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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    You made that up. :D

    OnStar Plans

    Interestingly enough, for 2006 vehicles, the cost is $399/year. I'm also wondering how tax on the cost of plan is calculated (which is additional).
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    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I didn't think one needed to pay a fee to keep the remaining warranty. May be that applies only to extended warranty that original buyer purchased?

    That said, I find it hard to believe for anybody to buy a used car, spend a few grand in the process and not worry about keeping a warranty if it costs $25-$100. And if there were only a handful of buyers doing that, Chrysler shouldn't worry about it being a bad investment to just keep it intact, instead of taking it away. Smells fishy.
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    tiff_ctiff_c Member Posts: 531
    Oh how the tides have turned. Malibu made the 10Best and beat the Accord in Motortrend. Two of the most highly renowned US publications for autos can't be wrong. Did you even read the review? Let's be honest. Honda has sacrificed performance to compete with the Avalon crowd and now it's showing up in all the reviews. It's just sad ..

    Yes, i read the article as well as watched the video when it was a COTY contender. Tell you what you buy a malibu and I'll buy an accord and we'll see which holds up better and is worth more in 5-6 years.
    Hint it won't be the Malibu. I was a diehard GM/Chevy guy for 20+ years i know what i'm talking about. Yeah I owned a lot of Mopar back in the good old days and a few Fords but late 1970's and up it was all GM.
    The Camaro's literally would fall apart on the dealers lot. Parts would come off in your hand etc...
    Domestics got lazy. Toyota has gotten lazy as well and this past year has really hurt them.
    Honda? We'll see. But out of that lineup I'd get a manual Accord as don't buy slushboxes, ever!
    Don't get me started on the new Caddy's! Could Detroit make an uglier car?! :lemon: :sick: I don't think so, but I won't underestimate their design teams I'm sure they will ugly up something, maybe a design inspiration from a deserted and delapitated building instead of eggcrates. :P
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    This year and next, some of the first Dodge, Jeep, and Chrysler models sold after the transferable warranty program went into effect in July 2002 will undoubtedly be resold, and many of those second buyers will undoubtedly pay the $50 fee to assume the balance of the factory warranty.

    http://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/ww20030203.html
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    chronochrono Member Posts: 149
    Don't get me started on the new Caddy's! Could Detroit make an uglier car?! I don't think so, but I won't underestimate their design teams I'm sure they will ugly up something, maybe a design inspiration from a deserted and delapitated building instead of eggcrates.

    So your saying the new CTS is ugly? Are you kidding me. The new Accord is hideous. Looks like a Ridgeline and Sonata put together. It's just hideous. I think most people agree it's not good looking. Interior components are nice but the center stack looks like an ATM.
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    colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    I haven't put much faith in MT's COY since they named the Chevy Vega COY back in the '70s.
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    MT's COY / SUVOY all of them mean nothing. They do make good bullets to place in the winning company's marketing gun, though.

    IMO, I think the new CTS is quite nice. I really think they have a strong advertising campaign too "when you turn on your car, does it return the favor?" Genius, pure genius.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Oh, I'm thinking monthly rates. D'oh!! :P
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    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    You made that one up, too. :D

    The basic service is included in the "nav" version. So, it will be $28.90/month plus tax.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    No, I know I didn't make up the $47.95 amount. I've heard it somewhere, although it could be some time ago, I promise!!! :D

    You've got me thinking I'm crazy, thanks a lot! :confuse: :P
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    So your saying the new CTS is ugly? Are you kidding me. No,
    it's butt ugly.     The new Accord is hideous. I like it.

    Styling is subjective.
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    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I try not to argue someone else's opinion on styling. A better way to discuss is to suggest why you might disagree with someone else's opinion than show anger and frustration.

    Personally, I have never liked the CTS styling (the new doesn't look much different). It looks bigger than it really is.

