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2008 Minivans

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Comments

  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    I do think an underfloor storage would be useful. Honda offers a small lazy Susan and Dodge offers two large bins.

    I guess what Toyota offers instead is a large center console, plus you can actually get two of them - a 2nd for the middle row.

    More than one way to skin a cat, I suppose.

    I guess if you don't have anything big to stash, they would be fine. I have a small televesion, battery cables, blanket, tape, a few tools. tie straps, first aid kit and a couple of boxes of tissues in one of my bins. The other bin has the seat in it, as I usually keep it stowed for the dog to set on, or when I carry something heavy, I don't want to lift it up in the tail gate. But if you just want to use it as a people hauler, two consoles should do just fine. I just hate having anything laying out in my van. I had to do that with my truck, but no more.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Maybe instead of having the storage areas, they could make a place there for your feet, so your knees aren't so much in the air and the seats in the 2nd row aren't angled up so high. I'd rather have a more comfortable seating position than storage under my feet.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    Just get Stow-N-Go and you get bigger and thicker seats and set higher, plus, you still get the storage bins. One thing about the 2008 Chrysler vans, they give you everything you need but seating for eight. :)
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    It's kind of boring on these boards lately, since Chrysler came out with their new 2008 minivan. They took away most of the reasons to complain and not buy a Chrysler minivan. All except the idea that an American company can't make a reliable vehicle. That's a shame too. Because the big three are putting out some pretty good vehicles now and buying American made and American owned, helps all Americans. Helps our balance of trade, helps strengthen our dollar and creates jobs through all our other industries.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Did you see the "Big Quality Control Issue" posting? I'm always suspicious when someone joins one day, and the next posts a very negative experience. Person didn't take the time to provide any other info on himself. You'd think he had been a member prior to it, would have been researching his major purchase etc.. So there'll always be reasons to complain, even if they may be bogus.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    No, I didn't see this one but I have made comments about some a while back. I know some (NEW) posters will pretend they own a certain minivan or car just to bad mouth it. But there are some that have had some legitimate complaints with American owned vehicles down through the years, that's turned them off on American made and owned vehicles. It's a shame too, as the big three have come a long way in addressing the quality of their vehicles.

    As I said before, buying American made and owned, helps all Americans, not just the people making the vehicles. It strengthens our dollar, that's been losing value like crazy. It creates jobs in all the other industries. It cuts our balance of trade, etc. To see that America no longer owns the majority of our own market is really disheartening. We have lost so many jobs to foreign countries, it's hard to try and maintain the middle class in this country anymore.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    CHEAP plastic door panels and taking off nice features that were on my 2002 T&C LX caused me to shop Odyssey and Sienna.

    Based on reading elsewhere, I think Daimler was responsible for destroying the formerly very attractive door panels and seats on Chrysler minivans in addition to killing Plymouth and watering down the CHRYSLER nameplate.

    My sister's 1986 Caravan SE had VERY Nice, Attractive door panels and VERY NICE seats. A base 2001-2007 SE became an "el-cheapo" that looks like it was made by Daewoo, Yugo, or Trabant. :cry:
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    I don't know. When I see the Chrysler van seats, they're not very flat, but angle up a lot. So your butt is low and knees high. With the Odyssey & Sienna seats, it seems like you're sitting in a more natural position, like a comfortable chair. You have to admit, unless the ground clearance of the Chrysler minivans is only one inch, they must raise the floor somewhat to allow under the floor space.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    I don't know. When I see the Chrysler van seats, they're not very flat, but angle up a lot. So your butt is low and knees high. With the Odyssey & Sienna seats, it seems like you're sitting in a more natural position, like a comfortable chair. You have to admit, unless the ground clearance of the Chrysler minivans is only one inch, they must raise the floor somewhat to allow under the floor space.

