Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Is Lexus The Standard of the World?
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Not planning on keeping any cars (especially luxury brand cars) longer than the warranty period.
bad luck in the past? what are you buying? are you leasing?
gagrice is doing what many think is very fiscally sound. if you need a new ride ever so often, well then good for you. but there are a number of makes and models that yield excellent dependable service well past a decade (look his is pushing two).
i'm not trying to preach, but that isn't the way to win economically. we tend to be so disposable-centric. perhaps we are lowering our expectations of vehicle manufacturers. shame on us.
That is why I'm hanging on to my 1988 Buick Park Avenue for as long as I can.
PS
I forgot Buick has a good longterm reliability.
That's the beauty of Lexus. Mercedes luxury and amenities (toys) coupled with Toyota reliability. :shades:
DrFill
Maybe when they have more models to choose from in each class, better driving experience and sell around the world then they MIGHT be considered.
But until then, they are a great brand for the U.S. market.
LOL Now if only the car drove with as much passion as his post! lol
Time will tell, but I think they'll have to make more styles & better driving experience for that to happen.
I'm not so sure about that. I see plenty of older late 80's Merc's & Bimmers on the road. Many of them still look very good. Compare them to cars of te same year and they look atrocious. Many of those older cars are well over 200k miles & still going strong.
I am not sure about this new twin turbo 6 cylinder engine. Turbos are great and all but I figure they have to take a huge chunk out of the engine's life.
Are those v-12's? That goes w/o saying those will be more expensive. But like U said, the base models are considered "bulletproof." And they still look good 20 years later and run very well in many cases compared to newer cars.
http://my750.com/repairs.htm
But, the premise of this forum is incorrect. Lexus hasn't been #1 in JD Powers IQS survey for two straight years now. Porsche is. JD Powers
So, if anyone here is considering buying an SC430, may I suggest you at least try the 911. They are neck and neck in reliability, but the latter will give you more driving excitement in 30 seconds than the SC430 will give you in 20 years. If you really can't handle that much excitement, buy the 911 and have yourself castrated. You will still be ahead of the SC430.
There is no one standard of world, it depends on what you are look for. Different manufacturers excel at different things.
The Germans have learned how to make the technology work,and have more reliable cars to show for it.
Lexus is currently learning those lessons.
The old MBs I see are almost all diesels, which seem to come out of the woodwork at the first sign of high gas prices. Here in Dallas, there are very few 80s BMWs, and I know they sold a ton of them here at the peak of the yuppie 'thing', so they don't seem to have survived well.
-Rocky
I would contend that, until recently, Lexus was pitifully behind other "premium" brands in engine technology. The dinosaur 4.5 liter V8 that they used in the LX450 was just one example. About 12 years old when it was retired, it had 4.5 liters of displacement, a weakling 230hp and crappy gas mileage. Most of their other engines were simply Toyota engines that dated, in some cases, back to the 1980's with modest changes. If you look at BMW's valvetronic technology development or Honda/Acura's V-tech engine development, Lexus engines were an embarassment by comparison. Give BMW 4.5 liters and they will snap your head back with acceleration, Lexus could barely make it up a hill.
Lexus seems to have always focused upon gadgetry and sexy interiors to distinguish themselves. But underneath, you were buying a pretty engineeringly uninspired Toyota. Engines and suspensions were hardly state of the art, unless compared to Buick - and then just barely so. That may be changing, but Lexus milked the market to make the most by offering the least as far as serious innovation and technology throughout the 1990's and early 2000's. And I don't count a car that parallel parks itself as "serious" technology.
I'll give them business credit where due. When Lexus came on the scene, reliability among top European brands was an issue - and their opportunity. But today, with Porsche displacing lexus as #1 on JD Powers and BMW having vastly improved reliability, the competitive marketplace has changed. I know several people who would never have purchased a BMW in the 1980's due to reliability, but would now not "compromise" driving dynamics by buying a Lexus, given BMW's improvements.
I would beg to differ that Lexus has always lagging in the engine technology. When the GS400 was first introduced it may not be the best handling midsize luxury car out there but one thing for sure is it could smoke about any other sedans except the factory tuned ones.
Handling was never Lexus' strong suit but the they did introduce a great handler, the IS300, to compete with the 3-series. Many agreed that the handling aspect of the IS300 is on part with the E46 and with a stronger engine it could be a legit 3-killer. How did the buying public react to the IS300? The IS300 was a magazine comparo darling but just dead awful on the sales chart. Due to that lesson Lexus smartly went back to its traditional philosophy with the new IS350/250. One thing Lexus good at is knowing what do its customers want and they deliver.
