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2008 Minivans
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I guess what Toyota offers instead is a large center console, plus you can actually get two of them - a 2nd for the middle row.
More than one way to skin a cat, I suppose.
I guess if you don't have anything big to stash, they would be fine. I have a small televesion, battery cables, blanket, tape, a few tools. tie straps, first aid kit and a couple of boxes of tissues in one of my bins. The other bin has the seat in it, as I usually keep it stowed for the dog to set on, or when I carry something heavy, I don't want to lift it up in the tail gate. But if you just want to use it as a people hauler, two consoles should do just fine. I just hate having anything laying out in my van. I had to do that with my truck, but no more.
As I said before, buying American made and owned, helps all Americans, not just the people making the vehicles. It strengthens our dollar, that's been losing value like crazy. It creates jobs in all the other industries. It cuts our balance of trade, etc. To see that America no longer owns the majority of our own market is really disheartening. We have lost so many jobs to foreign countries, it's hard to try and maintain the middle class in this country anymore.
Based on reading elsewhere, I think Daimler was responsible for destroying the formerly very attractive door panels and seats on Chrysler minivans in addition to killing Plymouth and watering down the CHRYSLER nameplate.
My sister's 1986 Caravan SE had VERY Nice, Attractive door panels and VERY NICE seats. A base 2001-2007 SE became an "el-cheapo" that looks like it was made by Daewoo, Yugo, or Trabant.
Have you tried the front seats of the new Chrysler? On my 2005, my wife has a hard time even reaching the floor. On the new one, it sits differently and she finds it very comfortable. As for the middle Stow-N-Go, they are still slanted, but Swivel-N-Go are much nicer. Don't compare the old seats with the new ones except Stow-N-Go. They are different.
Based on reading elsewhere, I think Daimler was responsible for destroying the formerly very attractive door panels and seats on Chrysler minivans in addition to killing Plymouth and watering down the CHRYSLER nameplate.
My sister's 1986 Caravan SE had VERY Nice, Attractive door panels and VERY NICE seats. A base 2001-2007 SE became an "el-cheapo" that looks like it was made by Daewoo, Yugo, or Trabant.
They did take a lot off the newer ones (2005 0n) but it wasn't just the fault of Daimler. American manufactures are fighting a up hill battle with foreign makes.
"It's been hard for Chrysler and American automotive manufactures to compete with the advantages the foreign makers have in profit. They can't put as much in R/D into their vehicles. Foreign makers here are not paying the health care for retirees. Have thousands fewer retirees to pay for. Not paying as much in health care, because their employees are younger. Got many of their new plants at big tax discounts to bring them into these states. Pay lower wages."
Japanese widen profit gap over U.S. automakers
Associated Press
August 8, 2007
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Digg Del.icio.us Facebook Furl Google Newsvine Reddit Spurl Yahoo Print Single page view Reprints Reader feedback Text size: TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. - Japanese automakers widened their profit-making gap over the Big Three domestic automakers last year by 31 percent, according to a study released Tuesday.
The profit gap, which already was significant in 2005 at $2,899 per vehicle sold in North America, widened by $915, to $3,814, according to a study of industry costs and profits by Laurie Harbour-Felax, managing director of Stout Risius Ross, a Chicago-based financial and operational advisory firm.
The study, made public at an automotive industry conference, found that while General Motors Corp. had improved its efficiency and cut production costs, the nation's largest automaker and its Detroit counterparts, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, still have a long way to go to match the profits of Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co.
GM cut its loss per vehicle in North America to $146 in 2006 from $1,271 in 2005, largely because of cost cuts that included the departure of more than 34,000 hourly workers to buyout and early retirement offers. It also is saving money on efforts to design cars and trucks globally, by increasing the number of parts common to all of its vehicles and by purchasing parts on a global basis, Harbour-Felax said.
"GM has done the most from this as you look at their whole product lineup," she said.
Still, GM made $2,123 less per vehicle than Toyota in 2006, according to the report. Toyota, the most profitable of all automakers on a per-vehicle basis, increased its profit per vehicle from $1,175 in 2005 to $1,977 in 2006, the report said. The numbers for individual manufacturers are at times lower than the overall gap because they do not include special write-offs, Harbour-Felax said.
Ford, while it has made progress on cost cuts, common parts and globalization, still had a $3,939 profit gap in 2006 when compared with Toyota, Harbour-Felax said.
Chrysler's profit gap with Toyota averaged $3,088 per vehicle for 2006 mainly because it was "force feeding" the market by selling vehicles with heavy incentives, she said.
