Midsize Sedans 2.0

elroy5 · December 2007

The Accord has been growing every generation since it's inception in 1976, and has added safety items at every model change also. So to imply that it was all because of the Sonata is a reach, since during most of those years, the Sonata didn't exist. Honda may have been looking into the future, but it was not the Sonata they were seeing.

Hyundai has admitted to taking a close look at a particular Toyota when designing the Sonata. But that Toyota wasn't the Camry, but the Lexus ES (the benchmark Hyundai used for NVH).

If Hyundai really used the Lexus ES as a benchmark, they should not have limited it to the NVH. There is soooo much more they could have drawn from that car to improve the Sonata, IMO.

kdshapiro · December 2007

So what? I didn't just talk about one COTY award. There's a pattern developing here. Multiple professional reviewers are saying that the Accord and (especially) the Camry are no longer the standalone benchmarks in their class. It's not spin, but facts.

That is not the way I'm interpeting these reviews. And from the automotivilly inclined people I speak to they agree. Let's see the sales back up your claim.

kdshapiro · December 2007

The Corolla is the top-selling small car, but it's been outclassed by the Civic and other small cars.

I'm thinking the Corolla is the benchmark. A benchmark offers people exactly what they want and nothing they don't. It has qualities that put it ahead of the competitors. Toyota hit the nail on the head with the Corolla.

backy · December 2007

I am "automotivilly inclined", you are speaking (via this forum) to me, and I disagree.

I'll be very surprised if the retail sales of the 2008 Malibu don't exceed those of the 2007 Malibu by a considerable margin, once production ramps up. It's pretty limited now, from what I've seen at my local dealer. They got only 2 Malibus in November.

backy · December 2007

Since the Corolla isn't a mid-sized car, I won't elaborate on your post except to say I disagree with every fiber in my being.

backy · December 2007

Maybe they did borrow more from the ES than NVH. But for a mid-sized family car that starts at 1/2 the price of the ES, isn't that pretty good by itself? :surprise:

iluvmysephia1 · December 2007

Toyota hit the nail on the head with the Corolla. And the damage done with that strike rendered that compact car utterly mundane, bland and minimalistic.

Minimalistic. I'd throw the CamCord duo in with that and we've got a bargain. Done deal. Until either Honda or Toyota shows that they don't farm out their body-designing to their 10 year old sons and daughters for extra credit and a Wally World vacation I can barely look at those cars, mush less consider parting cash for one.

With the new Sonata design from Hyundai and the new world order Optima from Kia, both loaded for less cash up front, these South Korean automakers have met and surpassed their Japanese counterparts in the mid-size family sedan class. When you throw in great body design along with total costs, great Warranty, etc.

Now, somebody beat N.E.'s Patriots this weekend and we can all have a Jack and Coke on John Madden and Al Michaels and celebrate. The two "Kings of Conformity" to ESPN and all of their east-coast bias'.

When Pittsburgh was enjoying all of those bought-off calls and missed calls and stupid refereeing in Super Bowl 40 against Seattle Michaels and Madden acted like "well...it did look like Jackson swept the pylon with his foot. Hummm..." And then forgot it like an old pair of Dennis Rodman's Piston socks. The NFL and it's whole support structure showed it's money-grubbing grandeur by throwing Super Bowl 40.

When Seattle's Seahawks visited Pittsburgh earlier this year for a 21-0 drubbing by the Stealers, wide receiver Deion Branch of the Seahawks got injured(mysteriously). What did one well-meaning Stealer fan do? They spat on Branch as he was being carted in to the locker room to go over his injuries.

Somebody beat N.E. this weekend. And just hope that those dorks that refereed Super Bowl 40 in Detroit on February 5, 2006, aren't ever allowed to ref another Super Bowl that your favorite team is on. Teams work hard to get to the Super Bowl and to have ESPN, the city of Detroit, the NFL and several idiotic referees(plus probably Lost Wages bookees) throw an entire season's chances to win a Super Bowl down the drain because "the Bus needed to get a Ring" and "it's just better for NFL football for an east-coast team to win...besides, the NFL wins more sales receipts for more gear if the Stealers win," well...that is immoral and idiotic and just plain wrong. The NFL is a corrupt enterprise.

If you're a N.E.fan and want to win the Super Bowl this year, never fear. The crew that reffed Super Bowl 40 between Seattle and Pittsburgh have been banned from ever refereeing a Super Bowl again. Why might that be? Is that an admission of guilt from the NFL front office? Or they're just concerned for the referee's safety. What a farce of supervision by the NFL administration group. And you still don't believe SB 40 was thrown?

