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Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon Hybrid

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    Let me interject an alternative for those that are considering this GM hybrid. For a few dollars less you can get a Mercedes GL320 CDI. It is documented to get 27+ MPG on the highway. It will tow 1500lbs more than the hybrid. The GM hybrid is rated at a low 6000 lbs. You are getting a proven technology in the Mercedes diesel. I could do all the math. I will leave that to those that are interested enough. 25% increase in economy over the hybrid and about 35% increase over a ICE only Denali.

    The Mercedes is built in the USA for those that are worried about our auto industry. And the Mercedes has more leg room in the second row.
  • fshifshi Posts: 57
    hybrid Tahoe has a 6.0L v8, leather seating, sunroof, NAV-DVD, running board standard. MSRP 50K
    traditional Tahoe has a 5.3L v8. MSRP 36K.

    I would assume upgrade 5.3->6.0 is 1.5K,
    Leather seating 1.5K,
    Sunroof: 1K
    NAV-DVD 4K.
    running board 0.5K.
    TaxCredit ??K

    It is reasonable to pay 5K premium for a Tahoe Hybrid.

    Tahoe 21/22 MPG,
    Mercedes GL 320 CDI 18/24 MPG, 3-5k more than Tahoe comparable MPG, and less capable.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,815
    "For a few dollars less you can get a Mercedes GL320 CDI."

    Not for sale (new) in CARB states.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    Not sure where you got your mileage figures. The Tahoe hybrid is listed with 20/20 MPG the GL320 CDI has a window sticker of 20/25 MPG. I have a friend that drove his to San Diego and calculated every tank. He averaged 27.9 MPG for the trip from Oregon. Sadly they are not for sale new in CARB states. So the price for used ones here is outrageous.

    Edmunds has the Tahoe Hybrid with an MSRP of $52,395. Add a sunroof and rear entertainment and the TMV is $55,246.

    That aside you lose 1900 lbs of towing capacity with the hybrid over the regular Denali. That would be the closest apples to apples comparison. That is about $5k difference. The loaded Denali has a TMV of $49,970.

    Something I noticed. The new hybrid still uses the old 4 speed auto instead of the 6 speed that is in the Denali. That seems strange.
  • fshifshi Posts: 57
    2008 EPA Rating: Tahoe Hybrid 21/22, Mercedes 18/24 (2008 rating is about 10% lower than 2007). More info can be found in the following article.

    What Do Tahoe, Camry Have In Common?
    Chicago Tribune

    By Jim Mateja

    Dec. 16, 2007

    The Toyota Camry sedan and Chevy Tahoe SUV have something in common.

    Nope, not four-wheel-drive security or three rows of seats to hold seven or the ability to tow 6,200 pounds. Only Tahoe does that.

    The two share a 21 rating in city mileage. Surprise!

    Camry makes that with its 2.4-liter, 4-cylinder gas engine; Tahoe with its 6-liter, V-8 gas engine teamed with a battery pack that's new for 2008.

    Folks either have to start calling Tahoe fuel efficient or Camry a gas guzzler.

    Tahoe, of course, also offers a V-8 that swills a gallon every 14 miles while Camry offers a hybrid that sips a gallon in 40 miles. But the mileage rating on the Tahoe hybrid and 4-cylinder Camry show it's not easy to base a vehicle's mileage merits based solely on size.

    We tested the 2008 Tahoe hybrid that goes on sale in January. Chevy took no chances you wouldn't recognize it by plastering "Hybrid" decals on the doors and rear window and "Hybrid" badges on front and rear quarter panels

    Tahoe is a splendid SUV with lap-of-luxury ride that smoothes the ripples and dimples in the road. It's like strapping yourself into your favorite easy chair.

    Standard stability control with traction control, anti-lock brakes, side-curtain air bags and a camera to see what's behind when backing up cover all the safety bases.

