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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The Sonata looks nothing like the LS 460 in the rear. Different strokes for different folks.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    You can go all the way back to later 80s and the Probes/MX6s - the V6s were all Ford 'Vulcan' engines while the (preferred) 4 bangers were Mazda. Not too many folks know that the Probe was originally intended to replace the Mustang or that the MX6 was a simple rebadge of the Probe which then in turn begat the 626 and the 6 - and the (unfortunately) close relationship that has existed there ever since

    The 91 & 92 Probe V6 used the Vulcan, the 93+ used a Mazda designed and sourced engine. The more powerful 2.2 liter turbo motor was a Mazda sourced engine as was the base n/a 4.This has been discussed before, along with Toyota still using the 22RE at this time. The Mazda 626 was introduced in 1979 so I don't see that as been influenced by the Probe which came out in 1989.
    Again, the 93+ (the GF) was originally set up to be a sedan with a coupe/hatch derivative. This time, both engines were sourced from Mazda (2.3l I4/2.5l V6,IIRC) while the rebadged Tribute got the 3L duratec that Captain so enjoys.

    Those that believe that anything with more than 4 cylinders (or rotors) are 'Mazda' engines are deluding themselves IMO.

    Thankfully, we know what they say about opinions :P
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The front-end looks like an Accord with a Mazda emblem, the back looks like an LS460. It's clearly a step up in the styling dept IMO.

    I don't see Accord, I see IS250 or whatever the little RWD Lexus is called right now.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I think the rear looks like the Lexus 250. The front sort of looks like a TSX (hood and grill), but the arch on the front fenders is just too much, and doesn't seem to match the rest of the car.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,306
    i couldn't reply to 'cap' because 'reply' was covered up by a cadillac ad.
    certainly a lot fuzzy recollections, there.
    i'm pretty sure the 3.5 and up DT are a different architecture than the 3.0 DT.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    the rebadged Tribute got the 3L duratec that Captain so enjoys.

    The 2003-2006 Mazda6 s also had the Ford Duratec30(200hp), with the addition of Mazda's VV-T (220hp).

    capitan-

    The new Duratec35 and 37 are not just bored/stroked versions of the Duratec30. The 35 and 37 are adaptable to direct injection and are equipped with VV-T. Also, fuel economy has been drastically improved. Preliminary figures have Mazda's 3.7L version getting 27mpg's and 270hp. The Duratec30 in the current Mazda6 is rated at 215hp and only gets 25mpg's.

    Duratec is just Ford's name for their DOHC engines. Their current 4 cyl "Duratec" named engines are Mazda designed DOHC engines.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No resemblence in the rear? Moreso I think than the 2009 Mazda6 to the Accord.

    image
    image
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    No, Other than both have trunks, I do not see a resemblence.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There's also the fact that Lexus put the white lenses on top, and Hyundai put them on the bottom.

    How about this? The resemblence would be closer with the 2009 Sonata, as it has a mostly red lens.

    image

    image
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I'm trying, but all I see are some tail lights, trunk and exhausts. If anything Sonota has copied Lexus on the designs.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Uhm... that would have been very hard to do since the current Sonata rear-end design debuted in 2004. So I'm not sure where the "copying" remark came from (hard to copy something if the copy doesn't look anything like the original), but since you see evidence of copying, there's only one direction that could have taken... ;)

    One thing about the new Mazda6--it's really hard to pen a fresh design in the mid-sized sedan world, but I think Mazda did as good a job as any recent re-design on that score.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Uhm... that would have been very hard to do since the current Sonata rear-end design debuted in 2004

    Oh I thought it debuted in 2006. The Lexus IS debuted in 2005. I doubt they copied the sheetmetal too close to change the styling of the car.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Since the 2006 Sonata tail lights were an obvious copy of the 2003 Accord's tail lights, I don't see how anyone can claim someone else copied the 06 Sonata's tail lights.

    As far as the pictures of the Lexus and the Sonata, the lights are (mostly) red, and are both on the rear corners of the car. I don't see any other similarities.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    http://www.autoobserver.com/2008/04/honda-accord-be.html#more
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No, the current-gen Sonata was first available in the ROK in the fall of 2004 and in the U.S. in early 2005, as a 2006 MY car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'm glad to see more people are waking up to the fact that the Accord is a superior car to the Camry.

    I heard a report on the radio today that said GM is planning to build about 90,000 fewer large trucks and SUVs this year than last year--a move that is related to the numbers in the article.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Good article kd
    And they said the 08 Accord was too big. :confuse: Not for those people down-sizing from SUVs and trucks. Seems a lot of these consumers are buying the V6 model, and VCM is part of the attraction. It even outsold the F150!
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Great to see any car in the top sales spot. Given a choice between Accord and Camry, I'd rather see the Accord up there as I'd rather they be the model that other manufacturers look to emulate, rather than the Camry.