Tee.

robertsmx · December 2007

I didn't say they were unique. But they can afford to provide a benefit to used car buyers that others with already long warranty (on new cars) can't. Tell me, what will be one advantage one would have buying a 1-year old Sonata over a new?

robertsmx · December 2007

Since the Corolla isn't a mid-sized car, I won't elaborate on your post except to say I disagree with every fiber in my being

I thought you were the one who brought Corolla into the discussion (Post 7761), not kdshapiro. So, why take an issue with it now? (I'm raising this since an argument like this has become a norm, going all the way to even the host).

robertsmx · December 2007

The wheels actually weigh less and result in lower unsprung weight which allows the suspension to work better.

If they weigh less, yes they would not only reduce unsprung weight but reduce drive train loss. However, how did you figure a larger wheel will weigh less? Unless the new wheel is designed using different material/engineering (adds cost), larger wheels add weight.

Remember, in most of these cases, it is not only the diameter of the rim that is increasing, wider tires require greater width too.

backy · December 2007

I brought up the Corolla in response to a post that claimed that any car that is a best-seller in its class is a benchmark. I used the Corolla and the Chrysler minivans as counter-examples to illustrate my opinion that best-selling does not equal benchmark. So shoot me.

backy · December 2007

Save money. There's others, but you asked for one. Good night.

thegraduate · December 2007

Your illustrations were valid, and do help prove a point. I get more joy operating a dishwasher than driving a Corolla.

robertsmx · December 2007

Then you shouldn't complain about someone talking Corolla in a response to your post which started it. Thats my point.

robertsmx · December 2007

And thats the point I made, and wanted to hear from you. How well does a use Sonata hold its value when the new ones are basically being given away (and with a longer warranty to boot)? Why buy old when you can get new for dirt cheap? May be if the old is even cheaper (and considerably so). This is just the beginning of a cascading effect and therein lies the essence of my point.

elroy5 · December 2007

Toyota hit the nail on the head with the Corolla. And the damage done with that strike rendered that compact car utterly mundane, bland and minimalistic.

And the Corolla does exactly what the owner wants it to do, which is get them from A to B reliably, being efficient in the process.

BTW. Go STEELERS,......Go PATRIOTS.............sore looser.

phaetondriver · December 2007

how did you figure a larger wheel will weigh less?
First case I weighed the wheels and tires from my car (Jeep Cherokee), 15 inch 225, 75sr 15's on steel wheels with hub caps on my bathroom scale. I bought a set of 17X7 in alloy American Eagles and Continental 225 55SR 17's
The weight difference was 30 pound per combination or 120 pound total unsprung weight saved.

If you weigh a 15 inch alloy wheel and a 17 inch allow wheel the 17 will weigh a little more, maybe 12 to 16 ounces depending on style. The weight will be saved in the tires. Both of the same width and diameter. There will be a lot less rubber in the larger tire. the weight of the rubber is more than the extra weight of the larger wheel, buy a couple of pounds each.
The big negative for lower profile tires is the harder ride due to the higher air pressure you need to run to keep the rims of the ground when you hit a pothole.

colloquor · December 2007

Depreciation, residual value, holding its value, et. al. are all moot points if you don't sell or trade in a car. One only loses money if you sell, trade, or get a settlement for an accident. If you pay a reasonable price for any car, whether it's a Honda, Hyundai, or Ford, and "drive the wheels off the car," it's always the most cost-effective approach to car ownership. I don't mind keeping a car I like, and enjoy driving, 10 to 20 years - as it becomes part of the family!

captain2 · December 2007

IMPO - Chevy's 'you've got to notice me now' ad campaign is well conceived and may serve to get real sales (sales - fleet sales) to Altima type levels, but still short of the Camcords obviously. Reminds me of the 'ugly' ad campaigns that VW used to run many years ago - turning a negative into a positive. The XR has not been doing very well in quality/reliability reports, it will hurt GM if this happens with what should be a big seller, or if they don't have the production capabilities to meet demand. A Malibu buyer will likely expect some 'Detroit' style discounts, something that won't happen if the car is in short supply as you suggest.

jeffyscott · December 2007

If you pay a reasonable price for any car, whether it's a Honda, Hyundai, or Ford, and "drive the wheels off the car," it's always the most cost-effective approach to car ownership. I don't mind keeping a car I like, and enjoy driving, 10 to 20 years.