BMW scrambled to drop 2 turbos into the I6 after Lexus debut the 2GR-FSE with the IS350. I am glad I choose the IS350 over the first year 330i, otherwise I would have been pissed. The tide has turned, Lexus is on par with the Germans among engine technology and other areas. It still holds the lead in reliability and the only area that it's lagging is handling. Maybe it'll never be BMW but I think give them time they'll at least match MB.
Oh, by the way, you do know that BMW dropped the valvetronic on the twin-turbo I6 right?
PS. The LX450 was last sold on the market as a new model around '96 to '97. That's almost 12 years ago. Please show me a BMW V8 engine (not M-tuned) around that time that can "snap my head back with acceleration".
BMW is building high tech sports cars, with luxury features added-on, for wealthy people, whether they can drive (manual) or can't drive.
I don't expect Lexus to build BMW-level performance cars. They shouldn't mention BMW at all, as they have a totally different mission, and customer base, in life.
Lexus' use of technology is more often applied to reducing engine vibration, seat design, ergonomics, impact absorption, aerodynamics, durability of components, and actual luxury features. It shows whenever you sit in a Lexus.
BMW's investment in chassis design, engine technology, weight distribution, weight reduction, suspenion tuning, and braking systems show up when you drive a BMW.
Apples and Oranges. Coddling or excitement. Both have a successful formula, but crossing the two, in any sense, doesn't make much sense to me.
I'll never see a BMW as luxurious. And may never see a "fun" Lexus.
You'll get your money's worth, either way.
DrFill
Japanese manufacturers have traditionaly been risk adverse when it comes to new technology.
Now, Toyota is pushing that new technology and is paying the same price that other motor companies have paid.
There is a learning curve.
Since the Germans started sooner, they are further along the curve right now.
And you realize that, going back 20 years, there are proportionally more 911's still on the road than virtually any other make/model of car sold in the US, according to the WSJ (using US sales/registration statistics). Lexus wasn't even around back then, but when I checked the stats on my old 1984 Toyota Supra, it was pitifully behind the 911 (approximately 40% still registered, compared to 80%+/-, if I recall correctly). The best US models I saw were the Corvette and Ford pick up truck, both around 50%.
The issue with older Porsche's isn't reliability as much as the cost of routine maintenance. Many US buyers, if they had their preference, would wait until something breaks, rather than pay extra for preventative maintenance. Then they claim, "it isn't reliable". Toyota fought with customers over their well known sludging problem, claiming they didn't chainge the oil frequently enough.
BMW has tackled part of that problem by including maintenance in the purchase price. My 2005 911's first scheduled service was at 2 years/20k miles. I couldn't wait, so I spent $250 for an oil change and inspection after 1 year (thanks to 9.5 quarts of Mobil 1 and a $60 filter).
Given that every car I've ever purchased from 1978 to 2005 was Japanese, you are preaching to the choir about practicality. And my 2002 Honda S2000 was a decent competitor to the 2002 Boxster at 60% of the price. But if you check into it, there is a reason why the 911 is 40+ years old as a model. They rarely break.
This does not surprise me, because 911's are not something most people drive every day!
Puleeze, give me a friggen' break. You are more likely to see a Bigfoot on a logging road than an LX or GX. The GX just happened to be redesigned in 2005 to have a gross vehicle weight of 6,001+ lbs so that it could be written off by all of the lawyers, doctors and investment advisors that needed to "off road" their way to the office.
The term "crossover" shouldn't be used to disparage BMW, Acura, and others from recognizing that you could produce a far superior handling vehicle for the way 99% of Lexus SUV's are being used. And, by the way, the SUV that won the big "off road" challenge a couple of years ago by 4-Wheel Drive magazine - the Porsche Cayenne. But I digress....
The LX450 was last sold on the market as a new model around '96 to '97. That's almost 12 years ago.
Yes, Lexus rebadged the LX450 the LX470 - so please explain to me why, as late as 2005, the Lexus LX 470 and GX470 still used a virtually undchanged engine from the 15+ year old 4.5 liter that was in the 1980's Landcruiser? Lexus claims to have increased displacement to 4.7 liters, but output, engine characteristincs and design were virtually uncahnged. It still had a miserably 235 horsepower (for a 5,500+ lb vehilce), a weak redline that was about 5,000 rpm and the inability to traverse hills without downshifting like crazy and burning barrels of gasoline. This was the ultimate luxo-cruiser SUV with an engine that, I repeat, was an embarrassment. Even in the lighter weight GX470, performance was anemic. It wasn't until 2006 that Lexus revised the actual engine design from the stone ages, increased output to 275 horsepower and gave it the cpability to rev past 3,000 rpm without sounding like it was going to blow up. If you want to claim any kind of "off road truck capability" as the excuse, you are increasing the horse___t, along with Lexus. BMW's 3.0 liter V6 engine still outperforms the thirstier Lexus V8, and the 4.4/4.6 V8's are in a completely different league.
