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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    When I was car shopping in January, I looked very hard at the Jetta and Pasat, and my original preference was for the Jetta.

    However, the closest SEL Jetta was over 600 miles from here (according to the dealer), and quite frankly, the higher line options were limited on the Jetta. I the looked at the Passat, but it listed 3-4 grand higher than the loaded Altima that I finally purchased, and had significantly less options, along with better mileage

    Maybe that explains why so few Passats are out and about, although I really liked the car a lot..
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    For those interested in Hyundai..

    There was a show on the National Geographic Channel a couple of days ago on the Hyundai plant in Alabama. It also had a segment on air-bag manufacturing.

    I feel sure it will be replayed 2 or 3 more time over the next couple of weeks....
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    VW Passat does not sell in huge volumes, so it takes a lot longer before you see many on the road. Feb Passat sales in US were 2800 sedans and 500 wagons, cars like Altima, Camry, Accord sell at many times that rate.

    The same will be true of the new Mazda6, when it comes out (5500 were sold in Feb this number may go up, but is not going to suddenly become a camryesque 15,000).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    15,000 is "Sonataesque." ;) Camryesque is more like 35-40k per month--more than 10 times the Passat.

    For folks looking for something less commonly seen in this class, maybe the Passat is it. Or Galant. Both are pretty low volume.

    I see though that even though the Passat sells in very low numbers and is on the cusp of this class in terms of price, it has replaced the Optima on the links on the right. Farewell, Optima--we hardly knew ye. :cry:
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Yeah, that was bad math...somehow I was thinking 400K per year would be 15-20K per month...I think I was using a 24 month year or something. :)

    I'd guess the entire 6 year run of the current Mazda6, might about equal about 1 year of Camrys...for the Passat (or Galant) it would take a decade or more.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    If you or others care to discuss the Optima, it may return, who knows! :)
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    The Sonata sold just over 8,000 units last month. The Sonata is not a 15,000/mo car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Now that you mention it, the Optima is receiving a mid-generation tweak for 2009 MY:

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/.eea54a5?@@

    So the I4 powertrain is on par with what the Sonata and most other mid-sizers offer in their four-banger mid-sizers, but the V6 remains a weakling in this group--just 15 hp more than the I4. And ABS (and ESC) remains optional. Not up to snuff in this class. I don't think there's any other car in the class that doesn't have ABS standard, and several offer ESC standard either across the board or on some trims.

    At least there's an SX variant for 2009 with a sport-tuned suspension--sounds kinda like the 2009 Sonata SE idea.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It has sold at the 15k/month level and more in the past. For example, in December 2007 Hyundai sold nearly 25,000 Sonatas. February was not a great month for automakers, including Hyundai. Let's see how many Sonatas are sold in March. ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Ever since I read a Motor Trend article comparing Passat, Azera, and Avalon, it's just been in my head that those were the competitors, that's why I said that. It doesn't matter where its discussed to me, I don't have a horse in the VW race! :)
  • riswami1riswami1 Member Posts: 33
    I'm of the opinion that the Passat and the Jetta are both overpriced. I've owned a few VWs over the years and they are expensive cars to maintain. To each his own; I know I'll never buy a VW again. I bought a Mazda6 in November. VWs were not on my shopping list. Neither was the Camry or the Accord. I did consider the Optima and the Sonata. However the driving dynamics of the 6 and the value convinced me that the 6 was the right move for me.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Yes, I've told my wife a few times that my Mazda6 cost us $3000 less than her Jetta :) . Her Jetta does have a few features, I would like to have in my 6...stability control, automatic locks, better windshield wash misting, and, most importantly, extendable sun visors.

    OTOH, her steering wheel does not telescope out enough to suit me plus mine is leather covered and has audio controls on it. I also have a power seat and alloys.