    Accord, OTOH, actually looks smaller than it is, and looks good doing so. Is it perfect? Not exactly. It is one thing to not like the style, but calling it hideous points at frustration.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, I can make buying a car separate from buying a brand. If you've seen my profile, you know I don't stick to any one brand. I look at what car meets my requirements best, at the best price, and I don't really care what badge is on the car.

    wrt safety, I do look at the various tests since they provide some some indication of how cars compare in crash safety, and I consider the safety features on the car as well. A combination of active and passive safety.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    So have you considered the new Taurus?
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Not seriously, it's a little bigger than I want/need. Looking for no bigger than a mid-sizer.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    With 18/28 Fuel Economy estimates and 263hp, it pretty much rivals that of any V6 midsizer, and can be had for $20k if you take a model without all the options. If you want a 4-cyl car though, you'll have to look elsewhere.

    I've looked at them for my grandmother, they're really nice cars.
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    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Then I assume you would start with Accord or Legacy. :shades:
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    This is a quote from the comparison.

    "Because of Honda's renown for resale and reliability, three of the four judges noted they'd still buy the Accord over the second-place finisher (Malibu). But, unfortunately for Honda, we can't score based on intangibles."

    I suspect that most buyers will too.

    I noticed they commented on how good the Malibu's interior was. The picture of the Malibu's interior must not do it justice, because it looks unattractive to me.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually I am thinking more in the vein of a Fit (2009) or Versa for "starters", or maybe Elantra Touring or Optima if their IIHS side crash test results are good--I'd prefer something with ESC, and Fit and Versa don't offer it. Neither does Civic LX, which is a good choice otherwise. But I'd like to keep purchase price under $16k. Accord would be over $20k for a basic model with AT, Legacy would be even more expensive and doesn't meet some of my other key criteria.
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Accord would be over $20k for a basic model with AT, Legacy would be even more expensive and doesn't meet some of my other key criteria.

    The Accord sedan is predicted to be at invoice by summer on the prices paid forums, which might put it within shooting distance. Our Legacy wagon was under 20 OTD, IIRC. It definitely has a more aggressive ride than the Accord, and a few mpg penalty for AWD.
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    You still can't equate every hesitant driver as a 100% guaranteed sale when the warranty extends itself.

    Not everyone will buy just because of a warranty extension (as not everyone will avoid just because of a lack thereof).

    My point is that the Camry and Accord are still the best Values out there in the long run. Why pay less to get less. Why pay more to get less? They hit the sweet spots everytime.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If they hit all your sweet spots, that's great. They obviously don't hit everyone's, or there would not be hundreds of thousands of mid-sized sedan buyers turning to alternatives every year. They are fine cars, but not everyone's cup of tea.
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    tiff_ctiff_c Member Posts: 531
    So your saying the new CTS is ugly? Are you kidding me. The new Accord is hideous. Looks like a Ridgeline and Sonata put together. It's just hideous. I think most people agree it's not good looking. Interior components are nice but the center stack looks like an ATM.

    Yes I'm saying the CTS and all the new caddy's are cars that have a look not even their designer could love. The new accord could use some improvement, it's a lot better looking than the new Malibu tho!
    The tail lights look like they came off a Cavalier and that looks better than the new caddy's.
    I guess some people really like ugly bizzaro styled cars like the caddy but I'm not one of them.
    The new Subaru WRX is bland and ugly but the Caddy's are hideous. They should grind them all up and start over. I remember when they first came out with that design, I thought it was the worst looking car I had ever seen. All cars need some improvement except maybe Ferrari, but GM is hopeless until they get someone with talent to style their Caddy's or most of their bland rental car styled vehicles and they really need to get their reliability up as well. Coming in a close second is the front end on all the Dodge products. :P
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Yes I'm saying the CTS and all the new caddy's are cars that have a look not even their designer could love.

    Hmm, I actually like the way it looks, I think it looks edgy and aggressive, and I like the retro-type tail lamps from Cadillacs in the past. If I was looking for something in that price range, it would be on my list, especially with the availability of a 6 speed manual.