I'm not speculating on this. My wife and I were given a 2005 GX470 to drive for a weekend before we bought an MDX and, as much as I liked the interior of the Lexus and the idea of a big tax write-off, we couldn't deal with the Isuzu Trooper like handling and weak acceleration. For 2006, Lexus noticably improved on the latter.
When the GS400 was first introduced it may not be the best handling midsize luxury car out there but one thing for sure is it could smoke about any other sedans except the factory tuned ones.
I think you are "smoking" something on this one. The GS400 was no match for the 540i in any category. It could barely outaccelerate my 1995 Maxima V6 5-speed manual and, RWD advantages notwithstanding, the FWS Maxima outhandled the GS400. Speaking of which, Nissan had far superior engine technology in the Maxima in 1995 than anything by Toytoa or Lexus in the Camry/ES or other models. BMW/NIssan/Porsche dominate Wards 10 Best Engines list. Lexus, to my knowlede, has never made it on the list period.
As for the original IS300, it may have been an O.K. car, but it looked like it was styled by 17 year olds for 16 year olds.
Lexus does waht it does, very well. You will just never convince me that they have, at least to date, displayed a fraction of performance technology that Honda/Acura has. Let alone, BMW.
Might as well call it "The 2nd Best Report". Or "The Still Not Lexus Report."
DrFill
16,800 miles since September 23, 2005. During that time, 3,800 miles on my Acura TL 6-speed.
Granted, I may not be "most people", but the 911 isn't a pansy garage queen.
And, I grant you, that is what Lexus does well. They have taken basic, albeit uninspired, engine and suspension technology, made it nearly bulletproof, and sheathed it in a luxurious interior.
Unfortunately, they also OWN top spot on the list of Doctor recommended cures for insomnia, and the big Lexus rivals Cadillac as the most preferred in the "old to dead" demographic.
Yes, Lexus rebadged the LX450 the LX470 - so please explain to me why, as late as 2005, the Lexus LX 470 and GX470 still used a virtually undchanged engine from the 15+ year old 4.5 liter that was in the 1980's Landcruiser? Lexus claims to have increased displacement to 4.7 liters, but output, engine characteristincs and design were virtually uncahnged. It still had a miserably 235 horsepower (for a 5,500+ lb vehilce), a weak redline that was about 5,000 rpm and the inability to traverse hills without downshifting like crazy and burning barrels of gasoline. This was the ultimate luxo-cruiser SUV with an engine that, I repeat, was an embarrassment. Even in the lighter weight GX470, performance was anemic.
The LX470 puts out over 270HP. And was voted best of breed by C&D in 2000, when it was released.
The GX470 does 0-60 in 7.7. And was call by C&D "Another Grand Slam by Lexus". 'Nuff said.
The 4.7 is still in the new Tundra. And having driven the Tundra dozens of times, I can personally attest the 4.7 is no slouch, and shows why it's still worth using. I would like a 5.0 with 325HP myself, and I'm sure Toyota will get to it, hopefully by 2010 for the Tundra mid-gen facelift.
I think you are "smoking" something on this one. The GS400 was no match for the 540i in any category. It could barely outaccelerate my 1995 Maxima V6 5-speed manual.
I believe what Lou was refering to was the impressive laurels the 98 GS400 accrued when compared directly to the E420 and 540i.
Called a "Velvet Rocket" by MT, it won a 5 car shootout, and beat all comers outright in MT. 5.7 0-60 times beat the Germans, which were still over 6 seconds with slushboxes (The tested 540i Sport, with a 6-speed stick, hit 5.5 to win acceleration, but MT said an Auto 540 would've fallen into 2nd behind the new Lexus.)
C&D gave the GS a controversial 2nd place behind the 540i in a 6 car comparison in 1997, with the GS beating the BMW in most objective performance tests. they just couldn't bring themselves to have a Lexus beat a BMW in a performance test.
C&D did throw Lexus a bone, and tried to save face, by saying of the GS400 compared to the 540i "The scores were so close, you could call this a tie. The GS400 is that good!" :shades:
A 95 Maxima 5-speed 0-60 in 6.7, according to Nissan.
Not to let facts screw up your argument.
As you were.
DrFill
Please the GX and LX are not serious off-roaders. They have Low range but beyond that they are about worthless off-road.