    Not sure about being much more expensive to maintain, the only difference I have noted, so far, is the Jetta required a brake fluid change at 24 months. The Mazda6 does not specify any brake fluid changes on their schedule. The Jetta does require synthetic oil, but changing once per year for $55 will actually cost me less than changing the Mazda6 the required three times per year at $20-25.

    Now on the mid-size Passat, with turbo, you might have to change the synthetic oil every 6 months or 5000 miles...so that would cost a bit more.
  • riswami1riswami1 Member Posts: 33
    When I referred to cost to maintain I meant the price of replacement parts for VWs. I found the items that you had to buy from a dealer to be extremely expensive. Most European makes require more maintenance. I will be changing the brake fluid every two years on my 6. In my opinion that is money well spent.

    Go over to the board for the Passat for Prices paid. You will see a post for excessive cost to maintain and one person is complaining about an engine problem. I am aware that the Mazda6 board has a few engine problems.

    My opinion on the Jetta is it compares to a Corolla and a Mazda3. I realize it was bigger than both of those cars; not sure how the new Corolla stacks up to a Jetta.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The Mazda6 does not specify any brake fluid changes on their schedule.

    Brake fluid should be changed every few years in any car. Brake fluid absorbs moisture, and will eventually kill the master cylinder seals, if not some other brake components besides. I'm sure the brake fluid in the Mazda 6 is no different from other brake fluids.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Article on 2008 Accord, both 2.4 and 3.5 models

    To those thinking the non-VCM V6 is a lot torquier, it'll explain why.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Interesting article. My comment: Ipod is "exclusive" because it is more expensive and "does it better". One could successfully argue there are many other ways to play music out of a portable device costing much less, but no one does it as good as the Ipod. I totally agree with the analogy about the Accord.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Up until fairly recently, I never heard of changing brake fluid. It has never appeared in any maintenance schedule for any car I have owned until the Jetta. It was fairly expensive too, about $90...next time I'll shop around for a better price.

    We have an 11 year old, 110,000 mile windstar and have never changed brake fluid...other than whatever got changed during two brake jobs. Have had other cars that were 12-14 years old and never changed brake fluid (some were bought used, so it is an unlikely possibility that a previous owner replaced fluid at some point). We have never had a need for any brake work on any of our cars, other than pads, rotors, and shoes. So I really wonder how much truth there is to this idea that brake fluid must be changed.

    Funny thing on the Mazda6, the schedules for the US, which also covers Canada and Puerto Rico, does not specify brake fluid changes but the schedule for Mexico does specify it every 2 years or 40K km. I planning to ask about this difference when I am at the dealer some time in the next year.

    What about the other mid-sizes that are the topic here? Do the manufacturers specify brake fluid changes in the maintenance schedule?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You don't have to change it, but it is a fact that brake fluid is hygroscopic and absorbs water over time. Water lowers the boiling point of brake fluid significantly and can lead to a temporary loss of brakes under high heat conditions. Europe requires brake fluid inspections and regular changes. No idea why they don't do that in the U.S.

    A case in point: A child was killed in an accident when the five-year old minivan with 79,000 miles on it his parents were driving suffered loss of pedal and crashed while the family was driving in the mountains of Washington state. Fluid boil was blamed as the cause of the accident.

    http://www.aa1car.com/library/bfluid.htm
  • riswami1riswami1 Member Posts: 33
    I have been changing brake fluid for years. With the cost of brake componets it makes sense to change every couple years; never mind that the safety aspect should be your main reason for performing this maintenance.

    There are many recurring maintenance items not mentioned in the owners manual. The manufacters do this to keep the projected maintenance cost down.
  • motoguy128motoguy128 Member Posts: 146
    The inital fill of brake fluid filled in a new car generally occurs at the factory under extremely clean and dry conditons with fresh fluid. The system is completely sealed at that point. Because of this, new cars can go 5 years or about 100,000 miles initially, but after it's been changed once at a shop, which is less than ideal conditions, it should thereafter be regularly changes aevery 2 years or about 30,000 miles.

