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USED European Luxury Cars (pre 1990)
SPORIN.Iwould rate the audi 100 as your best option.Best spec is the 2.2litre 5 cyl model. A good one from a reliable source with a service record ,moderate miles,and good body, no rust,is good for 200k miles. Better if available in US is a 200 looks like 100 but has turbo engine and is fully loaded,a really nice car .Body trim is expensive so make sure none is missing.Be fussy when buying, a nice one will hold its condition for years if looked after.In general a mutch under-rated car.
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Since Audi resale isn't that great, expect to pay a bargain price but also possibly take a beating on a resale later on. The Benz holds a much higher resale value, but you pay a lot more in the first place. You will find all German car parts expensive, including VW, so no getting around that.
You can drive the car for less per month, but it won't be getting the best care. I always have to laugh, my friends say "Oh, I don't spend that much and my car is great!" So I drive it and before I'm around the block I noticed 27 things wrong with it that they have easily come to live with that would drive me crazy..."oh, I never use the rear window, so why fix the motor?" "Rattle, what rattle?" "Do you think the muffler has a hole in it, I hadn't noticed"..."just wiggle the wiper blade, it'll kick in"....you get the idea....there's maintenance and there's MAINTENANCE...to me, give an expensive and complicated car what it needs now, or it'll ask for way more later on.
I guess the safest thing for me to do is continue leasing every 3 years. This has worked out great for me, low monthly payment, bumper to bumper warraty through the life of the lease, inexpensive servicing. I can lease a 99 Saab 9-3 locally for $299.00 per month with almost nothing down, hard to beat that.
Thanks for the info.
I didn't think you were sulking, I thought you took it very bravely.
I am more worried about getting stranded somewhere. This will be our only car and I don't want to worry about my wife if she is out driving. Obviously, I am not expecting Accord/Camry reliability, but shouldn't a well maintained 7-10 year old Audi be mechanically realiable?
Again, thanks for all the good info, I want to make sure I am going into this with all the information I can.
I like Audi a lot and I KNOW the the press was full of B.S.about the 5000 here in the States. M.B. just had the fortune of making boat loads of cash off the [non-permissible content removed] so that they've been able to dominate the world market for German automobiles ever since.
I personally love driving huuuuuge older American automobiles on a daily basis but I think that oldr Audi's are really good buys. I like the lack of driver feel for the road in American land barges but I admire Germans for their superior quality engineering. I've spent well over $200/ month keepeng my old Cads and Lincolns on the road so I see $100 as reasonable.
Compare a 15-20 year old Japanese car and with a similar German auto of that era and you tell mee who made a better car.
Japanese cars aren't my cup of tea, but they did crush the American car industry in the 1970s, ...beat 'em up bad...and quality had something to do with it. The Germans didn't sweat the Japanese until the Lexus came out, I think, and then they really starting worrying, for good reason.
Look at the 1st gen Lexus LS400. It is nearly a blatant copy of the 1981-91 S-Class Mercedes. No telling where they got their design parameters from, right?
Host
the 450SEL 6.9 was made from 1975-80, and about 7400 were made. It has 286 DIN hp and 405 ft lbs of torque at 3000 rpms, so it's a "puller", no doubt about it. Fuel consumption would be about 14 miles per US gallon.
The question as to whether to buy one or not depends on your ability to pay the upkeep. This is a sophisticated and complicated car, with a hydro-pneumatic suspension incorporating nitrogen gas and hydaulic oil in spherical chambers at each wheel. The engine is an improved version of the 6.3 unit found in the Mercedes 600 limousines. Given this, your repairs will be very, very expensive. On the plus side, you can buy them cheap in the US ($10,000 should do it, plus whatever costs to ship, etc, another $2K I'd guess). Also, I'd imagine US cars to be in better condition than the European versions, and more desireable even if a tad slower.