    Edmunds needs better editors, though. The article says: Honda was the only brand with three vehicles on the Top 10 Best-Selling Vehicle list. but there are three Toyotas in the top 10, as well (Camry, Corolla, Prius).
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    The new Duratec35 and 37 are not just bored/stroked versions of the Duratec30. The 35 and 37 are adaptable to direct injection and are equipped with VV-T. Also, fuel economy has been drastically improved
    Point to whatever you would like but the result is still the same - a substandard engine (relative to things like the Toyota/Nissan/Hyundai engines). The 'old' DT while it might have had the right number of camshafts and even the 'right' architecture was and is a poor excuse for an engine these days, besides being seriously short in the HP dept. it is noted for primarily its lack of refinement. Fast forward to the too late 3.5/3.7 and yes with a 30% displacement increase we do see some reasonable (and competitive) HP but the same lack of refinement and ALSO an apparent increase in appetite. You'll see these kind of comments pretty regularly in expert reviews and not just based on my own experience 500-/Fusion for the 3.0 or the 3.5 with a Edge. Specifically look over the February issue of CR and its test of the Taurus - the second rate nature of the 3.5 and the fact that FE is DOWN with the new engine are both discussed at some length. So which to believe, the spec sheets or actual tests and experiences - I know I know publications like CR all have it in for poor old Ford, despite ranking the Fusion near the top in this category despite the engine 'insufficiences'. And yes, I'll freely admit to a anti- Ford bias when it comes to what they did to Mazda :cry: and I do feel sorry for those folks that might be stuck with a 'new and improved' DT3.0 in the next Fusion, the more things change the more they stay the same
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Reviews for the Mazda CX-9, which utilizes the Mazda built 3.7L has nothing but wonderful reviews, including praise for refinement under the hood, fuel economy expected for the amount of power it has and the weight of the vehicle it pulls. There is no negative remarks involved with the power train what so ever. First indications are that this is the engine that Mazda will use in the 6.
  • carzzzcarzzz Member Posts: 282
    very interesting article!
    From what i reading from pressroom.toyota.com sales report, 40487 units of camry (including solara) were sold in March. Solara should be counted as "camry coupe", but still the dual still outsell the accord (including accord coupe)!
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    And yes, I'll freely admit to a anti- Ford bias when it comes to what they did to Mazda

    Well that about sums it all up right there folks.

    A little research goes a long way captain. I don't believe anyone here has the time or desire to correct all of your opinions with facts though. I know I certainly don't.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Mazda6 may require a V6 to fulfill the "I want it" factor for USA, it certainly does not NEED a V6 as the 2.5L has more than adequate performance.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Yes, in the rest of the world the 2.5 I4 is the performance engine. I guess the 2.5 is good enough for the autobahn, but somehow not enough for Americans.

    Other options eleswhere (based on UK site) are 1.8, 2.0, and diesel.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I sure a heck will not disagree with that. Since there are an abundance of Americans that "need" a V6, and there is a big market for it, Mazda is offering one.

    The 2.5L seems to be enough for me. I have the 2,3L right now. I have always thought the 2.3L could use some more power, so the 2.5L should be just fine, as long as the fuel economy at least stayed the same, or better.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    correct what - that Mazda uses Ford V6 engines (and vice versa for the 4s) and has for years and years? And you folks out there really buy that the 3.7 supposedly going in the new 6 isn't also going to be a Ford engine - it HAS been that way for 20 years except for a few years in the 90s (that OHC 2.5 timing belt? V6 that one poster mentioned? Let's put it this way - if it really is a Mazda designed, engineered, and built engine then it will likely be a much more competitive effort then it might otherwise. Hope so for Mazda's sake - I personally think very well of the Mazda product have owned a few over the years but also have not and will not touch one with a Ford engine (the DT) in it.
    you are welcome to spend your time however you choose...
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    correct what - that Mazda uses Ford V6 engines (and vice versa for the 4s) and has for years and years?

    No. That you don't even know where the Duratec block originated from and the differences between applications is where things get cloudy in your posts. You seem to have driven one example of it and wrote off the whole line. Some versions of the Duratec line are a little rought I'll admit. But after having owned 3 vehicles, and driven a few others, with different versions of that motor, I know better.