    On my motorcycle, there are 2 independant brake circuits for the calipers and ABS control module.. The "wheel" circuit needs changing every 2 years. The circuit in the ABS module gets changes every 3 years.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    What about the other mid-sizes that are the topic here? Do the manufacturers specify brake fluid changes in the maintenance schedule?

    The 03 Accord owner's manual states to change the brake fluid every 3 years, regardless of miles. You would be surprised to see how dirty the fluid was, despite having never opened the cover on the master cylinder.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    I haven't seen the navigation system in the Accord in use, so I decided to go to another Honda dealer to see if I liked it enough to justify the cost of upgrading to an EX-L Nav model when I otherwise would probably be satisfied with an LX-P. I also wanted to drive one again so I could refresh my memory on whether I not I could live with the Accord's level of highway road noise for several years.

    The salesman couldn't find any 4 cylinders with nav in the main lot so he went to the back lot and found a clearly un-PDI'd gold EX-L with Navi after over 30 minutes.
    The car was filthy and I was surprised he didn't bother to even clean the heavy layer of dust off the windshield in all that time he was gone before bringing the car around.
    He knew nothing about the nav system, so I tried to play around with it to see what I could figure out without aid of the owners manual. I was able to get a few voice commands to work because I knew some phrases based on reading online message boards. It was a bit too complicated an unintuitive though. Most people will either need to read the manual or spend a lot of time in trial and error to even input an address.

    On the test drive, he directed me to drive about 1.25 miles in a loop of 4 right turns back to the dealership. When he had me make the first turn away from the freeway, I was silently thinking: "You moron! This is not an acceptable test drive at all. Now I'm going to go to another dealer and get a real test drive to see how it feels on the highway and never come back here again."
    2 minutes later, we were back at the dealership and I stepped out and told him "I'm going to look at other cars, good-bye."

    However, even in that few minutes I was able determine that the car had rattles. There was a rattle/squeak coming from the navi disc drive area below the HVAC controls and another coming from somewhere around either the passenger door or passenger seat. I have heard rattles in another EX-L, so I give up on it now. 2 out of 2. I may still try an LX-P at another dealership to see if the simpler interior without sunroof and the extra plastic console pieces is less rattle-prone.

    When I drove down the street I noticed a Chevy dealer and decided to take another look at the Malibu. The salesman who met me was stereotypical with a fake tan, hair gelled back, and he smelled like a combination of cigarettes and cologne. He seemed to be an old-school high-pressure type of salesman.

    I sat in a Malibu 1LT 4 cylinder and immediately noticed it was less roomy. I fit in the back seat, but it was tight and my knees were in the seatback cutout designed for that purpose. It seemed to have about the same headroom without the moonroof as the Accord had with a moonroof. It was almost like a 4-door coupe because some space was sacrificed for styling (low-ish roofline).
    The Malibu wasn't as comfortable to sit in the back seat because there was no room to stretch out. Then I drove it. We went on about a 15 minute drive out to the freeway then down a few exits before coming back on surface streets,
    The Malibu just felt so much smoother and quieter without wallowing around like a Buick or Camry and I could tell it would be nicer to drive on a daily basis than the Accord. No rattles at all.
    If I needed to carry tall people in the back everyday, I would lean towards the Accord so they could stretch out and experience the comfort of the flip down center armrest, but I don't need to do that, so now I'm leaning towards the Malibu.
    I know the Accord is likely to have much better resale value when I sell it in 5 or 6 years, but I need to live with it for 5 or 6 years first, so that makes it a harder sell.

    There is also the Camry to consider which will have close to the same room and resale value of the Accord with a smooth and quiet ride, but from what I remember of driving a Camry, the Malibu was still nicer to drive beause it handles better than the Camry, yet is just as quiet.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Test drive a Sonata also. You may love it or you may hate it. But, try it in your comparisons.