The labor cost difference between the Big Three and the Japanese automakers amounts to $1,200 to $1,500 per vehicle, Harbour-Felax said. Although the domestic automakers likely are to seek parity with the Japanese in ongoing contract talks with the United Auto Workers, that won't solve all of their problems because labor costs make up only about 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle, she said.
The average price of a vehicle in the U.S. last year was $28,451, according to the National Automobile Dealers Association. "
If an American product is superior to a Japanese product, I'll consider it. I can think of some instances where this is the case. Even with the new Chrysler minivans, however, I'm not sure that this segment is one of them. Right now, 07 Odysseys are running under 08 Grand Caravans, and I think the Honda is probably still the superior prodcut, so...
I think the Ody, Sienna, T&C/GC are equally desireable. Each has advantages and disadvantages and each buyer must decide which product best fills his needs. I would like to combine the best features of each into one vehicle. :shades:
I get your point, but trust me, the American auto industry is not collapsing under its own weight because of greedy CEOs.
I haven't yet driven the new GC, but I have looked at it. Perhaps I will revise my statements at some point if I do drive it, but it seems to me that it did NOT pass the Ody and Sienna. Best case, it matched them. And that's been the problem for the Big Three...when's the last time when they launched a product that actually, truly, exceeded its benchmarks on merit alone?
I can't think of one...maybe Cadillac is doing it with the CTS right now, but that's really all I can think of. I don't think Chrysler did it in this segment. And even if they do, and they somehow are able to match the average transaction price of the Sienna and Ody, they'll still not make nearly as much money as Honda and Toyota will thanks to years of capitulation to big labor.
If an American product is superior to a Japanese product, I'll consider it. I can think of some instances where this is the case. Even with the new Chrysler minivans, however, I'm not sure that this segment is one of them. Right now, 07 Odysseys are running under 08 Grand Caravans, and I think the Honda is probably still the superior prodcut, so...
There seems to be a lot of people not willing to give the American owned automakers a try again or will always believe that foreign vehicles will always be superior. I guess that is your choice. But you can always find something superior with one minivan over the other. In some ways the Honda and Toyota is superior to the Chrysler minivans. In other ways, Chrysler minivans are superior to the Honda and Toyota. I don't think we have to go over the things each one has that the other doesn't, we've discussed it many times. But when you buy American made or owned, you are creating and saving American jobs, completely out side of the automotive industry. Maybe even saving your own.
Let me put it this way. If we sit down with a calculator and add up how many vans Toyota and Honda sells and figure out the profit they make on each one. You have to believe at least half of that profit is leaving the country, creating jobs in Japan and not in America. Not only that, but very American that has a job with the automobile industry, creates jobs outside of the auto industry. Jobs that you and I have because of them. Because these guys buy furniture, go on vacation, buy insurance, food, eat out, buys cloths, guns, etc. So even if you work for the airlines, department or furniture store, sell insurance, work for the city, county or state, these guys help give us a job. Just look at what the American auto industry can do for just one segment of our industry. It's a trickle down effect in most of our industries, not just this one.
The U.S. auto and machine-tool industries are now in the throes of the greatest destruction of human and physical capital in American history
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2005/3250auto_n_nukes.html
I just realized this should be in the (Minivan Shopping - Domestic vs. Foreign) thread and not in the 2008. So if your going to answer, that should be the place to put it.
"Bloated" and "Capitulation" are words used to incite a certain political power base by blaming the actual workers for problems instead of carefully investigating the real cause of a problem.
You are right though, this discussion should go to another thread so I'll shut up now. Though frankly, the foreign/domestic discussion is redundant to this one because the only competition thread we can have compares domestic to foreign since that's all there is--one Canadian minivan against Japanese and Korean ones.
Chrysler is headquarted in the USA and T&C / GC are made in Fenton, Missouri, USA; and in Windsor, Ontario, Canada.
Toyota is headquartered in Japan but the Sienna is made in Indiana, USA.
Honda is headquartered in Japan but the Odyssey is made in Alabama, USA after being made in Ontario, Canada for years.
There is no such thing as triple-time in the auto industry. Double is as high as it gets and that's only for Sundays and holidays, when most of the plants are shut down and only maintenance personnel are working.
I've seen much of what you're talking about in various jobs I've had over the years. I used to work at a furniture warehouse and the employees would take breaks and sit, smoke and eat on new furniture that we were trying to sell.
I would suspect you'd encounter the same thing if you were around a Toyota plant long enough or anywhere else.
I don't know where you're getting your info at, but I have neighbors and friends working at plants here in Detroit and could name names, getting double and triple time. Guys getting in a 6am, driving a hilo for a few hours, then skipping out with sup's approval to got boating in the afternoon. Smoking inside an enclosed space like an SUV is wrong.