    Have you tried the front seats of the new Chrysler? On my 2005, my wife has a hard time even reaching the floor. On the new one, it sits differently and she finds it very comfortable. As for the middle Stow-N-Go, they are still slanted, but Swivel-N-Go are much nicer. Don't compare the old seats with the new ones except Stow-N-Go. They are different.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    CHEAP plastic door panels and taking off nice features that were on my 2002 T&C LX caused me to shop Odyssey and Sienna.

    Based on reading elsewhere, I think Daimler was responsible for destroying the formerly very attractive door panels and seats on Chrysler minivans in addition to killing Plymouth and watering down the CHRYSLER nameplate.

    My sister's 1986 Caravan SE had VERY Nice, Attractive door panels and VERY NICE seats. A base 2001-2007 SE became an "el-cheapo" that looks like it was made by Daewoo, Yugo, or Trabant.

    They did take a lot off the newer ones (2005 0n) but it wasn't just the fault of Daimler. American manufactures are fighting a up hill battle with foreign makes.

    "It's been hard for Chrysler and American automotive manufactures to compete with the advantages the foreign makers have in profit. They can't put as much in R/D into their vehicles. Foreign makers here are not paying the health care for retirees. Have thousands fewer retirees to pay for. Not paying as much in health care, because their employees are younger. Got many of their new plants at big tax discounts to bring them into these states. Pay lower wages."

    Japanese widen profit gap over U.S. automakers
    Associated Press
    August 8, 2007
    Article tools
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    Digg Del.icio.us Facebook Furl Google Newsvine Reddit Spurl Yahoo Print Single page view Reprints Reader feedback Text size: TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. - Japanese automakers widened their profit-making gap over the Big Three domestic automakers last year by 31 percent, according to a study released Tuesday.

    The profit gap, which already was significant in 2005 at $2,899 per vehicle sold in North America, widened by $915, to $3,814, according to a study of industry costs and profits by Laurie Harbour-Felax, managing director of Stout Risius Ross, a Chicago-based financial and operational advisory firm.

    The study, made public at an automotive industry conference, found that while General Motors Corp. had improved its efficiency and cut production costs, the nation's largest automaker and its Detroit counterparts, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, still have a long way to go to match the profits of Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co.

    GM cut its loss per vehicle in North America to $146 in 2006 from $1,271 in 2005, largely because of cost cuts that included the departure of more than 34,000 hourly workers to buyout and early retirement offers. It also is saving money on efforts to design cars and trucks globally, by increasing the number of parts common to all of its vehicles and by purchasing parts on a global basis, Harbour-Felax said.

    "GM has done the most from this as you look at their whole product lineup," she said.

    Still, GM made $2,123 less per vehicle than Toyota in 2006, according to the report. Toyota, the most profitable of all automakers on a per-vehicle basis, increased its profit per vehicle from $1,175 in 2005 to $1,977 in 2006, the report said. The numbers for individual manufacturers are at times lower than the overall gap because they do not include special write-offs, Harbour-Felax said.

    Ford, while it has made progress on cost cuts, common parts and globalization, still had a $3,939 profit gap in 2006 when compared with Toyota, Harbour-Felax said.

    Chrysler's profit gap with Toyota averaged $3,088 per vehicle for 2006 mainly because it was "force feeding" the market by selling vehicles with heavy incentives, she said.

    The labor cost difference between the Big Three and the Japanese automakers amounts to $1,200 to $1,500 per vehicle, Harbour-Felax said. Although the domestic automakers likely are to seek parity with the Japanese in ongoing contract talks with the United Auto Workers, that won't solve all of their problems because labor costs make up only about 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle, she said.

    The average price of a vehicle in the U.S. last year was $28,451, according to the National Automobile Dealers Association. "
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    I'm just not compelled with arguments to buy American anymore, because all you really are doing is rewarding years of bad financial decisions and captiulating by short sighted unions. I'm vehemently anti-big labor at this point because I believe it is destroying American industry, but the automakers have nobody to blame but themselves for giving in everytime someone threatens a strike.