    Now that we all know you dislike Ford and Mazda (the latter for belonging to Ford) those clouds are parting.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Isn't a 3.7 L engine overkill for a car the size of the Mazda6? It's the smallest car in this segment, and it's going to have the largest engine? Can't they get enough power for that car out of a smaller engine?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Some versions of the Duratec line are a little rought I'll admit. But after having owned 3 vehicles, and driven a few others, with different versions of that motor, I know better.

    I especially like that in contrast to the Toyota and Nissan offerings, Premium fuel is not required for the Duratec (or Ecoboost, for that matter).
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Isn't a 3.7 L engine overkill for a car the size of the Mazda6? It's the smallest car in this segment

    Not anymore. The North American Mazda6 grew a bit. It's not as big as the Accord or Camry, I really think it will be a shade smaller then the Altima.

    Can't they get enough power for that car out of a smaller engine?

    3.7 v 3.5. Really, what's the difference?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Just yesterday, weren't you saying something like bigger is good? ;)

    The Malibu and Aura have 3.6L V6s. As was noted, some other mid-sizers have 3.5s. So 3.7L, not really a big deal, is it?
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Just yesterday, weren't you saying something like bigger is good?

    Isn't the 3.7 heavier than the 3.0? And less fuel efficient? Of course the 3.0 is no fuel miser either. ;)
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Isn't the 3.7 heavier than the 3.0? And less fuel efficient? Of course the 3.0 is no fuel miser either

    Not really. Remember, the 3.7 and 3.0 use a smilar block, if not the same block. Also, preliminary EPA estimates have the 3.7 with 27mpg highway and the 3.0 is rated at 25 mpg highway. The 3.7 will also boast a 55hp advantage.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    3.7 v 3.5. Really, what's the difference?

    Also, the largest power difference between the D35 and D37 is not the HP but rather the torque. The D35 in the Edge and in the first year of the CX-9 makes 263 horses and something like 246 ft-lbs of torque. The D37 only increases the HP by 7 but the torque increase is roughly double that. I don't think the gas mileage decreased much if any when the CX-9 switched from the D35 to the D37 either. Both, like avi said, are more fuel efficient than the D30.

    Now the PIP D30 in the '09 Escape (and possibly the '10 Fusion) is supposed to be right up ther with them in fuel efficiency among other improvments. Those specs aren't official yet so we'll have to wait and see. The Escape gets the new D30 because the D35 doesn't fit. I understand that the D35 does fit in the Fusion but Ford has been unusually quiet about the '10 Fusion which we're supposed to see this fall in L.A.
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    I agree with you. Having owned both a 2.5 and a 3.0 AJ series Duratec, I've found them to be very competitive with the same displacement N/A engines in BMWs. The 3.0 AJ series makes the same HP and torque as the BMW N/A 3.0 and pulls strongly to redline without distress. Seems refined enough for me.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Edmunds needs better editors, though. The article says: Honda was the only brand with three vehicles on the Top 10 Best-Selling Vehicle list. but there are three Toyotas in the top 10, as well (Camry, Corolla, Prius).

    Honda had three cars in the Top Ten for the first quarter, which was shown in the chart below the March numbers. Toyota did not. Read again.

    http://www.autoobserver.com/2008/04/honda-accord-be.html#more
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    I noticed the SEI4 model has been dropped....only way to get a manual now is in the lower level GLS.

    Also, Rumors are going around that NIssan will be dropping the 6spd manual from the Altima lineup in 09...wonder how true that is...
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    believe that the DT was acquired by Ford from Porsche but PLEASE PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. It is not just me that has seemingly written the 'new' DT off, reference that Taurus test in the February CR I referenced. I have owned several Mazdas - 2 RXs,a 808, a GLC and (indirectly) a Probe - actually think that MAZDA makes a good car - just don't like the engines that they put in them. Since I prefer the power of the V6s I hold Ford responsible for that. This thread was seemingly started by conversations about this 'great new Mazda' 3.7, which I regard as still a DT and still a Ford engine. I only wish that the Speed6 hadn't been so short lived.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    No, you should read again they are talking about March sales there. Here is the full paragraph:

    To that end, Honda’s success in March wasn’t limited to the Accord. Honda was the only brand with three vehicles on the Top 10 Best-Selling Vehicle list.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    huh? Premium is NOT required for either the VQ or the 2GR either. It is that contrast specifically with engines like this that accentuate what a V6 (in this example) SHOULD BE. Ford would do well to take some pointers from the GM 3.6 in the Malibu or even the 3.3 in the Sonata, and forget about trying to compete with the other two!
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    It is not just me that has seemingly written the 'new' DT off, reference that Taurus test in the February CR I referenced.

    Of course, since CR (a magazine that tests toasters and fabric softeners) is such an "authority" on cars. Right...

