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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, not quite mid-sized, but $10k for a new Elantra (mid-sized inside) sounds pretty nice!
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    listed in Edmunds comparison tool shows the Malibu to have a 40.4 ft turning circle vs the Mazda6 at 38.7 ft. Before I bought my current Mazda6 I read all the reviews I could find and it seems like every review found fault with the large turning radius of the car. I don't recall any reviewers slamming the Malibu for an even larger turning circle.

    BTW, the Sonata's is only 35.8 ft.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Hmmm... some sources put the Malibu's turning circle at 40 feet. But some put it at 36 feet. Are there different ways to measure turning circle?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Hmmm... some sources put the Malibu's turning circle at 40 feet. But some put it at 36 feet. Are there different ways to measure turning circle?

    The 4 cyl and the 6 cyl might use different steering racks, like in the Accords (the 4cyl has a tighter turning circle than the V6 prior to 2008).

    I think the VW Vanagon and the Toyota Van of the 80s, where the front wheels were under the driver's tushie, seemed to have pretty incredible turning circles if the front overhang cleared the curb.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Cars.com specs put Malibu Turning Radius at 20.2 ' which would obviously be 40.4' turning circle.

    The Car Connection specs put it at 40.4' also.

    New Car Test Drive also shows 40.4'.

    I pulled up the 4cyl each time. Don't know if the 6cyl stats are different.

    Anyway, I think it's a good example of how things work in the review world. A reviewer just happens to pick up on something and everyone else just apes it. Similarly, if the first few reviewers don't really notice something, it may go unreported entirely.

    I remember test driving a Sonata and the salesman pointed out the tight turning radius and I was impressed with it. I don't mind the turning radius(38.7') on my Mazda6 but all the reviewers sure did. It just seemed strange that they all thought it was too large on the 6 but never mention it on the Malibu. This among other things has proven to me that all these "professional" reviews must really be taken with a grain of salt and the only test drive that really matters is your own.
  • karsickkarsick Member Posts: 312
    FWIW-

    My last car, an Infiniti G20t, had a h u g e turning radius... Annoying when parking, but I assume was also part of the reason the CV joints & axles lasted over 250k miles.

    I sure wouldn't let that one spec keep me from buying a car I liked.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I sure wouldn't let that one spec keep me from buying a car I liked

    Nor I. I like to do the pluses and minuses and that's just one of the minuses. Like I said, it sure didn't stop me from buying the M6 even though the reviewers had problems with it. Slight adjustment is all when parking mostly.

    The G20T was a nice looking little car. Wish Infiniti had not stopped making it. It was ahead of it's time and with gas prices what they are people would probably be willing to pay for the luxury in a small package. Although the Cimmaron didn't do well in the 70s when we had the last gas crisis. The G20T and the Cimmaron are obviously different cars; quality and looks especially.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Some 6 owners have commented on the difficulty parking in tight spots. I haven't heard of Malibu owners complaining about this,,,yet. A lot of things affect turning radius, like engine type, engine placement, suspension, size of the wheels and tires, and the width of the car. Doesn't help if the car is narrow, and the engine is large. They want to have a low center of gravity (better handling and stability), so they lower the engine, but other things, like turning radius, are compromised.
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    I did notice that my turning radius didn't seem much worse in my Sonata vs older Elantra. That elantra had a pretty slick 33' radius. Being in something with a 40' radius would have probably made me go insane when doing u-turns/3-points. I wonder what differences in design/wheelbase cause a 4.5' difference comparing midsize sedans.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Some 6 owners have commented on the difficulty parking in tight spots

    Add me to that list.

    While my 2005 Mazda6 has some short comings, I still love it, and I am not looking to replace it.
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    Despite the soft economy new mid-size car sales were up for May and for the year-to-date. The table below from the Wall Street Journal is from the Top 20 vehicles current month's sales.

    Make/May 08 Sales/% Change from May 07/YTD 2008 Sales/% Change from 2007 YTD
    Toyota Camry/…51,291/…2.3%/…198,309/…2.3%
    Honda Accord/…43,728/…37%/…166,158/…8.3%
    Chevy Impala/…23,803/…(33.3%)/…122,281/…(15.4%)
    Ford Fusion/…18,088/…26.7%/…73,197/…10.5%
    Chevy Malibu/…15,634/…51.3%/…73,760/…40%

    From the above it is clear that the Camry and Accord sales more than 3 times that of the Malibu. With such low volume sales it does not appear that GM’s $100 million advertising campaign for Malibu is working effectively.

    The figures above include Hybrid sales for the Accord and Camry. By the way, neither the Sonata nor the Altima made it in the top 20.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    How can you say that GM's advertising on the Malibu is not working? They have increased sales by 40% over last year, while Toyota is up only 2.3% and Honda is up 8.3%. Even Ford has a higher increase in YTD sales then Honda and Toyota, and Honda has a new Accord!! Thats bad for Honda!