    If an American product is superior to a Japanese product, I'll consider it. I can think of some instances where this is the case. Even with the new Chrysler minivans, however, I'm not sure that this segment is one of them. Right now, 07 Odysseys are running under 08 Grand Caravans, and I think the Honda is probably still the superior prodcut, so...
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    GREEDY CEO's who receive Golden Parachutes after destroying American companies are just as guilty as short sighted unions.

    I think the Ody, Sienna, T&C/GC are equally desireable. Each has advantages and disadvantages and each buyer must decide which product best fills his needs. I would like to combine the best features of each into one vehicle. :shades:
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    No Greedy CEO ever cost a company 1/1,000,000th as much as decades of bloated contracts and unproductivity.

    I get your point, but trust me, the American auto industry is not collapsing under its own weight because of greedy CEOs.

    I haven't yet driven the new GC, but I have looked at it. Perhaps I will revise my statements at some point if I do drive it, but it seems to me that it did NOT pass the Ody and Sienna. Best case, it matched them. And that's been the problem for the Big Three...when's the last time when they launched a product that actually, truly, exceeded its benchmarks on merit alone?

    I can't think of one...maybe Cadillac is doing it with the CTS right now, but that's really all I can think of. I don't think Chrysler did it in this segment. And even if they do, and they somehow are able to match the average transaction price of the Sienna and Ody, they'll still not make nearly as much money as Honda and Toyota will thanks to years of capitulation to big labor.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    I'm just not compelled with arguments to buy American anymore, because all you really are doing is rewarding years of bad financial decisions and captiulating by short sighted unions. I'm vehemently anti-big labor at this point because I believe it is destroying American industry, but the automakers have nobody to blame but themselves for giving in everytime someone threatens a strike.

    If an American product is superior to a Japanese product, I'll consider it. I can think of some instances where this is the case. Even with the new Chrysler minivans, however, I'm not sure that this segment is one of them. Right now, 07 Odysseys are running under 08 Grand Caravans, and I think the Honda is probably still the superior prodcut, so...

    There seems to be a lot of people not willing to give the American owned automakers a try again or will always believe that foreign vehicles will always be superior. I guess that is your choice. But you can always find something superior with one minivan over the other. In some ways the Honda and Toyota is superior to the Chrysler minivans. In other ways, Chrysler minivans are superior to the Honda and Toyota. I don't think we have to go over the things each one has that the other doesn't, we've discussed it many times. But when you buy American made or owned, you are creating and saving American jobs, completely out side of the automotive industry. Maybe even saving your own.

    Let me put it this way. If we sit down with a calculator and add up how many vans Toyota and Honda sells and figure out the profit they make on each one. You have to believe at least half of that profit is leaving the country, creating jobs in Japan and not in America. Not only that, but very American that has a job with the automobile industry, creates jobs outside of the auto industry. Jobs that you and I have because of them. Because these guys buy furniture, go on vacation, buy insurance, food, eat out, buys cloths, guns, etc. So even if you work for the airlines, department or furniture store, sell insurance, work for the city, county or state, these guys help give us a job. Just look at what the American auto industry can do for just one segment of our industry. It's a trickle down effect in most of our industries, not just this one.

    The U.S. auto and machine-tool industries are now in the throes of the greatest destruction of human and physical capital in American history

    http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2005/3250auto_n_nukes.html

    I just realized this should be in the (Minivan Shopping - Domestic vs. Foreign) thread and not in the 2008. So if your going to answer, that should be the place to put it.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    The engineers and penny counters who decide vehicle content are mostly responsible for poorly received vehicles...NOT those who make or assemble the various parts that go into a vehicle.

    "Bloated" and "Capitulation" are words used to incite a certain political power base by blaming the actual workers for problems instead of carefully investigating the real cause of a problem. ;)
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    I'm not talking about poorly designed vehicles, I'm talking about being hampered by excessively high labor costs. Even if a US company built a perfect minivan, that consumers flocked to and was universally heralded as the best, they'd STILL not make the same level of profit it on it than their competition because of big labor and decades of bad contracts and a culture of inefficiency.