Yes, most can not bring themselves to do that, apparently. Then there are also some who drive 30K mi per year...can not plan on 10 years+ if driving that much.

However, I think if you buy the car you like best then you are likely to want to keep it longer. Buying something you will keep longer, whether it is more or less expensive (within reason) and has greater or lesser depreciation, will most likely be the better financial decsion.

Sporin · December 2007

I'll make another comparison between my 05 Mazda6 Wagon and my new 08 Accord LX.... turning circle. If you hit up the Mazda6 owners boards you've probably already heard about the 6's infamously huge turning circle. When I told my wife about it she assumed I was exaggerating but quickly recanted after trying to park in a tight parking lot.

While my new Accord is longer and wider it is noticeably easier to park and the turning circle is very tight for a car it's size.

Not a huge deal, but an interesting (IMO) thing to note.

Another thing I'll complain about is TPMS (Tire pressure monitoring systems). As a lifelong NH & VT'er I've bought a set of steel wheels and dedicated snow tires for every new car I buy. Since I have air tools in my garage it's a simple 20 min. process to swap over the snows. This generally runs $500 shipped to my door and teh tires last 3-4 seasons easily. Cheap insurance and peace of mind.

Well those days are over. If my Accord doesn't "see" it's TPMS signals from the wheels it will light a warning light and possibly throw a code.

This means I now have just snow tires that I have to pay someone $50+ each spring and fall to swap back and forth on the same rims. OR I can spend an extra $350+ for a second set of TPMS sensors on a TireRack Winter set of steelies and snow and hope they work with my car's computer.

Not to mention if the stem in the sensor is wrecked you have to replace the entire sensor ($150 each from Honda) :mad:

The swap costs really add up over time, not to mention the hassle of making appointments and shuffling the car around to have it done. I also prefer to do the work myself as I know how to use a torque wrench.

Frankly, I find it appalling that so many people (presumably) can't be bothered to check their tire pressure regularly so we have to have a gov't mandated nanny device to "save us from ourselves" all creating more complexity and COST to the consumer.

kdshapiro · December 2007

With the new Sonata design from Hyundai and the new world order Optima from Kia, both loaded for less cash up front, these South Korean automakers have met and surpassed their Japanese counterparts in the mid-size family sedan class

Are your referring to the same automobile manufacturers listed in the title of the thread as I am? Because I don't see "met" much less "surpassed".

imidazol97 · December 2007

>The big negative for lower profile tires is the harder ride

Aren't the tires more susceptible to damage from potholes that ordinary tires with a deeper sidewall absorb with impunity? Give me the real tires and 15-16 inch rims that absorb shock and roll smoothly.

lilengineerboy · December 2007

Frankly, I find it appalling that so many people (presumably) can't be bothered to check their tire pressure regularly so we have to have a gov't mandated nanny device to "save us from ourselves" all creating more complexity and COST to the consumer.

No one has ever gone broke underestimating the intelligence of the general populace. I find it appalling that the EPA changed the way they rated fuel economy because people wanted to continue driving like Mario Andretti, and still feel like they were doing a good job and getting the mileage on the sticker.
I also find appalling the public acceptance of lane departure warnings...these things give feedback if someone is going out of their lane on the highway. People complain that it buzzes every time they change lanes...that means they aren't signaling when they change lanes.
Sorry about my occasional lack of faith in humanity.

elroy5 · December 2007

The EPA felt it had to adjust the estimates, because most people in "real world" driving were not coming close to the estimates, and did a lot of complaining (squeaky wheel gets the grease). To me, it doesn't matter which method of calculation they use, it will not change what I get in my own car, driving they way I drive. The EPA estimate is only for comparison between models, but many people expect it to be more than that. I have no problem with it.

Tire pressure monitors and lane change sensors are unnecessary, IMO. If they cost more than 2 cents, it's more than I want to pay for something I don't need, and is more likely to be a neusance than an asset.

basiliskst · December 2007

I suspect the influx of tire monitoring systems is tied more to liability for automakers when the technology is "available" and not provided. The systems showed up first on high speed or high profile (trucks and SUVS) that are more prone to problems when tires fail catastrophically. The search for deep pockets after an accident is real. I doubt many juries will hold an owner responsible for failure to check tire pressure when most jury members don't do so with their own tires. Most drivers do not know that all tires lose air over time or that tire pressure varies with temperature of the tire. This is actually one of the benefits of the quick oil change chains. If you really service your car every 3,000 miles, the basics like tire pressure do get checked regularly.