    Regarding the Nav., consider a top level portable unit, no mater what make car you end up buying. (for example, you should be able to get a really nice Garmin w/ bluetooth for well under $500. ) Nice to be able to change it from car to car, take on trips or a local rental car.
  • karsickkarsick Member Posts: 312
    .... that brings up a question for me (since I'm not much of a tech buyer):

    What exactly is the reason for buying a car with a built-in nav unit, when I can buy a portable unit (Tom Tom / Garmin)???

    With advancing technology, I'd bet that in 5 years time, any built-in unit will seem as modern as a built-in 8-track cassette player on a 1973 Oldsmobile.

    I'd rather just buy a more basic car, and buy the latest portable nav system throughout the car's life.

    What am I missing :confuse: ?
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    A portable nav is normally better, but I wanted to at least look at the integrated factory nav with bluetooth just to see if I thought it was so incredible that I had to have it. It is a nice luxury to have it built in so there are no wires from a portable unit and you don't have to deal with hiding it from theft.
    Sometimes people don't get it, see it later, and are then posting "I just rode in a car with factory nav and now wish I had the got the nav. How can I get it retrofitted in my car now?"
    Now, I have seen it and know I wouldn't have any regrets skipping it.

    The Malibu comes with a year of OnStar TurnByTurn navigation, that will likely have eNav on 2009 models which allows you to get your destinations by looking them up on MapQuest and e-mailing them to the car instead of always talking to a live operator after you get into the car. If I buy the Malibu, I may be able to get by with it TurnByTurn for a year and then I can buy the then latest portable GPS the year after that if I don't think renewing OnStar Directions and Connections package is worth $299 per year (or $100 extra if I was going to keep the basic "Safe and Sound" package for $199 when the trial expires.
  • karpediemkarpediem Member Posts: 46
    A couple reasons to go with a built-in nav unit is they are less likely to be stolen, and they usually go well with the dash. Also, a 5 year old built-in unit and a 5 year old portable unit are still both 5 years old. It's not like you can trade in the portable unit a get a new one free. Both nav units can be updated. It is nicer to be able to transfer the portable one from car to car, but most the time you have to suction cup it to your winshield and I personally don't like the look of that, and you have to remember to remove it or else it probably won't be there when you get back to your car.

    Hopefully more car makers will come out with something like this...which is currently available for Nissan Xterras and Frontiers.......gives the portable GPS a fighting chance not to get stolen and a cool docking station.
    image
    image
    image
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    The difference about updating the factory nav is that the map updates are very expensive. $200 for new DVD map isn't unusual and you can never update the basic functionality and interface, only the map. So 5 years from now, it will look very old and will lack the latest functionality.
    A new map for a portable unit is more like $75 and you will be able to buy an entire new GPS with newer interface periodically for about the price of just the DVD for the factory nav. Some may just buy a newer generation portable every other year (or even every year) instead of buying map updates. In 5 years, you will have a much nicer portable that will do many things the 5 year old factory nav cannot.
    There is also the up front cost of the factory nav. Not only is the option cost often $2000, it also requires upgrading to a top of the line trim level and/or getting mandatory options packages that will make the cost of the upgrade several thousand dollars for those who only wanted the nav and not everything else you need to get before factory nav is available.

    You do not have to mount a portable on the windshield. In at least a couple states it's illegal. There are other mounts like the Nav-Mat that you can put on the dash and sometimes they can fit in the lower console or in a cupholder with or without the mount.
    image
    The only disadvantage is when you use the portable, you will have to take 5 seconds to pick it up and move it to the glove compartment or other storage compartment when you park. If you do that, then there is no sign of it and no theft risk. However, if you need to use your GPS every day and get in and out of your car several times a day, that might become a hassle. That's not my situation, so pulling it out a few times a week won't be a big deal.
    If more cars had places to mount and store a portable GPS like in those photos, then that would solve the biggest inconvenience.
  • karsickkarsick Member Posts: 312
    Thanks for the info, guys.

