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The current trend now is exactly the opposite: popular cars now (SUV and trucks) are more powerful, heavy and bulky gas hogs. But all of it will change when gas will be more expensive.
Steve, Host
350+ HP, yet it Loafs along at about 1500 RPMs at 70 mph+. (5th gear is OD;6th gear is Way OD).
Not suggesting a car like this is an econo car, but it's our best mpg in our garage. One Must keep their foot out of it, however, or the mpg falls like a rock.
I enjoy reading the current threads of their CR-V mpg, though I wonder if y'all live/drive on billard table flat roads and never get above 60 mph?! The Best I've seen on our '03 is 25ish; usually 21-23, on Trips, and pretty crummy around town. That and the smallish tank, make for freq pit stops on trips, though my back and legs are ready by then from the less than generous sitting space.
BR,md
Didn't GM have some sort of exchange with Honda, which is how they got 50,000 3.5l V6 engines for the Vue?
-juice
European diesels are efficient, high MPG, and clean. This is the main reason that the Europeans aren't that impressed by Hybrids; their diesels provide similar MPG without the batteries & complications.
However the US diesel fuel won't support those capabilities over here.
At the same time, they began development of a diesel for the euro Accord (TSX here in NA) and now the CR-V. It's a 2.2L block that puts out impressive torque numbers, though the horsepower rating is only average compared with other engines in the same class. Kinda the reverse of what you'd expect from Honda. It's also supposed to be very smooth for a diesel.
http://irishcar.com/honaccorddslfvbbbb.htm
That being the case, new diesels are coming into the market already. MB just reintroduced the E class, VW is expanding the TDI to the Passat, and IIRC Jeep is putting one in the Liberty.
Check out the last C&D, IIRC, some diesels like the one in the E Class are faster and more efficient, in that Benz it costs $1100 less to boot.
The quality of US diesel has limited what they can offer up to this point, but hopefully that'll change soon.
-juice
Speaking of which - this month's hasn't arrived yet.
Poor Saddam:-).
After oil crisis of the 70's was over, price of crude went down but not price at the pump.
I afraid that problem with diesel is not technical or ecological. Problem might be with the 'price' of diesel fuel. Price of diesel fuel was supposed to be like about 1/2-3/4 of gasoline
(until very recent time), so is the heating oil, which is not much different (only color of it) . Oil companies might not be able to justify price of diesel same as gasoline. Then they would loose lots of money if people would switch to diesel? NO WAY!
Or they might come up with some kinda scheme like ALL fuel: diesel, regular, 93 or 95 - same price $5 a gallon. :-).
Problem is: price at the pump does not reflect price of crude or cost of production. There is NO free market here. This is a mafia-like deal and feds take chunk of it in form of taxes.
It's just that the only vehicles able to use it are those over 6000 lbs (can you say "Ford Excursion"?) and those 1970s-1980's Mercedes Benz I see around town.
I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theories about fuel prices. I think the prices are being driven up by lack of refining capacity (especially here in California) coupled with the Middle East oil cartel keeping the price at what is (for them) a profitable level. But here in the US we can elect representatives to change policies - if we want.
And of course the environmentalists would love to have gas at $5 per gallon - so they protest any attempt to increase supply, as evidenced by the lawsuits filed to see how the current White House arrived at energy policies that emphasize increase in supply of energy. Well, duh. They arrived at them by determining what would be the quickest way to increase the available energy - remember the California energy crisis of 2000? What we need in this country is more green technology, but that takes time to develop. Meanwhile, the country has to keep mobile and warm in the winter. It is the job of the President to ensure that the public has the resources it needs.
Economics will drive the public to green energy, but in the public's own time, not the time of any special interest group, however noble it's purposes. Every gallon of gas used is just that much closer to alternative fuels. And auto emissions are getting cleaner all the time.
Just my opinion, of course...
You make my point well. Here in America there is considerable resistance to goverment taxation of transportation, and the people have a lot of power. Proposition 13, for example, would never have been even proposed in Eurpoe, much less enacted. Our representative democracy has kept us from much of the Government opression (despite what the conspiracy theorists may believe).
Just wish we could get the diesels in California...