I doubt very much Honda or Toyota would put up with that behaviour ONCE, as they're not protected by antiquated unions.
Chrysler is headquarted in the USA and T&C / GC are made in Fenton, Missouri, USA; and in Windsor, Ontario, Canada.
Toyota is headquartered in Japan but the Sienna is made in Indiana, USA.
Honda is headquartered in Japan but the Odyssey is made in Alabama, USA after being made in Ontario, Canada for years.
But where is the billions of dollars in profits going? Are they staying here and creating jobs for other Americans? Does it help strengthen our dollar and cut our balance of trade?
Don't forget about investment in capital, tooling, and technology. It takes a lot of time and money to develop a new vehicle...money spent on tooling new components like engines, trannys, LED lighting, seating etc....
I am a UAW employee. I'm not a production worker but we are all covered by the same national contract as far as wages are concerned. There is no such thing as triple time.
Some workers imply that they are getting triple time on holidays because everyone gets 8 hours holiday pay, whether they work that day or not. Then, if you work that day, you get double time in addition to that. That's not the same as triple time.
Also, if someone goes in, works a few hours and then leaves they are taken off the clock and their pay stops at that point. It's all a matter of if going boating in the afternoon is worth more than the money you'll lose by taking off work.
I agree that smoking in a customer's vehicle is wrong. I guarantee that if a supervisor caught someone doing it in the plant I am associated with the person would get some time off. Smoking is not permitted at all inside our plant, much less a customer's vehicle.
Invester's stocks and bonds. Employee's 401-K and IRA's.
Anyone know where all their 401-K's and IRA's are invested in?
As for R&D, maybe some of you are finally getting it. Because of years of capitulation to big labor, the Big Three aren't able to invest the same as Toyota, Honda, and now Hyundai on R&D, and the end results are inferior products. Not to say that Detroit isn't capable of putting out decent cars, of course.
My larger point is that fundamentally, I'm a free market guy. I've changed as I've gotten older (and I'm not old, I'm still in my 20s!) Four or five years ago, I would only buy American out of that sense of guilt. But I've been left stranded and abused (literally actually) by an American company that I finally got driven to Toyota, and I haven't looked back. I'm not longer convinced its the "right" thing to do, in fact I feel like by settling for inferiority, I'm basically enabling a flawed industry that needs drastic reformation.
It's called corporate greed. GM management complains that they are losing $1,500 per vehicle because of higher labor costs than Toyota. However, that doesn't keep the top executives at GM from averaging 250x more money per year in salary and bonuses than their average production worker.
I read a statistic recently that said if GM would go back to the 60s, where the top executive salary was "just" 20x more than the average worker, they would turn that $1,500 loss per vehicle into a $1,000 profit.
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future minivan
Plus, that only seats 6, my Sienna seats 8. This is progress?
Mood lighting has been in many concepts before, and I doubt that would make production.
I like the 4 DVD screens and the center console, and the 2nd row seats remind me of the LS460L's.
I'll pass, though, too much pseudo-luxury and not enough utility.
Fully reclining seats are excellent. Don't know why Chrysler doesn't have it in 2008's. They come in handy when you pull over to a rest area.
Keep this stuff coming on this Toyota. Any idea yet on if it will be in the US?
What else would they need? Well, first of all, the 4.0L engine & 6-speed tranny in ALL trim levels - at least optional. (and at least optional on Touring - the best selling version, not just on Limited!)
Second, the seating. Offer 8-passenger seating, the stow 'n' go seats should sit higher and flatter, not as angled, and so should be the 3rd row - like ALL OTHER minivans does, they give you much higher seating position and much more cargo space behind it.
Next, comes the interior quality and some design decisions, as giving oversize a/c vents and lower the temperature controls to an unacceptable position.
A lot of old goddies they used to offer on pre-2003 model years are still missing and haven't came back yet. Like the heated grid at the windshield wipers (many other vans have it - they copied from Chrysler!); illuminated glove box(es); illuminated ignition key ring; illuminated visor mirrors with variable brightness; and some other minor stuff. I also hate the gear selector position. The old column shifter is about 100 times more convenient and easier to use IMO.
I do like the beautiful interior LED lighting (if you haven't seen it yet, go out and give it a look, it's beautiful); I also like that the audio controls on the steering wheel remains the same design as before, in the back of the wheel - I think it's very clever (I hate the oversized steering wheel, though, It should be a little smaller, as on Toyota/Honda vans) - I also like that they changed the trunk opening handle - not "electrical" anymore as it was before. - I also love that you can "override" the power sliding doors. No other minivan does it as good.