    Seats are wide and well cushioned, controls at your fingertips and flip-and-fold second-row seats provide a wide aisle to the third row, where, sadly, room is tight and which leave precious little space for more than a couple small duffel bags in back. At least the seat backs fold flat to provide cargo room even if it costs you a couple passengers.

    But where Tahoe stands out is its dual-mode hybrid power. The Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu sedans and Saturn Vue crossover offer a mild hybrid that shuts off the engine when coasting or sitting at the light.

    Child's play to Tahoe, which starts in gas mode, can drive at up to 32 m.p.h. on batteries before switching back to gas and gets a battery assist to pass, merge or climb. As a bonus, the 6-liter, 320-horsepower V-8 has active fuel management that shuts off 4 cylinders when cruising.

    To keep the driver in the loop, there's an "economy" gauge in the instrument panel with a solid green (green, get it?) line at 12 o'clock. If you don't stand on the accelerator, zip into and out of traffic and lead-foot the gas pedal, the needle stays at "noon" for optimum mileage.

    Another gauge under the tachometer in the IP shows instant mileage as well as whether in V-8 or V-4 mode. Activate the menu on the navigation screen and press "hybrid" and a schematic appears showing when in gas, batteries, or both, or, like the mild hybrid, when the gas engine shuts off.

    The gauges are more fun and informative than watching a map plot your two-block progress.

    But what better way to learn conservation than to practice waste. So we stood on the pedal and watched as the gauges and schematic showed we were getting 2 m.p.g on the way to 60 m.p.h. down the merge lane to Interstate 94 in V-8 mode.

    Once secure in the right lane and using the aluminum foot rather than lead, fuel economy varied between 24 and 28 m.p.g. in 4-cylinder mode. If it weren't for the digital display, we would never have suspected 4 rather than 8 cylinders were working. No sudden feeling that a chute just opened.

    Next test was side roads, where we were able to ride in battery mode up to 27 m.p.h. in a 25 zone. Chevy says a top speed of 32 m.p.h. is possible in battery mode on flat roads. We settled for 27 m.p.h. for about half a mile on a wavy road.

    Reaching 32 m.p.h. for a mile without burning a molecule of gas also was impossible because a minivan rode our bumper to make it known that speed limits, fuel conservation, global warming and the kids' safety were secondary to getting them to school by 9 a.m.

    Thanks to the gauges and schematics, Tahoe taught that high mileage takes more than a bunch of batteries and shutting off 4 cylinders. Add in light pedal pressure; flat roads (a 35 m.p.g. reading on a long, flat stretch); coasting, which brought 49 m.p.g. downhill; and fellow motorists who don't mind a vehicle puttering along at 27 m.p.h.

    One suggestion for Chevy: A small digital speedometer in the IP and devote the extra space devoted to incorporating the hybrid gauges/schematic into one big display. Seeing what wastes or conserves gas encourages habits that save it.

    The 2WD Tahoe rated at 14 m.p.g. city/20 m.p.g. highway starts at about $38,000; the 4WD rated at 14/20 at about $39,000. The 2WD hybrid rated at 21/22 starts at $49,590; the 4WD rated at 20/20 at $50,045.

    So up to 7 m.p.g. more for about $10,000 more. Not really since such popular items as navi system, back-up camera, leather seats, power pedals and running boards are standard. But Chevy won't break out the price premium.

    Micky Bly, director of hybrid vehicles for GM, says the Cadillac Escalade SUV and Chevy Silverado/GMC Sierra pickups are next up for the dual-mode technology in 2009.
  • bboozebbooze Posts: 34
    Are you suggesting that dealers are not going to be willing to deal on these things? It looks like the 3LT is the comparable "gas-only" Tahoe and that lists for about $10k less and I've seen people claim they've gotten upwards of $10k off that list price. So say I negotiate a 3LT down from an MSRP of $43k (for 4WD) to a final price of $35k, do you think it would be reasonable for me to expect that I'd be able to talk down a $53k MSRP Hybrid down to $45k?
  • bboozebbooze Posts: 34
    Spoke to a dealer who said these things are going at MSRP - and that's it. No 'play' like there would be for the non-hybrid Tahoes.