With more safety and luxury features, It's easy to see how cars of the same basic size have gotten significantly heavier over the last fifteen years. A personal favorite and rarely mentioned "safety" feature is a trip computer that includes outside temperature. Living in snow country, I like to know when road temperatures may be approaching freezing. Antilock brake systems (ABS) and their extensions, traction control and stability control, are also great features when the weather turns bad.

I'm glad to have better crush zones and side curtain airbags, even with the added weight. Are there any safety features you would give up to save weight if liability issues didn't dictate their inclusion? In engineering it is always a balancing act, but for me, I like the added safety.

robertsmx · December 2007

TPMS is actually an NHTSA mandated feature now, beginning Sep '07, 100% of the cars sold should have it.

robertsmx · December 2007

Not all folks hang on to their cars forever. In fact, few do. So, you can't throw depreciation, residual etc. out. Do you seriously believe used car market is a moot point for an automaker, and that they don't have to worry about it?

lightfootfl · December 2007

My questions about the tires are, what kind of differences do you find with regard to the speedometer readings, :confuse: and the mileages both in mpg and tread wear mileages obtained, and/or lost when changing from one size to another. :confuse: ie. from 17" to 16" or vice versa ? I recognize the differences in the sidewalls etc.. but don't know about these matters. I am thinking about practicality and cost more than style. PS I personally think some of the larger tires do look "ugly" too. My personal opinion. Thanks for your comments.
:confuse:
van

robertsmx · December 2007

You compared two different set ups (15" steel wheels versus 17" alloys). Typically, larger size isn't limited to just adding an inch to the rim and taking an inch off the sidewall. Generally it also means wider rims.
Accord LX-P: P215/60/R16 (16x6.5)
Accord EX/EX-L: P225/50/R17 (17x7.5)
Accord Coupe/V6: P235/45/R18 (18x8.0)

The new 17" rim/tire has actually been weighed against the old (P215/50/R17, 17x7.0) rim/tire to note a difference of about 30 lb, with the new larger wheel being heavier.

Tires may or may not be substantially different in weight (the sidewall may be smaller, but now it is wound on a larger diameter rim, even with no increase to width). Each Michelin MXV4 Plus tire in new Accord (LX/LX-P) is 5 lb heavier than the same brand/speed rated tire in my old Accord.

The reality is, when efficiency counts, automakers do worry about these little details. But in a rush to woo "I want big" crowd, they doesn't seem to care less. Besides weight, it also reflects in replacement cost, and something often missed... turning radius (upsize tires are usually wider). And I can see that frustration from someone like urnews who has a Fusion SEL/AWD. Not only does it come with big tires, it also comes with bigger replacement cost, weight, reduced efficiency and poorer turning radius. But I'm sure "give me big" folks like the looks of it.

pat · December 2007

You're right, not my intent - "ploy" just means "strategy" - perhaps that would have been a better choice. Thanks.

robertsmx · December 2007

Different tire sizes can have an impact on speedometer reading, especially if they are not caliberated with those differences considered. I quoted three sizes that are being offered in 08 Accord. Here they are again, with calculated diameter in inches:
P215/60/R16: 26.15"
P225/50/R17: 25.86"
P235/45/R18: 26.33"

The 18" wheel has the lowest profile tire but still ends up with the largest diameter. 17" rim is next when it comes to sidewall size, but smallest when it comes to diameter. The size difference between the two is about 2%.

Now, speedometer in all three may be caliberated to consider the size difference, or a median may have been used for all three which will minimize the difference to some extent.

backy · December 2007

I'm not sure what you mean by "complain". What I did was point out that the Corolla is not in the mid-sized sedan class, thus I kept my response re the Corolla short out of respect for those that come here to learn about mid-sized cars. I didn't point my finger at anyone and "complain" that they mentioned the Corolla. Just stated a fact.

You realize of course that both of your posts "complaining" that I stated that the Corolla is off-topic are, uh, off-topic.