    Much of it confirms what I presumed (people wanting an "integrated look")

    As far as theft, I assume I would rarely need to use a nav, so I'd only pull it out when absolutely necessary, so hiding it repeatedly isn't a big issue.

    FWIW- I spend my workweek on the road visiting businesses all over western Washington (many of which I've never been to before). If I really get stumped, I just pull out my old-tech Thomas guide.

    It's really hard to imagine many people spending more time than I do searching for new addresses.

    Admittedly, I'd like to have a nav system in a rental car when I'm in another state or country, but for my own vehicles, I can find much better spots to park my cash.

    Just my $.02 :confuse:
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    The hiding the portable nav from theft issue is one reason I will want a car with factory bluetooth. The 2009 Malibu will be available with factory bluetooth except on the very lowest trim level (LS).
    If I had to rely on the portable GPS's portable bluetooth speakerphone, that would mean I would have to pull the GPS out all the time so it would be ready to receive calls even when I didn't need any map routing.
    With factory bluetooth, I will be able to keep the portable stored away except for when I need to use it.
    With the Accord, you have to either upgrade to the EX-L with nav to get bluetooth or have the dealer install the accessory bluetooth for about $700 that has less functionality (no steering wheel controls or stereo integration and caller-id).
    So, factory bluetooth is much more important to me than factory navigation.
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    The hiding the portable nav from theft issue is one reason I will want a car with factory bluetooth.

    When I bought my Sebring last September it came with a MyGIG multimedia system that included GPS nav. I probably wouldn't have ordered it from the factory with MyGIG but it came with a car that had exactly everything else I wanted.

    Harman Becker is the actual manufacturer of the unit and they've already released two application software updates. These are free to download. Gracenotes database updates for music files are also free. Factory Bluetooth, hands-free voice commands with a 1,000 word vocabulary, a 30 GB HDD for storing music and pics, a turn-by-turn GPS nav with real-time traffic routing, Sirius satellite, DVD movies and more.

    I recently added a backup camera that I can view even if I'm driving 70 mph down the highway. That's interesting. It also turns on automatically whenever I shift into reverse, even if the MyGIG is off. Part of the camera addition now lets someone watch a DVD movie while in motion. Not that I'd watch a movie while driving - it's a passenger option. ;)

    MyGIG Multimedia System
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    >backup camera that I can view even if I'm driving 70 mph down the highway. That's interesting. It turns on automatically whenever I shift into reverse,

    At first I had a picture of your shifting into reverse at 70 mph to turn on the camera! :confuse:

    What kind of process do you go through to download the updates for the system? This sounds like what's in a Town and Country a friend is thinking of buying and he's not very techcapable. Send email if you feel this is going off topic.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    At first I had a picture of your shifting into reverse at 70 mph to turn on the camera!

    :D That did sound a bit misleading. I corrected the wording. You just have to be in FM mode and press the on/off button twice to turn it on whenever you want. It's part of an aftermarket kit called MyGIG Lockpick.

    Here's a site for MyGIG updates: Unofficial MyGIG Information Site

    To update the application software or Gracenotes you download the file to your PC. It can be as large as 370 MB or more. You then have to burn it to a DVD. The update installs automatically when you insert the DVD and takes around 15-20 minutes. Detailed instructions are on the website.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    I may look at the 2009 Sonata, but since I would prefer factory installed bluetooth, it will put it lower on the list.
    So far, the likelihood is:

    2009 Malibu LT/LTZ 4 cylinder
    2009 Camry LE with VSC and JBL (JBL required for factory bluetooth)
    2009 Camry SE or XLE with VSC and JBL (less likely because no folding rear seat)
    2008/2009 Camry Hybrid with JBL. (less likely because I would prefer a full sized trunk).
    2008 Accord LX-P (less likely, because I would prefer something quieter and with integrated bluetooth)
    2009 Sonata 4 cylinder Limited or GLS (less likely because no fully integrated bluetooth and Hyundai resale might be worse than even the Malibu). I might still buy it for the right price.
    2009 Malibu Hybrid (less likely because the hybrid adds only a couple MPG and makes the trunk pass through a bit smaller, though much less of a problem than the Camry Hybrid's trunk). Why bother with it for 2 MPG?