    The purpose of advertising is to increase sales. GM has done what with the Malibu. BTW, The Accord is only selling little more then 2 times more then Malibu.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    FYI, the Altima was #7 in May, selling just below the Ford and Chevy pickups. And Sonata sales were up about 12% and Elantra (mid-sized by volume) up 46%. Elantra fell just out of the top 20, with nearly 14,000 sales.
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    There's no way a mostly overlooked car such as the Malibu will suddenly rise to Camry/Accord sales after a year of finally having a competitive model. At best, the Malibu could hit sales parity in 5 or so years assuming a lot of changeover from japanese to american... somehow I doubt it'll happen. At best I think GM is looking to hit half the sales of a Camry/Accord, that would be a huge boost imho.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Exactly. Accord and Camry didn't sell 400K/year the first few years either. It takes 4-5 generations of steady improvements to build up a recurring buyer base large enough to sustain those types of sales numbers. The Fusion, e.g., is just now eligible for repeat buyers since it's been out for just over 2.5 years now. And that's only for those with 2 yr leases. We'll have to wait another year or so for the 3 yr lease rollovers and probably another year after that for repeat purchasers.

    And Accord/Camry won't lose all of those customers overnight, just like the others won't gain them that quickly.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    It seems to me that all the consumers not buying F-150s and Silverados would be buying Fusions and Malibus. Some of them are, but many are not. Ford and GM would not make as much profit on the cars, but at least they would be selling something. From the numbers I've seen, most of the fuel conscious buyers are choosing the Civic, Corolla, Camry, or Accord. Bad news for Detroit.
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    Well I'm sure this will be discussed, but for mid-size cars...here's that initial love!

    1. Chevy Malibu
    2. Mitsubishi Galant (WHOA SURPRISE!)
    3. Ford Fusion

    Interesting that the top 3 has no Honda or Toyota, instead we have the two big american makers and a surprise japanese brand with a terrible rep. Discuss! ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    JD Power has never had results favoring CRs favorites.

    I remember the old Sonata winning this award a time or two, myself.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Why do you feel it necessary to post the same exact information in multiple forums?

    Just curious...
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It seems to me that all the consumers not buying F-150s and Silverados would be buying Fusions and Malibus. Some of them are, but many are not. ...... From the numbers I've seen, most of the fuel conscious buyers are choosing the Civic, Corolla, Camry, or Accord.

    There is NO way for you to know that. You're just making wild, biased guesses that can't be proven or dis proven. No pickup driver who uses their truck would trade it for a car. Neither will most SUV drivers. Large pickups might be replaced by smaller pickups (ranger sales were up recently) and SUVs might be replaced by CUVs (I just traded a V8 Aviator for a V6 Edge). Large/midsized cars might be replaced by smaller cars.

    Incidentally, focus retail sales are DOUBLE (103%) what they were last year and had it's best sales month ever in May. Convenient that you left it out of the list.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    To be fair, there are a lot of people who have SUVs that are looking to trade for cars....there are two in my family. The wife bought a midsized SUV in 2002 because she liked to haul a lot of plants and stuff but with current gas prices she regrets it and would like to get back to a car.

    There are also a lot of suburban owners of pick-ups that only use them as pick-ups occassionaly. I have a couple of neighbors that are looking to trade for cars.

    I agree that somebody who really needs a large vehicle or a truck will not go to car--they can't.

    Also, to be fair, Focus sales would be about 1/2 of what they are if it were not for SYNC. Even Ford dealers will tell you that. It's a really hot item that fits into the Focus's demographics. However, it is what is for whatever reason and should be noted as you say.
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    Speaking of trading from SUV to a car...sounds like we'll need more midsize hatchbacks/wagons since they can cover a lot of the storage utility that a CUV or SUV can bring.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    No pickup driver who uses their truck would trade it for a car. Neither will most SUV drivers.

    Many of these people do not use their vehicle for anything that a car can not do. I just read an article last weekend where a local dealer said: The trend that we're seeing that's interesting now is people with full-size SUVs and pickups going into economy cars

    He also goes on to say:

    Many are families who own two large vehicles and are keeping one to use on the weekend to haul a boat, but they're buying a small car for commuting. and that the dealership typically has 40 Focuses in stock but it's tough to build up more than five right now and the Fusions are in low stock as well.

    http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=757105

    So people not buying trucks are making many different choices.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    No pickup driver who uses their truck would trade it for a car. Neither will most SUV drivers.