As is this post! So why don't we drop this chirping about a short post that mentioned the Corolla and get back to mid-sized cars?

backy · December 2007

Why buy a new anything (car) when you can save thousands buying used? What does this have to do with mid-sized cars in general or the Sonata in particular? This is true for all new vs. used cars. I don't know any mid-sized family cars that appreciate over time. You pay a premium for the pleasure of driving away in a brand new car. Wait awhile, buy a used one, and save a lot of bucks.

pat · December 2007

He's mad at me, not you. :-)

You're right, we should drop this and move on.

robertsmx · December 2007

Since you chose to respond, let me point out something before moving on. You started the argument around benchmark and quoted Corolla as a part of it. To which, when someone responds that Corolla is indeed a benchmark, you took offense that we shouldn't discuss Corolla as it is not a midsize sedan. What was that?

Don't bother responding though, as we both have an idea and it will take nowhere but OT.

robertsmx · December 2007

Indeed.

I'm not against using arguments involving cars from different class if it helps make a point here, which I thought the original post that started it all did. I'm against tunnel vision, double standards and lack of perspective often used to make points.

pat · December 2007

In any case, it really is time we dropped all of this clearly superfluous nit-picking and get back to the subject.

Thanks.

kdshapiro · December 2007

Doesn't the warranty get reduced dramatically for Hyundai vehicles after the first owner. So as you are suggesting the warranty is not 90K miles, it's much less.

robertsmx · December 2007

Not with certified which is where I'm focusing the discussion as it involves automaker in used car market. But yes, it does get trimmed down in half on private sale.

effect18 · December 2007

Personally, I've had bad experiences with past used vehicles which is why i'd rather take the hit on the markup, and buy new. You never know what kind of driver that previous owner was, and problems can remain hidden for a while. Exceptions do occur, but i think like this.... if there was nothing wrong with the car, why are you selling it? Also, people tend to be hard on cars they don't intend to keep... same way people treat rentals. Also, i have yet to see a bumper to bumper warranty offered on a purchased used car. If they gave like a 3 yr bumper to bumper on a used Hyundai,kia, mitsubishi (down from 5) i'd consider it. Until then, i don't like taking chances.

robertsmx · December 2007

My first three cars were all used, with a lot of miles (1982 Supra-Celica, 1988 Corolla GT-S Coupe, 1992 Camry LE). Coincidentally, the most trouble I had was with the one that wasn't used much (had fewer miles on the odometer than the others) and that was the 1992. The Corolla was the most impressive of the three, and except for moonroof (it was an aftermarket unit), there was nothing that failed, from my ownership beginning around 99K miles till the last time I saw it in the hands of the next owner at 168K miles.

Recently, a friend of mine was looking for a car. Since he drives 20K miles/year, both warranties on new car would be history in 2-3 years. I suggested taking a look at slightly used certified Accord, and we found one with only 9K miles.

In this case, he was getting 39K miles on bumper-bumper warranty and had almost 91K miles for power train coverage left. On top of it, he saved a little over $2K over buying new. The downside to it was that this wasn't the 2008, but he was looking for a 2007 to start with, to save a few bucks from clearance. And got a lot more in return. And the car looks and smells new.

lilengineerboy · December 2007

The EPA felt it had to adjust the estimates, because most people in "real world" driving were not coming close to the estimates, and did a lot of complaining (squeaky wheel gets the grease).

As opposed to just teaching people how to drive, which is what should've happened.

Tire pressure monitors and lane change sensors are unnecessary, IMO. If they cost more than 2 cents, it's more than I want to pay for something I don't need, and is more likely to be a neusance than an asset.

While I am sure that you (and all forum users) are a diligent motorist and would never dream of driving without checking your inflation pressures and risking a blowout on the highway that could endanger your family or your fellow motorists, nor would you ever dream of driving in a compromised fashion (on the phone, drowsy, etc) or change lanes without signaling, but there are others that do, and I would like to provide the guidance to those motorists to make the roads safer for me and my family.

That said, I appreciate driver aids in the midsize sedan segment, since they are the most popular vehicles.

pat · December 2007

Here's the link: hillfranh, "Hyundai XG300 and XG350" #2042, 2 Dec 2007 4:20 pm.

lilengineerboy · December 2007

You compared two different set ups (15" steel wheels versus 17" alloys). Typically, larger size isn't limited to just adding an inch to the rim and taking an inch off the sidewall. Generally it also means wider rims.

And in most driver oriented vehicles, it includes larger brakes. The MazdaSpeed6 needs larger wheels to clear the larger brakes. The same is true with the Legacy GT over the base Legacy. Of course, since the '07 Accord had the weakest tire/wheel package in the class and the longest stopping distances, the point of larger brakes might be lost.

turning radius (upsize tires are usually wider).