Oh, by the way, you do know that BMW dropped the valvetronic on the twin-turbo I6 right?
Any kind of variable valve timing or Valve lift technology is kind of pointless on a forced induction engine. Jag and LR remove their variable lift and valve timing from the supercharged versions of their engines as well.
How do you figure that? Forced induction just increases the density of the air charge; it doesn't modify any of the factors that prompted the development of variable timing and lift.
The LX470 put out 235 horsepower as late as 2005. It wasn't until 2006 that they increased output with some variable valve type technology. And the LX470 was introduced well before 2000.
Not to let the facts screw up your counterargument. :P
I can't think of a forced induction engine that uses variable lift/timing. I know the new MINI Cooper uses valvetronic but I can't find if the S uses it as well.
There's plenty of them, but they're all Japanese (except for the Solstice/Sky turbo and maybe some of the Opel/Saab turbos we don't get here).
Ok the RDX has I-VTEC and a turbocharger but that is all I can find so far.
DrFill
That doesn't surprise me either since the 911 is considered as an icon so many owners are willing to keep it for a long time. Comparing how many old 911 and Lexus on the street is like comparing apples to oranges.
A Babe Ruth signed baseball I'll keep it for a long time, a habitat1 signed baseball...not so much.
Apples to oranges my man.
And, by the way, the SUV that won the big "off road" challenge a couple of years ago by 4-Wheel Drive magazine - the Porsche Cayenne. But I digress....
Did that Cayenne went up against the LX and Range Rover or was it pitted against other luxury crossovers?
3.0 liter V6 engine still outperforms the thirstier Lexus V8, and the 4.4/4.6 V8's are in a completely different league.
BMW's 3.0 can't out perform the Lexus truck V8 unless it has 2 turbos in there. Lexus' V6 out performs both the turbo-charged or NA BMW I6. So what's your point? Granted the LX has been on the market for too long but the new LX570 is coming this fall packing 381 HP and 401 lb-ft of torque. Still a embarrassment? I don't think so. The new Lexus 4.6L V8 is also up there with the 5.0 BMW V8, you might have to do better if you want to bash Lexus. Hint: pick on the handling, since that's where all Lexus bashers go...
My wife and I were given a 2005 GX470 to drive for a weekend before we bought an MDX
I assume all your test drive was done "on-road". Yup. Case closed. Body-on-frame truck vs. unibody crossover, good comparison there you got, Mr. Habitat.
I think you are "smoking" something on this one.
I think you are smoking something stronger than I am...
The GS began production in the JZS160 body style on August 4, 1997 and was officially launched in 1998. Answering customer requests for more power, the American market GS 400 was equipped with a UZ-series V8 that produced 300 hp (224 kW) and 310 ft·lbf of torque. Edmunds.com reported a 0-60 time of 5.4 seconds for this 3693-pound sedan. The GS 300 was also offered once again and featured a slightly revised version of the last generation's 3.0 L inline-6 now producing 225 hp (165 kW) and 225 ft·lbf of torque. The GS 300 was quoted with a 7.6 second 0-60 time. Both models featured a 5-speed automatic with the GS 400 receiving steering wheel shift buttons. Again, no turbo models were offered outside Japan. The 0-60 time of the GS 400 prompted Lexus to claim that the GS was the world's fastest production sedan.[2]
Source: Lexus GS
Can your 1995 Maxima do 0-60 in 5.4 seconds? I don't think so. Remember the 5.4 secs was recorded back in 1997 and that's 10 years ago. Show me a BMW 5-series or MB E-class that can do the same back then. That's right, you can't.
So who's smoking what now?
Lexus does waht it does, very well. You will just never convince me that they have, at least to date, displayed a fraction of performance technology that Honda/Acura has. Let alone, BMW.
If in performance you meant handling then I agree. However, the IS350 smoked every other sedans in its class when debut 2 years ago. BMW scrambled to drop 2 turbos into the I6 and that's why the E90 330i was only on the market for 1 MY. The new Nissan 3.5L VQ is no match to the Lexus 2GR-FSE and most car mags agree with me. Unless Acura converts to RWD or RWD-biased SH-AWD I don't considered them as a serious player in the luxury market. The current Honda/Acura V6 is no match against even the VQ, nevertheless the 2GR.
Geez...
At least when I am bashing GM I use some real, hardcore facts.
I always find it interesting to compare the JD Power initial quality ratings with their longer 3 and 5 year ratings.
Not interesting enough to actually go look up the long term ratings for Lexus and Porsche though.
Power is but a piece of the puzzle.
Oh...if life were only that simple, the domestics wouldn't be knee-deep in it, like they are now. :P
DrFill