    Does this sound right? I guess it's possible/likely given that this is being rolled out in limited numbers but just want to see if anyone has been told different.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    2008 EPA Rating: Tahoe Hybrid 21/22, Mercedes 18/24 (2008 rating is about 10% lower than 2007).

    You are comparing a 2WD Tahoe Hybrid to AWD in the GL320. Not that it makes much difference. I guess we will see if it lives up to the hype. Being an early adopter of GMC hybrid technology I am skeptical. I also know people that get 22 MPG on the highway with the Tahoe 5.3L V8. So not any gain on the highway. The non-hybrid Tahoe with 5.3 V8 is rated to tow 8200 lbs. So you give up a lot more than the $10 grand buying into the GM hybrid.
  • talked to my dealer today loaded hybrid with roof 53,000 loaded ltz 54,000
    ltz has 20"rims hybrid 18" rims supposidly the hybrid will be dealer allocated and shipped from a central location my dealer will discount and also accept GM supplier discount. He told me if they don't discount they feel that there will not be a lot sold since they want to get a jump on the Chrysler Aspen comes later in the year at approx 5,000 less than the tahoe.
  • fshifshi Posts: 57
    two mode hybrid yields like 50% fuel economy gain for city 10-15% gain on highway with electric assist. EPA rating has a normal distribution. It is likely to find some traditional tahoes to have better highway MPGs than hybrid Tahoe, but that is not representative. 10% highway fuel economy gain is statistically significant, with everything else being the same. I agree with you that we will see if it lives up to the hype. But I bet it will win the NA truck of the year title.
  • bboozebbooze Posts: 34
    >

    Okay....well, I guess that's just what it would cost. Seems like a big leap though when you consider that you could probably get a loaded 3LT for about $35k or less but the hybrid is going at MSRP no matter what. So the reality is that there is almost a $20k difference between the hybrid and regular Tahoe with nearly the same options. Suddenly I'm feeling less enthusiastic... :( :(
  • galvanggalvang Posts: 156
    I happy to see that the President took no hesitation in signing the new energy security bill. It brings in many new laws to insure our country is a leader in the new alternative energies for the environment, our economic well being, and for our security. Though, the bill is not perfect but it is a start for our energy independence.

    Personally I like President Bush even though I don't agree eye to eye on every issue. I do respect him. The congress and him should be congratulated for this bill.

    Pricing for the NoN-Hybrid Tahoe

    If you surf into the www.Carsdirect.com it will list out the Tahoes price which is really deeply discounted about $5k from MSRP.
  • the regular tahoe with the 3lt msrp is 43075.00 there is a 1750.00 rebate now with possibly another 1000.00 rebate coming soon thats a 2750.00 rebate on regular tahoes. talked to a rep in rochester today and they are going to make approximately 10 to 15 thousand hybrid units and will be dealer allocated on sold units. I am spoiled and want mine loaded. with these rebates I may just buy the regular tahoe since I dont want to wait. the reason they are making a small amount of hybrids is if something goes wrong later they will only have to recall a few units and not a whole slew of them.
  • bboozebbooze Posts: 34
    "the reason they are making a small amount of hybrids is if something goes wrong later they will only have to recall a few units and not a whole slew of them."

    That's not very encouraging. So it's full MSRP and Chevy doesn't have a ton of confidence in the quality. No thanks.
  • fortopfortop Posts: 239
    I have routinely achieved 20 mpg city//22 mpg highway with a base 4.8L Tahoe LS 2WD with a 3.23 rear axle ratio and a very conservative driving style. So, aside from a "Look at me - I'm green" factor, there is no benefit to buying a hybrid Tahoe or Yukon. This base Tahoe can be had for $27/28K - so the difference is more than $10K in purchase price (more options in the hybrid acknowledged).