Also, my experience is Hondas engines get increasingly better gas mileage up through about 10K miles.
regards,
kyfdx
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-juice
For example (and this is only one example): back when most other countries were expanding or rebuilding their industrial base and commercial infrastructure, they added mass transit systems. At about the same time (mid century), the US opted to expand and develop our highways. This gave the auto industry a big financial boost, but it also pushed us toward a greater dependence on passenger cars. Let's face it. Passenger cars are not as efficient.
So, when you compare the UK or other markets with North America you have to take into account that cars are not the only transportation option. They have a different value to the people in those markets.
However, I will never buy a GM product because of their dispicable tactics: They went around the country and bought out every mass transit company they could find, and replaced the rail systems with busses. It happened here in LA in the late 40's. That was a watershed time because the rail lines here were in need of replacement. So it was either replace the rails or go to busses (built by GM, of course). Before the war we had a very efficient rail system that would get you just about anywhere, run very cheaply on electric cars. Similarly, Philadelphia had rail lines down every other street, providing excellent service. Then GM arrived. Oh yeah, and GM insisted that the busses would be just as clean as the electric systems.
-juice
But my point was that North America has developed more of a "car culture" and infrastructure than other nations. Therefore, their value of a car is different than ours. Even Canada has a somewhat different car market than we do in the US.
So, when we discuss the merits of a vehicle like the diesel CR-V, we have to take into account that it will be graded on a different curve than here in the US. For many reasons, not just the price of fuel.
Let's see how the Liberty diesel sells. If there is a demand maybe Honda will consider offering the CR-V diesel.
Who here would not want an SUV that would consistently return 30mpg? With a range of 450 miles? Reasonably powered, too. I sure would.
-juice
Thus the CR-V is cost competitive, even though it is built in high manufacturing cost areas like England and Japan.
Thanks GM. ; (
(Of course, they do alot more economic good for my region than yours.)
The big thing would be availability of the motors themselves.
DC and VW have the philosophy that you can modify your car to fit your needs, with factory options. Honda builds 'em one way (in each trim level) and lets people decide if that is what they want. It reduces costs tremendously.
They do change engines on foreign CR-Vs, which have a 2.0L engine on the 2nd Gen.
I don't know - they seem to do a pretty good job figuring out how many I4's and V6's they need for the Accord!!
Yes I agree - Honda keeps costs down by limiting models. OTOH, they've added manufacturing complexity in the LX and EX Accords without major price increase. IMHO, If they are going to do a diesel for Europe they can do it for the US without much more cost.
Any how, I think a hybrid is more likely.
-juice
There have been exceptions like the RSX, but that one just uses another Civic engine. The last TL and CL Type S cars had an engine option, but those were high profit deals and it looks like even those have been taken away.
Relative to Honda's market share, the CR-V's sales volume is getting to the point where it may earn more options. But I doubt the option would be diesel. More likely the LX model will soldier on with the 160 hp 2.4, while the EX (or SE) gets a more potent version. The diesel would be too small a percentage to make it worth the effort.
-juice
Interesting, anybody is curious why the price of gas and diesel is the same NOW? For me it's... like selling whiskey and wine at the same price (per volume). Does not make sense.
It might only justified if they add a hefty tax on both (per volume), or... we do NOT have "free market" here .
Of course, it could be that with the introduction of automobile diesels, demand increased while production did not increase, which is the classic cause of a price increase.
Isn't the gas actually closer to you than to those of us in the East????
It's trending upward, though, and summer isn't here yet. Yikes!
-juice
By far the highest price was in Ormond Beach, FL - $1.77 for 87 octane. I presume because it was trailer uhmmm bike week the prices spiked a bit.
Here in MA, we use the same gas as CA I believe - it's about $1.71 for 87 and add $0.10 per grade jump.
http://www.chevron.com/learning_center/refinery/
To make diesel is therefore cheaper, but demand wise, if they don't make more, and then introduce more diesels, the demand and price will rise.
Hey now! Don't be giving us weasels a bad name.
I'm paying about $1.68 for gas here in southern MA. I expect the price will get up around $2 this summer. That might help me convince Mrs. Varmint to trade the TL in for a hybrid Accord when they become available.
So the diesel oil is, in fact, a different weight and a byproduct of making gasoline. No?
BTW, I saw that the NHTSB is being sued for not publicizing recalls to all owners. It appears they have been letting the car companies notify only certain regions insted of all owners.