    You are right though, this discussion should go to another thread so I'll shut up now. Though frankly, the foreign/domestic discussion is redundant to this one because the only competition thread we can have compares domestic to foreign since that's all there is--one Canadian minivan against Japanese and Korean ones.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    I see auto workers first hand - "working". I've seen them bashing electrical connectors with a crowe bar to mate them and blaming the supplier for bad product. I've seen them smoking inside vehicles at lunch, burning a leather seat and blaming the supplier. I've seen them tossing their lunch trash on the floor during lunch. I've seen workers laying around during the week, leaving early due to union rules, then coming in Sats and Sundays for overtime and tripletime!! Making way more money than what they're worth.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    2008 Minivans
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Which is the Canadian minivan and which are Japanese ones? :confuse:

    Chrysler is headquarted in the USA and T&C / GC are made in Fenton, Missouri, USA; and in Windsor, Ontario, Canada.

    Toyota is headquartered in Japan but the Sienna is made in Indiana, USA.

    Honda is headquartered in Japan but the Odyssey is made in Alabama, USA after being made in Ontario, Canada for years.
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    I've seen workers laying around during the week, leaving early due to union rules, then coming in Sats and Sundays for overtime and tripletime!! Making way more money than what they're worth.

    There is no such thing as triple-time in the auto industry. Double is as high as it gets and that's only for Sundays and holidays, when most of the plants are shut down and only maintenance personnel are working.

    I've seen much of what you're talking about in various jobs I've had over the years. I used to work at a furniture warehouse and the employees would take breaks and sit, smoke and eat on new furniture that we were trying to sell.

    I would suspect you'd encounter the same thing if you were around a Toyota plant long enough or anywhere else.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    There is no such thing as triple-time in the auto industry. Double is as high as it gets and that's only for Sundays and holidays, when most of the plants are shut down and only maintenance personnel are working.

    I don't know where you're getting your info at, but I have neighbors and friends working at plants here in Detroit and could name names, getting double and triple time. Guys getting in a 6am, driving a hilo for a few hours, then skipping out with sup's approval to got boating in the afternoon. Smoking inside an enclosed space like an SUV is wrong.

    I doubt very much Honda or Toyota would put up with that behaviour ONCE, as they're not protected by antiquated unions.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    Which is the Canadian minivan and which are Japanese ones?

    Chrysler is headquarted in the USA and T&C / GC are made in Fenton, Missouri, USA; and in Windsor, Ontario, Canada.

    Toyota is headquartered in Japan but the Sienna is made in Indiana, USA.

    Honda is headquartered in Japan but the Odyssey is made in Alabama, USA after being made in Ontario, Canada for years.

    But where is the billions of dollars in profits going? Are they staying here and creating jobs for other Americans? Does it help strengthen our dollar and cut our balance of trade?
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    But where is the billions of dollars in profits going? Are they staying here and creating jobs for other Americans? Does it help strengthen our dollar and cut our balance of trade?

    Don't forget about investment in capital, tooling, and technology. It takes a lot of time and money to develop a new vehicle...money spent on tooling new components like engines, trannys, LED lighting, seating etc....
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Which begs another question: "Where are the billions of dollars in loses coming from" when a company is losing money? :confuse:
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    I don't know where you're getting your info at, but I have neighbors and friends working at plants here in Detroit and could name names, getting double and triple time. Guys getting in a 6am, driving a hilo for a few hours, then skipping out with sup's approval to got boating in the afternoon. Smoking inside an enclosed space like an SUV is wrong

    I am a UAW employee. I'm not a production worker but we are all covered by the same national contract as far as wages are concerned. There is no such thing as triple time.

    Some workers imply that they are getting triple time on holidays because everyone gets 8 hours holiday pay, whether they work that day or not. Then, if you work that day, you get double time in addition to that. That's not the same as triple time.

    Also, if someone goes in, works a few hours and then leaves they are taken off the clock and their pay stops at that point. It's all a matter of if going boating in the afternoon is worth more than the money you'll lose by taking off work.

