Camrys to fleets

They should be selling them to individuals. That dilutes the value of the brand and the car to sell them to fleets. And they're dumping them in leases. That means in two years those used cars won't be worth anything!

backy · November 2007

Well, so much for the vaunted Camry resale value then!

robertsmx · November 2007

Toyota has consistently put about 14% units of Camry in fleet sales over last ten years or so. I'm not sure about how many went to fleet before that. That makes for an additional 60K in sales. So, while a relatively big number when compared to companies that don't do fleet much (Honda has traditionally limited itself to 2% or so), it isn't, when you consider 14% might be on the lower side of the average.

I think Chrysler is the brand that is suffering from it the most. In fact, I was shocked to learn that 79.4% of Avenger went to fleet (based on mid-year registrations, not over a full year). There seems to be a pretty long list of vehicles with more than a third of their sales going towards fleet. Here are some midsizers that top the list (w/minimum projected annual sales of 40K units)
Chrysler Sebring 63.50%
Chevrolet Malibu 58.80%
Dodge Charger 56.20%
Chevrolet Impala 53.90%
Kia Optima 52.80%
Chrysler 300 44.00%
Ford Five Hundred 43.10%
Mazda6 42.70%
Pontiac G6 36.20%

Now with these cars, fleet sales really becomes an issue. Most of them have less than half making it to a private owner. When fleet returns happen, these cars can't hold value, and resale suffers. For Camry and Altima (typically 16-18%), it is much less of an issue, even though they sell in higher volumes than most of these.

bhmr59 · November 2007

Do you happen to have info on the % of Sonata sales that are to fleets?

I think it was about a year ago that Hyundai said it was reducing fleet sales.

venus537 · November 2007

Based on Edmunds.com's review of the Malibu and reviews (and my own drive) of the Accord, I don't think it's out of the question for 1-2 comparos to put the Malibu at the top.

If the author of the Malibu preview drive is any indication of how the rest of the editors feel then the Accord will take #1 spot at Edmunds.

robertsmx · November 2007

The fleet numbers are based on half year registrations (Oct-Mar). For 2007, 27.6% of the total sales of Sonata went towards fleet. A year before that, it was 50.2%.

In number of units, 15K units of Sonata out of 54K sold went to fleet in first half of 2007. Over the same period a year before that, it was 42.5K units of 84.6K units sold.

So, Hyundai did reduce fleet sales from 42.5K units to 14.9K units going from 2006 to 2007. The retail sales was about the same, dipping slightly from 42.1K in 2006 to 38.9K in 2007 (same period).

backy · November 2007

Yes, I agree. Unless... they do one of those "what can you get for $XXk" comparos again and it happens to be a Malibu LT I4 with the 6-speed AT vs. the Accord LX. That could get interesting.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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