I hate that with most options, you must take leather seating and/or DVD entertainment. These 2 options has to be 2 independent options IMO. Not everyone have children, and not everyone wants their children to watch DVD's or TV when traveling.
I love the extra large interior door handles, and the "Grab Pulls" which is very good on the Chrysler - but not good on the Dodge - why did they choose different designs? I like when your fingers can go "thru" - so the tip of your fingers can touch the palm of your hand when pulling/closing the front door. I also like the numerous storage bins on the front doors. And the bigger size exterior mirrors.
Please help I am so confused and should I get 2007 or will there be better prices for 2008. When is BEST time to shop for these vans
THANKS A DESPERATE & CONFUSED MOM
Honda Odyssey - handles best, most like a sedan. Rides harsher than competitors. Not the cheapest out there either.
Toyota Sienna - rides smooth, doesn't handle nearly as well as the Odyssey. Can be expensive depending on options. Fastest minivan on the market.
Kia Sedona - Major Value here, good 3.8L V6 engine standard on all trim levels, a few cheap touches but overall an excellent contender.
I'd avoid the Uplander. It is an outdated design based on the old Chevrolet Venture van. It is mainly relegated to rental-car lots these days.
Take a look at the Chrysler vans too. They are new for 2008.
Have you gone and actually sat in and tested these vans? You should do so and form your own opinions instead of using others'. My idea of comfort may not be yours.
Check each van in bright daylight and also at night. After looking and sitting in all minivans at the Annual Auto Show each year, we narrowed it down to Odyssey, Sienna, and T&C/GC. Two different Honda salesmen gave us the keys and told us to drive the Odyssey. :shades: (All others had the salesman go with us.)
I think the design of the stow-n-go seating is determined mostly by how they have to fit in the storage bins. I would think especially height. Not sure if that would also have to be the reason for the angle of the seat too.
As for 8 passenger seating, not sure how that would work, unless they had a bench seat that went all the way across, which would mean redesigning the storage wells and redesigning one seat to fold over to get in the rear seats. Unless of course they did away with the storage bins. Not sure there is enough demand for eight passenger seating to do all that.
Remember, Chrysler has to be competitive in their pricing and the imports already have over a $3,000. advantage on them in profit, per vehicle. Probably also why you don't get the bigger engine and six speed on all lines.
Make and model
Toyota Sienna
Honda Odyssey
------------------------------
Chrysler Town & Country (2007)
Dodge Grand Caravan (2007)
Kia Sedona
Nissan Quest
Hyundai Entourage*
Chevrolet Uplander (-146%)
My low mileage- 103K- '97 Grand Caravan Sport still drives great. The interior materials, seat fabric, dash are all in excellent condition. Recently replaced a 5 yr old battery. The car has not been garaged for the last 3+ yrs. Still have original engine & transmission. So, based on my actual ownership of the GC, I think it's been a great vehicle, very reliable and am strongly considering a 2008 T&C Limited over the Sienna which I drove last week. Don't like the interior of the Ody dash, so wouldn't buy it although the seats are very nice.
You think it's just because Dodge/Chrysler has sold more minivans, that you see many more of their older vans on the road still today VS the Ody or Sienna? I occasionally see the Previa and hardly ever an old Ody.
The problem is that the measurements are always comparisons versus individual statistics. So we hear that the Odyssey is more reliable that the Caravan but not how much more or what is the difference.
It could be that with the Odyssey, 95% of them will go to 100,000 miles with less than $1000 worth of repairs, while with the Caravan, it's only 90%. And 80% of Odysseys and only 70% of Caravans will reach 100,000 miles with less than $100 worth of repairs. In both cases you can accurately state that the Odyssey is more reliable (if only we could get such statistics like this that meant something!!). But on the other hand, you'll have 70% of Caravan owners saying, "Hey, my Caravan has been trouble-free for the past 100,000 miles, so how can you say my van isn't reliable."
So when you see the red circles and black circles, or some other generic Good, Fair, Excellent rating you have to ask yourself what's the real difference and what percent of all vehicles we're talking about.
You may have 3 good vehicles all close in true reliability (which I define as dollars spent over miles driven) but in a ranking there has to be a number 1 and a number 3. If someone can show me stats broken down into $$/mile, then I'd be impressed but until then, I'd just use these ratings as a guide in addition to your own experience.
http://www.allpar.com/model/m/2008-minivans.html
When I think of it, none of my cars ever rated highly with them, but they did with me. Thinking there's no bias at CR is like news anchors being non-partisan and being able to be fair...yeah right!!!!
If you think they're biased, tell me what is their motive?