    I agree that smoking in a customer's vehicle is wrong. I guarantee that if a supervisor caught someone doing it in the plant I am associated with the person would get some time off. Smoking is not permitted at all inside our plant, much less a customer's vehicle.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    Which begs another question: "Where are the billions of dollars in loses coming from" when a company is losing money?

    Invester's stocks and bonds. Employee's 401-K and IRA's.

    Anyone know where all their 401-K's and IRA's are invested in?
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    Exactly. You won't see that at Honda and Toyota because the inmates aren't running the asylum.

    As for R&D, maybe some of you are finally getting it. Because of years of capitulation to big labor, the Big Three aren't able to invest the same as Toyota, Honda, and now Hyundai on R&D, and the end results are inferior products. Not to say that Detroit isn't capable of putting out decent cars, of course.

    My larger point is that fundamentally, I'm a free market guy. I've changed as I've gotten older (and I'm not old, I'm still in my 20s!) Four or five years ago, I would only buy American out of that sense of guilt. But I've been left stranded and abused (literally actually) by an American company that I finally got driven to Toyota, and I haven't looked back. I'm not longer convinced its the "right" thing to do, in fact I feel like by settling for inferiority, I'm basically enabling a flawed industry that needs drastic reformation.
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    As for R&D, maybe some of you are finally getting it. Because of years of capitulation to big labor, the Big Three aren't able to invest the same as Toyota, Honda, and now Hyundai on R&D

    It's called corporate greed. GM management complains that they are losing $1,500 per vehicle because of higher labor costs than Toyota. However, that doesn't keep the top executives at GM from averaging 250x more money per year in salary and bonuses than their average production worker.

    I read a statistic recently that said if GM would go back to the 60s, where the top executive salary was "just" 20x more than the average worker, they would turn that $1,500 loss per vehicle into a $1,000 profit.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    I'm going to carry this over to the other thread (Minivan Shopping - Domestic vs. Foreign) where it belongs. Wish they had an open forum for this.
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    The Auto News board would be the best place to start a new discussion. You might want to look through the current topics as there may be something already suitable.

    Automotive News & Views
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Note the LED pipe lighting :) Same as the new Chryslers

    future minivan
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    As of 11am, UAW is on strike against Chrysler. Likely will delay the arrival of the 2008s, so it might hit them where it hurts.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Gosh that is hideous. The outside looks like they slapped a new front end on the old Ford Aerostar! :sick:

    Plus, that only seats 6, my Sienna seats 8. This is progress?

    Mood lighting has been in many concepts before, and I doubt that would make production.

    I like the 4 DVD screens and the center console, and the 2nd row seats remind me of the LS460L's.

    I'll pass, though, too much pseudo-luxury and not enough utility.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    That does look sharp.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    YES. I may decide to buy another Toyota if they will eliminate the console between the front seats. :shades:
  • carcom2carcom2 Member Posts: 212
    It does look cool. If I were to get DVD players I actually would prefer them on the back of the headrests - easier on the neck and it doesn't interfere with the view through the rear view mirror.

    Fully reclining seats are excellent. Don't know why Chrysler doesn't have it in 2008's. They come in handy when you pull over to a rest area.

    Keep this stuff coming on this Toyota. Any idea yet on if it will be in the US?
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    Reading all the comments here, makes me more clear what I've said somewhere above. Chrysler did a stupid thing that they did not finish up competing all the way. The new minivan is beautiful, for the most part.

    What else would they need? Well, first of all, the 4.0L engine & 6-speed tranny in ALL trim levels - at least optional. (and at least optional on Touring - the best selling version, not just on Limited!)

    Second, the seating. Offer 8-passenger seating, the stow 'n' go seats should sit higher and flatter, not as angled, and so should be the 3rd row - like ALL OTHER minivans does, they give you much higher seating position and much more cargo space behind it.

    Next, comes the interior quality and some design decisions, as giving oversize a/c vents and lower the temperature controls to an unacceptable position.