You can see from above that these cars are NOT worth restoring and have no real collectible value. All they are is a great cheap ride. So the strategy is to buy the best one you can and keep it that way. Attempting to fix or restore this car is sheer folly and I strongly discourage you from doing so. But if you found a nice one at a good price, you could drive a wonderful "sleeper" that will beat the pants off many a modern and very expensive car of today.
Your call therefore, and be careful. Great cars, but certainly risky if the cards don't fall your way.
echapman1, I've found the old 116 body MB sedans an extremely durable, solid, long lasting model. I currently have a 280SE, which is mildly powered compared to the V8's. One warning though, look for the best car you can find-there out there-overall repairs can be expensive. Make sure everything works, and works good, especially the environmental controls and vacuum system. A set of FACTORY manuals is a necessity if you do your own repairs, an illustrated parts breakdown is also handy, but you can probably do without it.
I'd say forget this scheme entirely, and buy yourself an Austin Mini and be done with it, and sell it before you come home. This really makes the most sense. Anything you can find there you can find here for less and it better shape.
I' a firm believer in driving the kind of car the country you're in makes, because they know how to fix them and have all the parts.
I was thinking of an MB 300SD because of fuel prices in Europe...an MB 6.9 at 14 mpg @ $4/gal approximately is $4 for 14 miles...yikes! Even $3 for 14 miles is a killer...seems to me at .25 cents a mile you could hire an economy car and come out all right in the long run.
Sorry to take up so much of the groups time with this, however, your time and expertise were much appreciated. Thanks, EWC
I made several comments in the sedans topic earlier this year when I first bought my 1981 MB 300SD about it's dismal power. I liked the car otherwise, and (somewhat) on my recommendation, a friend bought one very similar to mine -- except that his engine had been rebuilt 80k miles ago (mine is still original at 230k).
I asked him what he thought about the power. "Seems OK. I've got to watch it when I pass someone on the highway. It'll cruise past 80 real easy."
Surely he's kidding, I thought! I'll ask his wife. She'll tell me the truth. "Seems OK" she said.
I just couldn't take the mystery, so I asked him if I could drive it around the block. He said "sure". Then, with about 550 lbs of passengers inside, I took the wheel. To my surprise, his car drove like a gasoline powered car. Surely it had twice the power mine has.
A local Mercedes shop told me that my car has typical power for a car with "that many miles on it." Another mechanic friend told me that diesels are VERY sensitive to performance loss due to blow-by. I assume he's right.
So here's my point. My mechanic friend says he has re-built 3 of these engines before, and has offered to re-ring mine for 20 hours of labor charge. From the gas engines I've rebuilt, that seems reasonable. We'll leave the engine in the car, just yank the head (and have it done separately), pull the pistons, hone the cylinders (hopefully that's all), replace the rings and put it back together. Don't fool with the bearings except to check them (and of course, make sure we keep grit off them during cylinder honing).
Two questions:
1: Since you used to work on these things, do you have any particular cautions about this plan?
2: What do you think of zero gap rings as a replacement for OEM. In theory, that seems like the way to go. As each of the ring segments wear and the end gap opens, the ring segment above or below it is there to make sure no leakage occurs. I'm old enough to know however that theory and reality don't always coincide.
What do you think?
ojl
And aren't you going to do a valve job? That means expensive machine shop work, and very expensive parts prices.
I guess if the car is really really nice otherwise, it may be worth it, but you and the mechanic should plan a budget and also some "what if?" scenarios, where you just might want to stop and button up the engine and leave it like it was. If you end up putting $5,000 in the engine, you might be able to find a nice replacement car for that amount.
So I'd say plan this thing out and keep your eyes open and you'll be okay no matter what you do.
So you don't have an opinion on the zero-gap rings? I thought perhaps from your racing days you might have had some experience with them and...
ojl
I don't see how a head could be rebuilt for $200 though. Just the guides alone is a pretty big job, then there's cleaning and magnafluxing (check for cracks) and planing and new guides and seals and labor for all that plus a gasket set...I'd say more like $600....but maybe I'm thinking California prices here.