    This thread was seemingly started by conversations about this 'great new Mazda' 3.7, which I regard as still a DT and still a Ford engine. I only wish that the Speed6 hadn't been so short lived.

    ...And I only wished you weren't so short-sighted.

    The "great new Mazda 3.7L" seem to have some merit, since it's included in the CX-9, winner of the North American Truck of the Year. Motor Trend picked it as it's SUV of the Year, saying the 3.7L "behaves in a silky, refined matter, accentuated by a sporty growl from the dual exhaust"(Motor Trend, December 2007). Car and Driver named it one of the 5-Best Trucks. I've seen nothing but praise for the CX-9, and the 3.7L is part of the reason.

    Go ahead and put down the DT based on your limited experience with the 3.0L, but I've always gone on the phrase "Don't knock it until you've tried it." I've personally driven the CX-9 with the new 3.7L, and it's a HUGE step up from the 3.0L in my Mazda6, both in power and smoothness, and it'll make an excellent engine in the upcoming 6.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I've personally driven the CX-9 with the new 3.7L, and it's a HUGE step up from the 3.0L in my Mazda6, both in power and smoothness,

    50 or 60 HP will do that, won't it, even in a heavier vehicle like the CX - making it unnecessary perhaps to wring every last bit of available power our of it as you did out of the 3.0. I 'm sorry but the the 3.0 at 5000 rpm is anything but 'fun' and I read the same sort of thing about the 3.5 and likewise have experienced it in the similar Edge - and I'm not nearly the only one - even if you don't like what an organization like CR has to say. It does lead one to the inescapable conclusion that there is whole lot more of the 3.0 in the 3.5 (and possibly the 3.7) than Ford or Mazda would have us believe.
    I would suggest to you that the CX9 win in TOY has more to do with what the vehicle does unrelated to what happens to be under the hood - as is a tradition of sorts with Mazda products. Mazda, in particular, has always made a specific type of vehicle (call it 'zoom-zoom if you must) and done it well.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I only wish that the Speed6 hadn't been so short lived.

    +1000!

    The Speed6 is a total marketing blunder by Mazda. That car is a prime example of how not to market a car.

    autoblog.com reported that a new Mazda6 MPS (Mazdaspeed in Japan and North America) is on the way with a 2.5L turbo and 280hp and AWD. I highly doubt it will make it over here. With the Mazda6 V6 putting down 270hp, I really don't see many people making the jump to the Mazdaspeed. Personally, I really think a new Mazdaspeed6 would need at least 300hp to be a success here in NA.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    whether you like boosting the bejeepers out of something to get that kind of power or not, the Speed6 at least was a car with the 'right stuff'. It was awfully expensive I guess and would otherwise leave the other V6 engined cars in this group in the dust. An ATed Duratech 3.7 270hp as a Mazdaspeed anything is a contradiction in terms.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The weird thing is, the 2009 Sonata SE I4 is priced higher than the Limited but doesn't have anywhere close to the equipment level of the Limited. Now that there's no stick on the SE, and the price has gone WAY up (nearly $3000 more than the 2008 SE I4 w/stick, although the 2009 has the 5AT), I wonder how many of those SEs they will sell?

    Edit: Just noticed there's an error on hyundaiusa.com. The Compare Trims page says the I4 is standard on the SE and V6 is optional. But other pages, including Build Your Own, are clear that the V6 is standard on the SE. That would explain why the SE costs more than the Limited I4.
  • ccd1ccd1 Member Posts: 140
    And that would bring the MS6 in head to head competition with the STI and EVO
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    272 @ 6650 232 ft·lb 2750-4250 . Don't think the Duratech is quite in the same league.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Where did you get those power numbers for the DT37? Also, which application was it for?

    Numbers I have seen, and probably not supposed to see, was 270hp and 268tq for the 3.7 in the Mazda6.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    An ATed Duratech 3.7 270hp as a Mazdaspeed anything is a contradiction in terms.

    You got that right....
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    No, you should read again they are talking about March sales there.

    Sorry, wrong again. :confuse:
    Two separate sentences, and two separate statements.

    To that end, Honda’s success in March wasn’t limited to the Accord.

    Honda was the only brand with three vehicles on the Top 10 Best-Selling Vehicle list.
    The second sentence does not say For March only, and does not mean just for March. What they were saying is, March was a good month for other Honda cars too, and it HELPED them get three vehicles into the Top Ten for the first quarter. The chart for the 1st quarter is directly under the chart for March, and that's the chart the last sentence was referring to. Not Edmunds fault, if you can't read and comprehend.
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