    A lot of old goddies they used to offer on pre-2003 model years are still missing and haven't came back yet. Like the heated grid at the windshield wipers (many other vans have it - they copied from Chrysler!); illuminated glove box(es); illuminated ignition key ring; illuminated visor mirrors with variable brightness; and some other minor stuff. I also hate the gear selector position. The old column shifter is about 100 times more convenient and easier to use IMO.

    I do like the beautiful interior LED lighting (if you haven't seen it yet, go out and give it a look, it's beautiful); I also like that the audio controls on the steering wheel remains the same design as before, in the back of the wheel - I think it's very clever (I hate the oversized steering wheel, though, It should be a little smaller, as on Toyota/Honda vans) - I also like that they changed the trunk opening handle - not "electrical" anymore as it was before. - I also love that you can "override" the power sliding doors. No other minivan does it as good.

    I hate that with most options, you must take leather seating and/or DVD entertainment. These 2 options has to be 2 independent options IMO. Not everyone have children, and not everyone wants their children to watch DVD's or TV when traveling.

    I love the extra large interior door handles, and the "Grab Pulls" which is very good on the Chrysler - but not good on the Dodge - why did they choose different designs? I like when your fingers can go "thru" - so the tip of your fingers can touch the palm of your hand when pulling/closing the front door. I also like the numerous storage bins on the front doors. And the bigger size exterior mirrors.
  • desperatemom1desperatemom1 Member Posts: 6
    I realize that each minivan has its pros and cons. But as far as quality and best value. Which one does anyone suggest I looked at Honda, Toyota, Kia and Chevrolet Uplander.
    Please help I am so confused and should I get 2007 or will there be better prices for 2008. When is BEST time to shop for these vans

    THANKS A DESPERATE & CONFUSED MOM
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It depends on what you are looking for.

    Honda Odyssey - handles best, most like a sedan. Rides harsher than competitors. Not the cheapest out there either.

    Toyota Sienna - rides smooth, doesn't handle nearly as well as the Odyssey. Can be expensive depending on options. Fastest minivan on the market.

    Kia Sedona - Major Value here, good 3.8L V6 engine standard on all trim levels, a few cheap touches but overall an excellent contender.

    I'd avoid the Uplander. It is an outdated design based on the old Chevrolet Venture van. It is mainly relegated to rental-car lots these days.

    Take a look at the Chrysler vans too. They are new for 2008.

    Have you gone and actually sat in and tested these vans? You should do so and form your own opinions instead of using others'. My idea of comfort may not be yours.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    thegraduate gave EXCELLENT advice to which I would add "Rent one if possible so you can drive it more than the average test drive".

    Check each van in bright daylight and also at night. After looking and sitting in all minivans at the Annual Auto Show each year, we narrowed it down to Odyssey, Sienna, and T&C/GC. Two different Honda salesmen gave us the keys and told us to drive the Odyssey. :shades: (All others had the salesman go with us.)
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    Second, the seating. Offer 8-passenger seating, the stow 'n' go seats should sit higher and flatter, not as angled, and so should be the 3rd row - like ALL OTHER minivans does, they give you much higher seating position and much more cargo space behind it.

    I think the design of the stow-n-go seating is determined mostly by how they have to fit in the storage bins. I would think especially height. Not sure if that would also have to be the reason for the angle of the seat too.

    As for 8 passenger seating, not sure how that would work, unless they had a bench seat that went all the way across, which would mean redesigning the storage wells and redesigning one seat to fold over to get in the rear seats. Unless of course they did away with the storage bins. Not sure there is enough demand for eight passenger seating to do all that.

    Remember, Chrysler has to be competitive in their pricing and the imports already have over a $3,000. advantage on them in profit, per vehicle. Probably also why you don't get the bigger engine and six speed on all lines.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    I remember Chrysler doing extensive market research for 8 passenger seating and AWD, and the market wasn't there for these items. I also heard the reason for angled seating is a safety issue and keeping passengers in their seats, and kids now slipping under belts?
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    That I doubt. I'm guessing they angle the seats simply because the seats are lower to the floor and without the angle, your knees would be up in the air with zero support.
  • artgpoartgpo Member Posts: 483
    Here is a list of the latest (last week) of the most (un)reliable minivans from the largest consumer magazine, the one that does not accept advertising. I did not include the scores because I do not want to violate the copyright laws. Only the Sienna and Odyssey had good scores (the Sienna was double that of the Odyssey) all the rest were sub par. The Chrysler models were the best of the worst.