    That's not what I said. The trade-in value of a truck is not good right now.
    Say there's this guy "Joe Blow".
    He needs his full size truck for hauling a boat or camper on the weekends, but also uses it for commuting 70 miles 5 days a week (hauling nothing but himself). Don't you think Joe would decide to keep the old truck for hauling the boat on weekends, and buy a new car, instead of a new truck, for commuting. The money saved on gas, could pay for the car in some cases.
  • karsickkarsick Member Posts: 312
    FWIW -

    I've always been skeptical of JD Power's owners' surveys (ever since Buicks were scoring higher than their GM stablemates).

    Is there a chance that the owner of a new $40k Buick is perhaps easier to satisfy than the owner of a new $40k Acura (who I'd assume more likely cross-shopped at Lexus, Infiniti, BMW & Mercedes before buying)????

    Granted, I don't think the Malibu, Fusion or Galant are junk, but....perhaps it reveals their owners' expectation levels. :confuse:
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    I'd say no because usually toyota and honda HAVE been top 3 of the category. Only recently have they finally been overtaken. Or do you think people have suddenly completely changed their expectations and opinions with the last couple years? I'm doubting that. I think these cars have just gotten their functionality and likeablility up enough that nobody has major complaints in the first 90 days so far. There does seem to be a lot of shifting year to year though. One year camry was #1, next it wasn't in the top 3.
  • john178john178 Member Posts: 48
    I've compared/contrasted the Camry, Accord, and Malibu- for the money, the Malibu is the best choice. It's not GM's fault for consumers not buying the Malibu- people continue to be brainwashed that imports are so much better than domestics, and for some reason buying imports seems to be a status symbol.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Although initial quality does not mean much to me, the fact that Toyota is #4 and Honda #6 shows that they do have a little work to do on the initial quality side. Both makes have had their fair share of minor issues (rattles) and it shows in this ranking, because Camry and Accord both have some issues.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I just read a related article in the Herald Tribune (int'l NY Times) that said dealers are seeing more buyers trade the big trucks for small cars, like the Focus. These are people who do need a truck, e.g. for hauling a trailer occasionally, but have figured out they can RENT a truck for the few times each year they need one, and save lots of money on gas the rest of the year. Amazing how $4 a gallon for gas suddenly made people realize that this is a viable strategy.

    This article noted that the automakers see this trend as permanent, not some fad. So we'll be seeing small to medium sized cars top the sales charts in the future. Hopefully we'll also see more choice in roomy but fuel-efficient cars--like cars that have mid-sized interiors but compact exteriors, such as the Elantra, Prius, Sentra, and Versa.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Only recently have they finally been overtaken. Or do you think people have suddenly completely changed their expectations and opinions with the last couple years?

    Yes. There is obviously a disconnect between surveys and sales. If the surveys in fact really were statistically accurate, sales would follow. After all why would anybody buy something that's at the bottom of the barrel?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    It's not GM's fault for consumers not buying the Malibu- people continue to be brainwashed that imports are so much better than domestics, and for some reason buying imports seems to be a status symbol.

    I want to develop a product that people to buy it again and again and again because their brainwashed.

    I'm one of those brainwashed people, and you know what when you give me my next Malibu I'll drive it, until then I'll spend my money on the car of my choice and buy it for my own reasons. And it's none of your business if I view the Accord as a status symbol, if that is even possible. :confuse
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Yes. There is obviously a disconnect between surveys and sales. If the surveys in fact really were statistically accurate, sales would follow.

    Wrong, wrong, wrong. You assume that the primary factor for purchasing a vehicle is reliability/quality and that is simply not true. For a lot of people, price is the major factor. For others it's features or interior or exterior styling. Some people are loyal to a brand or model regardless of anything else. Some people want a status symbol. Do you really think a BMW buyer cares whether BMW is at the top, middle or bottom?
  • 2002slt2002slt Member Posts: 228
    "For a lot of people, price is the major factor. For others it's features or interior or exterior styling."

    If those were the only two factors, the 2009 Hyundia Sonata would be the hands down top seller. It's too bad the brand has such a stigma attached to it. They should have changed the name, like Datsun did long ago.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Do you really think a BMW buyer cares whether BMW is at the top, middle or bottom?

    Yes. If BMW was at the bottom of the heap, nobody would buy an overpriced piece of junk and sales would suffer.

    IMO BMW buyers are picker than Buick buyers. Given a BMW and Buick the same flaw on a BMW would send it lower in ratings than a Buick.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Granted, I don't think the Malibu, Fusion or Galant are junk, but....perhaps it reveals their owners' expectation levels

    I think you might be right there. The Fusion and Malibu are 10 times better then what they replaced, therefore the people who have bought them now think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread, while Honda and Toyota have not made any significant advance in quality.

    It's all about perception.