    Not really considering any other sedans like Altima, Sebring, Galant, Legacy, Fusion etc because they have deal breaker issues that I will not compromise on, so I won't even bother to test drive them.

    The 2010 Fusion that comes out in January 2009 may be OK, but I may not wait that long before making a purchase.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Not really considering any other sedans like Altima, Sebring, Galant, Legacy, Fusion etc because they have deal breaker issues that I will not compromise on, so I won't even bother to test drive them.


    Not trying to change your mind, but I was wondering what your issues are with these vehicles...just curious, I guess...
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    I must have stability control, and decent gas mileage and I prefer to have factory bluetooth and at least average cargo carrying ability.
    The regular 4 cylinder Altima isn't available with VSC, and the hybrid has a tiny trunk that doesn't even have a pass-through for long objects. At least the Camry Hybrid has a fold down rear seat with a small opening to allow you to car long objects that fit through the opening and you can stack more stuff on the fold down rear seats without damaging the cushions.
    Several of the cars like the Fusion and Galant don't have VSC and the Galant is too ugly anyway. I don't like the way the Sebring/Stratus looks inside or out and reviews are mostly bad and resale will probably be worse than even a Hyundai Sonata. I don't need all wheel drive especially with a 4-speed automatic and so-so gas mileage of the Legacy that's worse than a V6 in some other cars.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Given your stated requirements, I'm a little surprised the Sonata isn't higher on your list: standard ESC, excellent fuel economy for its class, quiet ride, and one of the biggest trunks (and interiors) in its class with a 60/40 rear seat. Having that factory Bluetooth vs. a dealer-installed unit must be very important to you?
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    Maybe I might put the Sonata one level higher above the Accord LX-P because the Honda road noise is a big turn off and I'm pretty sure the Sonata will be quieter even if not as quiet as the Camry and Malibu. The high Honda resale and expected top reliability is mostly what's keeping the Accord off the bottom.

    I haven't test driven a 2009 4 cylinder Sonata yet, but it doesn't have full-integrated factory bluetooth and I will have to drive it to see how it compares to the others.
    I can "live with" the dealer-installed bluetooth, so it's still on the list, but it's lower down the list since both the Camry and Malibu have all the features I want.
    I won't use the back seat that often, so the advantage of a bigger back seat over the Malibu isn't a big plus and the Camry is quite roomy in the back, so the Sonata has no advantage over the Camry in that item. If I didn't have to order and wait 8 weeks to get an LE with VSC and JBL and it drove and handled as nicely as the Malibu, I would just get the Camry without hesitating or looking at anything else.
    I might have to order the Malibu to get the exact combination of features I want in a specific color, but there is probably at least a 50% chance they will be able to locate it in stock from another dealer.