    The new accord could use some improvement,

    Because it looks like a 5 year old Saturn S200?

    The new Subaru WRX is bland and ugly

    Okay. But you have to remember it was never a prom queen. The first Imprezas were pretty homely and the 02-03 had the bug-eye. The 04-05 style is the one I liked best but it too was pretty bland and boxy. I think the 02-04s were all visually interesting enough to me that I could own one.
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    patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Check this out: Article Comments - 2007 Ford Mondeo First Drive. What do you think?
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    It sounds a little big to me (and 3600lbs), but other than that I like it. I like the interior layout, the driver information system in the cluster and the lack of clutter. I like the exterior look as well (which is a lot more subjective), I think the front is just edgy enough not to be boring.
    I wonder how much of the 46k USD price is due to exchange rate. Maybe we should stop selling debt to China and see if the dollar comes back.
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    chronochrono Member Posts: 149
    I love the Mondeo. The first time I saw that car was on the last Bond movie. I would definately be a Ford customer if they brought this over. Design wise it kills anything out here in our midsize segment and has performance to boot. Ford are you listening !!!!
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    So we got a flyer at work about the new Malibu..
    It lists
    22/30 for the 2.4l Ecotec 4
    24/32 for the hybrid 2.4l Ecotec 4
    17/26 for the 3.6l V6

    I would think for all the expense of a hybrid drivetrain it would be more than an 8% improvement in FE. At $3/gallon, that 2mpg would take, I dunno, forever to pay for itself. I would hope real world fuel economy would considerably better. Also, I think just being able to start and stop the engine at lights would be a help that wouldn't show up in those tests (idling = 0 mpg).
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, it's what I'd call a very "mild" hybrid system. Not much improvement in FE, but also not nearly the price premium of a full hybrid like the Camry. So payoff may not take as long as you'd think.
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    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    It is acceleration and braking at stop lights that kills fuel economy. Idling has a much smaller impact. In fact, if you are not going to idle for more than 30 seconds, it may not be a good idea to turn off the car or you just might use more fuel. But, I would think hybrids have some form of logic built in to reduce that inefficiency, as they must to ensure safety features are still active when vehicle is stopped (unlike most non-hybrids which may have airbags turned off when the engine is off).
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    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    It is all due to exchange rate and the market. Virtually any car in Europe, also sold here, is almost twice as expensive there.
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    lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    Looks, and sounds good...too bad it isn't here. Maybe if today's companies would try to concentrate on making one or two models instead of 6 or more of them they would actually be much better off. I am almost sure the public would. :)
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    urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Check this out: Article Comments - 2007 Ford Mondeo First Drive. What do you think?

    The mid-size Mondeo seems to be a very fine car indeed and a testament to what FoMoCo is truly capable of building. That being said, I seriously doubt if what America needs is a $47,000 mid-sizer. The market isn't there. That's Bimmer and Benz territory, Caddy, too.
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    tiff_ctiff_c Member Posts: 531
    Hmm, I actually like the way it looks, I think it looks edgy and aggressive, and I like the retro-type tail lamps from Cadillacs in the past. If I was looking for something in that price range, it would be on my list, especially with the availability of a 6 speed manual.

    I can accept that different people like different styles, that's ok by me. :)
    But even my wife when I showed her a pic from Edmunds on the CTS said What is that Ugly car? I hope we aren't going to be buying it!
    She actually said that! :D
    I like the Cadillac of the old days with the big fins. I owned a 1968 Fleetwood, monster party car! You could take off the trunk lid and put a Smart car in the trunk as a spare car!
    Anyway the CTS has a look that is blocky and chunky and that grill is hideous! It's better than when they first came out but overall I can't find anything about it's style to like, but that's just me.
    I do like the new Accord in it's segment and to me it looks better than the Malibu, my gosh why can't GM put a good face on it. I've had Malibu's from like 1968,69, 70 etc... all older used ones when I was younger and those looked ok even with the chrome bumpers. :surprise:

    Okay. But you have to remember it was never a prom queen. The first Imprezas were pretty homely and the 02-03 had the bug-eye. The 04-05 style is the one I liked best but it too was pretty bland and boxy. I think the 02-04s were all visually interesting enough to me that I could own one.