When it comes to opening up old engines, I am genetically disposed to thinking the worst possible scenario, so don't mind me.
Basically, your plan is sound enough and with any luck you should do fine. You just need to think about things like this: Okay, the mechanic pulls the head and sees that your valve are wobbling in the guides, so they won't hold a seal very well, which means you'll have blow-by and new valves won't seat all that well, so less power over time....hm...do you press in all new guides or ?????. And do you plane the head flat or just slam it back on? And gee, aren't you going to re-core the radiator to better cool that "new", "tight" and friskier engine? And what about new belts and hoses while you're in there?
So you see what I mean....how much do you want to accomplish and for how long?
However, they are a luxurious well-built car--more of a GT car than a true sports car. You can't hardly beat Mercedes build quality no how.
Of course, I trust you won't mind if I slighly shake the Mercedes mythology by warning you to have this car checked out thoroughly, as no car made by human beings or the robots who obey them will ever build a totally trouble-free car. And in the case of a Benz, you don't want to be replacing major components, as the cost will kill you.
So choose a well-maintained car with a known history. If a fast luxury cruiser, a "gentleman's express", is what you want, as opposed to a lean and mean sports machine, this car is an excellent choice.
I instead opted for an Audi S4. With 250 hp, it'll give me all the oomph I'm after. First I went to the local (Palo Alto) dealership, and dealt with first being completely ignored, then getting lots of attitude from its sales staff. They made it seem like they were doing me a huge favor by allowing me to pay $2,500 over MSRP for this car. Yeah, there's a long waiting list, but they promised they'd call if a cancelled order ever came in.
Instead I got a brochure off the shelf, went home, and ordered the car from carsdirect.com. The long wait is still there, but no car salesman's attitude to deal with. Your assistance was invaluable--perhaps I'll be able to buy a NEW SL someday. Thanks again.
Anyway, re the Benz 280SE coupe/cabrio, do the expense issues apply as much as the 6.9 u speak of here? Were'nt the '70-'71s more hand-built than earlier models? But, does this issue apply mainly to the fit/finish of the cabin and not the mechanics? does the hand-built issue apply to sedans of the same era? do u think the 3.5 engine would be a better buy ($ aside) vs. the other inline 6s as far as cost and reliability?
Thanks for your obviously knowledgeable responses.
BB
That being said, by 1970 Mercedes had a lot more experience with making reliable cars (again, not the same as build quality, which was always pretty high with Benz), so the little V-8s aren't as difficult or prone to trouble as the big Eights were in the 600 class cars of the 1960s & early 70s. Less complicated, to be sure.
But you can still drop a bundle into a 3.5 coupe or cabriolet, since parts are expensive and labor isn't cheap, and with a car like that you want things done well--you're not going to put a vinyl top on it that looks like it came of a '64 Mustang, and the upholstery (which is often NOT leather but looks like it) also needs to be done tightly and neatly...a kit won't work.
So to restore a 3.5 well you have to pay for a lot of custom work done by specialists. The local gas station shouldn't rebuild the engine, either, because tolerances are much tighter than domestics, and tragic mistakes can be made.
But I like these cars because they are perfectly modern and can be used daily, unlike many of the earlier Benzes, which are marginal on today's highways.
Thanks in advance to anyone that can give me any guidance.
A $10K car would be a bit of a rat. Most clean 280SLs you see driven on the street are $16K-18.5K cars in real money. Top quality show cars can bust $30K.
Still an appreciating collectible car that will stay ahead of the collector market in general. More valuable than the earlier 250 or 230SL, or the later 350 and 450SL V-8s.
Mercedes 6.9 . It is in pretty rough shape,has
215,400 miles on it. The body is straight,but does
have some rust.It runs,though the starter is inop
right now.It would need a total restoration. It
is a German market car,brought here to the U.S. as
a "grey-market" car. Does anyone have any ideas?
In my opinion, this car is ready to donate parts to better automobiles of its type.