    To get the Sonata, I will have to like it at least as much as the Camry and pay much less so the net after resale is still in it's favor.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    MyGig sounds a lot like Ford's SYNC. I guess one of the big differences is it costs about 3x as much.
    I still don't get the idea of having a hard drive in a car. I couldn't believe how long it took to copy a CD to the drive. You also couldn't listen to the CD or any audio source while it was doing it.
    One of the issues with all the systems is that they are very dependent on the meta-data associated with the audio file. When my friend put a burned CD, gracenotes couldn't find the songs.
    I was also very surprised at the number of features that are locked out while driving in MyGig (and if you look at my posts on the cell phone debate, I am pretty conservative). I can understand blocking streaming video or an address entry task, but it wouldn't let me select playlists. I also don't really care for the way it organizes music.
    SYNC doesn't organize anything it just uses the structure that is on your personal device (read: iPod).
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I have found that the usability of the built in integrated units is better. Most of the current OEM nav systems have relatively large screens that offer much larger on screen controls. Most of the newer ones offer voice activation and recognition as well as having voice prompts to the driver for when to turn, etc. The coolest of the OEM systems have real time traffic and some can re-route based on that information.
    Having a Garmin with a 3-4" display is helpful while traveling, but if you rely on a nav system a lot, I would think it would be worth the bucks for a simpler, easier to use interface.
    There are some other differences too, like the warranty on the hand held units is like a year, and the one built in is 3-10 years depending on the manufacturer. There are also federal requirements that apply to the built in systems (and some other industry guidelines) that the hand-helds don't need to worry about (well, at least until they start getting sued).
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    I think the old Accord's touch screen nav may have been much easier to use, but the new 2008 Accord's nav with the the knob you twist and select menus and sub menus is pretty complicated. You have to study the manual to use. It has no traffic either.
    I bought a portable Garmin with traffic for less than $400 last fall and it was very simple to use. I could get a nicer unit for the same price this year.

    After seeing 2008 Accord's nav in action it wasn't worth the premium of jumping from an LX-P to an EX-L to get that system. That is several thousand dollars. Not worth that many bucks when you didn't want the EX-L trim's other extras and I would lose access to traffic service with it anyway. Then I was turned off by the EX-Ls many rattles and won't consider it with or without nav.

    One thing I was surprised to hear is that many of automobile systems that do have traffic only "show" you the traffic, they don't route around it automatically like the Garmin does. A new generation Acura nav is offering that as a new feature and I couldn't believe their current system wasn't doing that all along.

    I have never heard of any car that has a warranty on nav or even an extended warranty on it for 10 years. Not that you would want to be still using a 10-year old nav system anyway. It will be a very antiquated system in 10 years even if the manufacturer would still sell you updated maps for it after that period.
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    You might also consider the Saturn Aura. Its a kissing cousin to the Malibu. I just bought an Aura XE with the low tech 3.5V6 to use for my business travel. It offers good fuel economy and still makes 224 HP.
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    I couldn't believe how long it took to copy a CD to the drive.

    It takes around 10 minutes to copy an entire CD to the HD. I've been putting all my music CDs on the drive so I won't have to bother with carrying them around. The initial setup takes a bit of effort but then I have everything available in one place.

    When my friend put a burned CD, gracenotes couldn't find the songs.

    The Gracenote database is constantly being updated. Updates can be downloaded for free and burned to a DVD to update the MyGIG database. The dealer might charge to do this or I've heard Harman Becker (the MyGIG manufacturer) will mail out an update disc on request. I'm not sure if they charge for that.

    I can understand blocking streaming video or an address entry task, but it wouldn't let me select playlists. I also don't really care for the way it organizes music.

    Hmm...I don't have any trouble selecting albums from my playlist as I'm driving along. The only thing related to the playlist that it won't let me do while driving is to rename one. It has something to do with the keyboard screen being disabled while in motion. The same block also disables inputting street names while driving.

    I've gotten around that by installing a plug-in module called a MyGIG Lockpick. Like the name implies, it unlocks features that would normally only be accessible when in park. When it blocks me from renaming a playlist after I've copied a CD while driving I just toggle the on/off button twice and the Lockpick overrides any blocks.

    I can understand why it would block this feature. I'm surprised at how difficult it is to drive in a straight line while trying to type something on that screen. If a cop saw me I'd probably get pulled over, thinking I was drunk. :D I never use the keyboard when any other traffic is anywhere near me.

    The reason I don't think the playlist select option is blocked by default while in motion is that I never have to toggle the on/off button to select an album. Also, the playlists are arranged in alphabetical order. I group things together by artist. For instance, I'll name any Eagles CDs "Eagles Long Road Home" or "Eagles Greatest Hits", etc. You said something about not liking the way it organizes music.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I bought a portable Garmin with traffic for less than $400 last fall and it was very simple to use. I could get a nicer unit for the same price this year.