    I currently own a 2002 Rex and it now has over 200K on it! Just waiting another month to either find a way to buy the new STI or go with a Mazdaspeed3. I like the look of the older Subie models. The new WRX leaves me cold and it's clearly lost it's edge. Styling is so subjective.
    I might look at an EVO IX if I can find a new one with no miles on it.
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    That being said, I seriously doubt if what America needs is a $47,000 mid-sizer.

    Agree, but it does start at the equivalent of about $31K based on prices show on the Ford UK site. Perhaps they could sell it as a Lincoln...calling it the redesigned MKZ???
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    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    You folks, and possibly that article, are taking European (possibly UK) prices and applying exchange rates. It doesn't work that way. Cars are more expensive in Europe, yes, almost twice as expensive. For a perspective, we might as well say that Focus can cost over $40K (based on currency exchange) since it can cost GBP20K.

    Mondeo in US market will make for a Fusion competitor (in price). In fact, Fusion may be only slightly bigger than Mondeo. Also note that Ford has a Fusion in the UK, but not the one we do. It is a crossover.
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I can accept that different people like different styles, that's ok by me.

    There might be a target demographic issue with that too, you sound a bit older than me, and I would imagine you are at a different stage in your life and your career (of course, unlike me, you might actually be able to afford the thing :P).

    I've had Malibu's from like 1968,69, 70 etc... all older used ones when I was younger and those looked ok even with the chrome bumpers.

    Yeah, my folks had a 70s Nova when I was a wee lad. I remember the shape of the Malibu and Chevelle front ends. I always thought I would have a early 70s Chevelle with a 327 and a 4 speed in my life, but not yet. I don't mind the new Malibu front end, I don't love it but I don't think it offensive or anything. Do you like the Fusion's chrome grill any better?

    I also noticed the Aura front end and the pre-08 Accord front end look very similar, especially at night on the highway. The silhouette is pretty much the same.

    I currently own a 2002 Rex and it now has over 200K on it! Just waiting another month to either find a way to buy the new STI or go with a Mazdaspeed3.

    I am nervous about that much HP going through the front wheels in the MS3. I think that was the same issue I had with the SRT4, even with the limited slip. I am considering the MS6 if I can get enough selling the Accord.

    I like the look of the older Subie models. The new WRX leaves me cold and it's clearly lost it's edge.

    I concur. It was always a mildly quirky car, I think efforts to go mainstream made it come out bland.
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Good point. Quick check of Mazda UK shows the Mazda6 priced about where the Mondeo is.

    OTOH, the exchage rate is also part of the reason companies like Ford are making money in Europe, while losing here. European manufacturers are also losing money in the US, due to the weak dollar... they can not just increase prices by 50% and expect to sell.

    OTOOH, it may be that bringing the Mondeo here and pricing it where the Fusion is would mean losing even more money for Ford.
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    tiff_ctiff_c Member Posts: 531
    There might be a target demographic issue with that too, you sound a bit older than me, and I would imagine you are at a different stage in your life and your career (of course, unlike me, you might actually be able to afford the thing.