    Look at the reviews for the 09 Mazda6. They are bashing the old one, when Edmunds.com editors said it was their favorite. It was also touted as having good build quality, and now it's trashed in favor of the new one. Once again, it's about perception.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If BMW was at the bottom of the heap, nobody would buy an overpriced piece of junk and sales would suffer.

    BMW 7 series' have always had crappy quality, but that didn't stop people from buying them.

    3-4 years ago Mercedes was at the bottom, but people didn't stop buying them.

    We're only talking about one half of one service visit between the top and bottom. It's not the difference between a mid 90's Accord and a Yugo.
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    Ahem, this is complete logical fallacy in so many ways. A survey is just a report on data from customers who have already bought a car. It has absolutely little influence on the actual sales of a car. How many people actually READ and USE the survey results? Not many at all. Maybe just the people on this board even.

    How many people are influenced in car buying here over the fact that tons of people and friends will automatically recommend a toyota or honda because of "reliability"? And yes they do, I've seen it myself plenty.

    My friend who loves fancy cars will immediately be like "oh you want a cheap car, uh get a honda or toyota because they're reliable" And of course I went the other direction and got a hyundai because it's reliable and less expensive :) But I gotta say, NOT A SINGLE PERSON I KNEW RECOMMENDED A HYUNDAI TO ME. This was back in 2003. Hopefully things have changed...but I for one will recommend whatever is best for a person, I hate brands. Since after I got mine, a number of other people I know now own or have looked at hyundais. This is certainly a difference from the past. Anyways it'll take many many years for all the [non-permissible content removed] influences in the market to ever be changed.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    BMW 7 series' have always had crappy quality, but that didn't stop people from buying them.

    Yean, like the Lexus GX430 or whatever it was. BMW has fixed the issues, have you driving a 750? If not take it for a test drive.

    3-4 years ago Mercedes was at the bottom, but people didn't stop buying them.

    True dat, people also bought the Aztec, Yugo and Pinto. But Mercedes sales were down.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    How many people are influenced in car buying here over the fact that tons of people and friends will automatically recommend a toyota or honda because of "reliability"? And yes they do, I've seen it myself plenty.

    I've seen it also, along with plenty of reliable Hondas and plenty of unreliable Hyundias. Yeah, that is why it will take years and years for a switch, if it ever happens.

    I hate brands

    Aren't all cars part of a brand?
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    When I say hate brands, I mean I hate purely brand based thought process. Brands can matter in some situations, but in many, it's a worthless identifier. For cars in the current generation, brands have become far more meaningless.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Some people are loyal to a brand or model regardless of anything else. Some people want a status symbol. Do you really think a BMW buyer cares whether BMW is at the top, middle or bottom

    Speaking as a BMW owner...Yes, I do care whether BMW is at the top, middle or bottom. If I felt it was unreliable, I would buy a competitor's product.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    the other day... the European version, that is, in Madrid. Unfortunately I didn't have my camera handy. The greenhouse looked a lot like that of the US version. Very sharp looking car, even in white as it was. Can't wait to see the US version up close.

    Did anyone notice whether Mazda has said ESC will be standard across the line on the 2009 Mazda6? I don't recall seeing that.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Will be standard.
  • packer3packer3 Member Posts: 277
    I dont think the Malibu or the Accord deserves to be there and I have an 08 Accord.
    These awards shouldn't go out until almost a full year goes by and this goes for any model.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    With an "Initial Quality" study, why would the cars need to be out for a year?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    He just meant to do a 1 yr quality survey rather than 90 days.

    JD Power already does a 3 yr dependability survey - unfortunately you have to wait 3 years to get results (funny how that works).
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    JD Power already does a 3 yr dependability survey - unfortunately you have to wait 3 years to get results (funny how that works).

    Pity, isn't it? ;)
  • pmomtvpmomtv Member Posts: 7
    Yeah, you must be right - whenever a domestic model doesn't sell as well as a "foreign" competitor then we are all just brainwashed, status seeking buffoons. Couldn't be the fact that myself, my parents, and my mother-in-law all had such great experiences with our previous Camry or Accord that we purchased another - nah.
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    I wrote this response to the J.D. Power quality survey questionnaire sometime in early April about our 2008 Malibu. The car had no reportable conditions and based upon my experience (and perhaps others) that should have moved the Malibu up the quality chart.
    bwia, "2008 Chevrolet Malibu" #830, 3 Apr 2008 6:43 am
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    Um I don't know about you, but I certainly found everything I liked and disliked and what was working in my vehicle in the first 90 days. This is really regarding built quality and design for a car that is fresh off the factory. I've already tried basically every function in my car in the first 30 days and figured out all my possible nitpicks..of which there are surprisingly few!
    The 3 year dependability survey is for long term reliability/quality. You can certainly look at that and compare cars too...a new one should be out in a few months.
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