    Verzion just announced VZNAV v4 with traffic and a ton of other enhancements for the same $9.99/mo. And I don't have to worry about updating my maps. :surprise
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    I tried the cell phone nav systems and it had several problems. You have to have an unlimited data plan, so add the cost is the data plan plus the $9.99 per month. It cannot be used when you are out of the cell coverage area because the maps are streamed wirelessly, and it would drop the connection to the navigation service whenever you had to make or receive a call. Even though they keep the data on their servers, they are very slow to update their points of interest database. I still had to lookup many stores and restaurants by other methods.
    Way too clunky.
  • motoguy128motoguy128 Member Posts: 146
    Built in navigaton isn't a great idea. In 6-10 years it will be obsolete like any computer based system. I wish there was an option of "navigation ready" with more stadardization in the handheld GPS market in terms of power connections and dimensions... similar to car stereos. Then you could have a well integrated GPS system WITH handsfree bluetooth for your phone.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Built in navigaton isn't a great idea. In 6-10 years it will be obsolete like any computer based system.

    Each to his own, I guess...However, I disagree with you on this one.

    To many, it makes a lot of sense. Built-in units are much more apt to remain in the vehicle (ie., not stolen), and quite convenient for those who use them in their everyday travels, such as salespeople. And, in many cars, they already provide the desire you stated above...a well integrated GPS system WITH handsfree bluetooth for your phone.

    As for being obsolete, you can also use that logic with almost anything electronic...even radios. In a few short years, all cars will have HD radio as standard, and just like digital TV is eliminating analog TV in 2009, the same will happen to radio later on down the line.

    I'm not trying to pick your opinion apart here, but attempting to show why, to many, a built-in system is "value-added".

    In my opinion, its an option that I chose to buy. Yes, I paid more for it than a portable unit, but I also got more...so, for me, it was the right choice.

    Its all in how you view it, I guess....
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I just got back from a trip and saw about 4 or 5 new Accords on the expressway and followed a couple for awhile. I like the front and side views, in fact, when an Accord came up on me in my rear view mirror I was like, wow that is pretty cool looking. However, I have concluded that the rear view of the car is just plain ugly(IMHO). I found it so ugly that I have crossed it off my list of possibles. Mazda just increased their rebate to $2750 on the "6" so even though it is long in the tooth and is to be replaced by an all new model shortly, it is looking better and better.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The truth is, nobody's going to break in to steal a TomTom that's scuffed and weathered after a few months of use(even new, they sell for $100 on Ebay)

    And you can just yank it from the cradle and drop it in your pocket or center console out of sight. 5 seconds.

    It amazes me that people spend $2000 for something that you can buy at Best Buy for $200.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Once again, you are entitled to your own opinion. And, I am sure that you also purchase things that others would be amazed by as well.

    However, I would hazard to guess that many of the readers on this forum would disagree about the theft assessment. Some folks will steal anything that they can get their hands on, valuable or not....

    You obviously have formulated the opinion that anyone who disagrees with you on this issue is automatically wrong and quite possibly somewhere between ignorant and stupid, and that is your right...so be it.

    In any case, you don't have to look beyond the NAV-equipped new car sales figures to see that a factory installed NAV system is popular. If it wasn't a desired option, those cars equipped with them would simply sit on a lot and not sell...

    So, I suggest that you enjoy your portable NAV system and let those who prefer a factory unit enjoy theirs....
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You have to have an unlimited data plan, so add the cost is the data plan plus the $9.99 per month.

    No you don't and for my usage it's all you can eat navigation and minutes free while I'm using the application. My plan is about 1 year old and I don't have a data plan.

    Cell phone navigation may not be for everybody, it works perfectly for me and I never have to worry about software updates. And my navigation device is always with me. :) And it supports bluetooth and mp3s.
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