    Oh I can afford a CTS or a BMW 335i anything in and around $40K isn't a problem. it's just that I am opposed to spending money needlessly and ugly cars don't see my wallet. I'm happier to spend $25K over $40K on a depreciating asset. Cars are always losing money and I like to lose as little as possible. I drive a lot so great seats are a big priority and parking isn't an issue for me as i can drive and park almost anything. Smaller cars are of course easier and more fun to drive.
    My wife is very frugal and we drive our cars until they drop and that makes everything cost less.
    I can buy a new STI and I certainly could talk my wife into it but to justify the costs and added insurance do I really want to? I have to drive it and find out. Both the Malibu and any modern Caddy are junk to me. I let GM screw me long enough ditto VW. I don't know if I fit into any demographic tho. :D

    Yeah, my folks had a 70s Nova when I was a wee lad. I remember the shape of the Malibu and Chevelle front ends. I always thought I would have a early 70s Chevelle with a 327 and a 4 speed in my life, but not yet. I don't mind the new Malibu front end, I don't love it but I don't think it offensive or anything. Do you like the Fusion's chrome grill any better?

    I had a 1970 Nova, it was an ok car, I've had a lot of older cheaper cars as did most of my friends growing up. My buddy had a 1969 Chevelle SS with a Twin Turbo setup in the mid 1970's. It wasn't street legal but we still took it out and beat it. Awesome car!
    I had a built Superbee, a Charger like in the Dukes of Hazzard minus the orange paint job, a Roadrunner and a bunch of other cars.
    The Fusion Grill I just looked up. The Malibu would look better with that grill. It looks a bit too much like an air conditioner or chrome venetian blinds for my liking.
    But on that car which has those funky headlights it sticks with a techie look, so it's ok, not ugly, not pininfarina either.

    I am nervous about that much HP going through the front wheels in the MS3. I think that was the same issue I had with the SRT4, even with the limited slip. I am considering the MS6 if I can get enough selling the Accord.

    Yeah, same here but it goes like stink. Why are you giving up your Accord? The new ones look nice, the new Nav system is impressive! I know boring to drive but comfortable seats! The speed3 also has nice seats. Gotta try it and I'll probably buy it although the practical side of me says buy a new Accord! Honda would already have my money if they had made the diesel for this year. I can't hold off another year tho and my wife doesn't want to drive a big car.
    Lots of HP goes through a V6 Accords front end as well, ditto the Camry and even the RAV4. My worry is all that power on snow even with snow tires! :surprise:
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Fusion and Mondeo will merge onto the next generation CD platform (CD4 or EUCD2 - take your pick). Ford is doing the same with the Focus. But that decision was just made this year by Mulally (why this wasn't painfully obvious to Bill Ford and previous CEOs is beyond me) so we won't see the new platforms for 2-4 years.
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Oh I can afford a CTS or a BMW 335i anything in and around $40K isn't a problem. it's just that I am opposed to spending money needlessly and ugly cars don't see my wallet.

    My guess is that younger folks might not feel the same about the styling as you. I think GM is going after younger buyers and is letting the older folks die off or buy Buicks.

    Why are you giving up your Accord? The new ones look nice, the new Nav system is impressive! I know boring to drive but comfortable seats!

    Thats exactly it, its just boring to drive. I want something a little more sporty and alive. I'm not such a big fan of the seats either, they don't do anything for me one way or the other (not great, not bad). The new ones are way too big for me, if I was ready for an Avalon or Maxima, I would think about it - especially since its the only one available with a manual. Accords used to be considered in the "sport compact" category and now they are neither.

    I am thinking of either the MS6 or a Mazda6 w/Touring pkg, but they are hard to find with a manual (and as boring as the Accord is, I would rather have it with a stick than something else with an auto).
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    tiff_ctiff_c Member Posts: 531
    My guess is that younger folks might not feel the same about the styling as you. I think GM is going after younger buyers and is letting the older folks die off or buy Buicks.

    Whoa! i'm not that old! Buick owners are like my Dad who just hit 80 this year!
    Maybe I just prefer classic styling to this new weird and bizzare styling? I really like the look of the Classic cars. I won't buy one, too unreliable and expensive to maintain.
    I think most of this edgy styling is going to look like crap in 10+ years.

    Thats exactly it, its just boring to drive. I want something a little more sporty and alive. I'm not such a big fan of the seats either, they don't do anything for me one way or the other (not great, not bad). The new ones are way too big for me, if I was ready for an Avalon or Maxima, I would think about it - especially since its the only one available with a manual. Accords used to be considered in the "sport compact" category and now they are neither.