    GM should be commended for this hybrid attempt - it may lead them to true hybrid efficiency someday. But, anytime you fork over more than $10K cash upfront (or finance it) you lose opportunity cost of the money (e.g. 4%+ invested in a conservative CD) which most calculations ignore. Bottom line, it will cost you many thousands of dollars to look green and you could accomplish the same thing by just driving cautiously.
  • galvanggalvang Posts: 156
    Wow, you must have a featherfoot vs lead one. The LS sounds interesting. But I need the extra power for towing. Whats interesting is your price of 28K which pins the hybrid almost twice as much than the LS. Yea, green initially will be expensive but eventually they'll get it down as with Toyota.

    Gagrice pointed out the Mercedes GL320 CDI which is a good alterantive for gas mileage. Only issue is that it is not a clean diesel.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    The LS sounds interesting. But I need the extra power for towing.

    That is a major problem with the GM Tahoe Hybrid. It has a MUCH lower towing capacity than the regular Tahoe with the 5.3L V8. The 4WD hybrid is rated at 6000 lbs and the 2WD at 6200 lbs vs 7500 lbs for the regular Tahoe.

    PS
    I am sure that is the reason Toyota has limited their hybrids to small CUVs. The Lexus RX400h is only good for a utility, small boat or tent trailer towing.

    The GL320 CDI is clean enough for me. It puts out less GHG than any vehicle in its class including the new GM hybrid.
  • galvanggalvang Posts: 156
    The GL320 CDI is clean enough for me. It puts out less GHG than any vehicle in its class including the new GM hybrid.

    HMM, maybe I'll do a little investigation. Funny, I was out doing some last minute christmas shopping a few hours ago and drove by the Mercedes dealer. I was going to stop by and pick up a brochure however the lights were out and the dealer was closed. I was thinking of this very same thread as I drove by.

    The only drawback with a Mercedes its a little bit of a "chicky" vehicle for me. Around here it may not be appropriate. That's why I like the Audi, it's a bit more tougher and masculine at the same time with a little class. My only need is 6K Lbs for towing. I'll still check out the GL320 CDI. Appreciate the info.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Yes. These initially are not intended for the general public. They are not intended for the hagglers and sharpies. They are intended for those who are expecting to pay about $50K for their next Tahoe/Yukon. These would be the 3LT or LTZ buyers.

    Since there will only be 10000 made the first year they will be parcelled out to those who will 'represent GM' the best. The buyer applies to GM to get one and if approved it's shipped from a central inventory.

    Now at some time in the near future the after the technology has been 'market approved' it will migrate down to the other trim levels. At some further time in the future after the R&D has been amortized the true differential should be in the $3000-$5000 range.
  • fortopfortop Posts: 239
    Yup. It is mostly the 3.23 rear axle that accounts for the improved gas mileage, but that is not good for heavy towing. What exactly are you towing that is so heavy? Over 5000# and I think a 3/4 ton vehicle is the better choice. If I towed a lot I would look into a Gear Vendor splitter to improve gas mileage - but that actually has the effect of reducing the final drive ratio anyway.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    Most two axle toy haulers are rated at a minimum 7000 lbs. People load them down with all their gear and probably go over that most of the time. Every weekend Interstate 8 is a steady stream of these trailers headed to the sand dunes at Glamis and Buttercup. Most use diesel PU trucks to pull their trailers. I don't think a hybrid will ever make the mark.