    Make and model


    Toyota Sienna
    Honda Odyssey
    ------------------------------
    Chrysler Town & Country (2007)
    Dodge Grand Caravan (2007)
    Kia Sedona
    Nissan Quest
    Hyundai Entourage*
    Chevrolet Uplander (-146%)
  • carcom2carcom2 Member Posts: 212
    I always take those magazines "ratings" with a grain of salt. My grades with my vehicles have always been higher than their category grades. Maybe that is in part due to proper maintenance - just the usual stuff, nothing overboard.
    My low mileage- 103K- '97 Grand Caravan Sport still drives great. The interior materials, seat fabric, dash are all in excellent condition. Recently replaced a 5 yr old battery. The car has not been garaged for the last 3+ yrs. Still have original engine & transmission. So, based on my actual ownership of the GC, I think it's been a great vehicle, very reliable and am strongly considering a 2008 T&C Limited over the Sienna which I drove last week. Don't like the interior of the Ody dash, so wouldn't buy it although the seats are very nice.
    You think it's just because Dodge/Chrysler has sold more minivans, that you see many more of their older vans on the road still today VS the Ody or Sienna? I occasionally see the Previa and hardly ever an old Ody.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Reliability and quality are hard to measure. Even though you might have statistics that show one vehicle is better than another, you'll always have lots of conflicting stories.

    The problem is that the measurements are always comparisons versus individual statistics. So we hear that the Odyssey is more reliable that the Caravan but not how much more or what is the difference.

    It could be that with the Odyssey, 95% of them will go to 100,000 miles with less than $1000 worth of repairs, while with the Caravan, it's only 90%. And 80% of Odysseys and only 70% of Caravans will reach 100,000 miles with less than $100 worth of repairs. In both cases you can accurately state that the Odyssey is more reliable (if only we could get such statistics like this that meant something!!). But on the other hand, you'll have 70% of Caravan owners saying, "Hey, my Caravan has been trouble-free for the past 100,000 miles, so how can you say my van isn't reliable."

    So when you see the red circles and black circles, or some other generic Good, Fair, Excellent rating you have to ask yourself what's the real difference and what percent of all vehicles we're talking about.

    You may have 3 good vehicles all close in true reliability (which I define as dollars spent over miles driven) but in a ranking there has to be a number 1 and a number 3. If someone can show me stats broken down into $$/mile, then I'd be impressed but until then, I'd just use these ratings as a guide in addition to your own experience.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Is the 3rd row of the Caravan's seat as angled as shown in this link?? Hard to imagine being able to sit in that seat and reach the table, especially for kids in booster seats. It also looks tough to climb out of that seat.

    http://www.allpar.com/model/m/2008-minivans.html
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    I know when I got my "survey" from CR a few years back, I started filling it out, gave up halfway thru and tossed it. So my completely trouble free 2005 Caravan isn't accounted for. Also, I see how fair they are every time a new issue comes out - filled with photos of japanese cars on the cover, lead of articles etc... Ohh and lets not forget the controversy a few months back when CR tested full size pickups, and got caught!!!

    When I think of it, none of my cars ever rated highly with them, but they did with me. Thinking there's no bias at CR is like news anchors being non-partisan and being able to be fair...yeah right!!!!
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    When I think of it, none of my cars ever rated highly with them, but they did with me. Thinking there's no bias at CR is like news anchors being non-partisan and being able to be fair...yeah right!!!!

    If you think they're biased, tell me what is their motive?
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    CR is NOT RECOMMENDED for purchase due to biased writing unsupported by their own research. :lemon:
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