    Yeah I hear you. I haven't tried out the new EX-L Accord yet. I will just in case. But fun to drive has a real big meaning to me as well. Most of the cars I like will never make it to the US. :sick:
    Right now the Mazdaspeed3 is at the top of my list although I might reconsider if I could buy a 5spd manual Diesel Accord next month. Then I could drive for work on the cheap and buy something really fun.
    Boring and comfortable is good on my long drives because it's terminally boring no matter what you do, and an involving car would be just as boring as it's just a lot of highway and trees. But if i drove like a normal person it would be different.

    I am thinking of either the MS6 or a Mazda6 w/Touring pkg, but they are hard to find with a manual (and as boring as the Accord is, I would rather have it with a stick than something else with an auto).

    So you really need a big car then? Why not get a Speed3 wagon or sedan? too small?
    2008 is a bad year for buying cars. I might just buy a Scion xD without side airbags and bolt a Recaro seat into it. :surprise:
    Too bad I can't use a Lotus Elise for work. :shades:
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    That is the first time I've "heard" anyone use the term "big car" in reference to the Mazda6. A common complaint (not from me) is that it is too small.

    The Mazda6 barely makes it into the midsize category, by EPA's definition (interior volume). It is just about 1/2 way between the Mazda3 and the Accord (2008) in length, and actually much closer to the 3 than to the Accord in wheelbase and width.
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    bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    tiff_c

    When you are quoting from another post and then answering it, it would be easier for all of us to follow if you would use "quotation marks", or boldface or italicize the quote.

    Distinguishing the quote from your own words will help get your message across.
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    plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    You might consider looking at the RX8, though. It's a pretty typical 2+2 coupe/sedan(technically a sedan shaped to look like a coupe).

    Inexpensive, great handling, and not a jellybean commuter-mobile. I'd rather have one that a CTS or a 3 series, to be honest, since I'm not a fan of excess weight and bling. (The RX8 is about 3000lbs - the CTS is what, almost 4,000?)

    Go drive one - it's a real eye-opener. No, really - go drive one. You'll be impressed.
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    SporinSporin Member Posts: 1,066
    That was our biggest complaint about our Mazda6, just not as much people space as we wanted, barely more then the compact Protege5 we were replacing.

    Our new Accord was precisely what we were looking for in a family car. I hear a lot of complaints from past Accord fans and auto writers about the Accord growing "too big" but it's that extra space that made it a slam dunk for us.
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    tiff_ctiff_c Member Posts: 531
    When you are quoting from another post and then answering it, it would be easier for all of us to follow if you would use "quotation marks", or boldface or italicize the quote.

    I had thought of that but I really don't see anyone else doing it so I didn't either. :blush:
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    tiff_ctiff_c Member Posts: 531
    You might consider looking at the RX8, though. It's a pretty typical 2+2 coupe/sedan(technically a sedan shaped to look like a coupe
    Go drive one - it's a real eye-opener. No, really - go drive one. You'll be impressed.

    I actually did drive one and the engine is very sweet. Nice car but when i set the seat for myself to drive and sat behind in the back I was cramped and i'm only 5'7" tall :confuse:
    Now that's a bit unusual since i'm not a long legged guy. Great car except for that and the abysmal fuel economy and no spare tire although I guess one is an option.
    Great looking and handling car but the economy needs to be up a bit I drive a lot and that would kill me in fuel costs.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I had thought of that but I really don't see anyone else doing it so I didn't either.

    Typically, when other people insert snippets of posts they reply to, they will make those snippets bold. Otherwise, they don't use the emboldened statements at all. Without making them bold, it's hard to differentiate your posted comment from theirs.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Or italics (which I and some others use). Or something to differentiate between a quote and a new post. Otherwise it can get real :confuse: ing.
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