    I was responding to a poster that expected the higher powered Tahoe Hybrid to be a more capable tow vehicle. Instead it is inferior. I have had nearly 5000lbs on my 3500 lb 5x8 utility trailer. I only went the 3 miles from Home Depot. Never got over 30 MPH. Trailers can be deceiving.
  • bboozebbooze Posts: 34
    I've noticed in the pictures for the hybrid Tahoe that the word "HYBRID" is plastered all over the vehicle, particularly on the top of the front windshield and back window. There are also "Hybrid" badges on the front and sides. Does anyone know if owners will be able to remove the 'Hybrid' decals off of the front and back windows?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    Who would want to after paying an extra $10 grand for those stickers?
  • I am in the market for an '03-'05 Tahoe with less than 30k on the ticker.
  • bboozebbooze Posts: 34
    Has anyone actually heard of the Tahoe hybrid being delivered to any dealerships. I have inquiries in with five different places and they all say they expect them in late January but here we are and I have not heard word one from them in weeks. Seems to me that Chevy is really dropping the ball here as they had commercials out all last summer saying "Coming this fall.." and here we are in the dead of winter and nothing. Makes me think this technology is just not ready for primetime.
  • Our dealer in East Texas had a demonstration model Yukon only (not available for sale) delivered yesterday. My information below concerns the Yukon model, but the Tahoe version should be the same.

    We were told that only about 600 are built and on the ground in Arlington, and that is all that will be built for the 2008 model year.

    The current inventory can't be sold or delivered until the mechanics at the dealerships have been trained. They said delivery is expected after the training within the first quarter 2008. Our particular dealership's lead mechanic was trained last week. That may be why they got their demo model.

    Then, each dealer will only get 4 Hybrids. We have ordered the first one in our city, and are not sure yet if it will be exactly what we want in regards to color, sunroof and DVD.....or if we will just get to choose between the 4 that the dealer gets.

    I'm not sure where you are located, but we have been contacting dealers since last November and feel confident that our dealer knows what they are talking about.
  • bboozebbooze Posts: 34
    I really appreciate the response. Your information actually makes sense...train the mechanics before you release the products. I'm thinking I might just abandon this Tahoe Hybrid idea until the next model year. It seems that by the time this thing really is rolled out and ready to go will be mid-year, at which point you're only a little bit away from the '09 models coming out.

    I must say I'm really disappointed with how GM has handled this launch. As I mentioned in my original post, they said this vehicle would be released last fall per the slew of commercials I kept hearing on the radio about it. I'm jammed up on a lease I have as I only have 1000 miles left on a Passat whose lease does not expire until November.
  • I'm in Hawaii this week on business, but my husband got to drive the demo model.
    He was really pumped about it and said the transition from electric to gas was smooth and quiet. He said the power was great and the electronic dash kept him informed as to what power was being used. He said the engine was extremely quiet. He emailed pictures to me and the front is definitely more aerodynamically designed.

    He is a dedicated MOPAR guy, but is excited about the hybrid since it is a collaboration between GM and Chrysler. The Dodge Dakota's are supposed to have the same electric/gas engineering.

    We were told delivery will be between now and March 31st. We weren't sure if the delivery was dependent on the mechanics being trained at our particular dealership or if every dealership had to be trained first. Once our dealer finds that out we should have a delivery date.

    Being a woman, my big decision is the color! The only colors available are black, steel grey, birch grey, sonoma red and white.

    The only options available besides color are the different engines, a sunroof or a DVD player.

    And as for the HYBRID decals, we understand that they are on there for the demo models and something that either will NOT come on the purchased model, or at least be something that can be easily removed.
  • bboozebbooze Posts: 34
    Thank you very much. That's exactly what I was looking for - some real information!

    Hopefully these things get rolled out soon!
  • jntjnt Posts: 316
    GM plans to use Li-ion battery on the Model 2010 Chevy Volt, not on the 2008 SUV and Pick-up trucks.

    Toyota 's main supplier (PANASONIC Battery Group) has tried unsucessfully to adapt the same Li-ion used in laptop for vehicles. That did not go well since this thing is fire prone. GM selected different type of Li-on from different Battery suppliers. Several months back, Toyota and Honda said that Li-on was not suitable for Plug-in hybrid applications. Then in last month, Toyota changed their tune and announced that they will introduce Plug-in hybrid using Li-ion battery. A lot of new developments on Li-ion battery technology. Even Exxon Mobil Chemical group announced recently they has developed a new barrier material that could prevent fire or heat runaway condition in Li-on battery

    So stay tuned

    jt
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