That doesn't affect turning circle. Case in point is the '08 Accord lists the same turning circle for the entire line, 4 and 6 cylinders, all trim levels.

And I can see that frustration from someone like urnews who has a Fusion SEL/AWD. Not only does it come with big tires, it also comes with bigger replacement cost, weight, reduced efficiency and poorer turning radius.

Actually, the 4 cylinder is listed at 38.7' and the V6 is listed at 40', making no mention of tire size or trim level. The steering rack for the V6 is a different part than the steering rack for the 4 cylinder, which is the increase in turning circle.

I don't understand why someone would by a car based on how it handles and then complain about the tires that give it those properties. I think my Accord can use the same 15" wheels the base model uses, and I don't see myself running out to get those (well, maybe for snow tires...).

For the most part, there are enough tire options out there in enough sizes to keep the masses happy, it just takes a little research to find a replacement tire that meets that particular driver's needs. The $40 Kumho Ecasta ASX was fantastic on the '93 Accord, and I doubt I will have the '07 long enough to buy tires for it.

elroy5 · December 2007

I would like to provide the guidance to those motorists to make the roads safer for me and my family.

You have a valid point, and I agree, but when does the cost of a safety item outweigh it's effectiveness? Do responsible drivers have to pay for safety items they don't need? If my car is changing lanes, I will know about it. And I don't need a buzzer going off, to tell me something I already know.

elroy5 · December 2007

What's ironic, is that the same people who want the big wheels, for the "Bling" factor, are some of the same people who will complain that their car has a harsh ride. :confuse:

bhmr59 · December 2007

Unless things have changed for '08, the Hyundai 5yr/60K bumper to bumper remains in affect from one owner to the next. It is the power train warranty of 10/100 which is only for the original purchaser (it drops down to 5/60 for a second buyer). However, if the original purchaser buys Hyundai's extended warranty, that is transferred to a subsequent buyer. The extended warranty is 10/100 for all warranty items based upon the age/mileage of the car regardless of 1st, 2nd or 3rd owner, etc.

phaetondriver · December 2007

Here they are again, with calculated diameter in inches:

You can throw the calculations out the window. Go to Tire Rack (.com) or another good online tire company and you can find out exactly what the tire diameter is for each tire. You will find that even though one manufacturer might make 5 tires of the same dimensions and you will find up to 5 different widths, and diameters based on the tire and the specific rim width it is mounted on. So you need to evaluate every tire that you are considering using to make sure it is close to the original diameter to keep the speedometer close to accurate.
Also just because one decides to replace his OEM wheels and go Plus 1, plus 2 or plus 3 (inch) rim diameter, he will most often maintain the same offset and rim width with the same tire width so there is less likely hood of a tire body rub issue.
The only dimension that needs to be changed is the profile or sidewall height.
Of course many go larger all the way around and use wider tires for better traction, I have done this many times, but it isn't required.

My example for the jeep saved 30 pounds each. Using the information form Tire Rack I conclude the original tires weighed 30.5 pounds each, The replacement tires weighed about 22.7 pounds. The rest of the weight saving was form Alloy rims replacing steel.
Replacing an alloy wheel with an alloy wheel obviously wont make a big difference and maybe only 3-5 pounds per tire so one could expect to see between maybe 4-5 pounds after the change. That may not sound like much but to the suspension components, springs, shocks and sway bars, it is enough to make a noticeable difference in the way the car handles.

robertsmx · December 2007

Do you really believe automakers are putting larger wheels to accomodate larger brakes? Think again. To use Mazda6, brakes don't grow with wheel size going up from 17" to 18" (it does only with MS6 which has 18", and understandably so because it is performance oriented as opposed to being pedestrian).

That doesn't affect turning circle. Case in point is the '08 Accord lists the same turning circle for the entire line, 4 and 6 cylinders, all trim levels.

Not quite. While turning radius also depends on track, tire's width/size does play a role. Here you go:
Fusion
(P205/60/R16): 38.7 ft
(P225/50/R17): 40.0 ft

Actually, the 4 cylinder is listed at 38.7' and the V6 is listed at 40', making no mention of tire size or trim level.
V6 with the smaller size is same as I-4 (which comes with smaller wheels). It is the SEL trim (which comes with larger rims) that has larger turning radius.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles